Georgia Gould
MP for Queen's Park and Maida Vale · Labour · United Kingdom
“The Children’s Wellbeing and Schools Act also replaces sections 10 and 11 and of the Education and Inspections Act with an amended section 10.”
“The current system means that there are real geographical discrepancies, and sometimes there is not a trust available to set something up quickly, so we want local authorities to have the flexibility to respond quickly to demands and to offer that provision where it is needed. The hon.”
“I thank Members for the range of important questions, although I think they are broader than the individual draft regulations we are discussing today. I will start with the question about special places in specialist schools and how we can ensure that there is consistency.”
“We want to have really strong standards and consistency in critically important areas. We know some of the real challenges that young people face in misinformation and the need for digital literacy in a changing world.”
“The statutory instrument makes consequential amendments arising from those provisions. The amendments, which are to both primary and secondary legislation, are necessary to ensure that references to the legislative framework for opening new schools are correct and consistent across the statute book, and to update provisions to ensure that…”
“Currently, where a new maintained school replaces an independent school, a teacher of the independent school transferring under transfer of undertakings legislation to the new school may choose to retain their existing terms and conditions or choose to opt in to the schoolteachers’ pay and conditions document.”
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“I think it is just very important that we hear from parents. When I spoke to them yesterday, one of the things they said was that it is critical that they hear from the Government that we understand the challenges that they face before we move forward. There is also some amazing practice going on, and we heard about it today: schools that are supporting children and young people, and teaching assistants who are investing in that support. We heard the wonderful example from Colne Valley, where neurodiversity training has been put in place.”
“I am going to make progress. This morning I visited a school that is doing amazing work to provide support in the classroom, in mainstream provision, for children and young people. The children I meet have big dreams and deserve the chance to thrive. The Secretary of State for Education has made it absolutely clear that under this Government no child will be left behind, and we will reform the system so that children with special educational needs are at the heart of the education system. There will always be a legal right to additional support for children and young people with special educational needs. As I approach this new role, there are a number of principles guiding me. First, the voices of children, young people and their families, and of teachers and those supporting them, must be at the forefront of reform.”
“I will make progress, because we do not have much time. Over the last year, the Secretary of State and my predecessor have spent a huge amount of time with families to make sure that their voices are heard. Secondly, children should get support when they need it, as early as possible.”
“It is about play, it is about youth clubs, it is about local health services; it is about workplaces that celebrate neurodiversity. We are talking about one in five of our young people: we all know somebody who has special educational needs, and those individuals bring so much creativity and so many ideas.”
“I heard the hon. Member introduce his Bill. He spoke so powerfully about his personal journey, and this House is a better place because he is in it. The points he raised about investing in teacher training across the board are critical and have to be part of the future. The second principle, which we have heard about from almost every speaker, is that children need to get support when issues first appear; early intervention has to be the basis of reform. Thirdly, children with special educational needs should not have to go miles away from their families and communities to get the right support. We need to invest in support within our communities. Finally, support for young people to thrive is not just for schools. I have heard the words “collaboration” and “co-design” so many times in this debate.”
“I have 29 seconds left. It is really important to acknowledge that in 14 years of local government I saw so many families let down. My commitment, as we move forward, is to work with the parents who have turned up and the parents who signed the petition to get this right for families and to set out reforms that will really transform young people’s lives.”
“83A(7)), That the following provisions shall apply to the House of Lords (Hereditary Peers) Bill for the purpose of supplementing the Order of 15 October 2024 (House of Lords (Hereditary Peers) Bill: Programme): Consideration of Lords Amendments (1) Proceedings on consideration of Lords Amendments shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion three hours after their commencement. (2) The Lords Amendments shall be considered in the following order: 1, 2, 3, 8, 4, 5, 6, 7 and 9. Subsequent stages (3) Any further Message from the Lords may be considered forthwith without any Question being put. (4) Proceedings on any further Message from the Lords shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion one hour after their commencement. —(Anna McMorrin.) Question agreed to.”
“I am grateful to the hon. Member for North Dorset (Simon Hoare) for bringing forward this matter, as well as for speaking so powerfully and so concisely on the issue, and to Mr Speaker for granting a debate on this important principle. The Government recognise and value the critical role that Parliament plays in scrutinising our work. Should the House agree to the motion, the Government will await the work of the Committee of Privileges with interest. Question put and agreed to. House of Lords (Hereditary Peers) Bill: Programme (No. 2) Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No.”
“For too long, residents and frontline workers have had to navigate fragmented and underfunded services, and have had to arm up for battle when using public services. From our Best Start strategy to new neighbourhood health centres, we are reforming public services, so that money is invested in prevention, services are designed with and for local communities, and people always come first.”
“As my hon. Friend has set out, since Labour came to power, we have seen waiting lists continue to fall, with our 2 million new appointments, but the Scottish people have not seen the same benefits. Luckily, though, they do not need to wait long to vote for a Labour Government with a plan to change that.”
“One of the best parts of my job is to travel round the country and see the amazing work that local public service partnerships are doing. Our test, learn and grow programme has been set up to get behind frontline innovators and to trial new approaches. This brings together central Government with those on the frontline—local councils and communities—so that we can learn from what is working and then scale it up to improve things for people.”
“As I said, one of the best parts of my job is getting to visit amazing projects like that partnership, and I would be delighted to see the work that is happening there. Our missions are not just for Government but for the whole country. We need councils, universities and communities to come together, so that partnership is incredibly important. As I set out, the test, learn and grow programme is about finding those innovators and partnerships and spreading great practice. I look forward to hearing more about it.”
“Two weeks ago, we set out our plans to make sure that the billions this Government are investing in roads, hospitals and railways will mean good jobs, skills and opportunities in communities around the UK. Our plans will recognise industries that are critical to our national security, protecting UK resilience in sectors such as steel and energy. Creating high-quality British jobs and boosting skills in local communities will be key requirements for companies to win contracts for large infrastructure projects.”
“I thank my hon. Friend for his continued advocacy for greater transparency in procurement, which we know delivers better value for money and better services. We have set up the central digital platform, which now holds over 4,000 pipeline notices, and we will soon make available a data platform that will facilitate detailed analysis of SME participation. We expect that to be available to procurement teams soon, and we are scoping how we will make it available to the wider public.”
“I was deeply sorry to hear about Andy’s circumstances, and I will of course meet my hon. Friend to discuss this case. I have asked to be kept personally updated on the case following the letter from my hon. Friend. The Cabinet Office continues to stress the importance of contractual performance to the MyCSP administrator.”
“While I cannot comment on the individual procurement, I can say that we are changing procurement rules to strengthen the focus on British jobs and skills and to support British industries critical to our national security like energy. We are consulting on this at the moment, and I would be more than happy to meet my hon. Friend and the company to discuss this further.”
“I absolutely agree that we need to support SMEs, which is why we set targets for all Departments on SME and voluntary, community and social enterprises spend. It is why we are reviewing the rules to make it easier for SMEs to get on to Government contracts, and why we are consulting on new plans to set targets for the entire public sector on SME spend.”
“I really welcome the House’s continuing enthusiasm and support for procurement. We have listened to that and are taking it seriously, which is why we set out, as I said a couple of weeks ago, further changes to procurement rules to respond to all those points about supporting SMEs, supporting British jobs and supporting British skills.”
“We have set out plans to strengthen and streamline social values, so that we are absolutely clear about the expectations on businesses to support jobs, skills and opportunities—namely opportunities for our young people to get into good quality work in communities like my hon. Friend’s.”
“The Government are determined to deliver high-quality public services and better value for money for the taxpayer. We have committed to introducing a public interest test to assess whether expiring contracts could provide better outcomes and better value in-house, and that was included in the national procurement policy statement.”
“In accordance with section 1 of the Parliamentary Commissioner Act 1967, and section 1 of the Health Service Commissioners Act 1993, I commend Paula Sussex to the House for the role of Parliamentary Commissioner for Administration and Health Service Commissioner for England.”
“On behalf of this House, I praise her for her hard work over the past 12 months, and wish her all the best for her future as the PHSO’s chief executive officer. Following the formation of a new Parliament, the process of recruiting a new ombudsman was relaunched in January. I thank the House and the recruitment panel, particularly the chair, Liam Laurence Smyth, for their speed in conducting the recruitment; they made a recommendation to the Prime Minister in March. The Government support Paula Sussex’s appointment to the role, as we believe that she has the ability and experience to lead the PHSO, bringing insights from her time in the public and private sectors.”
“I beg to move, That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty, praying that His Majesty will appoint Paula Sussex CBE to the offices of Parliamentary Commissioner for Administration and Health Service Commissioner for England. The Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman has an important role in holding public service providers to account and achieving justice for complainants. I thank Rebecca Hilsenrath KC, who stepped in as acting ombudsman following Sir Rob Behrens’s departure. She provided leadership and stability for the PHSO, ensuring a continued focus on the experience of its service users, while considering how to maximise the impact of the organisation in improving public services for the long term.”
“I will respond briefly to echo the thanks to the hon. Member for North Dorset (Simon Hoare) for his role on the panel, which was critical. It is important that this role has cross-party support and that this appointment has the confidence of the House, to ensure that this important role can be fulfilled with rigour and independence, that our citizens always have a voice in public services and that public service providers are accountable to Parliament. I recommend this appointment to the House. Question put and agreed to.”
“When we came into power, the Government commissioned a comprehensive state of digital government review, which demonstrated just how far we have to go. It set out a picture of fragmentation, silos and a failure to maximise the opportunity of data to personalise and target services. The average UK adult citizen spends a week and a half dealing with government bureaucracy every year. The Government have set out a plan to change this, and we are taking wide-ranging action: from creating the national data library to increasing the number of services that use gov.uk One Login.”
“I would be delighted to meet the hon. Member. I am very passionate about this. In local government, I saw how difficult it was for frontline staff who were not able to get data from different services. Most importantly, citizens are having to tell their story to and share data with multiple services, which causes confusion. We are working very closely with the new digital centre of government on this, and we have an action plan to address it. However, I always welcome new ideas, because this could be really transformative for citizens.”
“The two issues are completely linked. To use the opportunities of AI, which are enormous, to personalise services and target prevention, we need to have a clear data picture. We need to be able to bring data together across different levels of Government. There is a huge amount of data in Government, but some of it is stuck in legacy systems and not shared properly. This is the absolute bedrock of the opportunity around AI, so it is something we are very committed to, especially working with local government.”
“I appreciate this collegiate style of discussion. There is a huge amount to do here. When we came into power, we set out, as I said, a review of the picture that showed just how hard it is for citizens to negotiate. When moving home, one has to announce it to 10 different organisations using different public services, sometimes 40 different services, so we need to change. We have not waited for the review. We have already set out our own plans, but we will of course respond to external reviews that come forward.”
“I welcome the House’s continuing passion for procurement, and my hon. Friend has helped to lead the way in this area at Hammersmith and Fulham council. I have seen how much energy there is in local government to use procurement to deliver jobs and growth. The Government are working on plans to allow local authorities to reserve contracts for local employers. Public procurement can be a key tool in driving growth and supporting businesses across the economy. Our new national procurement policy statement looks to maximise spend with small businesses and asks contracting authorities to work collaboratively on local and regional growth plans.”
“Growth is the No. 1 mission for this Government. We have learned from local authorities such as Hammersmith and Fulham, which built economic value into procurement. The Procurement Act 2023 makes new tools available, but what is critical is how they are used to deliver innovation and growth. The Government will be consulting on new plans to set targets for small and medium-sized enterprise use for the wider public sector. We have delivered extensive training and developed new communities of practice to help make the most of this huge opportunity. As my hon. Friend has said, much of this is about culture and the use of the tools. We will be working with local authorities around the country to deliver on this enormous opportunity.”
“The guidance we put into the national procurement policy statement makes it clear that we want to deliver best value for money, which means not just cost but ensuring that we support growth and local suppliers. That allows local authorities to make decisions on what will create jobs and best opportunities for communities in the procurement of food.”
“We know of the brilliant craftsmanship of the Stoke-on-Trent industry. We are committed to supporting British businesses and ensuring that they have the best chance of winning public contracts. Our new national policy statement asks contracting authorities to maximise spend with small and medium-sized enterprises and to support our industrial strategy.”
“If we discover encouragement, that would likely form part of the PSFA’s investigation into a fraud case, and the Crown Prosecution Service could pursue that offence using the evidence collected. Whether action can be taken will depend on the facts of the case, the evidence available and whether the necessary standard of proof can be met. Crucially, new clause 2 would reduce the maximum sentence available for Fraud Act and conspiracy offences from 10 years to seven years, for fraud against public authorities only.”
“The Bill uses those offences—they do not need to be written into it to have effect—and we have given assurances on that during a previous debate. Consequently, there does not need to be a specific fraud offence for public authorities. Assisting and encouraging fraud against a public authority, as is mentioned in the new clause, is already an offence. The offences of “encouraging or assisting”, as set out in sections 44 to 46 of the Serious Crime Act 2007, apply to fraud offences as they do to other crimes. Again, that does not need to be written into the Bill to have effect. The Public Sector Fraud Authority will be able to investigate cases in which it appears that someone has encouraged someone else to commit fraud.”
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Western. I appreciate the intention of the hon. Member for South West Devon in tabling the new clause—that is, to take fraud against the public sector seriously—but the Government plan to resist it, because we believe that the proposals are already covered and that it could lead to unintended consequences that do the opposite of what she wants. As the hon. Member said, new clause 2 would create a new offence of fraud against a public authority. We believe that that could have a detrimental effect and is unnecessary, because fraud is already an offence, and this is clearly defined in clause 70 as offences under the Fraud Act 2006 and the common law offence of conspiracy to defraud.”
“As I set out, these measures are already covered, and the proposals would potentially reduce sentences from 10 years to seven years. I am sure that the hon. Member does not want those who defraud the public sector to get lower sentences than those who would defraud the private sector.”
“I am more than happy to have a further meeting about how we can take action on that. We believe that we can do that using the existing powers, but we would welcome further discussion. The PSFA and DWP will be concentrating on the provisions in the Bill that are intended to effectively address and combat fraud through them. I therefore ask the hon. Member for South West Devon to withdraw the motion.”
“For example, under new clause 15, a conviction related to section 112 would carry a maximum period of custody of three months, compared with a maximum of 10 years under the existing Fraud Act. As a result, and this is similar to what I set out on new clause 2, rather than strengthening our position to respond to such types of fraud, new clause 15 could result in a weakened response. Although new clauses 2 and 15 are well intended, neither new clause is needed as the existing legal framework already provides sufficient measures to address this issue, and introducing additional subsections would only complicate the legal landscape. However, I very much heard the points about the research being done by the hon. Member for South West Devon and the importance of tackling those who set up sites to try to defraud the public sector.”
“Those existing laws are robust and comprehensive, ensuring that individuals who provide guidance on how to commit fraud, or encourage others to do so, can be prosecuted effectively. Introducing additional subsections to the 1992 Act would therefore be redundant and unnecessary. Secondly, the new clause could potentially complicate the legal landscape. Adding new subsections to the 1992 Act risks creating overlapping and conflicting provisions that could lead to confusion and inefficiency in enforcement. It is essential to maintain clarity and coherence in our legal system to ensure that justice is served effectively. Moreover, the new clause would mean that those convicted of a new offence would face a less punitive sentence than they would under existing laws.”
“New clause 15 seeks to introduce an offence of encouraging or assisting others to commit fraud by adding new subsections to sections 111A and 112 of the Social Security Administration Act 1992. Sections 111A and 112 set out two specific offences related to benefit fraud. Although the intention behind the new clause is commendable, I believe that it is not needed for several reasons, which are similar to those I have set out on new clause 2. First, the existing legal framework already provides sufficient measures to tackle fraud of this nature. The Fraud Act 2006 and the Serious Crime Act 2007 make it a criminal offence to encourage or assist any other offence, including when it relates to fraud. There are also existing laws that serve a similar purpose for Scotland.”
“We already have effective fraud legislation. The issue that the Bill seeks to address is that we do not currently have the resources or the powers to properly investigate that or to recover money. We believe that the suggestions that are being made would have the unintended consequences of reducing the seriousness of the offence, in the way that I have set out. The proposals also omit the option available in the Fraud Act offences and the common law conspiracy offence for the Crown court to impose an unlimited fine instead of, or as well as, a term of imprisonment. Again, that weakens the response. That is contrary to the Government’s intention with the Bill that strong action should be taken against public sector fraud.”
“New clause 13 is therefore already provided through the Bill for the PSFA and through existing legislation for the DWP—section 71 and section 71ZE of the Social Security Administration Act 1992 to be specific—allowing them operational flexibility to recover money in the most effective and efficient way to return money to the public purse. An amendment is not required to do that.”
“That is an order providing that the payable amount is recoverable “under section 85 of the County Courts Act 1984, or…otherwise as if it were payable under an order of the court.” Section 85 of the County Courts Act also refers to the use of the procedure in schedule 12 to the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007 to recover the money. That would enable the PSFA to seek enforcement of a debt by applying for a warrant of control in the county court, enabling a court enforcement officer to seize and sell goods to satisfy the debt. That ensures that the PSFA is able to pursue recovery through the most appropriate and effective mechanisms.”
“This is similar to the previous new clause we discussed. We have a lot of sympathy with the points set out. We want to ensure that we recover money, whether it is fraud against the public sector more widely or fraud against the DWP, but we believe that that is already covered in the Bill and I will run through why. Clause 16 clarifies that the PSFA is able to seek alternative civil recovery through the civil courts, in addition to the direct deduction orders and deduction from earnings orders in the Bill. It confirms that the PSFA will be able to apply to the county court for a recovery order.”
“The DWP has established processes by which members of the public and staff can report suspected benefit fraud. Members of the public can report fraud online at gov.uk, by phone or by post, while DWP staff follow clear internal guidance and processes. Given the intent to maintain the focus of this legislation, the recent work by the National Audit Office, the existing DWP processes and the steps the PSFA is taking to continue to improve the whistleblowing offer for public sector fraud, I will resist new clause 16.”
“On the review of the existing processes, the key findings of the recent NAO publication related to the need to increase awareness of the channels for whistleblowing, to improve the experience of whistleblowers and to ensure that lessons are learned, as the hon. Lady set out. In the light of the NAO report, and with the intention of opening up as many avenues as possible for the reporting of public sector fraud, the PSFA will explore with the Department for Business and Trade whether it would be appropriate to add the PSFA to the list of prescribed organisations. That would go alongside the existing ability to raise fraud within a public sector body or Department. We will also use the findings of the report, as well as the NAO’s good practice guide to whistleblowing in the civil service, to inform our approach.”
“The list comprises bodies and individuals to whom making a disclosure qualifies the individual who makes the disclosure for legal protections under the Employment Rights Act 1996—for instance, protection against being dismissed by their employer for the disclosure. Whistleblowers can report concerns about public sector fraud to bodies such as the NAO’s Comptroller and Auditor General, the director of the Serious Fraud Office, the Auditors General for Wales and for Scotland, the NHS Counter Fraud Authority and various other bodies listed on gov.uk. The NAO report that the hon. Lady referred to set out that between 2019 and 2022 fraud one of the most common concerns raised—I think it accounted for 40% of concerns.”
“I thank the hon. Lady for raising the critical issue of whistleblowing. I assure her of how seriously the Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions—my hon. Friend the Member for Stretford and Urmston—myself, and both Secretaries of State take the issue of whistleblowing. I hope, as I set out our responses to the NAO report and our wider work, to offer the reassurance that the Opposition are looking for. When it comes to internal and external fraud against the public sector, Government Departments are responsible for their own whistleblowing arrangements and for overseeing arrangements in their arm’s length bodies. For example, the Department for Business and Trade publishes and regularly updates its guidance, “Whistleblowing: list of prescribed people and bodies”, which details who individuals can raise a concern with.”
“Finally, clause 104 is straightforward and confirms that the short title of the Act will be the Public Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) Act 2025, to summarise the intent of the Bill captured in the long title. Having outlined the main provisions in clauses 99 to 104, I commend them to the Committee.”
“Legislative consent is required for Wales for some parts of the part 1 provisions. The provisions in part 2 apply to England, Wales and Scotland in relation to reserved matters. As the Committee is aware, the UK Government do not generally legislate on devolved matters without the consent of the relevant devolved Governments. We have written to our counterparts in Scotland and Wales, and engagement with both remains ongoing, to seek legislative consent from Wales on the part 1 provisions that interact with Welsh competence and from Scotland on the part 2 provisions that interact with Scottish competence. Clause 103 is required to enable the provisions in the Bill to be implemented. It sets out how the Bill’s provisions will be commenced.”