Peter Lamb
MP for Crawley · Labour · United Kingdom
“In these situations, as a direct result of the Treasury not having revisited those rates over the last 12 years, airlines and other organisations are able to justify under-compensating their staff by pointing to what is essentially Government guidance.”
“I take that fully on board. I am delighted that the hon. Member is here for this debate. There are cities in Europe where the situation is even more pronounced than in Amsterdam. In Budapest, the total residual rate set in 2013 and unchanged since 2014 has been eaten away by a compound inflation rate of 67% in Hungary.”
“Those were first published on the Government’s website in 2013, with unique rates produced for almost every one of the world’s major cities, setting out the average cost of drinks, breakfast, lunch and dinner, a night in a hotel room and even the journey from hotel to office.”
“While simply increasing the 2013 rates in line with inflation would be welcome, I hope the Treasury takes the opportunity to undertake a full review of how subsistence rates can be systematically improved.”
“The issue has a real and detrimental impact on the working lives of cabin crew. A constituent of mine working for an airline operating out of Gatwick airport was blunt about this, telling me that the fact that the rates are so far behind reality means that they have been forced to “miss meals” while abroad for work.”
“Despite the time and effort put into producing those bespoke rates, they have been upgraded significantly only once in the past 13 years—in October 2014, a year after they were first produced—and that only included a fraction of the cities listed.”
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“Advertisers must be made aware that part of what they are paying for when they advertise on Facebook is the maintenance of animal abuse networks. I hope advertisers think more carefully about that in the future.”
“Although that is clearly illegal already, the current requirements on social media companies to act are insufficient. I will not burden the House by informing hon. Members of the things that I now know about what happens to those monkeys; all I can say is that after my constituents left, I spent some minutes dealing with the tears about what had happened to those monkeys. We must do better around this, and I very much hope that moving forward we are able to do so. I enthusiastically support the Bill, but we cannot rest on our laurels. Meta must be made to answer for not acting to bring an end to animal abuse on its networks and for its active profiting from the advertising that appears on those networks.”
“In addition, there are far too many groups online that are dedicated to animal abuse. Constituents of mine have attempted to shut down such groups, but rather than being supported by social media companies in trying to address the problems, they have instead found themselves reported by the perpetrators of the abuse and have faced having their own accounts shut down and being left without the support they need to bring the networks of abuse to an end. The worst examples of that type of animal abuse that I am aware of were brought up with me in a constituency surgery, and they relate to the torture of baby monkeys, which are chosen because when they are put in a baby grow, people can convince themselves that they are a baby.”
“We are a nation of animal lovers, and we should feel proud that the legislative framework in this country is already world-leading. Despite all the measures we have in place, I think Members would agree, given the range of correspondence we get from our constituents, that there are probably more separate campaigns on animal welfare than on any other policy area—that has certainly been my experience. It is important that we do not rest on our laurels. We must accept that the job is not done and that, as technology moves things forward, additional measures will need to be put in place to improve animal wellbeing. The issue of social media and animal abuse online has been raised in the debate, and the hon. Member for Winchester outlined the role that influencers have to play.”
“Crawley constituency is home to Gatwick airport, and its animal reception centre gives people the important ability to relocate with their pets and also to bring more exotic animals into the United Kingdom. Local authorities also have a significant role to play in these processes. During my time as a councillor, I saw a number of requests for permits for exotic animals, resulting in somewhat confusing conversations about why someone really needed a full-sized crocodile in the middle of a housing estate. That licence was not approved. The hon. Member for Winchester is to be commended for bringing forward this Bill, and the House is privileged to benefit from his extensive professional experience in understanding the important role that the Bill will play in preventing animal abuse and, hopefully, enhancing wider animal welfare.”
“My contribution has been far more limited, in part because of the number of constituency issues that I felt needed to take priority during that time, but I am pleased to be here today to support this measure to improve the wellbeing of animals. I recall a written question my predecessor asked that slightly relates to today’s debate, and it was in relation to the importation and exportation of reindeer from the United Kingdom. Thanks to that question, we are now aware that in 2020 and in 2021, there were two imports of reindeer and one export of reindeer. Presumably, Santa’s sleigh has separate licensing arrangements in the United Kingdom. Import controls have a significant role to play in my constituency.”
“I congratulate the hon. Member for Winchester (Dr Chambers) on bringing forward this Bill. A year on from the general election, it is nice to have one of those days when there is a sequence of Bills that we can all get behind and support and that should do great good for animals in this country and, hopefully, for some of the humans as well. When I gave my maiden speech, I highlighted that my predecessor and I—in keeping with convention, I said something nice about him—are both vegetarians and that animal welfare is a cause that is close to both of our hearts. If we look at most of his time in office, we can see his extensive efforts around animal welfare.”
“My hon. Friend consistently refers to himself as a complete townie—a description that I would apply to myself, too. Of course, the fact that we reside in urban areas does not in any way mean that we are unconcerned by the fortunes of our fellow parliamentarians who represent agricultural areas, or indeed their communities, who play a vital role in sustaining us. The importance of food is something I often speak about, for as much as we focus on whatever the leading industry is of the day, society fundamentally comes down to the question of whether we can feed and house ourselves. Covid in particular drove forward the point that the agricultural system in this country is vital.”
“I need to take that up with Ministers in due course, in order to try to release it for much-needed economic and housing space.”
“Like everyone who has spoken so far, I congratulate the hon. Member for Chester South and Eddisbury (Aphra Brandreth). Much like the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow East (John Grady), Crawley is an urban constituency. On the plus side, I suppose that means I get to avoid the bunfight over who has the best rural constituency—we undoubtedly have the greatest urban constituency. We are not necessarily known for our farms in Crawley—we have fairly tight boundaries around the town—but people are often surprised to find that we do have them, because the safeguarded land between the urban area of the town and the airport is currently only usable as agricultural land. We are not allowed to build anything else there.”
“I regret to say that even if the development consent order came through right now, it would still be farmland, and it is not the site of the proposed runway. That is another of the county’s investments that has not really played out as planned.”
“In the Government’s housing programme, we should look at such areas as brownfield land, on the basis that they are not what natural England is supposed to look like. In many cases, new housing developments will have greater levels of biodiversity. None the less, integrating farming alongside other forms of industry is an important part of developing well-rounded communities. I am familiar with such farms, in part because when I was a member of West Sussex county council many years ago—not enough years ago, given my experience of being a county councillor—we bought one of those farms. It was viewed as a fantastic idea, on the basis that the land would in due course be developed into a runway and we would make an absolute killing out of it.”
“I agree with my hon. Friend. Having any form of green space in close proximity is vital psychologically. We will be discussing the space industry soon, and research undertaken by those in the space industry shows the huge psychological boost that people get from being close to green spaces. It is worth bearing in mind that farming is not necessarily the best representation of natural England. When we in this place talk about housing development, I worry because all too often people become obsessed with the notion that England is supposed to be a land of rolling green fields. The reality is that this country was densely forested, and substantial amounts of biodiversity have been removed to make viable areas that are now open green fields.”
“The impact on our national security was driven home to us during covid, when those who were working throughout the food distribution sector were designated as key workers. It is regrettable that we as a society have rowed back from realising that people in these logistical and retail roles play a far more fundamental role in our day-to-day ability to survive than many of the roles that we choose to promote in society. Ultimately, we need laws that are going to support those in this industry to thrive. In summary, I agree with the proposals in the Bill—and I have attempted to get through my speech at the fastest possible pace to make that point.”
“As far back as the neolithic age, we imported a certain amount of herring from Scandinavia. We saw very clearly in world war two the impact on society as a whole when U-boats were able to disrupt the trade system with the empire and convoys and sailors had to put their lives at risk to ensure that people would survive. This country made efforts at the time, with campaigns encouraging people to grown their own food, and efforts have been made since to try to create a large-enough agricultural sector in the United Kingdom so that we will always be able to feed our population. The development of buffer stock systems over the wars ensured that market fluctuations did not drive people out of business, and they continue to operate on some level to this day.”
“While it is tragic when incidents occur than affect livestock, it is a fundamentally a matter of economics as well—the point I made to my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow East. This is an industry; these are people’s livelihoods, and as we are well aware from debates in this place over the last year, they operate on extremely tight margins, and these people cannot afford the kind of losses that this abuse can cause. It is important that there are systems of regulation in place to enable the industry to operate effectively into the future, because this is not simply about what happens to the industry; agriculture is a matter of national security for all of us. As an island, we have had to learn this lesson many times. As a country, we have always had to import some food from overseas, and there has always been trade.”
“It is really important that the Bill puts in place provisions to enable the police to take appropriate action to monitor, investigate and resolve situations where livestock have been affected. But it is not just about putting provisions in place. We have a habit sometimes of producing regulations but not allocating resource, and if we do not allocate the resource, we do not actually produce any better outcomes. A big concern of mine is that if we create laws that we do not then enforce, we encourage lawlessness in the long run. We should have sufficient regulation that we are capable of enforcing and are prepared to enforce in order to maintain the value and meaning of the law to our constituents. This issue is not just about animal welfare.”
“We are re-consulting on it now, but I suspect it probably still will not be desperately well received. The big problem around these issues is that people love their dogs, and they think their dog could never possibly do anything wrong. I am certain that they are right about that in the overwhelming majority of cases, but there will always be situations where an owner will not be in control, something will happen and others pay the price—people are put at risk or we lose animals. Despite having voluntary provisions in these areas, experiences show that these are insufficient to the task of requiring people to keep their dogs under control. The provisions needs to cover all the cases; they cannot just deal with the odd exception.”
“In one case, a sheep was set on fire while it was still alive. Although the Bill does not directly deal with that, the mentality behind the disrespect of such animals is worthy of note. Far more often, dogs have been set on the animals, or at least people have not been in control of their dogs. We eventually had to remove the sheep entirely from the publicly accessible areas. In fact, we went a bit further than that, because the local authority owns the park. We also had a problem around the main lake, where we kept finding that cygnets and baby ducklings were being mauled by dogs that had come off leash. We took the decision to implement a public space protection order, mandating all dog owners to keep their dogs on leads in those areas to try to reduce the risk to other animals. I will be honest and say that it was not well received.”
“It has just been rebranded as Tilgate zoo, but for a long time it was the nature and rare breeds centre, where I have spent many happy hours in various capacities. It is where I got married; that was a high point. It is where I was bitten by a turkey at the age of two; that was a low point. I am sure it all balances out in the long run. I am afraid we do not have any alpacas or llamas, although I would love us to get some. We are supposed to be rolling out different country exhibits as time goes on. I am reminded that alpacas and llamas are no laughing matter. The Inca empire never developed the wheel; the entire empire was built off the back of alpacas and llamas. As such, they are worthy of great respect. What we did have, however, was sheep and cows, but some pretty harrowing things happened to the livestock at the nature centre.”
“I am fighting my way back to it, Madam Deputy Speaker. Just to address my hon. Friend’s point, having been a local authority leader for quite some time, I understand the pressures on councils to make such investments if their income is being reduced in other ways. Clearly, however, many lessons have had to be learned. I hope that the fund will provide opportunities to use public money far better. If Members will please allow me to get back to the substance of the Bill, I will proceed with all due haste. My constituency is surrounded by fields, and consequently the provisions that affect those areas also affect my constituents. We have livestock in the constituency, particularly in the nature centre in one of the town’s main parks.”
“The more that can be done to make it as easy as possible for people to cast their vote, the greater the likelihood that we will have a more representative sample of electors participating in the system, and that all our different institutions will genuinely represent the views of constituents within the country, and consequentially within policy. I conclude by congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh North and Leith on introducing the Bill. It is an important step towards addressing many of the issues, and I hope further steps will be forthcoming to increase greater accountability and democratic participation in our democracy.”
“One big problem is that if we do not have a viable system to enable people to cast their votes, taking into account people’s differing capacities to attend polling stations, we risk having a bias in the system in favour of one set of groups and against another. Younger able-bodied people and those who are less busy will be in a better position to participate and submit their votes, meaning the electoral system will gradually move in favour of only part of the population. That will deliver outcomes in those elections that may result in the system no longer acting as a voice for the whole of society, only a part of that society. We are all aware of some areas where that already happens, where there is higher turnout by some groups relative to other groups, resulting in them having preferential status in our electioneering.”
“That is a critical part of the UK retaining genuine democratic accountability. The more that can be done to harmonise arrangements across the entire United Kingdom, and to ensure that there is a much simpler approach to people expressing their views to us, the greater the level of confidence in the system. Having two different sets of arrangements around casting votes cannot do much to encourage people to engage in the process. The very low levels of turnout at the last general election, which was a year ago today, suggest that there are issues that need to be addressed in how we try to engage people in the process and encourage them to participate.”
“They should help to enable greater access to absent voting for residents in Scotland and Wales, and hopefully avoid some of the confusion that arises. As a country, we have an increasingly confusing set of election arrangements. Many different types of electoral systems are employed, there are different age arrangements in different places and there are different rules around this, that and the other. When people think that one set of rules is in play and in fact, given a particular context, there is another, that creates growing problems with confidence in our electoral system. Although it is a challenge, it is important to our democracy that, as far as possible, the general public understand how the systems operate, how they select their governors and how they express their voice.”
“I cannot claim to be a fan of the Elections Act 2022, which brought many of the provisions into place. During my time in local government, I was the chair of the working group that the Local Government Association set up to go through the provisions in the Bill, which was assisted by representatives of returning officers and representatives of electoral services administrators. It would be fair to say that their views of most of the provisions were wholly negative in the context of what the Bill sought to do, and many of the arguments did not seem to make a huge amount of sense at the time. None the less, we did produce a number of cross-party conclusions. Regrettably, they were not adopted by the LGA until far too late in the process to have had any viable impact. The aspects in the Bill are, I believe, positive.”
“It highlights how it remains entirely possible for the nations to have the right powers to deliver for their citizens in the right way without having to engage with all the problems that would come with any approach to independence, so long may that approach continue. I am glad to see the consultation that has taken place with devolved Administrations, as I believe consent is an incredibly important part of the process of ensuring that our devolution settlement operates well. I believe that that is critical. Technically, as a unitary system we have parliamentary sovereignty in this place and the UK Parliament can still legislate unilaterally in these areas, but if the devolved settlement is to survive, every part of the United Kingdom must be prepared to play their role in that partnership.”
“That highlighted the importance of producing bodies that could grant that time to consider those issues, and many other issues, on a local basis of what could be the best for residents in those areas. The fact that these measures are coming via a private Member’s Bill continues to highlight the importance of trying to secure better parliamentary time for different parts of the UK for the issues that matter to them, and the importance of devolution to ensuring that matters of relevance for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland—and hopefully for England in due course—are addressed. I note that the amendment continues with that approach, empowering devolved Governments’ ability to implement changes in their own way.”
“I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh North and Leith (Tracy Gilbert) on bringing forward the Bill. Devolution has been an interest of mine for a very long time. It was the topic of my master’s dissertation and my first job outside politics, so I am thrilled to be back dealing with it all again as a member of the Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee. The Bill reminds me that one of the main arguments in favour of introducing devolution was to free up parliamentary time. It was considered bizarre that there we were, in the late 20th century, when devolution was being debated, with feudalism still in Scotland because no Government could possibly find the parliamentary time in the UK Parliament to try to resolve those issues and other issues of concern to residents in Scotland.”
“My hon. Friend has highlighted PACAC’s work scrutinising elections. As Parliament’s Select Committee that is overseeing this part of the process, we produced recommendations on behalf of the United Kingdom as a whole. Given that the Bill will devolve to Scottish Government representatives more delegated legislation powers around implementation, does he think it is important that we have a close link between our own Select Committees and those in Scotland and Wales, to ensure that the right lessons are learned and implemented across the whole United Kingdom, rather than just in any one of its constituent parts?”
“I am very grateful to the hon. Member for his kind remarks. Given that we are talking about democratic engagement and encouraging greater participation, does he agree that there are few better ways of encouraging people to engage with the system than getting them into student politics at university?”
“I am sure my hon. Friend will be aware of the role that the Starlink system has played in Ukraine in enabling the frontline operations of the Ukrainian army. For a very long time, GPS was the main determinator of whether Trident could arrive at its destination. It strikes me that in some ways the technology, our ability to put things into space and what we are putting up there will be what absolutely determines the nature of warfare in the 21st century; does my hon. Friend agree?”
“It does fine work in this area, in addition to general aviation. The Bill manages these risks well. It is a vital part of how to deliver an economy of the future for the UK, and I am delighted to support it.”
“Frankly, huge satellites pose a far greater risk to each other now, through what is known as Kessler syndrome, where one knocks into another and that sets off a cascade that destroys all the satellites in lower orbit, making them completely unusable. The risk of an individual being hit by space debris is less than one in a trillion. Rockets can blow up—they are very similar to missiles—but they tend to be limited to a small range of places, which consistently are remote, and follow a path unlikely to pose a risk to people’s property. The industry has to have an approach to risk, but from an individual perspective, we should not in any way be worried. As has been highlighted, the Civil Aviation Authority, which happens to be based in my constituency, plays a significant role in that.”
“As has been set out, the opportunities presented by space are vast, and legislation needs to keep pace. Ultimately, it is a question of risk. Risk will always be part of the process, as it is in every part of life. It is perfectly possible to manage it in a way that makes it viable to undertake various activities. The Bill, in its four words, sets out to resolve that, addressing liability and insurance issues to enable the viability of the UK’s space industry, which surely will be seen as a vital area of economic growth in times to follow, and of national security, as has been discussed. No doubt, the discussion of risks may arouse concern from the general public, but for the average person, the risks are vanishingly low. Most objects sent up into space are far too small to survive re-entry.”
“I will try to keep my remarks brief. I start by congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow East (John Grady) on making many fine contributions today and still managing to find time to pass his own Bill. This is an area of personal interest to me. I made the terrible choice 20 years ago to go into politics, but most of my family are scientists. My grandfather was Professor Sir Robert Boyd, who is often described as the father of British space science. My dad still works in the sector. The pace at which the industry is progressing is quite remarkable. When SpaceX and Virgin Galactic first came out, I thought to myself, “How on earth are these companies going to make any money at all?” But they could certainly see the future in all of this.”
“I came here today with the intention of voting against the Government on this Bill. I have to say that with clause 5 having been removed —which, as I am sure everyone at home will be delighted to know, completely withdraws PIP from the scope of the Bill—there is consequently nothing to vote on. However, could the Minister give me some comfort by confirming whether or not the Timms review is going to take place within a spending envelope?”
“T3. Crawley is home to the Tinsley House and Brook House immigration removal centres, and their associated scandal. What consideration is being given to the Home Affairs Committee’s inquiry into immigration detention, including ending the use of such centres for indefinite detention?”
“In the ’60s and ’70s, Labour and Conservative Governments removed the Chagossian people from their islands in the interests of national security. In response to written questions, the Foreign Office has confirmed that many certainties that would be required for Chagossians to return to the islands have not been secured as a part of this deal—once more banning them in the name of national security. What should I tell my Chagossian constituents when they ask about the moral basis on which the UK is once again ignoring their right to self-determination while we fight for it in Ukraine for Ukrainians? On what basis can members of British overseas territories feel any certainty that they will retain possession of their islands in the event that our national security interests are suddenly piqued?”
“Network Rail has identified that if the Croydon area remodelling scheme is not undertaken, capacity through East Croydon will be exhausted by 2030, preventing passengers from across much of southern England from being able to travel to London. Given that the Department for Transport has outlined that it is minded to approve Gatwick airport’s capacity increase, almost doubling the overall numbers, so long as 54% of passengers travel by public transport—that is in addition to the 2030 figure—will the Minister outline how it is possible to achieve that without the works being undertaken?”
“T9. What assessment has the Minister made of the merits of increasing local housing allowance to alleviate the pressure on housing authorities?”
“We have talked a lot about demographic challenges in Scotland over the course of the debate, and I do not doubt the concerns about the demography—I have a lot of concerns myself about it. But the biggest factors that affect having children—many couples desperately do want to have more children—are lack of housing, lack of access to childcare and lack of economic opportunity. In the 20 years that the SNP Government have had to do something about this, where is the progress in addressing any of those issues? If they want to look at where the problem with Scotland’s demography lies, they should start by looking in the mirror.”
“In the debate, any number of challenges relating to practicality and principle have been raised about the Bill, and we have repeatedly had SNP Members shouting out, “Put the Bill to a vote, then!” Every time they say that, everyone else in the Chamber hears, “We don’t have any answers to the questions and points that you raise.” Putting the Bill to a vote would be purely symbolism, and not a serious use of the House’s time.”
“The issue is not necessarily about having a border between Northern Ireland and southern Ireland; a border has in effect been put in the Irish sea by the Windsor framework. However, the SNP appears to be calling for a border between Scotland and England, without Scotland re-entering the European Union, leaving Scotland completely isolated. SNP Members talk about the UK’s delusions of grandeur—about us sitting on a few small islands and considering ourselves great—but they want to restrict the lives of Scots to only a part of that island.”
“My hon. Friend, by talking about the minutiae, is doing a fantastic job of showing the vast complexity of one aspect of the SNP trying to cut off the connection between Scotland and the rest of the UK. Does she accept that this is an existential problem for the SNP? Every time they make an argument about the damage caused by losing the integration with the European Union, the infinitely greater combination of interactions between Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom shows that this would be infinitely more damaging to the lives of Scots. This Bill is a fantastic example—”
“I thank the Minister for his response and I am perfectly happy to accept the diligence of the civil service. Regardless, every two years a third of the civil service change their Department and countless more change to unrelated policy roles within each Department. Under the previous Government, policy expertise was completely hollowed out from the civil service. Will the Minister set out how we intend to resolve that to bring policy expertise back into the civil service and ensure we have Government teams capable of delivering for Britain?”
“Can the Minister give an assessment of the potential merits of restricting triable either-way offences to summary trial, except for sentencing?”
“I am very grateful to the Minister for outlining the investment made in the line historically. Indeed, in Gatwick’s case, a very large portion of the investment was made directly by the airport, rather than by the Department for Transport. This debate is about the fact that in shortly over a decade, the line will be completely at capacity, so any train leaving Brighton will be full by the time it arrives at my constituency of Crawley. Not a single passenger from Gatwick will be able to get on the train to London without these improvements, and we are running out of time to secure the change necessary to avoid that outcome.”
“Unfortunately, far too often the system and those we task with running it come under attack, including by those who should know better. Planning is attacked for delays, excessive red tape and perceptions of nimbyism. For every 10 planning applications submitted, nine are approved. That is hardly the sign of a system opposed to development. Where the system struggles is with capacity. The time it takes for a decision to be reached has increased significantly over the years, not just for the application but all the subsequent decisions required for development to commence.”
“Despite the many fine contributions made by Members so far and no doubt many yet to come, planning is quite a dreary subject for many. Indeed, I heard some senior Members of this House privately describe it as such. I can well remember as a young Labour member sitting through constituency party meetings wondering why we were talking about planning for such a long time. Surely, I thought, we should want to focus on education, health and inequality. I am afraid that it took me a long time to realise—until I was one of those dreary people sitting at meetings saying these things—that planning is central not only to each of those issues, but to just about every aspect of Government policy and, indeed, to our daily lives.”