Sir Julian Lewis
MP for New Forest East · Conservative · United Kingdom
“I will share with the House one particular case that is representative of many. My constituent, Mrs Gillian Pothecary, lost her husband almost a year ago. She wrote to me in July about her valiant but so far unavailing quest to obtain a civil service widow’s pension.”
“She said: “Mrs Pothecary’s…case falls under the commitment to be fully resolved by early September at the absolute latest. Capita has assured me that her case is on their escalation log and has been flagged for priority handling.” I rang up Gill just before coming into this debate and—you’ve guessed it, Dame Siobhain—she has not yet recei…”
“As the Minister seems to have run out of supportive Back Benchers, I shall endeavour to ask him a helpful and easy question. Accepting that it will be some years, to put it mildly, before we can eliminate our dependency on oil and gas, does he accept in principle that we are more secure if we exploit our own domestic oil and gas resources…”
“I warmly endorse almost everything the Secretary of State has said today, and I genuinely congratulate him on his appointment. In my first speech in this House almost 30 years ago, I promised to support Labour Governments as long as they supported the nuclear deterrent, the conventional armed forces and NATO.”
“On Monday, just as campaigners from the New Forest and Waterside were handing into Downing Street a 32,000-signature petition against the appalling and unfair outcome of local government reorganisation affecting our area, the welcome announcement was made by the Government that the local government reform proposals for Hampshire and three…”
“We are now in a situation that is worse than that at the height of the cold war, so the comparison we have to make is between what we are spending now and what we spent during the cold war, which was, in modern calculating methods, between 4.5% and 5.1% on defence. So let us not talk about increases to 2.7%.”
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“I absolutely accept what the Minister says. Does he appreciate that with the possibility of President Trump withdrawing some, if not all, American aid to Ukraine, the substitution of a substantial volume of financial support will become essential? That is one reason behind our concern about the assets possibly being seized.”
“It is truly baffling that such decent Ministers have allowed themselves to be bamboozled by the blob. Will the Minister confirm that this is not being rushed through in advance of the takeover of the White House by an incoming President in one month’s time? If, in one month’s time, that new President says that this is a terrible deal, will it be too late to change it?”
“I am tempted to invite the Minister to consult the magnificent Taylor Swift who, apart from all her many other talents, has shown herself pretty shrewd when it comes to preserving the copyright of her material. He puts his finger on the key weakness in all this: no matter what sort of regime we set up, and no matter how many countries we try to get involved in this, surely it will only take one rogue jurisdiction to allow a machine to scrape from everybody else’s material? Then, the internet’s ability for everyone to access it will undermine the regime and, in that way, we face the danger that “Shake It Off” becomes “Rip It Off”.”
“That is one thing that might act as a deterrent to this sort of terrible behaviour by a gilded, self-selecting class of people who think that their institutional importance is greater than truth or justice.”
“I am glad that the Minister chose to reference the excellent work done on behalf of the postmasters by Lord Beamish, who is better known to many of us as our former colleague Kevan Jones. I hope that the whole House will join me in congratulating him on his appointment today as the new Chairman of the Intelligence and Security Committee—an appointment, by the way, by his fellow Committee members, which is exactly as it should be done. May I gently ask the Minister—this may go slightly outwith his Department’s responsibilities—whether there is any news or progress about the question of prosecutions for criminal conspiracy? That is something I have raised before.”
“In of course welcoming the Government’s measures, I note that the Minister referred to the extraordinary interest from the frozen Russian assets. Have the Government permanently set their mind against any possible actual seizure of the assets themselves, perhaps in agreement with other G7 members or EU members?”
“Among some of the excellent contributions we heard in this debate was the remark by the hon. Member for Livingston (Gregor Poynton) that if Putin is not seen to fail in Ukraine, British troops will ultimately end up being involved in some sort of conflict directly. Will the Minister take that message back to his Treasury colleagues? Some of us feel that the arguments about whether 2.5% of GDP should be spent now or in a couple of years’ time rather miss the point, because if we get to the stage where British forces are engaged, we will be spending far more than that. As a Treasury Minister, he should realise that investment in defence in peacetime can deter a much more expensive conflict.”
“Given the very clear similarities between the two democratic institutions covered by the Bill and the office of the ISC and its secretariat, I am confident that that measure would receive the same level of strong cross-party support that has rightly been achieved for this important Bill.”
“However, I hope that the Government have heard the strength of feeling on this issue, which is about upholding the commitments given to Parliament. It is about ensuring that this House is able to hold secret organisations to account, without the independent staff who do that work being subjected to undue pressure, inappropriate influence or improper interference. Following the recent appointment of the new Committee under its highly experienced Chairman, elected today by the other Committee members, Lord Beamish, formerly Kevan Jones MP, with whom I served on the Committee for four years, I trust that the Government will find another suitable legislative vehicle to allow the important changes that we are making to the CPA and the ICRC to be applied to the ISC as well.”
“The Bill gives a clear and welcome signal that the UK is committed to supporting democratic institutions in carrying out their important and independent work. I have been encouraged by the Minister’s positive comments throughout the parliamentary debate regarding the importance of safeguarding the institutional independence of such organisations, and the same is true, indeed essential, for the office of the Intelligence and Security Committee of Parliament. I had hoped, as I said on Second Reading, that the Bill would be expanded to include the ISC, given the very clear read-across. Unfortunately, it has not proved possible to extend the scope of the Bill to cover the ISC within the available timeframe, so I will not repeat my earlier comments.”
“What a pleasure it is to follow so many positive speeches on such a unifying issue. I cannot help but observe that it is singularly appropriate that the amiable Minister should be making his last contributions before Christmas on this issue rather than the more fractious one earlier of the future of the Chagos islands. Right hon. and hon. Members may recall that I spoke on Second Reading in support of the very sensible changes that the Bill will make to the status of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association and the International Committee of the Red Cross. By giving each organisation the status of a body corporate, the Bill ensures that the independence of their staff is sufficiently protected, and that the staff are able to continue with their work unhindered.”
“The Secretary of State says in her statement: “Research given to the ombudsman shows only around a quarter of people who are sent unsolicited letters actually remember receiving and reading them.” I would like to know the terms of that research. Did it, for example, say on the envelope, “Important financial information affecting your pension”? If something like that were on an envelope, I think that there would be a very different response rate. Given that she is having trouble accepting that people look at serious letters that really affect them, perhaps the Chancellor could use some of her ability to get these messages across, as was so successful in the case of advising pensioners that they would be losing the winter fuel allowance.”
“I said at the beginning that I was encouraged to take part in this debate by the hon. Member for Battersea, who I regard as a personal friend. I find the way that she copes with her eye disability absolutely inspiring. I speak from a little personal knowledge, because when I was an undergraduate I lost 18 months after a severe allergic reaction to some eyedrops, which prevented my being able to read. When one is a student at university that is a bit of a problem—”
“Victims of disability hate crime, discrimination, or sexual violence can have their experiences compounded by the double or triple discrimination that they face as women, as people of colour or for some other identifying factor, but there are charities led by disabled people who can provide expert advice and information about how better to support disabled people who are at risk of harm. I hope the Minister will say something about how his Government will work with such specialist charities. I would like to pay personal tribute to those Members of Parliament who are living with disabilities. It was significant to hear my hon. Friend the Member for Bognor Regis and Littlehampton (Alison Griffiths) explain the extra burden, in addition to the normal burdens of being an assiduous Member of Parliament, her hearing loss has caused.”
“Disabled people are more likely to be the victims of crime and are twice as likely to experience harassment than non-disabled people. Disabled women are more than three times as likely to experience domestic abuse. I am sure that all hon. and right hon. Members are united on the need to end that, and I look forward to seeing what the Minister will do to work with his colleagues to ensure that the police and other services take a comprehensive and informed view when tackling abuse against disabled people. It is not a simple subject.”
“Nevertheless, according to the charity Scope, the disability price tag—the extra money needed by a disabled household to have the same standard of living as a non-disabled household—in my constituency is well over £900. We all know that it is not just extra financial costs that disabled people face. Almost three quarters of disabled people in my constituency are estimated to have experienced negative attitudes. Although a great many people in local schools, health providers, businesses and community centres are knowledgeable and respectful of the challenges facing the disabled community, it is also true that when we look at the national picture, outdated attitudes towards disabled people sometimes spill over into harassment and abuse.”
“She led the disability champions work across Government, where each Department of State had one Minister who was a disability champion, with a personal commitment to championing accessibility and opportunity for disabled people within their Department’s policies. The ministerial disability champions met regularly to discuss plans, such as the disability action plan, as well as the impact of the high cost of living on disabled people. I am certainly pleased that the new Government are continuing in the same vein with their disability leads in each Department. The same former Minister also recognised that some disabled people have significant extra costs relating to expensive equipment, home adaptations and so forth that they need in order to get by. The previous Conservative Government provided a substantial cost of living support package.”
“That is important because, as we have heard, this year’s UK Disability History Month theme is indeed livelihood and employment. We know that there are all types of benefits to working, including social benefits. Doing something that one enjoys can quell loneliness, create important social bonds and give one a sense of purpose. The benefits of including disabled people in our workplaces really are enormous. There are many other realms, however, where inclusion could be better. The former Minister of State for the Department for Work and Pensions, my hon. Friend the Member for East Grinstead and Uckfield (Mims Davies), understood this.”
“Members about the importance of the work ethic for disabled people, because the Minstead Trust has acquired the wonderful Hanger Farm Arts Centre, which is a terrific facility with a tremendous programme of visiting artists and performers. It also gives work experience opportunities to the people who benefit directly from the trust, and is an outlet for some of the goods that they manufacture under the auspices of the trust. It is a terrific facility for the community as well, so there are big wins all around from that wonderful project—long may it continue. The Minstead Trust also encourages workplaces to be inclusive in their recruitment practices, so that they can enjoy the benefits that people with learning disabilities can bring to the businesses that take them on.”
“Members, including the former Father of the House, Sir Peter Bottomley, and my late, great friend, Sir David Amess. Among other things, the motion called upon schools, colleges, universities, local authorities, employers, the public and the media to recognise and celebrate UK Disability History Month, and encouraged them to campaign to improve the then—and still, sadly—unequal position of disabled people in society by working towards greater equality and inclusion. That cause has certainly been taken up by a good number of people and organisations. I am particularly lucky to have in my constituency the Minstead Trust, which works to support people with learning disabilities. It is no exaggeration to say that it is a jewel in the crown of the New Forest. I was very interested in some earlier comments by hon.”
“I know she is very disappointed that she cannot be here today, but I understand that there is a visitation in her constituency of the sort that no MP can refuse to attend. I should like to record my gratitude to her pleasant and dedicated team for supplying me with some very helpful information, which I now intend to deploy. According to the charity Scope, there are well over 16,000 people living with a disability in my constituency of New Forest East, and I should like to say a few words to honour their efforts to work and live well despite the challenges that they face. Disability History Month is now an annual event celebrating the history, contributions and struggles of disabled people. A motion that marked the first Disability History Month was tabled in the Commons in November 2010, signed by 79 hon. and right hon.”
“May I begin by congratulating the hon. Member for Thurrock (Jen Craft) on securing the debate and leading it with such a wealth of knowledge and experience? I think we all benefited greatly from her presentation. This is a slightly unusual debate, because it is the first one that I can recall in recent times when the splendid hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) was the first Back Bencher to be called; that is a little bit of an in-joke, but most people familiar with his wonderful but very frequent contributions will understand what I mean. I was encouraged to take part in this debate by the fine example of the hon. Member for Battersea (Marsha De Cordova), who chairs the APPG on eye health and visual impairment.”
“Sorry. I remember once, before I knew it would come right—as it finally did—walking past the Palace of Westminster and thinking ruefully, “To think I thought I would ever get to be a Member of Parliament!” I got over that problem, and I did get to be a Member of Parliament. I take off my hat to those MPs with far worse disabilities—permanent disabilities—who nevertheless have joined this place and contribute so much to its proceedings.”
“Until small boats are either stopped on French shores or intercepted in French waters, some will clearly continue to get through. If, in the next few weeks, identified individuals from Syria, whether they be Assad’s torturers or released Islamist fanatics, manage to come to Britain, what will be done to them? Will they be detained or will they be allowed to walk free?”
“I do not think anyone who has listened to the Secretary of State today could be in the slightest doubt about the responsibility that he has borne and the personal empathy that he has injected into his handling of this very difficult question. I personally thank him for it. I was told a long time ago that one should never ask a question in the House to which one does not already know the answer, but I think I will break the rule this time. What about surgical procedures? One hears about irrevocable steps such as so-called top surgery—the removal of healthy breast tissue from young females. Where does the law stand on that issue at the current time?”
“It was as a result of that sort of unacceptable behaviour and intrusion on the independence of the ISC that the Committee earlier this year voted unanimously—I stress, unanimously—that the secretariat of the ISC should be removed from the oversight or control of the Cabinet Office and should become an independent body or a body corporate, as exists in certain other organisations. I really do commend that to the Leader of the House. We do not want to see a persistence of this conflict of interest, where the Cabinet Office is able to put a blight on the careers of the loyal, talented and dedicated members of staff who have served the ISC so well. With that, Madam Deputy Speaker—”
“It means that if the ISC is deemed to be unhelpful to the Government or the establishment, or the two organisations out of the seven that it scrutinises which happen to be located in the Cabinet Office, the careers of the staff of the ISC will not prosper. I want to put it on record that the director and the staff of the ISC—this is a common view among all parts of the Committee throughout my tenure as Chairman—are absolutely outstanding. I was particularly incensed when on two occasions, my recommendation as Chairman for an outstanding grading for the ISC’s professional director was overruled by officials in the Cabinet Office and downgraded.”
“That element of the work of those different Departments should be scrutinised by the ISC, and appropriate adaptations should be made to the terms of the memorandum of understanding. Instead, it was unrealistically suggested that the general Select Committee for the Department concerned could do that sensitive work. It could not; it should not—this should be down to the ISC. The second point is something I have alluded to repeatedly in speeches in this Parliament, which is that the independence of the secretariat of the ISC has been compromised by a so-called temporary arrangement, which was entered into with the Cabinet Office no less than 10 years ago.”
“That report is in its final form and is just awaiting completion of the agreed redactions that have to be worked out between the agencies concerned and the Committee. I hope that that report will appear soon. The Committee also produced no fewer than four of its annual reports, which surveyed the general landscape of the seven intelligence agencies and other security organisations that it supervises. There have been only two clouds on the horizon. One was the persistent refusal of the previous Government —no doubt on advice from officials in, I suspect, the Cabinet Office—to allow the Committee to adapt its memorandum of understanding with 10 Downing Street, which was specifically designed for flexibility when security sensitive activities were undertaken by different Departments.”
“I am also encouraged by the fact that there appears to be a better balance between the Members of this House and the number of Members from the other place, which reflects more appropriately the joint nature of the Committee. During my four years in post, the Committee produced several substantial reports—not just the famous Russia report, which was the work of the previous Committee and which we resolved to publish on our first day of reconstitution in July 2020. We produced major reports under our own steam, including one on extreme right-wing terrorism; a particularly well-received report on China; a substantial report on international partnerships; and, although it has not yet been published, a very interesting and comprehensive report on Iran.”
“I promise that I will not unduly detain the House. As the retiring Chairman of the Intelligence and Security Committee of Parliament, I wish to put on record that it has been an interesting tenure. It got off to a somewhat controversial start when the then Prime Minister delayed its reconstitution by seven months, and then proceeded to try to impose a Chairman on the Committee in defiance of the provisions of the Justice and Security Act 2013 that the Committee should henceforth choose its own Chairman from among its members. I am delighted to see that the present Government do not appear to be trying to do either of those two things.”
“It is possible both for the secret agencies to do their work and for the scrutineers of the secret agencies to do their work, provided that the independence of the people who do all the heavy lifting, namely the director and the secretariat, are not compromised.”
“Are you sure you really want to do this examination?” To which the obvious answer was, “Well, we will certainly be able to produce a very interesting report, even if it is classified in its entirety and published only as a single sheet with the title page on it.” I know I am not allowed to produce props, Madam Deputy Speaker, but I just happen to have with me a copy of that report, which it proved possible to publish in the end. It was not a single page; it was about 100 pages. That is what a clever, dedicated staff can manage to produce, irrespective of the fact that it rightly has to exclude anything that might harm the interests of the nation.”
“I am flattered and extremely grateful. Coming from someone of the calibre of my right hon. and learned Friend, that means a great deal to me. It reminds me of one last point that I perhaps would have overlooked: one can achieve an awful lot with these secret organisations. I remember going with the excellent director of the ISC to meet a senior figure, shall we say, in the secret world, and we were discussing some of the reports we were going to produce. One of them was, as I mentioned in my list earlier, a report on the international partnerships that our intelligence agencies have. The senior figure was saying, “Well, it’s going to be very difficult. You’re not going to be able to publish just about anything.”
“In an exchange a few moments ago, the Minister seemed to agree that this measure is designed to fight nimbyism. I understand what nimbyism means when it relates to an individual objector or a group of objectors, but when it relates to the members of a planning committee, that suggests that the Minister regards an elected body of specialist councillors as people who are saying “not in my back yard”, when in fact they are considering the welfare of their communities. Would he like to think about that point again?”
“May I gently remind the House that one should never idealise the oppositions in these scenarios? Some of what I have heard today reminds me very much of what I heard in this House after the downfall of Saddam Hussein and of Muammar Gaddafi. The truth is that in Syria, it is a choice between monsters and maniacs. I do not regret my votes either, in 2013 and 2015, when the coalition wanted to bomb first one side and then the other in the same civil war. Can the Foreign Secretary throw some light on what he expects Turkey to do, having supported the Islamist opposition, now that it will be face to face with its Kurdish enemies?”
“I think that often the reason people feel guilt is because they feel that they were not given the necessary information at the beginning and they did not ask for it, but if they had only known, they would not have touched this debatable and deplorable procedure with a bargepole.”
“Three TVTs—trans-vaginal tapes—are still inside her, she suffers chronic pain from orbital nerve damage, constantly needs painkillers and has had constant side effects, indifferent treatment and a refusal to admit fault or to refer her to an out-of-area specialist in mesh removal.” —[ Official Report , 19 April 2018; Vol. 639, c. 508.]”
“Treatment centres have been mentioned, but there is a particular question about who has the skill to practise in the treatment centres. Who will put themselves forward as being appropriately skilled? It will be the very people who inserted the mesh in the first place. In one of the earlier debates, I cited a constituent who was 35 when she was given what was described to her as “routine surgery”, 16 years before the debate in question took place. I said then: “She was initially told that it was her fault that her body was rejecting the two mesh implants. She then went through a cycle of implants, the removal of protrusions and eroded segments and seven bouts of surgery.”
“Looking back on my own website to check my contributions, I see that this is now the fourth full- scale debate in which my colleagues and I have gone over the same ground. If anybody is interested, the dates of the previous three debates, which were packed with testimony and interesting information, were 19 April 2018 —slightly longer ago from now than the entire duration of the second world war—8 July 2021 and 3 February 2022. It would not be appropriate for me to go over in detail what has been said previously, as it is all there on the record, but it is important to recognise that we are talking about thousands and thousands of damaged women—10,000 at the very least, and as we have heard, some estimates put the number as high as 40,000.”
“There has been one great positive development, which has been referred to several times, and that is the magnificent work of Baroness Cumberlege, who certainly did the whole community of damaged women the best possible service in conducting that excellent review. The question is to what extent will her recommendations be implemented? I pay tribute in particular to my right hon. Friend the Member for Wetherby and Easingwold (Sir Alec Shelbrooke), who spoke earlier, and the hon. Member for Washington and Gateshead South (Mrs Hodgson), from whom we are about to hear, for their exemplary leadership of the all-party parliamentary group on this terrible disaster and for keeping the flame burning all these years. I say “all these years” because it has been a long time.”
“The Post Office”. We can have these debates regularly, as we have been doing, and we can upset and horrify each other by recounting our constituents’ pain and the appalling negligence that led to these terrible outcomes, but until the issue grasps the public imagination, I do not think people will get anywhere. Interestingly, one point that has not been mentioned is the possible responsibility and liability of the large pharmaceutical company that manufactured the mesh in the first place. What research did it undertake? What responsibility does it have? What help can the Government give people who have been irreparably harmed to go after that company for compensation?”
“Listening to the heartfelt contributions of so many new colleagues, I get the impression that most if not all of them had, like me, never heard of this problem until a constituent walked into their surgery and told them of the terrible experience that they had had. I have a practical suggestion: at the end of this debate, which will no doubt follow in the footsteps of several previous debates that were equally well informed, passionate and horrifying, we should perhaps put our names to a joint letter to a man called Nick Wallis. He is a freelance journalist who did a wonderful thing: he researched the Post Office Horizon system disaster and wrote a book called “The Great Post Office Scandal”. If I remember correctly, it was serialised for a week on Radio 4, and subsequently he was the consultant to the remarkable production, “Mr Bates vs.”
“I have sometimes speculated—I am not in any way qualified to do so—that maybe the answer to this might be to develop some sort of technique that could harmlessly dissolve the material and let it be gradually flushed away, rather than physically trying to disentangle it with the risk of doing more damage. That may be completely and utterly impracticable, but my point is that we do not know because no proper national effort is being made to find a way in which this disaster can be, to some extent, effectively rectified without harming the victims further.”
“31274—which read: “To ask the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, with reference to the debate on the Independent Medicines and Medical Devices Safety Review on 8 July 2021…what steps he plans to take to research new and improved techniques for removal of eroded surgical mesh implants.” As we have heard, it is intolerably difficult to remove this stuff. One would think that the very least the NHS could do would be to make a dedicated effort to develop new techniques for doing it. The description of it being like removing hair from chewing gum is vivid.”
“NHS England’s procurement process to identify the specialist centres to deal with the complications of mesh considered a range of clinical and service quality issues. No assessment was undertaken regarding National Health Service contracts or staff facing legal proceedings.” Somebody in the process of suing a surgeon but still needing ongoing care may have no other option but to go to a mesh centre headed up by—guess who?—the surgeon who she is suing because he damaged her in the first place. The second written question I will refer to was in July 2021—question No.”
“In June 2021—for the benefit of Hansard it was question 16777—I asked the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care “what checks his Department carried out to ensure that surgeons awarded NHS contracts for the removal of failed vaginal mesh implants had not previously been responsible for (a) originally implanting them, and subsequently (b) denying that anything had gone wrong with them; and whether any personnel awarded NHS contracts to work at mesh remediation specialist centres are known by his Department to be currently facing legal proceedings for implanting mesh which injured women who are now seeking its removal at such centres.” The answer, which came from the then Minister of State, read: “It is the responsibility of the employing organisations”— presumably the NHS— “to ensure that the staff undertaking mesh implantation and/or dealing with mesh complications are qualified and competent to do so.”
“Exactly right. That is why my constituent said at the time, “I do not want anyone from the hospital coming near me ever again. I have lost complete faith in them. I have been lied to and told repeatedly that it was my body rejecting the mesh. But unbelievably they kept putting more in.” Over this period of six or more years I have probably tabled about 12 or 15 questions for written answer, obviously to a previous Government. I will quote three, which were all in the aftermath of the Cumberlege report.”
“I feel sick at the thought of passing him in the street, let alone needing to see him as a health professional. I am sure we all feel the same.””
“Mesh was eroding through the vaginal wall immediately, and I had seven further ‘repair’ surgeries, which did not solve the erosion problem. In 2016, he advised me he could remove the mesh, so I paid privately for the surgery. During the surgery, nerves were damaged, causing severe pain and limitations, and the mesh was not all removed. I am left with the pain and limitations permanently, and have been told by another surgeon that full removal is now not possible. This surgeon is the clinical lead of the mesh centre” local to her. She concludes: “No surgeon should ever be allowed to cause damage to multiple patients, yet not only continue to perform the same surgeries, but to be head of the very centre which should be helping women.”