Lynne Neagle
Sir Fynwy Torfaen · Welsh Labour · Wales
“Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. Can I thank the Children, Young People and Education Committee for their hard work over the course of this major inquiry? We all share the goal of ensuring the best start in life for our children. I want to particularly thank the parents, carers and children who spoke to the committee.”
“The committee report makes five conclusions and 32 recommendations. It's impossible for me to do justice to them in eight minutes, but I'll try and cover as many points as I can, starting with the areas I am directly responsible for.”
“Whenever I've posted something as a constituency MS about school uniform, it's had lots and lots of engagement, which tells me that it's something that really worries my constituents.”
“Thank you very much, Cefin, for your welcome for the statement, and I welcome close scrutiny of our action in this space. And thank you too for recognising that there has been an improvement in well-being, but as you say, it's not back to pre-pandemic levels.”
“We've got CAMHS school in-reach in Wales, which we've invested over million £5 million in, with CAMHS professionals going into schools, working with the staff there, providing additional support for children and young people with more complexity, and we have invested over £13 million in that work just this year alone.”
“Can I thank Gareth Davies for his welcome for the statement and his comments, some of which I agreed with? In particular, I agree with the fact that a lot of the issues we're seeing in schools are interconnected, and one of the things that I said when I came into post was that I wanted to see better join-up of a range of things that we're…”
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“Gareth, I'm wondering if you really need, with some of your colleagues, to start listening a bit more. I've addressed these issues, repeatedly, in the Chamber, made repeated statements about priorities. You know, please, keep up.”
“The committee report makes five conclusions and 32 recommendations. It's impossible for me to do justice to them in eight minutes, but I'll try and cover as many points as I can, starting with the areas I am directly responsible for. The successful implementation of our ALN reforms has been a top priority for me since coming into post in March. I know how hard everyone in schools, colleges and local authorities are working to deliver for children and young people, and I'm grateful to Heledd for her acknowledgement that it is working well for some children in Wales, though not for all children, and I recognise we have more work to do to get this right.”
“Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. Can I thank the Children, Young People and Education Committee for their hard work over the course of this major inquiry? We all share the goal of ensuring the best start in life for our children. I want to particularly thank the parents, carers and children who spoke to the committee. The note of the discussions with parents made for sobering and distressing reading, and I am truly sorry that the families have had these experiences, and I say on behalf of the Government that it is not good enough. My first paid job after leaving university was working with and for parents of disabled children. I heard then how hard they had to fight for the services and support they needed. It affected me deeply, and I want to acknowledge that not enough has changed for enough families. We can and we must do better.”
“I’ve been clear that I thought that secondary schools was where we needed to make the most progress. Sarah Murphy and I have got our delivery board tomorrow where we’ll be scrutinising Public Health Wales and the other work streams, and I really want to see everybody in Wales doing this. I know we’re asking a lot of schools. This isn’t intended to be burdensome. It’s not about teachers becoming therapists. It’s about everybody recognising that a school where there’s a sense of belonging, agency and strong relationships is what enables good mental health to flourish.”
“I think it’s really important that we have as many opportunities as possible for children and young people to ask for help when they need it. That’s absolutely vital. In terms of the schools that aren’t at the right stage in terms of the whole-school approach to mental health and the implementation of the guidance, we are continuing to drive that work. I do want to see more progress. I highlighted in my statement that there’s also a gap with primary provision, but I also feel that lots of primary schools do this work very naturally. Our whole-school approach is built on strong relationships, and they naturally have strong relationships because they’re with one class all of the time. It’s Public Health Wales who we fund—it’s around £700,000—to implement the guidance for us.”
“Thank you very much, Jenny, and thank you for the kind words. I’m really glad you had the opportunity to visit the Hangout. I know of it and I’ve heard really great things about it. I haven’t had the opportunity to go there myself yet, but organisations like that are really important, where children and young people can go and ask for help. It’s one of the reasons why we’ve also as a Government, as part of our co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru, invested in sanctuary provision, and some of those are community drop-in type provision, such as the one that you’ve referred to. We also fund things like Meic, which is the helpline for children and young people, and you know about '111 press 2', which can also be used by children and young people.”
“It will take a little while, because there are also concerns about how you do it, and workload, et cetera, but I am very keen to get a clearer picture on that. And it's not just about racism. We know from the data that's come through the school health research network that young people who don't identify as either male or female also have high reporting of incidents of bullying. I want all our schools to be inclusive, welcoming places for all our young people. Because as you say, those experiences of bullying can last a lifetime and be really traumatic.”
“Thank you very much. And well done on your odd socks—I'm glad that you listened to your four-year-old; they're obviously a very wise four-year-old you've got in your house. So, yes, absolutely, and what the odd socks thing shows is it's about difference, and what we want is our schools to be inclusive regardless of all those differences. I said in response to Cefin how seriously we're taking the children's commissioner's report and recommendations, and you'll be aware that one of the recommendations she made was around recording incidents of racism. You've got to have data to change things, in my experience—it's about having that sensible data. So, that is one of the areas that we're working on.”
“What I do give you an assurance on is that, as we refresh this guidance now, I will look at the issues around consistency and implementation, because it's not good enough to have the right policies, they've got to be implemented on the ground.”
“You also mentioned parents as well, and parents can help with this, but they can be a negative sometimes with social media, when things start to do the rounds on Facebook, and things like that. You'll be aware that we've got our commitment to community-focused schools, which we're investing millions of pounds in, and I want to see that work roll out. It's vital that schools are able to make the connection with communities and with families. We've also invested £6.5 million this year in family engagement officers, who can work with families around the complex issues that are preventing some of those children and young people coming to school and thriving in school. I'm hoping that we will be able to extend that work as well, to try to make it more consistent across Wales.”
“Can I thank Laura Anne Jones for those comments? I'm really sorry to hear about your constituent. Nobody wants to hear of children and young people being in that situation. Our guidance on bullying is statutory, and we expect all schools to have plans in place to tackle bullying, because it does, as you've outlined, have a huge impact. And as you've also said, it's not just about what happens in school, especially with social media. It's not like years ago, where you go home, shut the door, and that's it. People can access children and young people at all times, and that is incredibly worrying, and why the online safety work that I've talked about is so important.”
“For me, it’s really important that they know how to seek help as well if they’re upset about something that they’ve seen. We are doing lots of work on keeping children and young people safe online. We’ve got a dedicated area of Hwb. We’ve got a young persons reference group, which we’re currently refreshing, and there’s also lots of helpful information for parents about how to keep their children and young people safe. But you’re right to raise it, and it’s something that we always need to keep under review. It’s why the whole-school approach is so important, because if kids are struggling, we want them to tell people that they’re struggling, whether that’s one of their friends, a teacher, school caretaker; it doesn’t matter, as long as they reach out for help.”
“Just to assure you that, as I said last week, we are publishing a behaviour toolkit to help schools, and that will include classroom management strategies and research on managing behaviour, including mobile phone usage in schools. And just to say as well that you make important points about social media. I wouldn’t want to be a teenager growing up today. It is a really challenging environment. It’s not clear-cut with social media, because there are benefits as well as disadvantages for children and young people, especially those that are feeling isolated. One of the things our curriculum aims to do, through things like our relationships and sexuality education work, is to encourage children and young people to become discerning users of social media.”
“Thank you very much, Carolyn, for those comments. I really welcome the fact that the Petitions Committee is looking at these issues. The issues around mobile phones are complicated, I think. All schools currently are able to ban mobile phones in schools if they want to, and indeed, most schools don’t permit the use of mobile phones in the classroom. It was interesting, though, at the headteachers conference last week, that when we were looking at behaviour, they felt that mobile phones should be a matter for individual schools. So, there are different opinions on this, but I’ll look forward to hearing the evidence that comes out from your committee.”
“We have considered the recommendations set out in the children's commissioner's report. We've accepted or partly accepted most of them. Some of the recommendations are challenging and will take a bit of time, because they involve data and often, when you're collecting data, that means changing regulations. But I'm committed to getting this right and it will be a key part of the review of the guidance to make sure that we bring it up to date and make it clear that racism in schools is not acceptable and that we want to stamp it out.”
“I don't want any child to be penalised because their parents haven't got enough money to give them the correct item of uniform, and we have to work with schools on that to make sure that they are as inclusive as possible. You referred to the issues of racism, and our review of the guidance will definitely take account of what we know are really worrying findings by the children's commissioner on racism. Obviously, as a Government, we're working on the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan', which is being led by Jane Hutt. I went to school in the 1980s and we had very few children from black and minority ethnic communities in schools then, but actually, I was shocked when I saw some of the things that were happening in schools today. I really thought things had come on a lot, so it is shocking.”
“Whenever I've posted something as a constituency MS about school uniform, it's had lots and lots of engagement, which tells me that it's something that really worries my constituents. You'll be aware that we did revise the guidance for schools on school uniform a year ago, but like you, I don't feel that I've got the assurance about implementation. So, we're currently looking now at the implementation, to make sure that that guidance is working. You'll probably be aware that the UK Labour Government is considering primary legislation in this space, and I'm keeping open the option of working with them on that, if we find that our guidance isn't being implemented. Lots of schools already have uniform recycling and that is something that we're continuing to encourage. But I am very keen, if necessary, to look at strengthening that guidance.”
“Thank you very much, Cefin, for your welcome for the statement, and I welcome close scrutiny of our action in this space. And thank you too for recognising that there has been an improvement in well-being, but as you say, it's not back to pre-pandemic levels. So, there are some mixed messages in there that we need to consider very carefully. I've been in post since March. I can tell you that we are working now on the bullying guidance, and I'm very happy to keep you updated on that. We'll do that as quickly as we can and, hopefully, go out to consult on the new guidance after Christmas. You referred to the impact of poverty, which is very, very pertinent, and in particular the issues around school uniform. I've got a very long-standing bugbear about school uniform; it's something that has worried me greatly.”
“I'm really proud that we've got SHRN in Wales; it's funded jointly across the Government and it is a really powerful way of listening to the voices of children and young people, and what it has said about bullying is really worrying. I'm going to be meeting the SHRN team shortly to talk about the findings and to talk about—. Schools have got access to that data, they have their own school report from SHRN, but I'm keen that, as a Government, we can look to use that data to make sure that we hone our policies more effectively. Thank you.”
“I have always said—indeed, I said it to the headteachers' conference last week—that the education workforce can't support the mental health and well-being of children in schools if they are not in a good place themselves, so that's why our whole-school approach also applies to our education workforce. We're investing in support for the workforce, not just through Education Support, which is an organisation that we fund to support the workforce, but also school staff have been able to access the counselling service as well. I also disagree with what you've said about the record on bullying. As I said today, we're looking to update the statutory guidance on bullying. The SHRN results are very concerning.”
“So, I think we've got a good record, but we need to keep our foot down on the pedal on that. And if I can say to you, Gareth, that a lot of the mental health issues affecting children and young—and indeed, which contribute to bullying—are due to poverty, and that is a direct result of your Government in Westminster—[ Interruption .] No, no, no, no, no: this is a fact. You have led to many, many children growing up in homes where they are living in poverty. That leads to stigma and social exclusion. It is a fact. Now we've got a Labour Government in Westminster, albeit a very young one, I am confident that we will see things change, working with the Labour Government here. You made some important points about the education workforce.”
“We've got CAMHS school in-reach in Wales, which we've invested over million £5 million in, with CAMHS professionals going into schools, working with the staff there, providing additional support for children and young people with more complexity, and we have invested over £13 million in that work just this year alone. So, I think that we have a good record, but there is more work to do. And the increase that you've referred to in the numbers of children and young people reporting poor well-being is not because of a lack of commitment by this Government or action by this Government; I think it's symptomatic of the complexity of children and young people's lives. We know that the COVID pandemic had an impact on children and young people and we're still recovering from that, including in schools.”
“There was a duty as part of the Curriculum and Assessment (Wales) Act 2021 to have regard to the mental health of children and young people in drawing up a curriculum. That's a world first, as far as I'm aware, and we have done that in Wales. And I think we have a good record; we have things in Wales that are just not happening over the border. So, we've got a whole-school approach to mental health, which is a work in progress, but we have that, and we've enshrined it in statutory guidance. We've had school counselling available for young people in Wales from year 6 to the end of secondary school. That's an entitlement that young people have in Wales; again, not something that's happened over the border.”
“Can I thank Gareth Davies for his welcome for the statement and his comments, some of which I agreed with? In particular, I agree with the fact that a lot of the issues we're seeing in schools are interconnected, and one of the things that I said when I came into post was that I wanted to see better join-up of a range of things that we're doing; so, behaviour is linked to mental health is linked to exclusions is linked to attendance, and we're trying to join up that work. Part of the work that the delivery board for the whole-school approach, which is jointly chaired by myself and Sarah Murphy, is doing is that we have a work stream there that is looking across the whole system of what we're doing to make sure that these initiatives are joined up. You mentioned the duty on mental health.”
“The Welsh Government funds this work, providing over £800,000 in the current year, and I believe it's one of the biggest surveys of children and young people in the UK. A hundred and thirty thousand learners in years 7 to 11 took part, from 200 Welsh secondary schools. It provides a wealth of intelligence on the health and well-being of children and young people, and we've now extended the survey to children in primary schools. In relation to bullying, it highlights that almost 38 per cent of children and young people said that they had been bullied in the previous couple of months, up from 32 per cent in 2021. More than 40 per cent of girls reported being bullied, compared to over 30 per cent of boys.”
“Our differences should never be the reason for someone to be bullied or mistreated. When I accepted the role of Cabinet Secretary for Education, I said well-being and good mental health will be the platform on which our education system will be built. Tackling bullying and its impact is a key priority for me. I want to send the message that bullying is unacceptable and will not be tolerated. I also want to be clear that we will support the victim, and work with the perpetrator to recognise the harm they have done, helping them find a positive way forward. For anyone unsure about the impacts bullying can have, recent data makes for stark reading. Last month, the key findings from the School Health Research Network secondary school dashboard were published.”
“Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you for the opportunity to talk about an issue that affects so many children and young people. As I've said in this Chamber before, I want our children to have positive experiences in school and to thrive in the nurturing and supportive environment school provides. Sadly, despite our best efforts, school is not a positive experience for all children and young people. Bullying continues to be a problem and it has a very real impact, particularly on children's emotional well-being. This week, we mark Anti-Bullying Week, an important point in our calendar, when we can all stop and consider the impact bullying has. Today, we also mark Odd Socks Day, when we encourage everyone to wear odd socks, celebrating what makes us unique.”
“But we're also continuing to fund a trial of community-focused schools managers who will work on developing better engagement between schools and their communities, and, hopefully, that will lead to a more consistent application of people being able to benefit from this funding.”
“The decision to facilitate wider community use normally sits with the governing body and the headteacher, and it's really important that there's a clear vision communicated by senior leaders and governors at the school. In sharing resources, the right fit between schools and other partners will vary depending on the nature of the community, and school leaders need to be clear about how the role of the school is nested within wider initiatives at a local level, and develop the partnerships most relevant to them. Obviously, in addition to capital we've also this year invested £6.5 million in family engagement officers to work with families and communities around schools, and that's an important contribution to this as well.”
“That supported sports facilities in the area through other capital grants, such as the new 3G pitch in Torfaen at Ysgol Gymraeg Gwynllyw and a new sports hall in Newport in Ysgol Gyfun Gwent Is Coed, delivered through the Welsh-medium capital grant funding, and almost 30 per cent of this funding is specifically targeted to deliver and improve a wide range of indoor and outdoor sports facilities. Now, the Member does make a valid point that not all schools do this, and many schools in Wales do accommodate extended school and community services including sports, but it is down to the governing body, which plays a crucial role in controlling use of these facilities, both outside and inside school hours.”
“Thank you, Laura. Well I have to disagree with you that this isn't an area where we've made good progress in Wales. As I said, you know, by the end of this financial year, 2024-25, we'll have invested £60 million in community-focused schools. That's on top of the billions of pounds that we've spent on new school buildings et cetera, so I think our track record in Wales on investing in school buildings is one that we can be proud of. In terms of South Wales East, we've invested specifically £9.5 million for projects in the South Wales East area.”
“Investing in our sports facilities is a programme for government commitment and we work closely with Sport Wales to improve and renew facilities across Wales. Since 2022-23, our £60 million community-focused schools capital grant programme has delivered sporting facilities and improved access to our school sites for the community.”
“Give it Time’ campaign has worked with the Children's Bladder and Bowel Charity to co-brand two of their resources, one called ‘Thinking of wee & poo now you've reached the age of two’ and one called ‘Thinking of wee & poo now you're on your way to school’, to explain the importance of healthy bladder and bowels. You'll be aware as well of our Flying Start, which we've maintained in Wales despite it not being in place for so long over the border. Our transitional guidance for Flying Start families takes a holistic approach to ensure that children experience positive transitions in the early years, and promotes the importance of understanding the needs of children, including toileting.”
“Can I thank Janet for her question? Indeed, I've heard myself from some headteachers that they are seeing children coming to school who aren't toilet trained, and how challenging that can be. It's part of what I've described in the Chamber about schools picking up a wider range of issues that are not education related, and that's putting a lot of pressure on them. We do have our ‘Parenting. Give it Time’ campaign and a Teulu Cymru campaign and webpages, which provide vital information for families including parenting tips, advice on parenting concerns such as behaviour, tantrums, bedtimes, mealtimes and potty training, and which signpost parents to sources of further support. The ‘Parenting.”
“Our approach in Wales is on early help and prevention, providing support to families from an early stage to help ensure children experience a smooth transition to school.”
“I went into considerable detail in the session yesterday about how we are going to do that, so I would refer you to that statement, which sets out our plans in some detail.”
“Thank you, Peter, for your supplementary. Indeed, the e-sgol project was a pleasure to visit; I think it has got lots of potential for subjects where there aren't that many learners who are opting to do it. There's good evidence now that we're starting to see it being rolled out in primary schools, where young people are getting opportunities they would never get otherwise to work with things like the Goethe-Institut, so, you know, it is a really good opportunity and I commend the council for their work on it. Obviously, you went on, then, to make a wider political point about the school standards in Wales. I did make a statement yesterday on that, which I would refer you to. That set out that it is a Welsh Government priority to increase attendance and attainment; that we're going to have an absolute focus on literacy and numeracy.”
“You do make an important point about the Welsh language and education Bill, and I hope that the work that we're doing, not just through the Bill but through our Welsh in education strategic plans and through our workforce plan, will mean that we will increase the stream of young people that are coming forward to do A-level Welsh, because, clearly, what is creating the challenge here is the fact that there aren't that many pupils, and we need to address that.”
“As I said, I went to see it in action with the Spanish lessons in September and had the opportunity to talk to the young people. It seemed to be going really, really well and they were happy with how it was working. I think the academic results are encouraging as well. The 2023 A-level results show that 15.2 per cent of learners achieved A* grades through e-sgol, compared with 13.5 per cent across Wales, and similarly, there's a slightly higher achievement of A to C grades with e-sgol, compared to the rest of Wales. You'll also, I'm sure, be assured that Estyn have recognised the e-sgol provision in their post-16 partnership report. The strategic head of e-sgol is very happy to come and meet with Members of the Senedd to talk to you about your concerns if that would be helpful.”
“I think you raise important issues, though, about the numbers of young people who are taking A-level Welsh and I'm keen to look again at the A-level to ensure that we've got a qualification that motivates more young people to choose to do the subject at A-level. More work is going to be done with schools, pupils and parents to showcase the e-sgol provision and its quality to give them the confidence that it provides high-quality teaching and a good experience for learners. And you may find it reassuring that the initial pupil questionnaire came back with a 94 per cent positive response in relation to the provision. I know that the local authority have undertaken a lesson observation cycle recently and had very positive feedback.”
“Thank you very much, Peredur, for that question. Without e-sgol there is, unfortunately, a distinct possibility that Welsh A-level wouldn't have been delivered for the nine A-level students in Monmouthshire—two in Caldicot School, two in King Henry VIII school and five in Monmouth Comprehensive School. And I do believe that e-sgol can help rebuild Welsh language provision in Monmouthshire, so that the numbers increase again. There is some face-to-face provision as part of the project, and I was assured of that when I went to see it; they do get opportunities to meet together, face to face.”
“E-sgol is an innovative project delivered across Wales. In September I launched an e-sgol partnership in Monmouthshire and saw how it enables learners to access subjects that might not otherwise be offered. E-sgol is currently delivered in three authorities in South Wales East for pupils in years 12 and 13.”
“Thank you, Natasha, and you raise a really important point about work experience. It's good for all young people to get those opportunities, but, in my experience, it's often our most vulnerable learners who get the most from those opportunities to do things in a slightly different way, and to experience the real-life world of work. I wasn't aware of the funding issues at the Ebbw Vale Institute that you've referred to. Obviously, the levelling-up fund and other funds are in a state of transition at the moment, but I do give you my commitment that I will talk to Cabinet colleagues, not just the local government Minister but also the Cabinet Secretary for finance, about the issues that you've raised, and I'm very happy to write to you about that.”
“My priorities for schools in South Wales East include raising levels of attainment, attendance and closing the gap for our poorest learners.”
“But what I will do is, following those meetings, I’m very happy to consider the issues arising from those. I mean, things like panic alarms, that may be raised—I don’t know. I want to listen to the people who are at the front line when we consider how we can help with this, and that’s, of course, in addition to the other things that we’re doing like the behaviour toolkit and the research that we’re doing on behaviour.”
“I issued a written statement updating on our efforts to tackle teacher workload a few weeks ago. In terms of the points you raise about behaviour in schools, as I made clear yesterday in answers to question, I am really worried about what schools are dealing with. They’re dealing with a really complex range of societal issues that are now presenting in schools, because they are the places that are there all the time, and teachers are focusing on those issues when they want to be focusing on teaching and learning. You’ve seen my letter, so you know that I have the meeting with the trade unions coming up next week, and that we have the headteachers conference with secondary heads on Friday, where we’re going to be focusing on behaviour. Local authorities and schools are under a legal duty to make sure that schools are a safe place to work.”
“Thank you very much, Altaf, for your supplementary. You raised a number of points there. I would like to assure you that we take the issue of teacher recruitment and retention very seriously and that we recognise the huge pressures teachers are under, and also the link between workload and their well-being. It’s essential that teachers are able to maintain an appropriate work-life balance, and there’s a commitment from all stakeholders to make tangible, impactful changes that will make real positive change for teachers. We’ve worked in the last year in particular with our stakeholders and our partners around the issues of workload, and we’ve had an independently chaired strategic workload co-ordination group, membership of which is drawn from key stakeholders and representatives from across the education system.”
“We continue to support recruitment into initial teacher education programmes through a range of activities. These include providing incentives to support recruitment to priority subjects and for Welsh-medium trainees, expanding the subjects available through the salaried PGCE programmes and the Teaching Wales marketing campaign.”
“This is a Government that will be spending that additional money on our priorities, and education is one of our priorities.”
“Well, the UK Labour Government has been in power since July—it's a matter of months. It's absurd, really, to—. I'm incredibly impressed by what they've done already. Your Government had 14 years of raining destruction down on our public services. We have made provision, in partnership with the UK Labour Government, for a pay rise for teachers that is above what was recommended by the IWPRB. You could be a bit more graceful and welcome that money that's been made available to teachers. And what's more, Tom, I'm confident, following the budget last week, you heard the huge amount of additional funding that's being made available to us here in Wales, which is the biggest boost that we've had since we last had a Labour Government in Westminster.”