Lynne Neagle
Sir Fynwy Torfaen · Welsh Labour · Wales
“Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. Can I thank the Children, Young People and Education Committee for their hard work over the course of this major inquiry? We all share the goal of ensuring the best start in life for our children. I want to particularly thank the parents, carers and children who spoke to the committee.”
“The committee report makes five conclusions and 32 recommendations. It's impossible for me to do justice to them in eight minutes, but I'll try and cover as many points as I can, starting with the areas I am directly responsible for.”
“Whenever I've posted something as a constituency MS about school uniform, it's had lots and lots of engagement, which tells me that it's something that really worries my constituents.”
“Thank you very much, Cefin, for your welcome for the statement, and I welcome close scrutiny of our action in this space. And thank you too for recognising that there has been an improvement in well-being, but as you say, it's not back to pre-pandemic levels.”
“We've got CAMHS school in-reach in Wales, which we've invested over million £5 million in, with CAMHS professionals going into schools, working with the staff there, providing additional support for children and young people with more complexity, and we have invested over £13 million in that work just this year alone.”
“Can I thank Gareth Davies for his welcome for the statement and his comments, some of which I agreed with? In particular, I agree with the fact that a lot of the issues we're seeing in schools are interconnected, and one of the things that I said when I came into post was that I wanted to see better join-up of a range of things that we're…”
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“Thank you, Tom. I think I've been very clear that we've made funding available to meet the pay increase that we have allocated. We've also protected the funding that has gone to schools as best we can. And can I remind you that we were in the situation of school budgets, and indeed all public services, being under pressure because of the actions of your Government in Westminster, who consistently short-changed this Government in terms of funding of public services? This is a Government that protects public services, and, by working in partnership with the UK Labour Government, we have identified funding for the pay rise for our school teachers.”
“We've already made provision, Tom, for some of that pay rise in the money that's been allocated to local government. Thankfully, because we have a UK Labour Government now in Westminster that is really committed to protecting our public services, there will also be additional money that will be coming to enable us to go further than the independent Welsh pay review body recommendation, which was 4.3 per cent, to take us to 5.5 per cent. So, I think we are making very good provision. That is not to say that I don't recognise the pressures on schools, and I've been very clear with you before that we have done what we can to protect the money that goes to schools through the revenue support grant. And obviously, we're going through a budget process at the moment to look at the budget allocations for next year.”
“But you can be assured, Gareth, that I want to make sure that we are as thorough as possible in the interests of having justice for the young people who have suffered at the hands of this man.”
“The child practice review will involve asking all agencies that are represented on the board, and any other agencies that have had contact with the victims and their families, to prepare a timeline of their involvement, and this information will be merged to create a multi-agency chronology of all known contact with agencies. That will be scrutinised and challenged by the independent reviewers, chair and panel members, sense-checked with practitioners in a learning event, and then there’ll be further challenge and scrutiny at regional safeguarding board meetings. As I said in response to Siân Gwenllian, when we’ve had the information from the child practice review, we will then consider whether there is any further action that we need to take.”
“Obviously, all headteachers are subject to really stringent procedures around safeguarding, so there could never have been any inkling at Welsh Government level, or even at the committee level, that he was the kind of prolific offender that he was. I think that it’s really important that we let the child practice review take its course. If, during the review, the reviewer, the panel members or board members identify any issues with regard to individual professionals or agencies that need to be explored further, these issues will be remitted to the relevant organisations and they will take any further action required. So, any organisations that have learning from this case have to do that.”
“Thank you, Gareth. I do think it's regrettable to bring party politics into a subject that is this serious, whether that's—[ Interruption .] I think that that is a regrettable thing to do. This is a really serious issue. A prolific offender has flown under the radar and we have to take that very seriously. As I explained, we're having the child practice review, which is being undertaken by the north Wales safeguarding board. I have not had any advice from Neil Foden. Like many headteachers, he would have had contact with the Welsh Government previously. In fact, he gave evidence to the Children, Young People and Education Committee when I was Chair, because he was a senior official for the NUT at the time.”
“You'll be aware, Siân, that public inquiries are lengthy processes that will also prolong this process. I think it's right that we wait to see what the child practice review reports, and then Welsh Government will consider next steps.”
“Obviously, this is a review that's being undertaken under the auspices of the north Wales safeguarding board, so it's not our Welsh Government review, but I would be very happy to follow up any particular concerns you've got over the responses that are coming from the child practice review to families. In terms of the publication of the remit, I can certainly ask officials to follow that up with the north Wales safeguarding board as well. I think it's important that everything is as transparent as possible. If I can come to your substantive point, really, about a public inquiry, we do need, I think, to allow the child practice review to run its course before we consider what further action is needed, including the possibility of a public inquiry.”
“Can I thank Siân Gwenllian for her supplementary question, and can I say that my thoughts remain with the young people and the families affected by the horrendous abuse perpetuated by Neil Foden? Siân Gwenllian raised several points there. I'm aware that some Senedd Members have raised concerns over the process for communicating with the child practice review. I understand that a letter was issued before half term with an e-mail address that people could contact if they wanted to contribute to the review, and that children, young people and their parents do not have to go via the local authority or school to make contact. I will follow up with officials to check, and maybe you could write to me about specific concerns if you're talking about the timeliness of a response.”
“The north Wales regional safeguarding board have commissioned a child practice review. We need to allow the CPR to run its course before considering what action is needed. The outcome of this review will therefore inform our next steps.”
“This is a power rather than a duty, and there's no requirement on schools that choose not to use it; it's a matter for individual schools. You may also be interested to know that we're looking at publishing amended exclusions guidance in January, and that's going to further clarify provisions in relation to searching pupils without consent where they're suspected of carrying a weapon, and making it clearer that possessing or using a weapon can be grounds for exclusion from school. And we're also improving the data that we're collecting on this.”
“I haven't ruled out having a summit. I want to have this discussion with the trade unions next week first, so that if we are going to have a summit, we do that in a way that ensures that we get the most possible that we can out of it. This headteachers conference is not just a minor deep-dive on Friday; we've got well over 100 secondary heads coming from across Wales and the focus of that is—. We're going to have a focus on behaviour. So, I will be taking action and if we require to have a summit, then we will have a summit, but I want to have those discussions first. Now, in terms of what you said about pupils being searched for knives et cetera, and weapons, schools are already able to screen pupils for a knife or other weapons and search pupils suspected of carrying weapons.”
“Thank you very much, Adam. I am really worried about behaviour. I don't want anyone, whether it's children and young people or teachers, to feel unsafe in their working environment. Everybody has got a right to feel safe where they work. You'll be aware that all schools and settings are required to have a behaviour policy that promotes good pupil behaviour, and schools have a legal duty to provide a safe learning environment. As I said earlier, it does feel like the world has changed a lot, especially since the pandemic, and schools are now picking up the pieces on a range of really complex societal problems that, for some young people, are manifesting in really challenging behaviour. We're seeing more and more kids who are going to school emotionally dysregulated and it is a really challenging situation. But I am taking action.”
“I've also been very transparent about the inconsistent implementation of what is a good piece of legislation and that we need to do more in that space, and we have a full plan of how we are going to take that work forward, which is working with local authorities to make sure that everybody is consistently implementing the legislation to deliver for children and young people.”
“We've got a group that is looking at things like their professional learning, looking at the support that they need in schools, and the issue of their pay is of course a matter for local government. You referred briefly to the double science change with GCSEs. Can I say that is not a dumbing down of the qualification? It is a new qualification that will be just as stretching, and in fact the learned societies in Wales have backed the new qualification. I didn't specifically refer to ALN in the statement because I've made numerous contributions in this Chamber about ALN and been very clear that it's a priority for me as Cabinet Secretary. I've already announced that we are reviewing the legislation and the code to make sure that it is easily understood and can be consistently implemented across Wales.”
“Can I thank the Member for her response to my statement, negative though it was? I would have to disagree with her that there were no solutions in what I said. I have set out what we see as key priorities for the education sector in Wales. We know that we've been asking a lot of our schools in Wales, so I think that that aspect of prioritisation, letting schools know what we want them to focus on, is vitally important. I said in response to Cefin Campbell—maybe you weren't listening—that we did protect the funding that went to schools through the local authority education grant, and I've already explained in response to Tom how important teaching assistants are. I know that they've got tough and challenging jobs and we are working hard with our teaching assistants.”
“So, there are lots of schools who get funding to specifically put in place changes to the school building that enables the communities to access those schools, and that's something that I'm really very keen on. I know, too, that you've got a strong interest in school uniform policy. You'll be aware that we reviewed our policy and issued new statutory guidance just over a year ago. It is for governing bodies and schools to implement that guidance, but we are conducting a review of how that new guidance is going at the moment. I'm very happy to look at the issue that you've raised around active school uniforms, despite the fact that, obviously, it's a matter for schools and governing bodies. I think the issue of pupil voice is really important in terms of school uniforms, and listening to young people.”
“I think there's more that we can do, and in my previous role as Deputy Minister for Mental Health and Well-being, we were looking at a daily active offer, which was a bit like the daily mile, but a bit more rounded really, looking at how kids come to school, what they do when they play in school, during the lessons—so, having a rounded look at activity. I think that's really important as well. I know that you are really committed to the community-focused schools agenda, and that's somewhere where we have made a lot of progress as a Government. You'll know that our investment in school buildings has been at record levels in Wales—that's not just for new buildings, it's also for the community-focused element of that.”
“Thank you very much, John. I know how passionate you are about sport and physical activity, and, obviously, it's really important—it's important for children's health, but also does help them to learn in school, and is absolutely vital. You'll be aware that our new curriculum has a statutory area of learning and experience that is related to health, so that work on improving health should be embedded throughout the curriculum. On top of that, we've got other initiatives that we've had long-standing support for in Wales, like the Welsh network of healthy schools, which works with schools to make sure that they are promoting physical and mental health. In terms of active travel, obviously, that's a priority for the Government.”
“In terms of the VAT increase, you will have heard that the Chancellor confirmed that the VAT change in terms of private schools is going ahead. I know you're aware that I've already had discussions with the Treasury about the need for Wales to have our fair share of that money, and I'm confident that we'll continue those discussions and we'll want to get the very best deal out of that for Wales.”
“You referred to investment, and the sums that I've referred to for specific initiatives around literacy and numeracy today are, of course, in-year funding. I'll remind you, Cefin, that despite the huge hit our budget took as a Government, where our budget was worth £700 million less from the time of the last spending review, we still protected the funding that went to local government for schools and we also increased our funding that goes directly to schools through the local authority education grant. You asked about consequentials. You will have seen that the Labour Government last week delivered extra funding for Wales, and I'm sure you'll understand that as a Government we need to consider what that means for us. That money will be prioritised by the Cabinet in line with Government priorities, and, of course, education is one.”
“Unless you're suggesting that I should be delivering all of these things myself, I think that having things like a professional learning organisation is really important. You've raised concerns about professional learning in this Chamber yourself; you know that teachers have said that there is white noise around professional learning, and this is part of making it a more coherent offer for everyone. Just in terms of your reference to behaviour, I'll just reiterate what I said to Tom, which is that I'm meeting the unions on 18 November. I have made the offer on several occasions to work closely with trade unions on behaviour issues in schools, and we've also got the focus on behaviour in the headteachers' conference this Friday.”
“In terms of the review of the school improvement partnership programme—and I can't work out quite where all the groups you think are that are supporting me—I've announced one group today, which is directly advising me. That is a ministerial advisory group that is going to provide advice and challenge to me. The national coherence group is going to check that the work that is being taken, through what is a major piece of work with the school improvement partnership programme, is being done in a sensible and coherent way, looking at those local authority partnerships and making sure that they are going to deliver on the system. The other things that we've announced—things like the strengthened school improvement team in the Welsh Government, the professional learning body—are actually going to be delivering things.”
“Thank you very much, Cefin, for your comments. If I can just say in relation to PISA, as I said to Tom Giffard, I was very clear that our last PISA results were not where we wanted them to be and that has been part of what has driven my prioritisation of raising attainment and standards. We owe it to all our children and young people to enable them all to do the very best that they can. You've highlighted the work with the OECD as if that's a weakness; I think that is a strength and we continue to work with the OECD. And the OECD have also said to us that we are doing the right things in the approaches that we're taking with education. Obviously, change does take time.”
“But I can give you the assurance that I am keen to do everything I can to make sure that we value the role of our excellent support staff, and that's not just about money, it's about making sure that they've got access to professional learning opportunities and the recognition they deserve.”
“As with all things, I will make the decision based on what is best to deliver for children and young people in Wales. Thank you too for your welcome for the 5.5 per cent pay raise for teachers. I'm sure you will also want to welcome the fact that it's a partnership with the Labour Government in Westminster that has enabled that pay rise to be delivered for all our hard-working teachers. Just finally to say on school support staff that I really value the role of support staff. It's an area that I really want to expand as a member of this Government, working closely with them, but I'm sure you'll be aware that the terms and conditions of school support staff are currently a matter for negotiation with local government. It's a different system.”
“I am meeting trade unions on 18 November to have a focused look at what we can be doing more of in tackling behaviour problems. I've got a headteachers secondary school conference on Friday, and there is a focus on behaviour in that. We're developing a behaviour toolkit for schools and we've got research that we've commissioned on behaviour, so there is plenty of work going on in the behaviour space. But I think it's also really important to recognise that the problems of behaviour are coming into schools because of wider societal problems that schools are then picking up the pieces on. So, these are complex issues. Thank you for what you said about TIMSS and PIRLS, and I'm very happy to confirm that I'm actively considering that.”
“There is no one silver bullet that is going to tackle this problem, and now that the attendance taskforce have done that work, we will be able to take forward a series of actions that I want to see raise attendance standards to what they were before the pandemic. We've already invested massively, £6.5 million, in family engagement officers who are going out, working with families who've got those complex needs and challenges, to make sure the children can come in to school, and we're looking at other barriers as well around things like transport. You mentioned behaviour, which I referred to in my statement. You may not have seen, Tom, that I copied all Members into the letter to the schools social partnership forum. We are taking action on this.”
“And also in relation to the IFS report, can I remind you that the young people who did the PISA tests that were the basis of the IFS report have not been through the new curriculum? You referred to attendance, and I said very clearly in my statement that I’ll be making a further statement on attendance, which is in the business statement for December. We have made a slight improvement. It’s nowhere near good enough, and I want to see a much bigger improvement, especially for children who are on free school meals. We are taking lots of action in this space. Our attendance taskforce has really carefully considered what are very complex reasons why children aren’t coming to school.”
“You constantly talk about the IFS report, and I’ve said in this Chamber there were some serious issues in the IFS report that we are taking very seriously, but I can tell you emphatically that me taking an ideological approach to education is not one of them. You referred again to the curriculum and you highlighted the fact that I didn’t say very much about the curriculum. Can I remind you that I made a curriculum statement back in July, which you weren’t here for? I’m very happy to provide—[ Interruption .] Yes, I’ve mentioned it quite a few times because you keep showing that you still haven't looked at what I said. [ Interruption .] I set out a very clear plan of support that we are putting in to enable our curriculum to be developed effectively.”
“Well, thank you very much, Tom, for that speech. I will try and pick up on as many of the points that I can. I wanted to start, though, by absolutely refuting your suggestion that I am being in any way ideological. That is simply not the way that I work. My only interest in doing this job is to deliver for children and young people, and we will find the very best ways to do that. I also think that you cannot say that I have doubled down on anything, actually. I’ve been very transparent and open since coming into this role about the challenges that we face in education. I’ve been honest about what we’re going to do and have recognised that there is more work to do.”
“Nonetheless, I do not shy away from the challenges we face. Learner attendance, attitudes to learning and attainment are weaker than before the pandemic. Schools are dealing with changes in society and learners with increasingly complex needs. And they are stepping up to meet these challenges.”
“Thank you, acting Dirprwy Lywydd. I took up this role because I am passionate about making a positive difference to children and young people. Their futures and the future of Wales requires all our children and young people to succeed. We need to work together to make this happen. Acting Dirprwy Lywydd, there is much to celebrate about our education provision. It is worth remembering that this summer we saw some fantastic achievements in GCSEs and A-levels, particularly at the top grades. We also saw our performance broadly in line with 2019, which is what we had hoped to see. I hope that everyone here will welcome the achievements of our pupils, their teachers and our support staff. I want to extend my thanks to all of you working to improve the lives and life chances of learners in Wales.”