YouSaid · the spoken record

Andrea Matwyshyn

lines on the record: 78
first: 2019-12-04
most recent: 2019-12-04
sittings or episodes: 1
sources: podcast

Every line below is reproduced as it was said and linked to the record it came from. Nothing here is summarised or generated. Directory · Search · Corrections

“How do you get that out? And Does your employer still potentially get to track you? Wow. Well, Dr. Matuitian, thank you so much for joining Reco Decode for this enlightening, fascinating conversation. Thank you for raising the questions you're raising and hope to have you back again in a few months or in a year to hear what's new in the field. Love to. Thank you.”
2019-12-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Andrea Matwyshyn · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Well, if it's your phone that's tracking you, you can just turn it off or put it in the Faraday bag. But if a device is in your body, how do you get that out? And employers are chipping their employees increasingly frequently so you leave your job and what do you do about the chip that's in you? Does your employer still potentially get to track you?”
2019-12-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Andrea Matwyshyn · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Connected these devices and planted them in their bodies had ever anticipated. So people sometimes get twitchy about their employers or their insurers knowing exactly where they are, how fast they're driving.”
2019-12-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Andrea Matwyshyn · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“The court, under current bankruptcy law, may, but does not have to, appoint a privacy ombudsman, but the bankruptcy trustee, the privacy ombudsman, they're not explicitly consumer representatives. And the FTC sometimes intervenes in bankruptcies of databases of particularly sensitive information. But again, limited bandwidth agency. So as these bankruptcies get more common, we're going to end up with these databases and potentially contract rights into some of the”
2019-12-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Andrea Matwyshyn · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Set of providers or single provider share that information usually in their sole discretion with whomever they wish. So it might be for marketing purposes, it might be for law enforcement purposes through the third party doctrine, or it might be because they go into bankruptcy and because in bankruptcy the primary interests are the interests of the creditors who funded the company.”
2019-12-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Andrea Matwyshyn · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And so while we're worried about having 16 different flavors of the same kind of IoT gadget, we're not thinking through what we're losing in the degree of connectivity and competition. So that's one thing that I noticed. But the thing that really keeps me up at night is, and this may be a little lawn nerdy, but secure transactions and bankruptcy law and the databases that are generated from this. Set of devices. So let's say that you have a live feed coming from your eyes or a live feed coming from your brain and you have a contractual service relationship where some companies storing this information in the cloud for you and you can search it, et cetera. So those agreements that you've signed let that”
2019-12-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Andrea Matwyshyn · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“So here's one of the things that I worry about, that we are not by design but by accident eliminating the ability to buy less connected things. So if you've ever tried to buy a car recently, trying to buy a car that doesn't have hundreds of millions of lines of code and tracks your location at all times is becoming basically impossible for a new car.”
2019-12-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Andrea Matwyshyn · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“May end up Oh gos So that'll motivate technology companies to think differently about it potentially. I guess last question What have I not asked? What is the thing you want people to know or understand that kind of keeps you up at night? Or ask what is your, what is your bottom line?”
2019-12-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Andrea Matwyshyn · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Exactly. So those are the social dynamics. It's not clear who the winners and losers are, which I find particularly interesting, because the most augmented among us...”
2019-12-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Andrea Matwyshyn · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Depending on how those risks are disclosed, depending on how they analyze this, they may think they're doing a wonderful thing for their child by helping the child. Engage with the world in an augmented way. But as we've discussed, that comes with risks. Imagine...”
2019-12-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Andrea Matwyshyn · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“So some of the earliest litigation that I might expect around these slightly more aggressive Internet of Bodies devices will come in the context of parents wanting to augment their children. So imagine a very competitive school district where parents with significant discretionary income want to well-intentioned parents want to give their kids an edge by improving their memory. Physically with extra storage capacity the way you upgrade your laptop.”
2019-12-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Andrea Matwyshyn · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Or you want to live in a world as you are that you appreciate. This has come up in court cases dealing with whether kids can be forced to have cochlear implants. And the cases are not clean on this.”
2019-12-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Andrea Matwyshyn · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Apart from the dignitary aspect of it, like as a dignity manner, obviously, I understand where they're coming from. But as a technical matter, the more I learned about the way that cochlear implants work, the more I started to see the pushback. Cochlear implants don't create hearing in the way that non-deaf person hears. Instead, if you're a candidate for a cochlear implant, what they need to do is they need to kill the remaining hearing in that ear. and give you a different kind of hearing that's mechanically created.”
2019-12-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Andrea Matwyshyn · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“That they needed to be fixed. They didn't viewed themselves that way. And especially as you dig into how cochlear implants work, you start to see where they're coming from because”
2019-12-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Andrea Matwyshyn · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Hearing aids could be potentially compromised depending on how they're coded. But the cochlear implants are interesting because they raise the social questions that some other technologies haven't. So the deaf community has a strong community identity. And so the arrival of cochlear implants, and I'm not talking about currently, I'm talking about sort of historically, this has been going on, was a source of intra-group discussion and divergent opinions because for some members of the community, the cochlear implant was viewed as a delegitimization of the way that they were born.”
2019-12-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Andrea Matwyshyn · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Well, and so now, you know, imagine that it's not just your AirPod, it's implanted surgically in your ear, right? And so cochlear implants are really great case study. So hearing.”
2019-12-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Andrea Matwyshyn · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“So that's how I approach my own life. Every device, there's a phone sitting here right now. And I could, in theory, walk around with the phone in a Faraday bag, but then that would limit its functionality. And I need that functionality to be able to work with it. But at the same time, am I aware that even though I have Bluetooth turned off and I have my Wi-Fi turned off and I will take those extra steps to disable those, which not everyone does. So that's one thing that maybe I'm more vigilant.”
2019-12-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Andrea Matwyshyn · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“That can be wonderful enhancers of our lives will inevitably be repurposed by darker forces to be used against us in whatever ways are possible”
2019-12-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Andrea Matwyshyn · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Yeah, I have such a love-hate relationship with my gadgets. So, you know, on the one hand, I think the internet is this amazing, transformative thing that changed so many people's lives for the better. I love being able to chit chat with my friend in Australia at the same time as, you know, my friend in France, my friend in the UK, staggered schedules. Like, that's amazing. And that's not something that existed when I grew up. So I'm dating myself here. But I was in the first class of freshmen when I got to college who got email accounts. We were talking Telnet, right? And then browsers came and these amazing pictures. And I'm like, okay, this is the thing. This is going to be good. So life is better. Life is better in some ways. But then, you know, we didn't anticipate well enough in the way that people would repurpose these technologies. And that's the joy and pain of all of these technologies. They're dual use. So these things.”
2019-12-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Andrea Matwyshyn · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“So, well, okay, so glad you're doing this research. And then there's a community of people doing it so that we can understand it better. So let me ask you this one of my last questions. What are your personal habits when it comes to devices and privacy? As someone in the field who is aware of the dangers of not just the Internet of Bodies, but the Internet of Things, how do you personally, what's your relationship with technology? What are your hard no's? would you ever have a you know smart prosthetic arm or an artificial pancreas”
2019-12-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Andrea Matwyshyn · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Obviously, lenders, insurers would love to have a real time feed from your brain. Or if that's too far out for folks, imagine a real-time feed from the injected contact lenses in your eyes. And those are things, so the contact lenses have already been patented by multiple companies. So this isn't a fictional product that I've made up. There are already patents from major tech companies for injected lenses performing various functions.”
2019-12-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Andrea Matwyshyn · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“It's a serious group, and that And to set up structures to protect. Yeah, and because these issues are so complicated and they're bound up with those contract issues we were talking about and the trade practices issues about how companies acquire companies and what they decide to do with those relevant areas. All of that is a big kind of stew. And so you really need a focused group of people who work on these issues and they need finding authority and they need guidance making authority to keep up with the times a little bit better. And the next gen issue in my mind that we're already seeing play out that would also fall into the scope is the set of issues around social credit. Right.”
2019-12-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Andrea Matwyshyn · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“So there's a need for a cross functional serious group that doesn't currently exist. And I don't even think this president, we have a chief technology officer anymore. I don't know that we have, anyways, it's really interesting to think about how important it is to think ahead, right? And to set up structures to protect Americans and really anyone in society that is going to be using these devices.”
2019-12-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Andrea Matwyshyn · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“But something like a digital pill, which is inside the body, that also might not be a medical device. But then we get into things like the augmented reality contact lenses. Well, that's really in the body, but yet it's not performing a diagnostic function of a disease, which is generally the way there's a real need.”
2019-12-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Andrea Matwyshyn · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“There are, I think, fairly identified scaling issues in that agency. So what I would propose is that I think they need an injection of additional lines and a new practice group. I think they need a technology practices group that looks at these issues broadly. And within that technology practices group, you would have teams that work with other agencies in partner relationships. So for example, an IOB team that would work with the FDA to help determine where the line is between a medical device and merely a health and healthy living kind of device. Yeah, right. So the Fitbits were not medical devices. Nice to have.”
2019-12-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Andrea Matwyshyn · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I think it needs to be a shared effort across multiple agencies. So there are little bits of these questions that impact the work of multiple regulators. So the Federal Trade Commission has traditionally engaged with consumer products and marketing and advertising practices, but they're a comparatively small agency. So as we've seen in the discussions over, say, tech antitrusting,”
2019-12-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Andrea Matwyshyn · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“This is the wild west. This is the Wild West. So these conversations are ones that are simultaneously happening in Europe. So I'm actually talking about the Internet of Bodies with the Council of Europe in November. So they're thinking about this stuff. They care about it. It's directly in line with the deeper thinking behind GDPR, the data protection regulation that went into effect recently. But on the other hand, there is this counterpoint and push toward data portability, maximum sharing of information, et cetera, which has clear benefits, but it also potentially comes with risks if it's not done carefully to intersect with these security concerns, particularly as software and hardware uses the human body as a technology platform and comes with the risk of physical harm as well as”
2019-12-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Andrea Matwyshyn · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Pristinely controllable as robotic parts would be, you know, footnote yesterday when my laptop crashed and I had to restart it or when my phone app malfunctioned, I don't know that our ecosystem is ideally stable so that it's fair to say that we have a pristinely controlled robotic environment. But nevertheless, so is the human body, this last gen carbon operating system. On the other hand,”
2019-12-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Andrea Matwyshyn · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“So that's the question that we really need to step back and ask ourselves, is that the society we want to build? And the baseline that exists, I think, across industry, across academia, across consumers, and across judges and regulators, I don't think there's a shared baseline on what we're building. And that's one of the things that worries me. So if you think about the default of what a human body is, is it just a carbon-based operating system that's last gen and needs to be upgraded as soon as possible because it's not as”
2019-12-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Andrea Matwyshyn · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“That you might not have anticipated. I can imagine, I don't know who would say this. This is a very cynical point of view. I was going to say the tech company, so I don't know. You imagine someone saying, well, that's just like the cost of this new society. might have this is the deal you signed the user license agreement you said that if the software was discontinued your product wouldn't work and so be it”
2019-12-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Andrea Matwyshyn · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Well, exactly, right? So if it's a home hub, okay, your lights don't go on, your hate doesn't go on, your front door may not open. But if it's your prosthetic arm, You're suddenly experiencing a whole other level of dysfunction and inconvenience and potentially expense and pain and suffering, as you were referencing earlier, if you have this robotic arm that is attached to your body, sutured into your body, which is what the next generation of prosthetics is. It's interwoven with the mechanics and the bits and bytes weaving into the corpus, the flesh and bone of humans. When you have that level of interconnection, it creates new levels of functionality, which is great for the users, but it also adds this next level of risk that someone who remotely has access to the code base, either for updating purposes or bricking purposes, has”
2019-12-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Andrea Matwyshyn · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“The anticipation of large scale annoyance didn't happen when they were debating whether to break this device. So imagine it's not a home hub.”
2019-12-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Andrea Matwyshyn · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Did Google send everyone new NUS? Yeah, there was, I can't remember exactly how they compensated the impacted consumers, but they made it go away. But it was a little troubling to me that”
2019-12-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Andrea Matwyshyn · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“So the consumers who had purchased these hubs thought they were buying something without a death date in the near future. But because all of this software is partially wrapped up with end user license agreements, the Eulahs that we all click yes on and websites and that nobody really reads. All of these devices have software that comes with Eulah's. And so when the people who bought that software, well, the home hub that came with the software, when they agreed to that, it meant that a newly acquired could basically shut off access to that device. So not only was it deemed obsolete, but they actually bricked, they killed the devices through a remote update, which enraged the cybers, as you can imagine. So the internet exploded in annoyance. And ultimately... It was resolved with some.”
2019-12-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Andrea Matwyshyn · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Yeah, or sometimes I fear it might be even more kind of aggressive. So if you look at the way that some acquisitions in tech are happening, there's a famous incident with, well, famous in nerd circles. And Stacey's a nerd circle, Andrea, you're good. That's why I feel so at home. So there was this home hub company called Revolve that was purchased by the Nest unit of Google. whatever internal reasons they decided to deactivate the home hubs.”
2019-12-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Andrea Matwyshyn · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“To bacon and it wasn't disclosed, you've just exposed yourself to a whole layer of risk that you might not know was there. And so that's something else that we've seen happening with IoT. I call that a builder bias where there's a push to ship fast and to get it out there and then, oh, we'll clean up security and privacy questions later. That doesn't work when the possible harm and the costs are human bodies being damaged in potentially permanent ways. That model of shipping fast and hard does not work. And that's where the law is going to inevitably step in. Because even the least tech savvy judges are not going to be okay with bricked arms and physical damage happening.”
2019-12-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Andrea Matwyshyn · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“That's my hope. So by identifying these problems, I'm hoping that we build thoughtfully and we don't build just because we can. So I call this the better with bacon problem, the way that some chefs love to throw bacon on everything. In IoT, we sort of love to throw internet connectivity on everything, whether it really enhances the experience of the product or not. So if you really love bacon and you get that surprise bacon that was undisclosed on the menu or even if it was disclosed and you can't parse it out, it's blended in, you really love bacon. You're like, oh, awesome, bacon, yum. But if you're a vegetarian and say the bacon wasn't disclosed on the menu or you can't pick it out, you have a completely different experience with that particular meal. And in fact, it may destroy the meal for you. And say you have an allergy.”
2019-12-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Andrea Matwyshyn · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Reading someone a certain way. And that's so interesting because when I think about the struggles that Google and Facebook are having right now around manipulation of their products by the Russians or by other entities, other networks that have, shall we say, an axe to grind and a political belief to push propaganda misinformation, it's already kind of happening, right? Like people believe they've come up with these ideas themselves, but really they've been manipulated by misinformation. And so I think what you're talking about is almost the next step. And by the way, it just so pisses me off because it's like humanity is so impacted by this technology. And what you're painting is the next level. Maybe they'll actually help technology companies understand how information is.”
2019-12-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Andrea Matwyshyn · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Capabilities that can all get potentially harnessed into a botnet and be pointed at a power grid or a hospital. Or other sensitive targets. And so you may end up with your body unwittingly participating in criminal attacks, in distributed denial of service attacks, and you might not even know it.”
2019-12-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Andrea Matwyshyn · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“In some cases based on best available reported information, it means that a remote attacker might be able to write things to people's brains. We've kind of built a world that presupposes that we come up with our opinions independently. And then having thought about things, we exercise autonomous acts, everything from what we buy to how we vote to the conversations we have. But in the world where there's a chip with potentially a remote third party interacting with your brain, we start to see a little bit of a slide in being able to identify what are really our thoughts and what are really someone else's thoughts. Never mind the idea of harnessing these devices, whether it's the artificial pancreases or it's the brain implants or it's injected Contact lenses that help you play games better with fancier AR.”
2019-12-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Andrea Matwyshyn · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Sure. And I shouldn't laugh at any of this because unfortunately it's looming. So the one that deeply worries me with respect to the brain implants, because these are devices that allow for reading and writing in the design that's being”
2019-12-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Andrea Matwyshyn · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“It's like, yeah, it's like when I go see my parents whom I love dearly, but I walk in the door. Hi, how are you? Here's everything that's broken. So what's the second?”
2019-12-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Andrea Matwyshyn · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“They're going to call you soul. And the user support line may or may not understand even how to address something like this. And one of the concerns is that we see only limited education happening in medical schools and in nursing schools and in other places even of health professionals. So the doctor that prescribed that device may not know how to handle it. So the patient may then call a grandchild and instead of asking the grandchild to help them turn the machine off and on again, it's about turning the artificial pancreas on and off again or figuring out, you know, I can just see this universe of grandkids sitting in a different state trying to figure out how to send Bitcoin to say grandma's life.”
2019-12-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Andrea Matwyshyn · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“To this address. Okay, so those patients may not know what Bitcoin is. They may not know how their artificial pancreas works. They're going to call a user.”
2019-12-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Andrea Matwyshyn · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Hardware, software, machines, and these devices, whether they're in the body or outside the body, they're just computers. Anytime you have vulnerable machines, those machines can potentially be compromised and owned, controlled by a remote third party if the vulnerability is severe enough. So I'll give you two worst case scenarios. One is directly off of WannaCry and the other is kind of the worst case scenario of what can happen with the brain implants in those third generation devices that we were just talking about. So imagine that instead of hospital machines getting hijacked with ransomware, imagine that it is a nursing home full of elderly patients with artificial pancreases, and they get some sort of notification on their phones. Your pancreas is going to be shut down remotely unless you send a Bitcoin.”
2019-12-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Andrea Matwyshyn · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Swallow exactly a situation Sure. So one of the things that security professionals are really good at doing is extrapolating from prior attacks. So some of us remember the WannaCry ransomware epidemic that hit us. So it was a malicious piece of code that hijacked machines in hospitals in the National Health Service and in other places. And so what happened in that case is that we got lucky in a security researcher happened to stumble upon a URL that the attackers had not registered and he was able to redirect and stem the attack in that case. But anytime you have a set of”
2019-12-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Andrea Matwyshyn · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“So, oh, that's tough for tech to swallow a situation that can't be controlled. So let's talk about, let's go dark for a minute. Let's talk about some of the unintended consequences. Like I actually want to understand examples of like what could possibly happen if a you know internet of body, if one of these devices implanted, melted into you goes wrong, doesn't get updated, has some kind of security issue, like what is one to two examples that you think really, you know, I mean, listen, I think your role when I worked at Twitter, I like absolutely love the trust and safety team because they were always coming up with the worst case scenario of what could possibly Twitter could be used for. And, you know, this was like in 2010. And I mean, they are doing the best they can, I think. But it was always very helpful to have that kind of sober perspective in the room. And I feel like this is a bit what you're offering, right? Like, and it can be a bit of a”
2019-12-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Andrea Matwyshyn · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“So in this case, it just meant that the patient had to go to the doctor and have the doctor update the software on the device. So what a recall means in the context of Internet of Bodies devices is also going to be case specific. And that's some of the nuance that we're dealing with here. It's all of the nuances of hardware and software engineering layered onto the nuances of the human body as a weird environment that can't be controlled in the same ways.”
2019-12-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Andrea Matwyshyn · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“FDA or FTC overseeing it. Exactly. And that's changed now because of the FDA's increased involvement. We recently had a company with Pacemaker vulnerability that initially denied the existence of the vulnerability, sued the researcher. The FDA issued a recall on the pacemaker system. And that was an important moment in the history of patient safety and in these Internet of Body Devices.”
2019-12-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Andrea Matwyshyn · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Well, nobody wants to hear their babies ugly, right? Yeah. So if there's something going wrong, it may mean a significant expenditure of time and talent redirecting personnel to address a security flaw. And sometimes companies aren't thrilled with making that reallocation.”
2019-12-04 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Andrea Matwyshyn · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT