YouSaid · the spoken record

Andrew Marantz

lines on the record: 142
first: 2019-10-09
most recent: 2019-10-09
sittings or episodes: 1
sources: podcast

Every line below is reproduced as it was said and linked to the record it came from. Nothing here is summarised or generated. Directory · Search · Corrections

“Just yeah, totally addictive, broken, nobody knows what's true. I mean, on every level, this is where I agree with the Tristan Harris kind of argument that this is a civilizational crisis. And they... The vanguard of doing that But they weren't able to both do that and also allow themselves to be at the center of the discourse. So they kind of, they, a lot of them faded away or will fade away, exactly. But so they couldn't get to the promised land”
2019-10-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "Antisocial" author Andrew Marantz · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And so the kind of conclusion, it's not like an argument driven book, but the kind of spoiler alert, the narrative conclusion is they didn't break the, they didn't stretch the Overton window to the point where they themselves could fit inside it. They were kind of the kamikaze They were the front lines of the people who sacrificed themselves in order to break the Overton window. So their larger goal of breaking our informational architecture was successful. We now live in a broken informational world.”
2019-10-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "Antisocial" author Andrew Marantz · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“The Overton window has moved. That's the window of public opinion that's potentially possible. But again, to use that example, people always talk about the good things. But the Overton window could also move toward fascism just to take a random example. So the goal of Breitbart and all of his foot soldiers who came after, the Cernoviches, the whoever, is to move the Overton window in their direction or to just break it all together.”
2019-10-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "Antisocial" author Andrew Marantz · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“The Overton window, it starts in public policy. It's this notion that what was once unthinkable can become totally matter-of-fact. Marriage equality was once you couldn't even bring it up. Now it's like, of course.”
2019-10-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "Antisocial" author Andrew Marantz · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“That's still being debated A lot of And this is part of when I was doing that initial exploration. I was like, there are great journalists exploring the Russia thing, and I'm very interested in what they turn up. But we could look at the stuff that's happening in front of our eyes and get a lot more information. Of what Americans are doing to Americans by Americans”
2019-10-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "Antisocial" author Andrew Marantz · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Yeah, the public, I mean, they could be privately owned, but there are these big spaces where people go. I mean, I think there obviously is validity to the claim that you can't just take down anything that rubs you the wrong way. But this notion that if a private company has rules and I violate those rules and I am kicked off, then I am a victim of 1984”
2019-10-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "Antisocial" author Andrew Marantz · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Exactly. And that is a very strong branding. And look, I mean, it has to be said. Free speech is a good value to hold. Censorship is bad. Like all those things. I mean, to the extent that Facebook and Twitter are so big that they are effectively, you know,”
2019-10-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "Antisocial" author Andrew Marantz · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“When there's a conflict we leave it at. One of the arguments they make is this public square thing, which they are not public squares. They are private squares owned by billionaires. What then happens, because these online extremists then do have an ability to tug on the feeling of free speech, to tug on the idea that we shouldn't regulate this.”
2019-10-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "Antisocial" author Andrew Marantz · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Because I think, again, through cultural osmosis, they have intuited free speech good. So, when there's a conflict, especially in the beginning, when there's a conflict, we leave it at”
2019-10-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "Antisocial" author Andrew Marantz · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And I don't, I think you're right that they did not intend. I don't think there's some, you know, Jack Dorsey was twirling his non-existent mustache and saying, I will arm the Nazis with the perfect tool. I mean, I don't think that.”
2019-10-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "Antisocial" author Andrew Marantz · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Well, I'll get into that. I mean, that's a whole different story. Their approach to philanthropy is, let us tell you what the problems of the world are. And I'm like, I don't think you did, why don't you fix the things you're supposed to be capable of fixing? Why don't you stay out of education? Why don't you stay at? I mean, that's unanimed Gearguardos. It's like, let's just tax you and let them think.”
2019-10-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "Antisocial" author Andrew Marantz · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Right. Well, that's why I call them big swinging brains because I think they do think of themselves as luminaries. And I think they do want to have legacies and they want to be philanthropists and they want to, so like, I think there is something there to appeal to.”
2019-10-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "Antisocial" author Andrew Marantz · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Not me, but go ahead. Yes, but you're right, fanboys, the fanbo And in a way, I think the heart of that, I think, is salvageable is that I don't think they're just motivated by profit. I think they do think that's why”
2019-10-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "Antisocial" author Andrew Marantz · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Sure. But there was this weird misconception in the press. I mean, if you want to talk about the way the press Acts toward them, there was a long period where it was like these are different kinds of businesses, they think different, you know, they're not just motivated by profit.”
2019-10-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "Antisocial" author Andrew Marantz · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“No other industry that was birthed the way they were birthed with no regulation, with capital everywhere, with they could do whatever they wanted, and nobody criticized them. And then suddenly people start criticizing them and they go, oh, look, I think now the bloom is off the rose a little bit and now you have Andreessen Harowitz just funding Palmer Lucky building a wall. Yeah. They can no longer claim to be hippies”
2019-10-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "Antisocial" author Andrew Marantz · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“The press. I just had a debate with someone online. They're like, and it was all about the press. I'm like, I feel like we're really not even the point. We're not the problem. Well, the other thing is, and it's so hard.”
2019-10-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "Antisocial" author Andrew Marantz · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Because it's in the future and the future is better. So that's what I mean by techno-utopianism. It's the techno part is we're going to be the ones to build it and get rich off of it. And the utopian part is we're moving you into the future. It's inevitable anyway. We're just speeding it up. And whatever it is exactly, it'll be better than what we have now. And in a way, I don't know that they've really let go of that because I think they go Well, we've hit a few bumps along the road. Yeah, there's a few people in office who are kind of autocratic and maybe we'll have a nuclear war here or there. But in the long run, it'll be good. And it's like, where are you getting that guarantee from?”
2019-10-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "Antisocial" author Andrew Marantz · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“So I think that's this notion that wherever we go forward, we'll end up in a utopia. We are going to end up with markets creating wealth, free markets of ideas creating... A consensus that will move toward the truth. And frankly, when you ask them what their utopia, I mean, as you just said, when you ask them what their utopia looked like, they didn't have a clear answer. It wasn't like, Okay, well, we'll have flying cars by this date and we'll have universal health care by this date. It wasn't planned out. It was just, it'll be better.”
2019-10-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "Antisocial" author Andrew Marantz · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Yes, I'll break it or I'll make it cooler. There's a better way to do this. I'll disrupt it. But like, you don't always have to build a new tool. That's not always going to help.”
2019-10-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "Antisocial" author Andrew Marantz · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“So I call these guys big swinging brains because they want to be the big brain in the room. And some of them are very big brain, you know, but like. The way they use their brains is not, again, to go back to reporty, it's not flexible, it's not ironic, it's not constantly turning in on itself and asking itself, am I doing the right thing? The way they use their brains is to press forward”
2019-10-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "Antisocial" author Andrew Marantz · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Yes. Like right now. So, this is. So, you know, Michael Lewis in Lyars Poker, he has this thing big swinging dicks, right? Right. Yes. In the finance world.”
2019-10-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "Antisocial" author Andrew Marantz · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Left libertarian. I I think that's fair. I'm like, that's not what that is. It is very shallow. I mean, Adam Smith says in his fundamental text, we need regulation.”
2019-10-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "Antisocial" author Andrew Marantz · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Never, I guess. No. I'm not going to let him off with it. So, but talk about their technocopian roots because it was out of sort of a very left hippie, not left exactly. Left libertarian. I call them libertarian. I call them libertarian light. You call the alt-light. I call them libertarian light. I think that's fair. When I try to press them on it since I actually went to college, I'm like, that's not what that is. So they have a version of libertarianism that is so shallow that I can't even begin to, you know, they just don't understand what they're saying.”
2019-10-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "Antisocial" author Andrew Marantz · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Well, and I will say one of the few silver linings, it's not a hugely silver lining e book, but I do think if Clinton had won in 2016, the conversation with the tech guys would be totally different. That forced them, I mean, that and Brexit and Bolsonaro and all these other things. They suddenly go, oh, there's a wall. We can't just keep going forever. And maybe didn't do that internally. That might have been public opinion shifting and regulation and all these other things that they saw coming, but we're now in a very different place where they, you know, Mark Zuckerberg is writing these notes saying we saw the ugliness of humanity and I'm so sorry because I didn't anticipate this. And it's kind of like, well, maybe could have or should have.”
2019-10-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "Antisocial" author Andrew Marantz · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“It seems like they just think forward. We're just going to go forward and it'll be great. It's like, is there a cliff there? Is there a wall there? Like where are we going? And they don't have to.”
2019-10-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "Antisocial" author Andrew Marantz · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Right. Well, I noticed that I'm always stuck on the move fast and break things. I was like, why'd you use the word break? They never can answer that question. What's wrong with that? I'm like, oh, it's a different word than change. It's a different word. And change is even a problem, like change for what? What's the way you go?”
2019-10-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "Antisocial" author Andrew Marantz · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Right. But the guys who are building the internet, and they are guys They're not reading a lot in the humanities. They're not like questioning we were talking about before. They're not asking these deep philosophical questions. They're picking up through cultural osmosis. Oh, free speech good. Historical progress, inevitable. I'll just throw these tools out there and we'll be good. I'll make the speech as free as possible. There will be a marketplace of ideas. Markets move things forward through competition and whatever. And it'll all be whatever.”
2019-10-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "Antisocial" author Andrew Marantz · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“So I think it's related to this Kennedy idea that, and this Obama idea, frankly, that, you know, there's a certain safety in where we are, that we have this broad consensus. We've decided that we are going to be a nation of nations. We've decided we're going to have this multi-ethnic fabric, and that's over. And now we can move forward.”
2019-10-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "Antisocial" author Andrew Marantz · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Right. They found it more comfortable and they just want to just hide in the past and that's not possible for them anymore.”
2019-10-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "Antisocial" author Andrew Marantz · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“We can draw on the darkest impulses of people and we can do it in just a clever enough way that they feel, well, I'm not racist. I just think this particular black athlete should shut up, or I just think this particular Jew is a rootless cosmopolitan, or I just don't want this particular woman to be president. So they are just good enough at disguising it and drawing people in to what a lot of the alt-right guys refer to as a pathway toward full radicalization. I mean, it's like any other radicalization technique. You start where people are and you draw them in. I think one thing that the really hardcore white nationalist guys and actually the left really do agree on, and I think they're both right, is that America was set up to be a country for white men. And the difference is that they're trying to go live in that past. Because they are”
2019-10-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "Antisocial" author Andrew Marantz · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Really, I would say. And they have again like Breitbart has this insight about politics as downstream from culture. Spencer and Cernovich and all these guys have the insight that, oh, your nice little consensus that you thought was all agreed on and the end of history and that's all settled, it's not settled”
2019-10-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "Antisocial" author Andrew Marantz · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And I'm like, it kind of is. Look in the mirror. You may want to look at a mirror. Or the alternate to that, besides this is not who we are, is we can be better. I'm like, can we? Because these tools, these tools.”
2019-10-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "Antisocial" author Andrew Marantz · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Well, yeah, so there's this Obama notion that when we're playing Little League or when we're at church, we have more in common than we think. I don't dispute that. What I dispute is that there's this thing called a consensus that is the fact and everything else is the aberration. I don't really think that's true. Yeah, you could draw an American history that's all about white supremacy and all about misogyny. So these things have always coexisted. And I think the mistake we made philosophically is in thinking that one was the real thing and the other was the aberration.”
2019-10-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "Antisocial" author Andrew Marantz · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And the tools and the assumption that we're on a path, you know, there's always been from even Lincoln, I mean, but to Kennedy to Obama, to Bush, there's always been this assumption that we're on a path toward a more perfect union. We're marching there slowly, but progress is happening inevitably. Yes, there's a lunatic fringe, but there'll always be off to the side, and there's what Kennedy calls the great American consensus will always prevail. The great American consensus.”
2019-10-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "Antisocial" author Andrew Marantz · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Because they had before been sort of off to the side in the holes, in the dark places. They've never been able to be articulated in quite the same way. This is not something new. It's just the way they articulate themselves has changed.”
2019-10-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "Antisocial" author Andrew Marantz · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Oh, Richard's Spencer is I call some of these people not quite Nazis because there's this kind of fine distinction where, well, I'm technically not a Nazi because I want an American form of ethno-nationalism, not a German form of ethno-nationalism. But, you know, he's a racist and anti-Semite. He's had this incredibly violent past where he beats up women. And I mean, just every bad thing. And again, like, I was not like, ooh, I'd really love to go to Alexandria and get tacos with a bad guy. Like, that was not my motivation. My motivation was... Wow, it's 2017, 2018, 2019, and this guy is a player in our national discourse. Right. Because we have these notions that”
2019-10-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "Antisocial" author Andrew Marantz · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Example. Talk about him. Well, he's still on Twitter too. David Duke is still on Twitter. I mean, there are some Twitter has clearly made.”
2019-10-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "Antisocial" author Andrew Marantz · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“In these places. And what is the state of them now? Because they certainly, I think these things tend to flash themselves out in terms of, but you're writing this book, you're talking about the idea of online extremists. There are some that are using these tools quite effectively. Richard Spencer, for example. Talk about him.”
2019-10-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "Antisocial" author Andrew Marantz · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I don't know where this entered the discourse from. Like, how did we start talking about anchor babies? How did we start talking about Mexicans are rapists? Like all this insane stuff. And it's usually the answer.”
2019-10-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "Antisocial" author Andrew Marantz · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Exactly. So, although Pulitzer made papers like that too. So he's going to be in the White House. So I was like, okay, I'll go with you to the White House. So then that becomes this whole DC scene of Cassandra Fairbanks, who worked for Sputnik, which was a Russian-owned government-owned outlet. This guy, Luke Radowski, who had a YouTube channel called We Are Change. It's all these things that, again, it's not like all bold-faced names. Lauren Southern is this other woman who they all worked at this thing called the Rebel, Jack Pasobic, worked at the Rebel, Laura Loomer worked at the Rebel. So these are all like. They shift around, they go to different media outlets, none of them is ever going to be like the next Fox News pundit. But they all have this incredible behind the scenes influence where you go,”
2019-10-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "Antisocial" author Andrew Marantz · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Exactly right. It's like, oh, it's gross, and they have reality shows. And it's like, okay, but this is going to take over the world. So Lucian Wintrich at the Gateway Pundit is like, you should pay attention to me. I was kind of brushing him off. And then he goes up on stage and they make this announcement. Lucian Wintrich is going to be our new White House correspondent. And he had just been given press passes, which the Gateway Pund, the idea that the Gateway Pundit has White House briefing room press credentials is completely insane. It's one of those things era things where it's like, If all the five million other things weren't happening, this would be the most insane thing. Like, the Gateway Pundit is the garbage garbage. It's like makes the New York Post look the, you know.”
2019-10-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "Antisocial" author Andrew Marantz · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And his buddy is this guy named Lucian Wintridge. His side, his star reporter at the Gateway Pundit. And Lucian Wintrich says, You should follow me. I'm really interested. I'm like, okay, that's what everyone in the room is saying to me. Frankly, I don't want to hang out with any of you. Because I should also be clear, I didn't go into this world because I was so fascinated by how dangerous and sexy. And bad these people were. I found it all kind of pathetic I just thought they were more influential than people were”
2019-10-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "Antisocial" author Andrew Marantz · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“We got this guy into the White House. Yeah, get it. It's a great pun. So they're all there, and it's like this reservoir dog scene where it's like everybody's in one room. And Jim Hoft, who I'd never heard of at the time, is like, I'm huge in the Midwest. You should know who I am. And I'm like, all right, buddy. I don't know if, you know, it's just this tough dilemma where you're in a room full of trolls who want your attention. You're like, who do I reward with my attention? Right, right.”
2019-10-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "Antisocial" author Andrew Marantz · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Alex Jones. Yeah, this guy, Jim Hoft, who runs this site called Gateway Pundit. So he was getting a million page views a day during the election. And so a lot of these people, they converged at the first scene is this thing called the deplorable, which was their inauguration party. Yeah, I remember.”
2019-10-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "Antisocial" author Andrew Marantz · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Sure. But there's this other thing which I call in the book macro targeting, which is, okay, I don't have a lot of money or data, but I know how to hit everyone at their emotional flashpoints. And that's a skill too. It's not as subtle, but it works really well. And because these algorithms are built around emotional engagement, It could really be anything. It could be something really funny. It could be something. I mean, remember in 2014 when everything was cats and nostalgia and the internet is too positive because upworthy and buzzfeed, it could be that, or it could just be, I feel disgusted and rage and fear. They're just good at doing that again and again and morphing the when the algorithms morph to keep up with where it's going.”
2019-10-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "Antisocial" author Andrew Marantz · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Exactly. And that's why Twitter is where they live. Right. And it's not rocket science, but it is a little more sophisticated than just throwing a bomb out there. They have to know how So, we talk a lot about micro-targeting, right? When you have a lot of money and you're really good at Facebook's advertising tools, you can microtarget to this audience or that audience. And that's Brad Parscal did that in the Trump campaign.”
2019-10-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "Antisocial" author Andrew Marantz · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And Richard Spencer, who hates the Jews and all this stuff, he spends all day talking to Jewish reporters This is the greatest dig Trump ever had was when he said about Bannon when he fired him all Bannon does all day is talk to reporters. Like that's kind of true. And that's why...”
2019-10-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "Antisocial" author Andrew Marantz · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“No, surnamis is still on. Still on Twitter. Who got thrown off? A lot of the Milo, Gravin McKinnis, Alex Jones, yeah. So a lot of those guys, they're gone. And I mean, the sort of upshot of that is when Twitter kicks them off, they're gone.”
2019-10-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "Antisocial" author Andrew Marantz · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“So, why does it keep working? The bomb throwing. At some point, you're like, oh, there's another bomb. Why does it keep working for Sonovich and others? He got thrown off Twitter. No, Sernovich is still on Twitter. He's still on Twitter. Who got thrown off the other?”
2019-10-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "Antisocial" author Andrew Marantz · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“So I just went out there, sat in his house for a few days. I met up over the course of the next three years, I was with him and all his sort of buddies in DC, in Berkeley, I mean, all over the place. And this is just what they do. If they want something in the news, they have broken down the elements of what they need to do to get it there. And the thing that's historically unique is that they can do it in an afternoon themselves”
2019-10-09 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: "Antisocial" author Andrew Marantz · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT