YouSaid · the spoken record

Barry Friedman

lines on the record: 123
first: 2019-11-25
most recent: 2019-11-25
sittings or episodes: 1
sources: podcast

Every line below is reproduced as it was said and linked to the record it came from. Nothing here is summarised or generated. Directory · Search · Corrections

“Yeah, but like I say in my book Unwarranted, that's one worst thing that we get the wrong people. The worst thing with the tech is actually that it's accurate. Which is that we do nothing, and then we have all this huge tracking mechanism, and the government starts to make use of it. That's the worst”
2019-11-25 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Barry Friedman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And last question your worst case scenario of what could happen is nothing essentially that we just that these technologies just get, especially around DNA and everything else, and then just mistakes will happen just the way we have people on death row that did not do the crimes.”
2019-11-25 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Barry Friedman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“That is exactly right. And I think one answer that I have, and that the Axon board took this position, which was we don't even have to have the conversation about putting facial recognition on body cameras until it's sufficiently accurate and not racially biased. So come back and talk to us again when you fix that problem. And if we took that perspective, that would force the tech companies to at least get the tech to that point.”
2019-11-25 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Barry Friedman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Homogeneous, yeah. Right And pressing tech companies for that. It seems like they do it in their consumer products, they do it in everything. And the products they make, they're making them for a constituency, which is themselves in a lot of ways. And I think they don't think I've always said the reason Twitter has been unsafe is because the people who originally design it never have been unsafe, so they don't even understand the concept.”
2019-11-25 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Barry Friedman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I'm actually going to ask Brad Smith this question later today because I'm very curious. I have to believe that eventually technology solves the problem of the fact that, for example, facial recognition misidentifies people of color and women much less than white men. I have to believe it's going to be solved. I think we got into the situation because the tech companies themselves are far too white and male. Homogeneous, yeah. Right. And so I don't know the answer to when that gets solved, but I'm curious myself.”
2019-11-25 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Barry Friedman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Yeah, well, yes. And instead of saying, what are the rules? I mean, I come back to the same thing all the time, so I'm boring, but I just think that we need to get democracy working in this space, that this is all rushed past us very, very quickly. We didn't stop and think, you're right, we're not going to stop, but we could catch our breath and we could start to put guardrails in place. I like to believe, going back to my metaphor, that the cows are out in the field and need to get into the barn, but it's not toothpaste into the tube. It is not impossible to get this back under control. But it's not going to happen unless people demand that it happen.”
2019-11-25 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Barry Friedman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I think everybody needs to be asking the question, what's the government doing? And I think we're just, I have an academic article I'm writing about this, but why we all just kind of defer to the police as though they know everything instead of asking the question.”
2019-11-25 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Barry Friedman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“The use by criminals of technologies is really a whole nother show. But even just the shooter in New Zealand, they should have known someone was going to do that. That wasn't the hardest most creative idea that someone was going to use it. And you don't even have to be a negative person to have that come to that conclusion. All right, lastly, what about citizens? What can they do? They're not protected at all. Like they can grab any piece of anything from you. I mean, it's not China, and we always say, oh, we're not like China. I'm like, we're not unlike China.”
2019-11-25 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Barry Friedman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“That's not the ethic of a company. No, they don't because you're a bummer. You're a bummer. Total bummer. No, you're a bummer. I've been called up. I'm like, I'm not a bummer. I'm a realist of how people use it. And I think the affected in the absence of that when some things happen, like around the”
2019-11-25 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Barry Friedman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“You made my day so happy. No, but it is Yeah, and as you know better than really anybody on the planet, that's not the ethic of a company. No, they don't.”
2019-11-25 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Barry Friedman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“That's really smart. That's a really, I'm going to use that. You made my day so happy. No, but it is because I'm trying. I try to articulate him. The way I do it is like when I'm in these groups, because I often go to companies to talk about this because they think I'm just a crank sometimes. And then they're like, maybe she's actually being thoughtful about things. One was having people in the room that are affected when you're designing something. And the other is, I always say, you know, imagine your product, a black mirror episode and then don't make it or at least imagine the black mirror version of it or where it goes and goes off the rails. Even if it would never happen, be anticipatory of what the worst case scenario is.”
2019-11-25 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Barry Friedman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Well, so we've done some audits of technology companies. We have a public report on Shotspotter. We're talking to some other companies, and they ought to be doing the same thing. They ought to be thinking about what are they producing, how is it being used?”
2019-11-25 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Barry Friedman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Guardrails. And they're not, again, they're not, you know, it may make sense to keep the data for a day or 30 days, and then we should have a way of knowing that it's being disposed of. Right.”
2019-11-25 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Barry Friedman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Yeah, so we offer a service where we both with tech companies and with police departments to go in and do basically an audit of what they're doing. What are the technologies? What are the concerns about the technologies? And the department ought to be able to say, here's all our technologies, here's our written policy for every one of these technologies. That policy should be worried about privacy, about data retention, data acquisition. And so there's a template for what they all should be doing. And state legislatures, and I do think this is a big responsibility for state legislatures that they're mostly not performing, could make that the law. They could make that the rule that departments have to follow this set of principles about acquiring technologies. They could even make statewide rules. And so that is what is shockingly absent from our world that just needs to change as soon as possible.”
2019-11-25 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Barry Friedman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And my Twitter. So I'm screwed. You're dead. I'm dead. They're going to be like that one. Let's get that one. Like, I'll be easily trying.”
2019-11-25 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Barry Friedman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Absolutely. So let's do some good practices for police to finish up and good practices for people. Like, for example, I have Clear. I've had it for 100 years. I know when they come for the sweep, they're coming for Karis Wisher very easily because I've got my eyeballs out there and my fingerprints and my Twitter. I'm screwed. I'm dead. There could be like that one. Let's get that one. Like I'll be easily tracked. Talk about some good practices right now, you know, in terms of relating to policing, what you should do.”
2019-11-25 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Barry Friedman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And look, let's be fair. Often out of good motives, I mean, I do think that many of the things that happen that Snowden revealed where people of good motive working at less than the salary they could have gotten in private industry who woke up every day saying, how are we going to keep people safe from another 9-11? And I respect the people that do that and their motives. It's just that you cannot let them be the ones that are making these decisions by themselves without opening it up for us all to think about.”
2019-11-25 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Barry Friedman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Being able to account for that Whether or not it does, because it seems to me that every government in history is overreached if they could, if they have the ability to follow, they'll follow more. If they have even more data, they always overreach.”
2019-11-25 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Barry Friedman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Close enough. Close enough. And I gather, I mean, I don't expert here, but I gather that we'll have the technology to very quickly use DNA to know everybody that was just in the room, the room where it happened. And so I find it all. I tend to find it creepy a lot of it, but I do see the value in being able to use it wisely to make us safer. And so that's the trick.”
2019-11-25 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Barry Friedman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And it's somewhat, and it's questionable of whether as anyone who listens to cereal or anything else, it doesn't know if it's really pinging in the right place. So it's... But close enough. Close enough. But there's no new, new thing that you're, like, I'm trying to think of some of the things that the gatewalking, the walking, how you, the walking style is fascinating to me.”
2019-11-25 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Barry Friedman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I mean, I think it's already here. I find facial recognition and license plate reader. I mean, just because I don't think people know this, police cars have cameras on them that can sweep in the license plates across four lanes of traffic and they pull in billions of them all day long and then that all gets stored forever. So if somebody wants to know where you were over the last six months, we could know”
2019-11-25 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Barry Friedman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I have a cousin. I take each technology and again, look at it one by one and say there's something cool we could do with it. And there's some really bad stuff that could happen with it.”
2019-11-25 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Barry Friedman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Well, I don't know. I was with some friends over the break with DNA and they were, you know, they kept discovering new relatives in their email. So I think I find all that a little weird.”
2019-11-25 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Barry Friedman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I will go with you. Good. So only people that love it can go. But what are you most scared of and also in that regard, what are you most heartened about of the technologies coming? DNA's got to be it.”
2019-11-25 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Barry Friedman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“My love of top gun. No, I just put it right out there. I put it out there and people will do what they will. I get roundly mocked for it and I don't. Like, I'm going by myself. I'm a crazy top gun fan. I will go with you.”
2019-11-25 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Barry Friedman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Yeah, all of them. My love of top gun. No, I just put it right out there. I put it out there and people will do what they will. I get roundly mocked for it and I don't care. I love it. And I'm excited about the new one. Someone was like, oh, can I go with you to Top Gun? I go, no, the new one. I'm like, I'm going by myself.”
2019-11-25 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Barry Friedman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“But we all have I know your life is an open book, but I bet there's a couple of things you wouldn't want people reading the pages.”
2019-11-25 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Barry Friedman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“They sent a nasty email to their spouse where they admitted that they had some health ailment or they did something kind of embarrassing at work. I mean, we all live private lives in which if it was all public, we'd be just cringing and face balming all the time. And so it's just not true. People who say that are lying. I'll just give you one anecdote. Justice Scalia, who sometimes was of that view, showed up at a law school and some professor had this little class project where they found everything they possibly could about him on the internet in front of him with it. And he was furious.”
2019-11-25 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Barry Friedman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I got an answer I give people all the time about that. I get that all the time too. And I say, great, can I just have your email password? And people kind of cringe, right? Because, yeah, they got nothing high. They didn't rob a bank and they didn't assault somebody.”
2019-11-25 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Barry Friedman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I got nothing to hide. What do I care? You know, I get that all the time from people. What do I care if people of Amazon echoes by me? I got nothing to say. What do I care if I get tracked here? I didn't do nothing.”
2019-11-25 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Barry Friedman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Well, let me give the other argument because it is overall it's under surveillance. It's all a version of surveillance and tracking, essentially. And eventually people will have a chip in them. Everyone will have a chip, like a dog. I edit myself.”
2019-11-25 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Barry Friedman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“We have this world in which we could just have perfect surveillance if that's what we wanted. I don't think we really want that. And that is why it's just imperative to stop and catch our breath and say, we got to think through this.”
2019-11-25 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Barry Friedman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Think about our conversation as kind of rushed by like the ocean, and so it's license plate readers and DNA and facial recognition, and there's gate recognition coming and iris scan recognition coming.”
2019-11-25 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Barry Friedman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And at the same time, there's all this DNA sort of in storage houses everywhere, which could help people find criminals or let people off, get people off. There's been a lot of movement in that in the innocence project and stuff like that. And DNA is probably a big part of that. Of getting people out of jail”
2019-11-25 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Barry Friedman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I haven't noticed that. Notice that? You can't have a nuanced argument about everything. I haven't noticed that. But we're doing even worse than that right now, which is that it's just happening. So there are state laws around DNA databases. But hey, what the hell would state law? Lots of localities and local police departments say, I know, but we can follow people into McDonald's and grab the container after they're done with it and get their DNA and put them in a database because we think they're a suspect. And there is a profusion of these kind of individually held, individually run, completely unregulated DNA databases. Right.”
2019-11-25 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Barry Friedman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I mean, this is why our fundamental mission at the policing project is democratic accountability. I mean, what you just did in a very short time is point out that there are some really hard questions. And what we're supposed to do with really hard questions is think about them.”
2019-11-25 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Barry Friedman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“So, interestingly, let me just shift into DNA. You know, obviously, the famous case of the Golden State Killer was caught through DNA. Where are we with those laws? Because they exist, you know, even on a personal level, you know, people finding donor parents, all kinds of things. Your dad is not your dad, those kind of things. But in policing, it becomes, on one hand, you're like, ah, they caught him using DNA. But they caught him using DNA that wasn't the DNA they should have used.”
2019-11-25 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Barry Friedman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“For lots of reasons, one of which is if I went to you and I said, hey, we're going to have a universal DNA database. What do you think of that? My guess is everybody go like, no way. But so what we're doing is surreptitiously creating DNA databases wherever we can kind of grab somebody's DNA. That can't make any sense.”
2019-11-25 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Barry Friedman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“They've got the data. And not only that, think here's a simple example. Think about airport security. That's clearly a search under the Constitution. No question. Anybody got probable cause of a warrant? Last time you went through the airport? No. No. The protection is that everybody has to do it. And so in some paradoxical way, if we're going to do these things.”
2019-11-25 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Barry Friedman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Had a reason to go out of law order Exactly. And if you don't do that, you got to be worried about going after people for discriminatory reasons, arbitrary reasons, all kinds of bad reasons. And that's how you controlled it. But that's old-style policing. That isn't new style policing. New style policing is mass surveillance. We're taking pictures of everybody. We're looking at when you went through the easy pass. And for new style surveillance, warrants aren't going to do you any good. Because they've already...”
2019-11-25 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Barry Friedman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Yes, but I'm going to throw a crazy argument at you, okay? So, you know, it used to be that the way we regulated what the police did was we had warrants and probable cause. And we went after people and you could only go after them if you...”
2019-11-25 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Barry Friedman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“My feeling, unless they're stopped, and in other places, they just know they've just turned it over. And it's the wild west. And I mean, it just needs to stop. We need regulated.”
2019-11-25 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Barry Friedman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Are you sure in some of the you might be by the end of it? So in some of the jurisdictions, there's actually legislation where nobody was probably paying any attention. But the bill said you can share.”
2019-11-25 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Barry Friedman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“FBI using an FBI. FBI and agencies were going to other states, to their fusion centers and saying, you know, can you check this against that and tell us who it is? And we've done some investigation at the policing project about this. And in many places completely unregulated, just completely unregulated. That's what I mean.”
2019-11-25 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Barry Friedman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“The FBI Right, there's both private Facebook, and then there's all the DMVs, which isn't everybody, not everybody drives.”
2019-11-25 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Barry Friedman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“That is Would there ever be a data of everybody's picture? Passports, there's passport pictures, there's driver's license photos. The FBI has Facebook, which has most of the photos. That's the only organization that seems to have most people's pictures”
2019-11-25 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Barry Friedman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Exactly. That is exactly what it is, hugely biased in the technology itself. Different question is also biased in terms of who can identify. But so if you're going to regulate data sets, whether it's around this or many other things, that may have to come from Congress because otherwise you're going to have all this patchwork quilled around the country of different pieces of data sets that people are using. On the other hand, let's say Congress passes a bill about facial recognition and says it can be used for X and Y but not Z, and here's the data set. I still think that Kiakuk, Iowa or Peru, Indiana ought to get to make the decision that they just don't want their police using it. That has to be a local choice. And so I think we need a complicated regulatory structure around this.”
2019-11-25 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Barry Friedman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Oh, yeah, they're using everything. Everything they could get. And my view, which would take me a little while to defend, is actually if we're going to do this, we should get everybody's picture in there. Otherwise, what you could do is going to buy a sample. You're going to get the people that the police picked up.”
2019-11-25 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Barry Friedman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“You know, I think ultimately we're going to have to have national regulation, maybe local also. So let me just give you two examples. So one is, well, what about the data sets? You know, facial recognition works because you take a picture of somebody and you compare it to a big data set. And right now what's happening is police departments and other agencies are collecting data sets. Some of them have driver's license data. Some of them have just people that they've booked. And we've got this haphazard collection of data.”
2019-11-25 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Barry Friedman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's actually haphazard in other ways, which is where do we put the cameras? I mean, there's all kinds of serendipity and idiosyncrasy that goes into the”
2019-11-25 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Barry Friedman · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT