YouSaid · the spoken record

Brewster Kahle

lines on the record: 92
first: 2017-03-01
most recent: 2017-03-01
sittings or episodes: 1
sources: podcast

Every line below is reproduced as it was said and linked to the record it came from. Nothing here is summarised or generated. Directory · Search · Corrections

“Declarations of how a certain new kind of organization works, how transparent it is that it gives things away that can be very successful and spread from country to country. I think that that idea, because we've seen open source software work well, we've seen Wikipedia, Mozilla, Internet Archive, Electronic Frontier Foundation, Public Library of Science. These are infrastructure type companies, but they're not for profits. Is there a mechanism of building a new generation of organization that doesn't have at its core a Because you can destroy as much as you can, grow or die, you know, rip people to shreds because, you know, you're allowed to, therefore, you're supposed to. Maybe there's something more we can grow into.”
2017-03-01 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Brewster Kahle, chairman, The Internet Archive · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“They're there for the public good. They get a tax donation. But there are certain things that you have to do. You have to be mission-oriented. You're tax filings are all public on GuideStar, even if you're small. You know what basically all the top people are paid. And you have to be there for a public good. Where I think the 501c3 structure can be torn apart and it looks like it is in the process of that by political abuse of it as a laundering money laundering system. I think we could build a”
2017-03-01 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Brewster Kahle, chairman, The Internet Archive · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“One of the antidotes, I think, towards some of the talks that we've built up in some of our, especially tech companies, we used to, we turned to unions. A while and that. Has largely been hollowed out, and antitrust was sort of very difficult to put in place, but was torn down during the 80s and remade into something else. It's actually kind of like the open source world. And the companion organizations, which are nonprofits The nonprofits in the United States, I think, are one of the best inventions the United States has ever made. They're kind of like secular churches.”
2017-03-01 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Brewster Kahle, chairman, The Internet Archive · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“It's just something that if we don't collect it in the first place, we're pulling back from, well, maybe we'll use it later because we can and moves into because we should. And I think we've got a short time frame, a sort of an alarm bell going off because we don't know how things are going to change what's going to happen in the new administration. And if it's not this administration, maybe it's the next one after that. But maybe we should use this as our time in the tech community to look at ourselves and say, what does it really mean to be a good citizen and being a good citizen participating in the corporate world?”
2017-03-01 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Brewster Kahle, chairman, The Internet Archive · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“But we need people to think ethically. As Larry Lessig put it, some rights reserved. So even though you could assert more power over people, you might be able to do something more. Don't so Alexa Internet, a personal example. Alexa Internet was trying to understand the web by archiving all of it. We also archived how people moved around on the web. We anonymized it so we couldn't figure out who was who. And we found we didn't need IP addresses. The IP addresses, which are one per computer, is too much information. Even though we could collect it, we decided not to. And it turned out it never hurt us. I hope that more and more people that are in these companies go and say, you know, maybe we don't need those IP addresses. Maybe that's toxic waste.”
2017-03-01 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Brewster Kahle, chairman, The Internet Archive · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“It really depends on who's building it and for what we could end up in a sort of entertainment paradise of everybody sort of straps on VR and sort of takes their new legalized drug of choice and sort of blinks out. But wow, what a nasty world that would be. I really kind of like the American project, the experiment of, hey, let's go try out a bunch of different things and allow people. To build things that they would like to have built. Why don't we enable and empower more people in that well? Fortunately, the technologies can work that way.”
2017-03-01 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Brewster Kahle, chairman, The Internet Archive · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And driverless cars, da, la, laugh, right? So the nature of Work looks like it's irrevocably changing. So what are we going to do? We do need a mechanism of having it so that people have a minimum standard of living. Otherwise, people will revolt. If you have a historically, if you have just too high of a income disparity, people are driven out and away in a way that is Usually quite it doesn't end well. You need a mechanism of whether it's the Hebrews had a mechanism of Jubilee and the Babylonians as wiping the sleek clean and it was quite literally all debts were written down. And so you just wipe them clean when there was a new monarch. We have to have some mechanism of equalizing. Is technology going to do it”
2017-03-01 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Brewster Kahle, chairman, The Internet Archive · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“The nature of jobs just seems to already be changing. I mean, just look around. It just, I mean, how many of us are really farming food anymore? So that's all been mechanized, at least in, say, the United States or how many people are manufacturing things in the United States. That's not happening very much anymore.”
2017-03-01 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Brewster Kahle, chairman, The Internet Archive · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Let's finish up talking about that because this election sort of brings that back. A lot of the anger that Trump tapped into was manufacturing people who lost their jobs, people that aren't trained for the future. But really a lot of this future, that is not coming back. And actually, it's going to get worse for everybody else. Ever more people are going to have their jobs replaced. And you want to talk about manufacturing? Let's move into office stuff. Let's move into stuff that we didn't think could be replaced easily. What does that set us up for society? We don't have enough people trained as entrepreneurs. We don't have enough people that know how to do what needs to be done. Or do we even need the people? You know, you get to that point where is there even a necessity for that many people to have jobs?”
2017-03-01 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Brewster Kahle, chairman, The Internet Archive · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“There's a question, actually, I haven't really got a good answer for, which is if you wake up in the morning, how do you know if you're in a zoo? How do we know And it's sort of the question okay, are we there now? Probably not, but how do you know when we've tripped over into something like that? We're building these very, very powerful machines. I don't see it slowing down. And machines, technology is really the extension of the arms of humans. So it makes it so that people can do more. But that usually means that a few people can do a lot more. and there most people won't be able to do much more”
2017-03-01 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Brewster Kahle, chairman, The Internet Archive · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I guess I wake up on two sides of the bed, you know, sometimes sort of thinking, we will be in a zoo soon. And it's kind of an.”
2017-03-01 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Brewster Kahle, chairman, The Internet Archive · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Right, exactly. And so, what does that mean? Who has the responsibility? Should there be an open AI so we all have those AA structures? Elon talked about attaching neural networks to our own heads to be smart like them. Where do you see it going?”
2017-03-01 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Brewster Kahle, chairman, The Internet Archive · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“So, militaries also have very simple success metrics, and they'll be basically machines as quickly as they can make them.”
2017-03-01 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Brewster Kahle, chairman, The Internet Archive · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“I guess they're not little beasts, but they are strange. It takes special training to have humans be able to fit within them. They're made out of humans mostly, but they're more and more being built out of computers. And they're controlled by not very many people. And more and more the emphasis on computers. So corporations are interesting as a way of trying to understand how AIs will think. Because they operate under very simple rules like make more money and who cares about blank, blank, blank, blank, blank, blank. And that sort of simplified world is likely to be what we see for the first, I don't know, now we're sort of in the era of AI for the next 50 years, we may see very simplified goal structures very powerfully put in place, by being embedded as corporate entities or maybe as militaries.”
2017-03-01 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Brewster Kahle, chairman, The Internet Archive · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Okay, here, let me go off the rails just for a minute. When I really thought about sort of what, if we want to understand what AIs are going to look like. I think the proto AI that we have are corporations. Corporations are these sort of funny little beasts. They're not small”
2017-03-01 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Brewster Kahle, chairman, The Internet Archive · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Danny Hillis and Marvin Minsky. And yeah, those were heady days of the 80s when we knew we were basically bringing up our new overlords. And if you're going to bring up your new overlords, then have them read good books. What I think we got wrong back then. We sort of thought of it more like the Terminator. There's sort of Skynet where it separates off and then comes back and battles us. But actually, I think it's much more of a blur between people and computers. The networks”
2017-03-01 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Brewster Kahle, chairman, The Internet Archive · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Backs that why would Mark Zuckerberg pay for that, for example? Or why would Larry Page pay for that? The only person, for example, I've heard talking about open AI of significance is Elon Musk. The rest of them present AI as a happy, shiny future where everything will be delivered to us correctly by smarter machines. He's worried about it, for example. And I know, you know, a lot of tech people say, don't worry about it. But to me, when a very small group of people are designing AI right now and it's typically white men and they're programming it, you have to wonder who is going to control the rest of it or who gets other control.”
2017-03-01 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Brewster Kahle, chairman, The Internet Archive · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“That's pretty stunning. That's for the For the good world, EFF is probably the most influential IP law firm in the Silicon Valley, yet they give away all of their There are times. So, can you make it possible for this open world, the free world, as Richard Stallman would put it, works? And the answer is yes.”
2017-03-01 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Brewster Kahle, chairman, The Internet Archive · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Within government lives to go and invest in things that aren't going to end up putting us in a cage that we're going to regret later. Is that a bit of a Flee and a cry. Yes, it is. But Wikipedia is the number five most popular website of all websites.”
2017-03-01 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Brewster Kahle, chairman, The Internet Archive · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“We used to have antitrust laws in the United States that had teeth. To try to stop monopolies from happening. Not just make it so consumers. Have cheaper products, but actually there was competition, that we made it so that there wasn't lock-in. That's large part gone in this country. So looking for that is challenging. Sometimes I find some of the open systems to be some of the most interesting things going on. I think it's interesting when Linux Can go and be an operating system that competes with the very biggest companies. Such that IBM is now supporting and has moved over to Linux. What does that mean? The open world can work. It does require Large amount of investment of time and effort and tolerance Because sometimes the open systems don't work as well But maybe we should be spending more time and effort within academia.”
2017-03-01 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Brewster Kahle, chairman, The Internet Archive · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“So, what should these companies do? Their go to thing, it's a platform we're not responsible. I'm responsible as a media person if I get something wrong, but they're not responsible. You're saying they do have responsibilities, but what are the responsibilities that you think should be, that they should either take up or be put upon them?”
2017-03-01 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Brewster Kahle, chairman, The Internet Archive · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And really, there's just Google, or there's just Facebook, or there's just Twitter. We have some challenges. The wonder is that this technology is very available. I mean, it's pretty amazing And it's pretty startling how good it actually is at answering questions. Yet Its ability to control what we think is absolute.”
2017-03-01 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Brewster Kahle, chairman, The Internet Archive · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Who codes it? Who controls this? And can we make multiple of these? I guess theoretically we can, but winner takes all is such an important thing in this networked world. It's not important. It seems to happen so often because one player gets a bit of a lead. They make some more money that allows them to continue the RD much more quickly, and you lose out. So the Yahoo's disappear. Or effectively disappear. And now there's kind of bing and there's Google.”
2017-03-01 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Brewster Kahle, chairman, The Internet Archive · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“These enormous players have absolute roles and responsibilities on how things work. The medium is the message. We are living in Marshall McLuhan land where the medium forms. How we think about things, the way the web is coded determines a lot of how we live our lives online. And it's now not just the web, it's how Facebook is coded, how Google is coded.”
2017-03-01 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Brewster Kahle, chairman, The Internet Archive · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Well, that's a reasonable argument, Breister. I mean, a lot of the control of information or the flooding of information with false information or slightly skewed information. I think we've gotten into a situation where just this recent controversy on Facebook fake news. How do you look at that? Facebook's argument is, hey, we're a platform, we're not responsible. I think they're fully responsible for a lot of that. And, oh, it doesn't have impact. Well, of course it has impact. And, you know, and then it becomes a, this is their point of view, this is your point of view when actually there is a reality of what happens.”
2017-03-01 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Brewster Kahle, chairman, The Internet Archive · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“It can change. A lot of what's built the World Wide Web and the open information infrastructure that we understand is just actually embedded in a few laws. that basically make it so that there can be user originated content Could be then hosted on other companies' websites without having them have. Liability, and as long as we're a copyright infringement, if they took it down quickly, then that was good enough. Those laws are all quite changeable. They're not universal. The United States, as you point out, has been actually freer than most in terms of offering access to information. But it doesn't have to be this way. Openness is not the default It's in terms of how, if you look back in time or even around the world in space, so we need to show why openness works better.”
2017-03-01 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Brewster Kahle, chairman, The Internet Archive · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“So it's always been controllable, but it has been a free willing thing until recently, I think. You see things like that happen in China, in Turkey, obviously. Many, many of the authoritarian governments understand how powerful this information is and the access to information is for people and want to limit it, especially negative information or critical information about the regimes, which they deem inaccurate even if it's accurate. U.S. has been at the forefront of not being like that, although it's the spying by the NSA has disturbed everyone. It's been relatively free-wheeling in terms of what's available and what people can access and say. Do you see that changing? And what does that mean?”
2017-03-01 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Brewster Kahle, chairman, The Internet Archive · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“So we're seeing a shift. It's not fun in games anymore, I guess, would be the way to look at it. It's not like, oh, isn't this a cool new widget? It's how we understand our world. It's how we interact with each other. And it's all quite controllable”
2017-03-01 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Brewster Kahle, chairman, The Internet Archive · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Large corporations, and people were having some struggles with this. With this new administration that has been openly Saying that net neutrality is not something they are. in favor of journalisms are hated and I guess jokingly, we're threatened with being killed. I sure hope they're joking. And so we have a real change in what's going on. So we have at least a fire drill. To go and say, what kind of world do we want to live in, in a world that's got a lot of different points of view going on? Also, development in the last 20 years is the Chinese firewall. So, there's a different world that you see inside China of what the world looks like because it's filtered by their government. Things blink on and off. I think the Internet Archive is now blocked in Turkey.”
2017-03-01 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Brewster Kahle, chairman, The Internet Archive · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Everything online and making a lot of it very public. And if it's not completely public, it's public to these large corporations. So we've had this trusting. Period, and I sure hope that this continues because there's even before some of the political changes, there were corporate changes, whether these large platform companies that controlled and exerted a certain level of ownership. Over the sharing that we've done, or who we're connected to, what we're talking about, what we buy, what we're reading. So all of those have been put in place of.”
2017-03-01 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Brewster Kahle, chairman, The Internet Archive · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“ever more connected so um I think if you ask younger people sort of what their most valuable possession is or what would they run back into the house in if there were a fire it would be their phone So we're very connected and very interdependent. And it's been interesting. We've had a period of trust that has gone on where people are trusting putting their thoughts.”
2017-03-01 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Brewster Kahle, chairman, The Internet Archive · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“That can't basically doesn't track all the readers. So it's like when we were growing up, when you could read a book and nobody knew you were reading that book unless somebody saw you reading that book, it's not part of government databases and corporate databases that you're reading that book. And can we make it reliable? And so the decentralized web is still in formation. But it's a mechanism that makes it so the web also would be archivable such that the actual working natures of websites, not just what they looked like, but how they worked, could be kept alive as people retire, die, want to work on a different project.”
2017-03-01 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Brewster Kahle, chairman, The Internet Archive · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Monitor people at an enhanced level, that those are now suspects. Libraries have long had history with people being rounded up for what they've read. And bad things happening to them. So we have an interest in trying to make it so that there's reader privacy. So if we can be able to decentralized web,”
2017-03-01 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Brewster Kahle, chairman, The Internet Archive · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“and then offered all of those IP addresses, which are personally identifiable in large part, to the NSA. The NSA had conversations about using that as a means to go inside.”
2017-03-01 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Brewster Kahle, chairman, The Internet Archive · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“But this is so cool. So cool. It's worth it. The internet is decentralized in the sense that you can kind of nuke any part of it and still works. That was its original design. But the World Wide Web isn't that way. You go knock out a particular piece of hardware, it goes away. So can we make a reliable web that served for many different places, kind of like how the Amazon cloud works, but for everybody? And the answer is yes, you can. So you can make kind of a peer-to-peer distribution structure such that the web becomes reliable. Another is we can make it private so that there's reader privacy. Edward Snowden has brought to light some really difficult architectural problems of the current World Wide Web. GCHQ.”
2017-03-01 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Brewster Kahle, chairman, The Internet Archive · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“VR 3D scans. But actually, we have to do a better job of preserving the web. And the web was not designed to be preserved. So we've been working with sort of very forward-thinking people on building a decentralized web.”
2017-03-01 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Brewster Kahle, chairman, The Internet Archive · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Those conversations have happened not with Mark Zuckerberg. Love to, but some say, yeah, we can do this or we can't do this or they say it's legal issues or proprietary issues. It's a sort of a collision between culture and capitalism.”
2017-03-01 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Brewster Kahle, chairman, The Internet Archive · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Things get missed. So we have robots to try to sweep everything up that we can, or things that are linked to. So we only have the parts of Flickr that people link to, for instance. But things do get missed.”
2017-03-01 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Brewster Kahle, chairman, The Internet Archive · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“You get that by writing special crawlers. And for those, the librarians, we have about a thousand librarians that subscribe to archive it. And they go and tell us what should be archived to be put in particular collections”
2017-03-01 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Brewster Kahle, chairman, The Internet Archive · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“A lot of it's there. And so we're trying to adapt as best we can to these platforms. And that's a big shift of how the internet that we thought it was going to be a very”
2017-03-01 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Brewster Kahle, chairman, The Internet Archive · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“In general, the public materials, but you still have to have a mechanisms of redaction. Right. So that's how we do that with robot exclusion for people complaining.”
2017-03-01 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Brewster Kahle, chairman, The Internet Archive · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Donated a copy as time went on. So that they are chronicling what has happened, so they're searchable. Although there's privacy issues because a lot of it's personal. Not Twitter, that would be more public, correct?”
2017-03-01 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Brewster Kahle, chairman, The Internet Archive · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Goes into their databases to Twitter. Credit when Alex McGilfrey was there. He arranged that a copy went to the Library of Congress. I don't know that much has happened with that yet, but at least it's there. We'd like to see more archive aware organizations like Alexa that donated a copy as time went on. We'd like to see that happen more.”
2017-03-01 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Brewster Kahle, chairman, The Internet Archive · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“We're, you know, social media is, they make it difficult for us. Facebook makes it the hardest. Twitter is pretty easy, but we're not at scale. So around the election, we made sure that we had all of the election related tweets that we could, hundreds of millions of people.”
2017-03-01 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Brewster Kahle, chairman, The Internet Archive · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Yeah, so if you go to archive.org, there's an upload button, and thousands of people a day upload things. We also archive the popular things on YouTube. So if they're referred to on Twitter, then we archive the YouTube videos.”
2017-03-01 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Brewster Kahle, chairman, The Internet Archive · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“It's not just an interview, it's not just a speech, it's a long form discourse. We want to see that continue. So the long-form narrative, but whether it's actually going to be on dead trees or on electronics or both or is I don't really care. As long as we have ways of expressing these long form ideas, and some people don't really need to be paid because they're paid by the academics or whatever, but others do want to get paid. So we need a mechanism of paying people. So buying what we can in the ebook world so that they are owned by libraries, three to four billion dollars from libraries go to authors and publishers. Let's keep that going. But right now it's stumbling.”
2017-03-01 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Brewster Kahle, chairman, The Internet Archive · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Books with lead and with sewing and all of this. Books play a very special role in our society. It's the long form way of expressing an idea.”
2017-03-01 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Brewster Kahle, chairman, The Internet Archive · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“And lend. So we buy what we can in books. We buy what we can. And then we scan what we have to. And right now, actually in books, if we're trying to buy books the way we used to buy books, but trying to buy them in e-form, they put funny restrictions on them. So we hope they ease up kind of like the music guys did.”
2017-03-01 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Brewster Kahle, chairman, The Internet Archive · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“Libraries only, most of what's in a library is copyrighted materials. And we've always worked with publishers. What we do is buy.”
2017-03-01 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Brewster Kahle, chairman, The Internet Archive · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT
“We're doing very well. So starting in 2010, so six years ago, we started digitizing at scale in copyright non-rights cleared books, basically all of it, made it available to the blind and dyslexic. Because you could, you should. So he did. And we're also making it available via lending. So if you go to openlibrary.org, this is fun. I hope that you do. Go to openlibrary.org and go to the little carousel of borrowable books. You can check out a book and then you're the only one that can read it until you either return it or two weeks later. And this is emulating basically the restrictions of a library. It's just a library. So we've been doing this and it's been working out great.”
2017-03-01 · Decoder with Nilay Patel · Recode Decode: Brewster Kahle, chairman, The Internet Archive · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT