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Claire Hughes Johnson

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2024-08-09

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2024-08-09

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1. “No one is guessing or reading the tea leaves or wondering why another team is doing the same project, put it all on the table so that we can get to the end faster. And frankly, more inclusively. And why do I care about inclusion? Yes, inclusion is a good thing for people to feel better and included, but actually because if you've hired a bunch of smart people and yet they don't feel included, they will not share their opinion. And the reason you hired them is because they're smart people who bring diverse opinions. And if they won't say them, then you're not really benefiting from all that work hiring them because you want a better outcome. This is all about results. But I think it's a little windy to get there sometimes.”

   2024-08-09 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #762: Coach George Raveling and Claire Hughes Johnson · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

2. “Making the implicit explicit is so valuable. By the way, so many, a lot of people are like, I love that your book is like so humanistic about people and how to care for. I was like, folks, my book is about getting results. I do appreciate other humans and I love working with them, even though sometimes Patrick Hawson and I would be like, oh my gosh, this is like the hardest problem. And we'd go, oh, if there were no humans involved, it would be so much easier. But point is, I love humans and the human condition, but I really am talking about how do you get results and how do you get results? You get super clear and transparent about anything implicit. You make it explicit. And you're like, clear, like, this is a process we're going to go through to get to this outcome. And what is the outcome we want? Make it explicit. I mean, Tim, you, I think, are the master of this. What are we measuring? Why are we measuring it? How will we know if we won? And I would add to that. And what process will we go through together to get there?”

   2024-08-09 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #762: Coach George Raveling and Claire Hughes Johnson · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

3. “Make the implicit explicit, or is it undermine the superstructure from within? I'm not sure, but one of those is my billboard. But the first one.”

   2024-08-09 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #762: Coach George Raveling and Claire Hughes Johnson · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

4. “That means for me, it means, yeah, like I can read it later and it's interesting, but I don't need to respond. And I'm like, I can't believe this, but I think I have to back to, I think you ask your guests a question of like, if you were going to have a billboard. I think the fight for me in my billboard would be, is it?”

   2024-08-09 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #762: Coach George Raveling and Claire Hughes Johnson · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

5. “That's why yours called it user manual, which is a very, an engineer is going to be like, I'm going to write a user manual to me. And I just called it working with me. There's a section on what types of information do you like to see? Because that's different than how do I want to be communicated with. And it's different than when should I get in touch with you, which is like, yeah, if there's a crisis, get in touch with me. But there's something in mind where I talk about the fact that if like someone on your team is having a major life event, I'd like to know about it. I'd like to send them a note. I'd like to say I'm sorry or celebrate their child or, you know, I think what types of information do you like to have? I also get really explicit about things like email protocols mean different things to people, especially in different generations. I'm sure you've seen this. But I used to work with someone who would send FYI and really, really feel strongly that you need to process that information and like have a response.”

   2024-08-09 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #762: Coach George Raveling and Claire Hughes Johnson · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

6. “The question, I guess, if I were going to phrase it as a question, it would be how do I help you make great decisions or how do you like to make decisions? But I think in my document, I just sort of have headers, like decision making.”

   2024-08-09 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #762: Coach George Raveling and Claire Hughes Johnson · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

7. “My working with me document was published in Elad Gill's book, High Growth Handbook, and went like a little bit viral, like viral for Claire, not for Tim Ferris. But like still, I was like shocked at how many people that I've never met had seen it. And I also got some criticisms on the interwebs that was like very egotistical in some way. It was sort of like, here's how you make me happy, which I was like, okay, that's like a totally fair criticism and not the intention. By the way, I'm like pretty highly empathetic. I'm like, I'm trying to reduce anxiety and help people feel comfortable being honest with me, whatever. But I get it. It seems very self-absorbed. So one of the things that I'm reacting to is like.”

   2024-08-09 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #762: Coach George Raveling and Claire Hughes Johnson · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

8. “I slack you stuff, or should I wait till the next morning? Or, like, you're looking for guidance, you're looking to read the person. I'm like, just tell them. Tell them how to work with you. And then that reduces the anxiety. And ideally, they write their own manual. And then you've both sort of shortcut some of the get-to-know-you stuff so you can just jump right into working together.”

   2024-08-09 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #762: Coach George Raveling and Claire Hughes Johnson · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

9. “Him. But then I went and undermined him. And so that's why, by the way, the working with me documents also helpful is because if you have a good relationships with people you work with, they will tell you, yeah, you think you act this way, but you really don't. So then I had to add a section about sometimes when it feels like I'm micromanaging you, it's because I'm trying to learn. The first time I've ever done a thing, you are going to see me hyper involved. But what we should do is establish that ahead of time. And if I don't, please call me on it. Anyway, the point is, yeah, the working with me document became something I just shared today with anyone who starts to work with me closely. And what happens in high growth environments like Google and Stripe is like your team changes a lot. There's new people. People's managers change is hard. You don't love that. But like I've had people come to me and say, you're my fourth manager in a year. So what are you trying to do? You're trying to create a shortcut because there's anxiety when we first work with someone. Well, should I call you if I have some kind of crisis when you're at night and slack looks like you're available?”

   2024-08-09 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #762: Coach George Raveling and Claire Hughes Johnson · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

10. “that you're accurate about this. And I said, Well, are you saying I'm a micromanager? And he said, Well, there was this one thing. And he named this project that I had delegated to him. And he's like, then you proceeded to show up in every meeting, read every document, be in the spreadsheet. And that was, to me, felt pretty micromanaging. I was like, yeah, I bet it did feel that way. I said, I did that because that project was the first time it was like a sales compensation scheme. I was like, that's the first time I'd ever built one. And I was really like wanting to learn. And he said, well, you never told me that. So as far as he was concerned, I showed up in every damn thing this poor guy had scheduled and he's supposed to be leading and he's supposed to make a recommendation to me. And I'm like reading all the same stuff, participating. I mean, I was looking back, I'm really embarrassed. I was like, I can't believe I didn't tell you because I had full confidence in this. He was probably, by the way, better positioned than I was to build this thing. And I was counting on.”

    2024-08-09 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #762: Coach George Raveling and Claire Hughes Johnson · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

11. “And start operating without any basis. But I think that you're trying to reflect that. But I think it's important to reflect that. Like, for example, in my first version, one thing that did change when my team read it was I said, by the way, every manager is like, I'm not a micromanager. It's like a common, everyone's like, well, don't worry. I'm not a micromanager. Unfortunately, a lot of us are. And I said, I'm not a micromanager. I will delegate. I will trust you. But if I'm concerned, you're going to know and I'll get more involved. Right. And so I thought I was being pretty honest. Like when I do get involved, we should have a conversation because it means I'm having an issue with trust, which means I'm not sure I'm happy with the product. So this guy who worked for me, he said, I'm not sure.”

    2024-08-09 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #762: Coach George Raveling and Claire Hughes Johnson · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

12. “They contacted me on every channel. How is it that you're texting me WhatsApping me, calling me, slacking me, rarely emailing me, actually emailing is probably like the least interesting channel to them. So you give guidance. Like, what are the best channels? Like how to use our one-on-one, but also things like how do I tend to make decisions? So if you're coming to me for a decision, here's what you can expect. If it's this kind of decision, how long will I need? What kind of data might I like? Like I have a section in my doc, which is I tend to be intuitive. So I've taken a lot of different personality assessments and I actually don't really spike in a lot of areas, but I spike as highly intuitive, meaning you come to me with something I intuitively have an opinion. I'm like, oh, I think this is going to be the right thing to do. Or I think I say, I'm intuitive. And then I write dot, dot, dot. Don't worry, but data driven. So I'll tell you my intuition. And then I'll say to you, bring me data so we either can validate it or you tell me your intuition, but let's get some data so I don't just get out there.”

    2024-08-09 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #762: Coach George Raveling and Claire Hughes Johnson · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

13. “In 2009. It has not changed very much. And we can decide how we feel about that. But I think it's a great exercise in self-awareness. It's a great exercise in also sort of thinking about, okay, when I have to make a decision. So to your point, what kind of content is there? Some of it's very tactical. It's like, how do I like, what communication channels work best for me? So how to use our one-on-one versus send me a Slack versus a text versus call me. In today's world, you know that like I literally have people that I work with actually, I think, you know, I work with Patrick and John Collison, the Stripe co-founders.”

    2024-08-09 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #762: Coach George Raveling and Claire Hughes Johnson · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

14. “And so I was like, oh, that was super helpful. But I feel embarrassed. I'm like, I said, Am I saying I'm funny? She's like, no, you like a good laugh. It's true. I'm not particularly that funny, but I really enjoy humor. Anyway, so we added a section at the end. But she said, no, I think this is pretty good. I think you should send it to the team and see what they think. But what's amazing, Tim, is that document has not changed markedly.”

    2024-08-09 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #762: Coach George Raveling and Claire Hughes Johnson · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

15. “Fun joke humor. Yeah. She's like, you know, your meetings. She said, I've never been in a meeting with you where we didn't laugh at least once. That's the kind of thing, by the way, that you don't know because you're never not in a meeting with you.”

    2024-08-09 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #762: Coach George Raveling and Claire Hughes Johnson · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

16. “And then at Google Cloud, a lot of work. But he wrote a user manual. And this person described it. And then they went on to say they wrote one and they shared it with their team and their team's response. And I was like, I should write one. Like here I am moderating this great manager panel. I haven't done this. So like any good learner, I go back and I sort of like bang out this document. I mean, this is the thing that's the most interesting to me in this maybe anti-growth mindset. But this was probably, I don't know, 2009, 2008, whatever. It was like many years ago. I bang out this document and I call it the unauthorized guide because I don't work for me. So I invited comment. I said, for those who actually have had me as a manager, like please tell me how on base I am or not. And then I gave it actually. I had the time had this really amazing woman who had been a manager in my organization. And then she went on maternally leave and came back and asked to be my assistant. She said, I want to change sort of, I think I could be kind of a chief of staff to you.”

    2024-08-09 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #762: Coach George Raveling and Claire Hughes Johnson · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

17. “Working with me document is basically trying to write your own user manual, and I don't think you have to be a people manager, but I've come to believe it's a best practice if you are going to be managing people to do your best to write a user manual to working with you. The idea came to me, actually, I was moderating a panel at Google. Google had then evolved to a point where I was trying to celebrate management. So we'd done this great manager award. And I was the moderator interviewing the great managers that we'd selected across several teams in front of this big room of people at Google. And I asked them, you know, you ask, what are some practices that you think have really benefited you as a manager? And one of the panelists said, well, I copied this thing that URS and this is Urs Hulzhole, who's a long, many, many decades at Google. I think he's only retiring like now, who worked in infrastructure and building the servers and like a lot of what really makes your Google results come very quickly. You can thank URS.”

    2024-08-09 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #762: Coach George Raveling and Claire Hughes Johnson · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

18. “I 100% love that you went there because I think it's when you're pushing the sci fi into like a different realm, it's magical realism.”

    2024-08-09 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #762: Coach George Raveling and Claire Hughes Johnson · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

19. “Isabella Yende, Borges, Marquez. And that's where like maybe the genders can meet, which is like really emotional, gripping, multi-era stories, but really wild stuff. It's like dream state is happening. And you're wondering, were they on drugs? Like, what's happening here?”

    2024-08-09 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #762: Coach George Raveling and Claire Hughes Johnson · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

20. “She said to me, What's the other to the lighthouse? I would say 100 years of solitude, Gabrielle, Garcia Marquez, and my introduction to magical realism. What's interesting is you went to this because a lot of guys I talked to, they're like Neil Stevenson, three body problems. It's like there's a sci-fi dune is always in there contact, you know, like whatever. It depends on when they were born. Like you get this sort of sci-fi, but what you just did, I love, which is where else is their sci-fi in a lot of Latin American literature.”

    2024-08-09 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #762: Coach George Raveling and Claire Hughes Johnson · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

21. “Understand the human condition. I don't just mean like I'm reading a book and I understand wow, that's how it might feel to be in a divorce, or that's how it might feel to lose your child. Or, you know, I'm saying, no, you yourself as the reader, if the book is really good, start to feel the feelings. You start to feel like, oh, I lost a child. Emotional exercise is hard. It's either happening to you. So you're going through an emotional. Situation in your own life, which is hard, but doesn't happen every day to most people, or you're going to get emotional exercise from, in my experience, a lot of people get it from film. They get it from video content, short form video. I think it's a serious film. Maybe it's John Wick. John Wick might be a way to detoxify your left eye.”

    2024-08-09 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #762: Coach George Raveling and Claire Hughes Johnson · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

22. “How do you build empathy? How do you understand everybody has a story? I mean, you've traveled a lot, Tim, but a lot of people, you and I both know haven't traveled the world. They haven't been to that many countries. You want to go to another country, find a great novel that's been translated from that country and read it. And like you will understand that country in a way that no travel guide will ever give you, in my opinion. So I think it's a very cheap way. And there's also to build like emotional intelligence. I've worked now in tech companies for over 20 years. And when you sort of get to certain levels of responsibility with management and leadership, you could be technically the smartest person in the room. But if you have no emotional intelligence or dimensionality in contemplating emotional states, you are going to struggle. You are going to struggle to lead. And so when I say,”

    2024-08-09 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #762: Coach George Raveling and Claire Hughes Johnson · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

23. “More for me. But what's amazing is Virginia Woolf was never that. She didn't have children and she unfortunately did kill herself. Like she had a lot of demons. And actually the way that she killed herself brutal she filled her pockets with rocks and like drowned herself. You know, and I think that a lot of artists are tortured, but the fact that she could project into this Mrs. Ramsey and this woman, this very maternal figure was a sign of true artistry. Sorry, that was very long.”

    2024-08-09 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #762: Coach George Raveling and Claire Hughes Johnson · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

24. “I'll be the first one to tell you. I read a lot of mysteries and thrillers, and I like movies like that, actually. So I'm very multidimensional. But I think for To the Lighthouse, you find something new every time you read it. You think about life, death, the human condition, what is love, what is family, what does it mean to connect with other human beings? And there's something about the way the writing works. I mean, it's set in this island in Scotland, and there's a lighthouse that they go out in the boat, like you would literally feel like you're surfing in a boat. Like that feeling when you're like, I'm not really connected to firm land, but I'm in this inner sanctum of people's heads. So I think that it changed me because of the way it felt to read it. Frankly, the themes are much more sophisticated than my 19-year-old self probably could have handled. I should actually, you just said you should read awareness again. I should go read to the lighthouse again because now that I am a mother and a wife of a certain age, I'm like, this book is going to resonate a lot.”

    2024-08-09 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #762: Coach George Raveling and Claire Hughes Johnson · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

25. “I feel like the plot of John Wick is pretty clear You know, I am going to take vengeance. Excuse me now. I'm going to come out of retirement and kill everyone.”

    2024-08-09 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #762: Coach George Raveling and Claire Hughes Johnson · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

26. “I will say that, and Toothlight is not an easy read, and I want to own that also, I think it's very Mrs. Dalloway, much more digestible, shorter book. It has some repetition in it, some beautiful rhythm in the writing where you're like, oh, and I'm coming back around in this circular way to the way the story sort of moves you, to the lighthouse is like a dream state. You feel like you're in a dream state. You're like, the points of view are shifting. Who's the real narrator here? What is the story? There's not like you're not being driven by your classic plot or character driven story. It is much more internal”

    2024-08-09 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #762: Coach George Raveling and Claire Hughes Johnson · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

27. “Things in some of her writing, I still think you should study Virginia Wolf. And I will own that as my position on her. But I think to the Lighthouse, most people would say is her most important novel. I will be honest with you and say when I wrote my thesis in college, I was going to write it onto the lighthouse. And then I actually decided to write it on Mrs. Dalloway, which is another one of her novels, because I love the parallels from Mrs. Dalloway with a book called The Passion by Jeanette Winterson. So Jeanette Winterson is a female British writer more in the modern era who had broken through with a memoir called Oranges are not the only fruit and then had published this book, The Passion, and then a book called Sexing the Cherry. She's published now several books. But Jeanette Winterson, I think, is a descendant, in my opinion, of Virginia Wolf. And I was like, I'm going to examine these two novels. And I didn't choose to the lighthouse.”

    2024-08-09 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #762: Coach George Raveling and Claire Hughes Johnson · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

28. “With men and women, she also has relationships with men and women. She's like pretty avant-garde person. But if you read a room of one's own, it's basically one of the earliest feminist manifestos that exist. And this is where I think, Tim, you're like me. I love people who are polymaths. You're like not just this amazing novelist, thank you, Virginia Wolf, but you're also writing just your thoughts on things like women should have a rob of their own. I mean, actually figuratively, you know, not just literally. And I think that she is fascinating. Her life is fascinating. And I want to acknowledge not all of her personal views are great on some things as that happens. I worry that we started to not study certain artists because they've said some things or done some things, which I would disagree with. I think people think she was an anti-Semite and it does appear that she said some very anti-Semitic.”

    2024-08-09 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #762: Coach George Raveling and Claire Hughes Johnson · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

29. “Loved literature because I think how do you understand the human condition? Literature is like the best shortcut to that in your life. But I think there are some authors for someone who becomes a student of literature that sort of change their worldview about really what's possible with writing. So not just the book changes how they feel and think, but actually the process, sort of like when you see a product, I think you love innovative products. You know, when you see something, you're like, that is going to change my life. And so I think that to the Lighthouse represents, I mean, Virginia Wolf is a writer that resonated for me. And I think if you understand, if you've also studied history and you think, okay, she's writing some stuff in like the early 1900s, 1920s, not a lot of women publishing a lot in that time in Britain. She gets herself into this writer's collective.”

    2024-08-09 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #762: Coach George Raveling and Claire Hughes Johnson · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

30. “I love great literature. I think that's how I grew up. My parents are both teachers. My father was a high school English department chair and teacher and baseball coach. By the way, he would probably say he was a baseball coach. And then he would say and a teacher. And my mom was a college professor.”

    2024-08-09 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #762: Coach George Raveling and Claire Hughes Johnson · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

31. “That they had any potential blind spot or had never done a deal like this deal. And I'm like, how are we going to close this awareness gap? Because the people around you are saying, You are not the best person to negotiate this deal. And I'm trying to hand it to someone else and you're like, what? You have no one better than me. You know, and that's a very hard gap to close.”

    2024-08-09 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #762: Coach George Raveling and Claire Hughes Johnson · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

32. “But I can't say that because that person is going to go from learning to barely in learning mode. I'm trying to bring them along with me and they're going to just shut down. And by the way, they may never admit that Lucy doesn't like them because they blame her for missed deadlines, but they're going to realize that their manager, who's me, is not letting them off the hook. If they can't get into an agency, a player mindset, I'm a responsible party for my work and others, then they are going to be off my team. If I can't coach them out of it, to your point, there's two gaps that I think are really hard. One is people who can't stop being victims. And the other gap, I call it self-awareness gap, where they think they are the best in the world. I once worked with this BD person who was like, I can negotiate a deal better than anyone. And talk about not being in a learning mindset. I'm like, do you not think we should get any outside advice? I'm exaggerating a little bit, but really unaware.”

    2024-08-09 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #762: Coach George Raveling and Claire Hughes Johnson · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

33. “And we were like, oh, say more about that. What do you think is going on? And of course, by the way, your left hand column, Tim, is it's because Lucy doesn't like you because you blame her for all of your missed deadlines, right?”

    2024-08-09 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #762: Coach George Raveling and Claire Hughes Johnson · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

34. “We go down and we're in the scenario, and I say, Let's do the five whys. I mean, everyone loves the five whys. I'm like, why do you think Lucy didn't send you the notes? Well, she's not good at deadlines. Okay. And then this is a wonderful expression that I learned from some coach I had a million years ago. Be that as it may, which is not normal English language, but I don't know it worked. Sort of like, be that as it may. Okay, maybe Lucy's terrible at deadlines. But why else? Well, I didn't ask her to get it to me at a specific time. Okay. So maybe there's a thing. Why else, you know, and you're sort of pushing them? And sometimes not every time they'll sort of say, well, I don't know.”

    2024-08-09 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #762: Coach George Raveling and Claire Hughes Johnson · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

35. “Being a little lazy, they're not helping others do the work. They're not a good collaborator. And that's what I sometimes do with someone who's like, you know, if this is a pattern, I say, you know, I see this pattern. Do you see this pattern where you're waiting for other people all the time? Tell me more about why you think that's happening. Why are people not delivering for you? And the question is like either it's because they haven't figured out how to do action items or accountability or be clear about deadlines or there's someone people don't like to work with. I always call it like going meta. Like you're looking from the balcony at the situation, which is a term from adaptive leadership. Are you on the balcony or are you on the dance floor? And if you're on the balcony, you try to get the person up there with you and say, why do you have this pattern of people not helping you get your work done? And then I think of it as going to the basement. I know this is, I'm a very visual person. So we look down and they sort of, if they acknowledge it, they say, yeah, I guess I see that. And I say, well, let's talk about a few examples and we come up with some examples.”

    2024-08-09 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #762: Coach George Raveling and Claire Hughes Johnson · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

36. “You could use a productivity tool where you could see, I love those tools because that's sunshine. Sunshine is a great disinfectant, Tim. Like if everybody can see that Lucy has not done her action item, that is going to help Lucy be more accountable. But the point is you come up with this list and the person often is like, wow, you're right. Really what you're kind of going to have to admit to you is.”

    2024-08-09 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #762: Coach George Raveling and Claire Hughes Johnson · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

37. “I'll take responsibilities so people Exactly. And it becomes this weird expanded scope of this person who actually doesn't take responsibility. It's a pattern I've seen. For people earlier in their career, the easiest coaching move you do, which I'm sure you've heard or someone's done it to you, I've certainly had it done to me. They're saying, Lucy didn't send me your notes. And you're saying, what could you have done differently? And you have to let uncomfortable silence then. And some people will then say, what do you mean? Like you're like, oh my gosh. But some people will say, well, I guess I could have helped Lucy write the notes. So what I try to do is stay in the discomfort, which is hard, and just sort of like, let's list out a few things you could have done differently and not be judgmental, like not judge the things. Just say what it was. So you could have helped Lucy write the notes. You could have set a deadline with her that was ahead of your deadline.”

    2024-08-09 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #762: Coach George Raveling and Claire Hughes Johnson · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

38. “I've seen both. I feel like with people who are earlier in their career, they're more, I'm all growth mindset, but they're a little more moldable and you can actually coach people out of this as like a way of operating. If they're later in their career, it's a little more ingrained and it's quite hard, especially because they tend to not be aware of it, because they've somehow been successful operating in that mode. And so they're kind of like, what are you saying? You see leaders who, you know how they behave to him is they say, well, if it's not under my direct control, then I am not responsible. And so they become empire builders. And some organizations let them get away with it. They're like, sure, you can have all the infrastructure teams then. Like it becomes this weird failing upward problem where people say, well, if I can control it, I'll take responsibility.”

    2024-08-09 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #762: Coach George Raveling and Claire Hughes Johnson · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

39. “And you're like, the report that you were meant to write, but how it actually manifests is you're supposed to write some report up or some summary of a meeting. And you say, oh, tell me where that is. And the player says completely my fault. I had planned to get it to you by 5 o'clock yesterday. I prioritized this emergency that came up. Didn't tell you, my bad. Can we renegotiate? Can I get it to you at 5 o'clock today? And you're like, fine. I wish you'd told me that you weren't going to get it, but the victim says, let me tell you about that report. Lucy owes me her notes and I can't finish it without Lucy. And Lucy, you know, is super slow at getting her notes. And I'm sorry. I don't know when I'm going to get it. But that actually is pretty common. People are like, well, this other person that I'm depending on, and therefore I have no responsibility.”

    2024-08-09 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #762: Coach George Raveling and Claire Hughes Johnson · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

40. “You're like, well, did you break it? So he has this really disarming way of introducing this concept, which is we're all laughing just like you and I. We're like, ha ha, the toy is broken. But then he's like, okay, now let's talk about if one of your direct reports came to you and said the report was not written.”

    2024-08-09 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #762: Coach George Raveling and Claire Hughes Johnson · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

41. “I love this one because I think it's so simplifying and clarifying really about are you managing someone or interacting with someone who has agency, takes responsibility. Friend, when he introduces this framework, tells the story of how young children, and he's the, I think he has six or seven children, by the way, but how young children when something has happened that they know is bad will not take responsibility. So they will say things like the coat is at school.”

    2024-08-09 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #762: Coach George Raveling and Claire Hughes Johnson · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

42. “Yeah, exactly. People super don't like that. So, what can I do? What can I say? And my feeling is it's usually a question that opens the aperture of the conversation there, but keeps them in a mode of curiosity, openness. How can I ask? And the problem and the art here, and this is why you have to practice it. And it's uncomfortable, is sometimes you say something too general. You're like, is there something you're not telling me? That's not going to work because that's going to make them think, wait a minute, is there some like paranoid thing? So it has to be more like, you can use the words. I'm hearing a concern about the work of this other team. Say more. Are you concerned? And I'm all about hypotheses. I love management by hypothesis. Which is like, I think this is happening. I'm going to name it. I'm going to name the hypothesis I have. And then I want you to validate it or by the way fight with me. Say to me, no, no, no. I have data to the contrary. And I'm happy to revise my.”

    2024-08-09 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #762: Coach George Raveling and Claire Hughes Johnson · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

43. “I'm judging and I'm like, oh, I'm convinced that they're pissed at this other team, or I'm convinced my friend and her husband are having problems and I'm going to solve them. But like to detoxify it, you have to sort of float above yourself and say, it is not going to be productive for me to open my mouth and issue a judgment on another person or someone else's work product.”

    2024-08-09 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #762: Coach George Raveling and Claire Hughes Johnson · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

44. “Exactly. But there's also Tim, I'm sure you can picture an example in a personal situation where you know there all the time where you take a risk with a friend and you say, hey, have you told your husband that you feel that way? So the detoxifying though in any of these examples is in your mind you're having a judgment. We're always judging. The brain looks for shortcuts. We know this.”

    2024-08-09 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #762: Coach George Raveling and Claire Hughes Johnson · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

45. “Robbing Venn Exactly. And I think really what it was is they both had a part of their team that was sort of doing the same thing and they were feeling dependent on each other. It was almost like a yin-yang. And they're like, didn't have the whole picture. And I was like, all right, someone needs to have the whole thing under their control. So it was almost duplicate plus dependency, which is sort of worse.”

    2024-08-09 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #762: Coach George Raveling and Claire Hughes Johnson · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

46. “And maybe of the team and their work. It did result in some deduping ultimately. But I think that's what I mean by say the thing.”

    2024-08-09 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #762: Coach George Raveling and Claire Hughes Johnson · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

47. “Don't feel confident in what they're building and that you're either dependent on them or competing with them with what you're building. And they were like, baby. I mean, it eventually became like, we don't have the right people in the room to have a conversation about the problem. And so we sort of stopped it and said, let's go do that to the credit of the rest of the people in the room. But as we left, one of the engineers who was sitting on this sort of periphery walked up to me on the stairs and he was like, that was refreshing. But why I'm bringing it up is to me that was a moment of leadership, which by the way, you don't have to be a VP or a COO to do that. The leadership is to say, I am observing a thing that people are clearly not saying and are uncomfortable and is actually seems to me like a bad practice happening. And I am going to just call it, like I'm going to ask, is this going on? Am I seeing this correctly? And it's going to change the whole trajectory of the meeting and the conversation.”

    2024-08-09 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #762: Coach George Raveling and Claire Hughes Johnson · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

48. “Wasn't my part of the org I hadn't heard about the details of some of these projects until this meeting. I'm reading the document. I'm listening to them talk. And I just said, can I just ask if there's something we're not talking about here? And they're all looking at me because I rarely poke in on certain moments with respect to like, what's our product roadmap? And is there something we're not talking about? And everyone looks at me and I said, I feel like you're really concerned about this other team, what they're building or what they're up to. Are you concerned? And initially, no, no, no. I mean, you know, it's fine. It's fine. Like they've got this thing they're doing that it's, I said, well, is it, do you think it's the same thing? Is that what I'm hearing? And I just started to ask a bunch of questions of the leader of the discussion. And I said, well, should that team be in the room right now? Should we have a meeting with both of you? Because it feels like there's asymmetrical information and that you all.”

    2024-08-09 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #762: Coach George Raveling and Claire Hughes Johnson · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

49. “Primarily working on an area of the product. So it's product and engineering leaders. It's not my part of the org that I run, but I'm invited to be there and I like to be there. I like to be close to the product. And I'm listening to the discussion. And it starts to become incredibly clear to me that the team is feeling defensive or blocked or angry. I couldn't quite tell what it was that there's another team doing some similar work. And by the way, if you've read any Jack Welch stuff, he actually had this tactic as a leader where he'd put”

    2024-08-09 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #762: Coach George Raveling and Claire Hughes Johnson · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

50. “Going to put it out there. And then the question is how do you do it with as much finesse as possible so that you don't end up having blowback, which believe me, I've sometimes said the thing I think I cannot say and had people look at me like, oh my goodness. But most of the time, I'm reading the room right. Here's an example, which is, I mean, just classic, more of a business example, but it certainly happens in my personal life too. So we went through various business planning types of tactics at Stripe, but one of them we were using for a while was your classic quarterly business review. You have teams come in, we've given them a template, and we say, please fill out these things. Let's see your data. Let's see where you are versus your goals, what's your strategy, what's your plan, write this memo. We're all going to read the memo, and then we're going to have this discussion about how you're doing. And often teams come in and they want more resources or they want us to solve something or decide something. And we're, of course, saying like, well, it's actually you're supposed to be deciding and solving. But it's a discussion with the executive team. And I'm sitting in one of these reviews with a team that's”

    2024-08-09 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #762: Coach George Raveling and Claire Hughes Johnson · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT