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Jag Duggal

lines on the record: 106
first: 2024-05-16
most recent: 2024-05-16
sittings or episodes: 1
sources: podcast

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“And startups are desperate entities because they're burning cash in almost every instance. But successful startups, the ones that become profitable, I'm very wary having given the places I've worked of the successful company with one or two monster products in Newbanks now in that fortunate position that starts to get conservative, that starts to forget that focus concentration customer obsession. Every bit as important that even though the company won't go bankrupt if products three, four, five, and six don't succeed because products one and two are monster cash flow drivers. That's a slow path to death. And so Practicing that discipline and having, and I use this word very intentionally, having the courage to make those hard choices And to concentrate the bets is”
2024-05-16 · Lenny's Podcast · Be fundamentally different, not incrementally better | Jag Duggal (Nubank, Facebook, Google, Quantcast) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Izzy's fantastic. And having those frameworks, all of which in many ways, if you synthesize them, are getting at the same thing around focus, around a clear understanding of the customer, around not trying to be in the words that we literally have them on New Bank Coffee Mugs. We're not trying to be incrementally better. We are trying to be fundamentally different. These are all very similar ideas expressed in slightly different ways. Once you understand the frameworks and you distill them, It's about practicing them and practicing them is scary, hedging Hedging is appealing. Hedging means you don't have to make choices Hedging sounds smart. Concentrating all your bets is the thing the desperate people do.”
2024-05-16 · Lenny's Podcast · Be fundamentally different, not incrementally better | Jag Duggal (Nubank, Facebook, Google, Quantcast) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“One is taking it seriously. It's a little bit like what we talked about with Newbank's culture first, you got to want the customer to love you fanatically as something that you value. After that, I think frameworks really help, whether it's good strategy, bad strategy, whether it's play to win from a relatively recent guest of yours, Christopher Lockheed, who I really admire. Whether it's where to play, how to win from Roger Martin, which is a phenomenal book about...”
2024-05-16 · Lenny's Podcast · Be fundamentally different, not incrementally better | Jag Duggal (Nubank, Facebook, Google, Quantcast) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“You're not getting traction across the company. Whereas strategy allows focus and it allows a much more rapid read of whether your focused bets, your concentrated bets are actually working. You've had some investors on your podcast over the years, and they will tell you that concentration is what builds wealth. Diversification is what preserves wealth. You're a startup, you're not trying to preserve anything, you're trying to build something. It requires concentrated bets, not hedging. And because you're concentrating bets, those bets are high stakes. You need to be very, very clear on what bets you're making and why you think it's going to succeed.”
2024-05-16 · Lenny's Podcast · Be fundamentally different, not incrementally better | Jag Duggal (Nubank, Facebook, Google, Quantcast) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“And we could do that because we were branchless in digital. Now, that is a coherent description of a very specific problem for a very specific set of customers with a very specific solution based on a very specific advantage. By the way, all of this predated my, it's got nothing to do with me. I wasn't there. But that's what I mean. Strategy is very specific. It's very detailed. It's very locked in. And working backwards from that, I think, is really, really important. And if you get that strategy right, it informs the minimal set of activities you need to do to get traction and to win. Whereas if you don't have that degree of coherence, you're trying to surrogate the customers. Maybe we should go to Mexico prematurely. All sorts of things happen and your execution gets very diffuse and you can't even tell.”
2024-05-16 · Lenny's Podcast · Be fundamentally different, not incrementally better | Jag Duggal (Nubank, Facebook, Google, Quantcast) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“And that's a very, very rough paraphrase of the way he thinks about the world. And I find that we often confuse strategy with a vision, a broad idea, a very, very broad, vague aspiration. New Bank strategy isn't we want to be the world's largest neobank. We do, but that's not an interesting way to dimensionalize the problem. In 2014, we had millennial, middle class urban Brazilians who hated paying credit card fees and were not able to get credit in the first place because they were too young and without a credit history. And we could offer them not just a lower priced credit card, but a no fee credit card, which was an emotional thing. That fee got people angry.”
2024-05-16 · Lenny's Podcast · Be fundamentally different, not incrementally better | Jag Duggal (Nubank, Facebook, Google, Quantcast) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“You will have a clearer read on if you are going off course because you kind of have a very clear idea of what was supposed to be happening. And so I think being very clear in your strategy is really important. You've had some great guests on the podcast. Richard Rumelt is one of my absolute favorites. He's written a couple of books, one called Good Strategy, Bad Strategy, another more recent one called The Crux, where he does a great service to the world by even more than describing what strategy is, focusing at the beginning about what strategy isn't. Strategy isn't an ambitious goal. It's not an aspiration. It's not a set of financial outcomes. It is a coherent plan for how you're going to apply your strengths in a leveraged way against a core important problem.”
2024-05-16 · Lenny's Podcast · Be fundamentally different, not incrementally better | Jag Duggal (Nubank, Facebook, Google, Quantcast) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“From Kevin Sistrom in the early days of Instagram. I heard him say it at a conference. This is pre the Facebook acquisition. And he was like, I don't know how old he had just left Googling. It was probably, I don't know, 20-some years old. He said, we may not be right, but at least we are clear. And what I love about that is, even if your strategy isn't right, and it will never be exactly right, because no plan ever is.”
2024-05-16 · Lenny's Podcast · Be fundamentally different, not incrementally better | Jag Duggal (Nubank, Facebook, Google, Quantcast) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“And I think that's probably because there are a small number of companies that get the strategy right, but the legendary companies that we all know about not only got the strategy right, but then executed it really crisply. We don't hear about the companies that got the strategy wrong, never got even into the conversation, and all of their great execution was multiplied by zero. Great execution multiplied by a poor strategy is a waste of everyone's time. And because the strategy isn't clear, You can waste a lot of time executing years and years against something that was destined never to work. One of my favorite quotes from the valley.”
2024-05-16 · Lenny's Podcast · Be fundamentally different, not incrementally better | Jag Duggal (Nubank, Facebook, Google, Quantcast) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I will readily admit I bring a bias. I spent almost a decade at the beginning of my career right after college working at a strategy consulting firm. So I bring a bias, which is an Some degree, certainly for the length of time I did it, an unusual Background for a product manager. When I first showed up at Google, it took me a couple of years to realize my job was not to produce A nice PowerPoint. It was to ship code. And that was doing a poor job of that for at least the first 12 to 18 months. But I think there is almost a countervailing dogma in Silicon Valley or in tech companies more generally that strategy is easy and execution is everything.”
2024-05-16 · Lenny's Podcast · Be fundamentally different, not incrementally better | Jag Duggal (Nubank, Facebook, Google, Quantcast) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“In the direction of what you hope they would say to not be like, jump in with a lot of excitement and then get into more of a cell mode with them. And almost tried to sell against your idea, push back against your idea, make the customer sell you in the interaction. And you play the devil's advocate. So those are the kinds of things we search for as we build products.”
2024-05-16 · Lenny's Podcast · Be fundamentally different, not incrementally better | Jag Duggal (Nubank, Facebook, Google, Quantcast) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Just mechanically. So we're going into a product development cycle that says there is a new social banking arrangement. Is not about Tweeting, and it's not about social very broadly defined. It is about our financial lies, our inherently social, and it is very hard to share with my spouse, with my kids, with my parents who might be helping me pay for my child's education as an example use case. A very strong hypothesis. But when you go into the research with the customer, you don't try to sell them. You try to see if they are experiencing pain points. And it becomes very hard when you're in, and they say even something a little bit.”
2024-05-16 · Lenny's Podcast · Be fundamentally different, not incrementally better | Jag Duggal (Nubank, Facebook, Google, Quantcast) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I was doing some research on this just last week. The joint bank account was invented in the early, it's actually hard to say, but it was invented depending on where source you believe. In the late 19th or early 20th century It was basically invented coincident with the social liberation social movements before women in the US were legally allowed to vote, where women were not allowed to open a bank account without their husband's prior approval. That is the era from which the joint bank account that we still live with today came from. It's 120 to 150 years old. Don't think it's surprising our hypothesis is it's not surprising that that artifact, that that product Not made for the modern customer. That it is easier for me to share a Spotify playlist with my wife or my daughter than it is for me to share. Savings”
2024-05-16 · Lenny's Podcast · Be fundamentally different, not incrementally better | Jag Duggal (Nubank, Facebook, Google, Quantcast) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“One of the famous examples that's somewhat hypothesis related and somewhat observation related is the invention of the Swiffer from Procter& Gamble, right? People hate mopping and they will do it and they won't even realize how painful an experienced it is because they've just developed the workarounds and they just deal with the burden. But if you observe very granularly what the problems are, then you can You can see where the problems are. And so if you bring a strong hypothesis to This is a real problem, even if customers aren't telling you it's from because they've just sort of gotten used to it. So that's one. We have a hypothesis at New Bank. I'll give you one that's live. We have a hypothesis at Newbank that the joint bank account.”
2024-05-16 · Lenny's Podcast · Be fundamentally different, not incrementally better | Jag Duggal (Nubank, Facebook, Google, Quantcast) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Exactly, have a point of view on what you think the customer will say that will lead them to be really excited about your product You will get very clearly Or yes, bang the table excitement, and you will know when you're getting that reaction.”
2024-05-16 · Lenny's Podcast · Be fundamentally different, not incrementally better | Jag Duggal (Nubank, Facebook, Google, Quantcast) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Observe more than ask questions if you can. Ask indirect questions, more than direct questions. Would you love this province? Excited product manager has been working for two months on a design. You're searching for the problem more than the solution. You're searching. For you're looking indirectly and asking from multiple directions the same question rather than trying to find a yes. They love the thing you've been thinking about and sweating on for a long time. And if you can observing is better than asking, although that's a tricky skill. Those are the things that I look for.”
2024-05-16 · Lenny's Podcast · Be fundamentally different, not incrementally better | Jag Duggal (Nubank, Facebook, Google, Quantcast) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“If you don't have a hypothesis, you're going to spend a lot of time researching. You're going to get a lot of data back, qualitative, anecdotal, or quantitative, and you're not going to know what to make of it because it's not either validating or invalidating your hypothesis because there isn't a hypothesis. So it just becomes an interesting conversation. Third one Is I've got a hypothesis. I've got it really crisp. And now the pitfall is I've fallen in love with my hypothesis. I'm a lawyer for my hypothesis. I'm not a judge of whether the hypothesis is right or not right. So I think that's another common pitfall. I've fallen into that one. Too many times to count. And then the last thing I would highlight is even when you have a strong hypothesis and you're actually in the mode of doing the research.”
2024-05-16 · Lenny's Podcast · Be fundamentally different, not incrementally better | Jag Duggal (Nubank, Facebook, Google, Quantcast) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“But it's very, very, it's one of the areas of greatest inconsistency that I see in product development. Having said that, a couple of things that I see that we sometimes do really well at Newbank and other times we miss on one dimension or the other. First off, Jeff Bezos anecdote, the anecdote usually trumps the data. And there are many times when I see teams that are, you know, very sophisticated analysis and they've sort of forgotten what the question is or what the conclusion they can draw from it truly is so never lose sight of the value of the customer's words and the anecdote that's one the second One that I believe very, very strongly in is I think teams often skip the step of clearly very, very clearly working very hard to be super crisp in articulating their hypothesis.”
2024-05-16 · Lenny's Podcast · Be fundamentally different, not incrementally better | Jag Duggal (Nubank, Facebook, Google, Quantcast) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I'll share a couple of thoughts, but I will tell you as a preface that it is arguably the area right now that I still wrestle with. I still think I and we are not doing it as well. I've never seen it done quite as consistently great as it could be. And I think it's an area where design thinking and a lot of the design function can help us.”
2024-05-16 · Lenny's Podcast · Be fundamentally different, not incrementally better | Jag Duggal (Nubank, Facebook, Google, Quantcast) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“But if you genuinely believe it's not yet ready to scale your product, at the end of the day, the big mess is the thing you're still going to own. And we're all going to forget that we told you to scale the thing. We're all going to still blame you at the end of the day. So you might as well bite the bullet earlier, pivot it when it's easier to do. It'll work out better in the end”
2024-05-16 · Lenny's Podcast · Be fundamentally different, not incrementally better | Jag Duggal (Nubank, Facebook, Google, Quantcast) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“If you think you are practicing for one of those senior jobs, it's sort of, let's say, a mid level, then you got to, it doesn't come miraculously when you get a C-suite title. It's something that's going to be practiced. It's something that is expected. And I think that's not a Justin Eubank thing. Certain cultures promote it better than others. But I think it's pretty universally important. And so I would just encourage people to. Try it, understand the trade offs, understand the challenge, articulate the other side.”
2024-05-16 · Lenny's Podcast · Be fundamentally different, not incrementally better | Jag Duggal (Nubank, Facebook, Google, Quantcast) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Senior leaders at companies that have gone, especially startups that have scaled well, you usually have people who have been in that boat, who have seen products that weren't working, who have killed them or who have pivoted them pretty dramatically. And there's a lot of respect for someone who has a real clarity of thought and brings a high bar and is not simply going with the flow. So I think that's the main thing is bringing that ownership mindset. And the second is bringing clarity and bringing data and understanding that Most senior executives in whichever company are strong willed and bring strong opinions. That's part of the job description. That's okay. It is your job, whether a product or design or engineering or whatever function as a leader to”
2024-05-16 · Lenny's Podcast · Be fundamentally different, not incrementally better | Jag Duggal (Nubank, Facebook, Google, Quantcast) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“One of the things I've learned relatively. Later in my career, I wish I'd learned it decade earlier, decades earlier even, is how important culture is. And I've talked about the five cultural tenets, but this idea of we are owners, not renters. You're an owner of that product as the product manager or the lead engineer or the lead designer, or in fact, anyone on the team. If you really don't think it's going to work, don't tell me what I want to hear. It's incumbent on you. It's expected of you as an owner to tell me the bad news and tell it to me early, even when it's convenient, even when there's a promotion at stake. These dynamics get very real very quickly, then look, I don't think it's going to work and here's why, or it's not working, and here's why, or we should kill it and here's why. The second thing I would say is”
2024-05-16 · Lenny's Podcast · Be fundamentally different, not incrementally better | Jag Duggal (Nubank, Facebook, Google, Quantcast) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Something isn't working at small scale, no problem, especially if we have a strong hypothesis in a lot of ways of getting good customer feedback. We iterate, we iterate, we iterate, we get it right. And then once we get it right, scaling, if you do it right, in many cases takes care of itself because the customer is now excitedly telling their friends. Whereas you can pour a lot of money and a lot of effort. And when you have a big app like Newbank or places like Google and Facebook, you can make any product look great for months, if not years, because you have such a large customer base. You can always get them to try it with all sorts of basic techniques. But you're bouncing a dead cat. And then you've got a real Of making that judgment call.”
2024-05-16 · Lenny's Podcast · Be fundamentally different, not incrementally better | Jag Duggal (Nubank, Facebook, Google, Quantcast) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“To scale a product is immense. And the job of the product manager in many instances is to say no. And one of the things I try to say frequently within the walls of Newbank is. We are not going to take a small problem and scale it because if we do that, we end up with a big mess.”
2024-05-16 · Lenny's Podcast · Be fundamentally different, not incrementally better | Jag Duggal (Nubank, Facebook, Google, Quantcast) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Know we've used a series of tools, many of this, the main survey vendor tools. We still use many of them, but we don't standardize or find one that dramatically changes our life beyond the mindset We are going to make sure that this product has product market fit before we scale it. One of the things I've seen throughout my career as a product manager and CPO, we live with it today at NewBank every month is the pressure on the line product manager to scale the product that the entire company, the entire executive team, the entire management chain has been counting on. We're launching this thing. As you stand Chippagomantos, we all want it to scale. We all are very excited about it. We had the product review six months ago and we thought this is going to be amazing. And the pressure on that product manager.”
2024-05-16 · Lenny's Podcast · Be fundamentally different, not incrementally better | Jag Duggal (Nubank, Facebook, Google, Quantcast) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Pick up the phone. Because you can get tone of voice Brazilians and Mexicans are incredibly expressive. There is a degree of real fine grained sense that the statistics never tell you. And it's very aligned with design thinking, and there's a lot of literature around how this works well. And I wouldn't say we're doing it, especially to the best practice scientific. We're just like, just make the call, make it as simple as unobtrusive with as little overhead as possible to make sure the voice of the customer is coming directly into the teams that are building.”
2024-05-16 · Lenny's Podcast · Be fundamentally different, not incrementally better | Jag Duggal (Nubank, Facebook, Google, Quantcast) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Nine times out of ten, by the time you've made your fist call, you could predict what's customer six, seven, eight, nine, and 10 are going to tell you. And then you know what it is that is the gap or what it is that is truly resonating that you want to double down on. So we're constantly trying to iterate in small ways the ways to get really that voice of the customer straightlined into the people who are building the product.”
2024-05-16 · Lenny's Podcast · Be fundamentally different, not incrementally better | Jag Duggal (Nubank, Facebook, Google, Quantcast) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“We've told many of our product managers and designers over the last two years, don't worry about surveying a thousand customers, taking three weeks surveying a thousand customers, getting a bunch of cros tabs, even at the end of which it's very hard to read the real fine-grained customer feedback. So we just tell them, call 10 of them. Pick up the phone yourself. Don't ask a researcher to come up with a plan to go do the research to then summarize it to then bring it to you, which has so many degrees of distance built in, you pick up the phone, call 10 of them.”
2024-05-16 · Lenny's Podcast · Be fundamentally different, not incrementally better | Jag Duggal (Nubank, Facebook, Google, Quantcast) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“We know that fairly frequently when we did our, we have a high income rewards credit card. It's called Ultra Violetta. We went through a similar process. We're at launch. There were many different customer segments. But there was one that really loved the product, and it was not surprising. There were the ones that where the customers spent enough each month that they got the fee waiver and then all of the other benefits that we had built in really resonated. Whereas if you were paying the monthly fee, Those other benefits were not quite as exciting or didn't quite compensate. So we've done this several times and we've started recently combining it with trying to get very agile in getting that feedback from that bullseye segment.”
2024-05-16 · Lenny's Podcast · Be fundamentally different, not incrementally better | Jag Duggal (Nubank, Facebook, Google, Quantcast) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“And that's what we've done. We've systematically made dozens of iterations on the product to allow customers to in one go do multiple bills across multiple rails and make that tiny bullseye cohort that we had, segment that we had, a larger and larger proportion of the customers who are trying. And by the way, that's a journey still underway. We have a whole roadmap for the next year of lots of small quality adjustments that we're going to make. And we're seeing some great feedback. We're now over 10 million monthly actives on that product when we were struggling in the hundreds of thousands about 15 months ago.”
2024-05-16 · Lenny's Podcast · Be fundamentally different, not incrementally better | Jag Duggal (Nubank, Facebook, Google, Quantcast) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“And there, Sean Ellis score hit 70. And we're like, okay, the key is we need to consolidate across these rails, not have them one by one. And we need to make it easy for customers to onboard multiple bills across multiple rails. And then the automation takes over and people see the real benefit because there are ways on the surface, if you said to the average person anywhere, you know, any sort of developed country, we're going to have a bill autopay. That's on the face of it not necessarily exciting. But if you build it right, Is actually a fundamentally different experience rather than incrementally better experience.”
2024-05-16 · Lenny's Podcast · Be fundamentally different, not incrementally better | Jag Duggal (Nubank, Facebook, Google, Quantcast) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“And the consequences for not paying a bill is getting reported to the credit bureau and becoming what is called negativado, having a negative mark on your credit report. And that can be a big deal for the average customer. And so this was a real deep pain point. And as we launched the product in a Reed Hoffman style, if you are not embarrassed by V1, you've waited too long. As we've done that last year, We found that a very interesting pattern. We had a decent Sean Ellis score, borderline 40. I forget the exact number, but basically in that ballpark. But we found that customers who had, there was a small cohort of a customer base who had more than four plus commitments registered. And even more so within that small cohort at even smaller bullseye cohort who had more than four commitments on at least two of the four rails.”
2024-05-16 · Lenny's Podcast · Be fundamentally different, not incrementally better | Jag Duggal (Nubank, Facebook, Google, Quantcast) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Quite complex. There are four different ways, four different payment rails, different payments that different payments use from the mobile payment system that has exploded in Brazil the last three years called PICS. It's become fairly world famous in the fintech world to more standard and some more archaic rails as well. So if you're a customer, you've got to keep track of your bills like we all do. You've got to keep track of which rail you got to collect your bills. You got to make sure that you pay them. And some of the rails actually aren't that reliable. So you've paid it. It doesn't go through.”
2024-05-16 · Lenny's Podcast · Be fundamentally different, not incrementally better | Jag Duggal (Nubank, Facebook, Google, Quantcast) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I'll give you one that we're wrestling with right now. We have a product called Asistenci di Pagomentos, Payments Assistant. Paying bills, it's right now only launched in Brazil. We haven't yet launched it in Mexico and Colombia. Paying bills in Brazil is”
2024-05-16 · Lenny's Podcast · Be fundamentally different, not incrementally better | Jag Duggal (Nubank, Facebook, Google, Quantcast) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“And he used the phrase which both Christian Kara, one of our co-founders, and I have now adopted, which is good enough isn't good enough. Is it great enough? Is it great enough? Because that's the bar, particularly for some of our 10-pole products, but we try to apply it largely across the board. A lot of companies, not just in Brazil or Latin, but everywhere, spend a ton of money on marketing. Their VC budgets, VC funding basically goes to Google and Facebook. And I've spent a lot of my career taking that money on board for Google and Facebook, but it is a much better scenario if that's a small portion of what you're doing and the main portion of what you're doing is actually investing and making the product great that you don't have to do that.”
2024-05-16 · Lenny's Podcast · Be fundamentally different, not incrementally better | Jag Duggal (Nubank, Facebook, Google, Quantcast) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Yeah, that's right. There are several sort of on the newer side of products that we're launching now. We're at borderline 50. And my push to the team is what are the three, four, five things you need to build to really get decisively beyond 50? And what are the segments or cohorts where it is above 50? And what is that telling us versus the cohorts where it's lower than that? So we put a lot of analytical effort and a lot of depth of thinking to We were in a product review several years ago, and our lead designer Who's ex Google and ex Facebook? We were in a review together, and the team was saying, we think this is good enough for launch”
2024-05-16 · Lenny's Podcast · Be fundamentally different, not incrementally better | Jag Duggal (Nubank, Facebook, Google, Quantcast) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Yeah, we basically operationalize it. We don't have it as a hard and fast rule that is in black and white. But essentially, that's the question people know they're going to get in any product review that's a post-launch, you know, post-data kind of product review is what's the Sean Ellis score? How do you know that customers love it? Not just like it, but love it to the degree that they're going to tell their friends about it. That's pretty big to end culturally at this point.”
2024-05-16 · Lenny's Podcast · Be fundamentally different, not incrementally better | Jag Duggal (Nubank, Facebook, Google, Quantcast) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“NPS's post launch. We also look at metrics like churn to make sure that we're not building a leaky bucket. And that's part of this viral customer acquisition loop that we've built. We want to make sure we're building products that are great enough, that our customers will tell their friends and we don't have to invest as much in marketing to drive our growth. And that only works if the customers you get you retain. I have built earlier in my career products that have leaky buckets, and that's a very frustrating treadmill to be on. So I am personally maniacal about making sure that the bucket doesn't have a hole in the bottom.”
2024-05-16 · Lenny's Podcast · Be fundamentally different, not incrementally better | Jag Duggal (Nubank, Facebook, Google, Quantcast) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Yeah, which is way better than we got in Brazil, but our NPS scores skew in the 70s, 80s, and occasionally 90s. And when they dip down even one or two points, that's a reason for alarm. And we try to figure out why and we try to make sure that we make the iterations. So those are things we build in. Those are things we build in.”
2024-05-16 · Lenny's Podcast · Be fundamentally different, not incrementally better | Jag Duggal (Nubank, Facebook, Google, Quantcast) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Unless 50% of Brazilians are telling us they would be very disappointed because Brazilians are inherently polite, more polite and more optimistic than average. So we make our own little tweaks and adjustments, but we find that to be very Very helpful as a company. This extends beyond product, we are addicted to our NPS score and we reach for world-beating net promoter scores as a company and product vertical by product vertical as well. And we are maniacal about tracking how we do. And again, we We compensate for some cultural biases and we make sure that we hold ourselves to a high bar, but there have been, for example, in Mexico, we've recorded an NPS when we launched the first couple of years of 94.95, right? That's absurd.”
2024-05-16 · Lenny's Podcast · Be fundamentally different, not incrementally better | Jag Duggal (Nubank, Facebook, Google, Quantcast) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“This product went away. And what Sean has said is that if at least 40% of your customers are not very disappointed, not just a little disappointed, but very disappointed, he has sort of essentially a three-point scale, not disappointed, somewhat disappointed, very disappointed. If at least 40% are not very disappointed, you haven't reached product market fit. Now, we've had to do some things in Newbank. Brazilians are a culturally happier group than the global average. So for us, our threshold isn't 40%. We've generally moved it up to 50%. I don't believe we have product market fit.”
2024-05-16 · Lenny's Podcast · Be fundamentally different, not incrementally better | Jag Duggal (Nubank, Facebook, Google, Quantcast) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Yeah, the Sean Ellis score is a really simple methodology used by lots of. Which basically asks your customers at each stage. And at each stage, you have a small number of customers, then a larger group and growing over time. But at each stage, you ask them, how disappointed would you be?”
2024-05-16 · Lenny's Podcast · Be fundamentally different, not incrementally better | Jag Duggal (Nubank, Facebook, Google, Quantcast) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Isn't always possible, but we frequently reach for that and sometimes find it. And then there are the things you do after you've built and launched the product, whether it's alpha, beta or a later stage, the measurement stuff and some of your previous guests have talked about product market fit and how do you measure we actually, it's strange because, you know, I was sitting here in Silicon Valley for well over a decade. I land in Sao Paulo when I first joined Newbank and the small product team at the time was telling me about this thing called Sean Ellis score. And we recently had Sean visit us in Sao Paulo and talk to all of the product managers and designers. But we are amongst the most fanatical followers of his methodology anywhere in the world. We rarely scale a project, a product we've launched.”
2024-05-16 · Lenny's Podcast · Be fundamentally different, not incrementally better | Jag Duggal (Nubank, Facebook, Google, Quantcast) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Unexplained to me, actually. Explain to the intended customer why they should care. Because if you can't tell me in two paragraphs why the customer you're building this for should care, then it's still work to do. So that's one technique. We do have product and design reviews several times a week where we're asking ourselves that question. Why is this great for the customer? Why is this fundamentally different for the customer? How does this redefine the category that we are thinking about on the dimensions of quality, on the dimensions of complexity, on the dimensions of price? And usually on the dimensions of all three of those at the same time and breaking some of the trade-off constraints that you often wrestle with and seeing if that's possible.”
2024-05-16 · Lenny's Podcast · Be fundamentally different, not incrementally better | Jag Duggal (Nubank, Facebook, Google, Quantcast) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Yeah, we do a few things. And again, I don't want to also overstate that we've achieved some kind of nirvana. We honored many of these things in the breach sometimes. We have a series of techniques that we've begged, borrowed, stolen from other places, some of which we've invented on our own, but some examples. We love the Amazon mock press release technique. Explain to me before we've put a single engineer on the project.”
2024-05-16 · Lenny's Podcast · Be fundamentally different, not incrementally better | Jag Duggal (Nubank, Facebook, Google, Quantcast) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Know the five I'll mention them in the order that most resonate with me. First, we want our customers to love us fanatically. Second, we are hungry and we challenge the status quo. Third, we build strong and diverse teams. Fourth, we pursue smart efficiency, and one that is in many ways underlying all of it is we think and act like owners, not renters. We do what is right even when no one is telling us. Do it. And we have many instances of our employees sort of taking that degree of extreme ownership as they build products and get them launched.”
2024-05-16 · Lenny's Podcast · Be fundamentally different, not incrementally better | Jag Duggal (Nubank, Facebook, Google, Quantcast) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Love, you've got to observe them and find their pain points even when they aren't noticing it. And then as you build, you commit to measuring whether they in fact love the product, not fooling yourself about that and iterating like crazy over and over and over again until you get it just right. So those are some of the principles. But I think the trade craft follows the focus on finding a real deeply held, emotionally held pain point. And a culture that says that's your North Star.”
2024-05-16 · Lenny's Podcast · Be fundamentally different, not incrementally better | Jag Duggal (Nubank, Facebook, Google, Quantcast) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“And look, I don't think we have been perfect on that, but we try very hard. And when there are hard decisions to be made, We bias in favor of the customer, the customer's love. Will they want to tell their friends and neighbors and family about it? And so I think that's the heart of it. Once you get those things right, the deep pain point and a culture that is maniacal about making your customers fanical, then you start to do the tradecraft of product development. You make sure that you focus on customer discovery before you start building. You make sure that that discovery is focused not simply on asking the customer, but on innovating on their behalf. You make sure that you take techniques from all over the place, from Procter and Gamble to Google to you name it, of maybe you can't ask the customer to tell you what massive new innovation they would.”
2024-05-16 · Lenny's Podcast · Be fundamentally different, not incrementally better | Jag Duggal (Nubank, Facebook, Google, Quantcast) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“And I remember when I interviewed at Newbank for the first time and actually flew down to Sao Paulo, I remember seeing that phrase and thinking, these are my guys. These guys are taking this seriously. And a lot of my interview process from my side was really vetting if that was real or if that was a sign on the wall. So I think you start with the intent that you are going to make your customers love you. And there are a million reasons operational convenience short-term financial viability, which is a real thing when you're a venture-funded startup. Any number of reasons why you can compromise those things on the edges in a decision sort of day-to-day, minute to minute, now we can cut the edges, cut the corner here on that.”
2024-05-16 · Lenny's Podcast · Be fundamentally different, not incrementally better | Jag Duggal (Nubank, Facebook, Google, Quantcast) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source