YouSaid · the spoken record

Karl Deisseroth

lines on the record: 178
first: 2022-04-07
most recent: 2022-04-07
sittings or episodes: 1
sources: podcast

Every line below is reproduced as it was said and linked to the record it came from. Nothing here is summarised or generated. Directory · Search · Corrections

“It's been incredibly fun. Let's do it again sometime. Let's do it again. It's been really great. Your insights and wit and modesty are really quite rewarding. Thanks so much.”
2022-04-07 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #274 – Karl Deisseroth: Depression, Schizophrenia, and Psychiatry · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Yeah, we're clearly designed for that, right? We're clearly designed to ask why and to answer. And that, I think, I don't know the meaning of all life. I think a meaning of our lives is that, and this is the Aristotelian, you know, happiness. This is an organism is happy, an animal's happy if it's performing to its design, right? He's doing what it was made for.”
2022-04-07 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #274 – Karl Deisseroth: Depression, Schizophrenia, and Psychiatry · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“You know, with something with nature always has surprises for us, we're always, the curious mind is always. After more, but.”
2022-04-07 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #274 – Karl Deisseroth: Depression, Schizophrenia, and Psychiatry · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I do. Yeah, it comes back to what we talked about earlier. I never think I've done enough and it's relevant to that for sure.”
2022-04-07 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #274 – Karl Deisseroth: Depression, Schizophrenia, and Psychiatry · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I have hope, I have hope I'm, it's very hard to predict what will happen with big things like this. If we don't get there, there'll be plenty of other exciting stuff, so it's okay”
2022-04-07 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #274 – Karl Deisseroth: Depression, Schizophrenia, and Psychiatry · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“That's right. And I think keeping a toe hold in both at the cellular level of resolution and the brainwide resolution will be critical. If you lose touch with either, I think you'll miss the big insight. So that's what we're trying to do, keeping grounded in the cellular resolution, trying to keep the broadest brainwide perspective and meet in the middle.”
2022-04-07 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #274 – Karl Deisseroth: Depression, Schizophrenia, and Psychiatry · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“And here's the challenge the nice thing about the thought experiment is it kind of highlights We're going to hit a point where Addressing some very, very fundamental questions, what allows the activity of two sets of neurons to become mutually relevant to each other? This is in some ways maybe one of the deepest remaining questions in neuroscience is what allows activity patterns to become relevant to each other. Do they have to be in sync? temporarily do they need to be Is there some other quality that we don't know about that also needs to be present to allow cells to fuse together into a joint representation?”
2022-04-07 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #274 – Karl Deisseroth: Depression, Schizophrenia, and Psychiatry · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“And in late 2020, we published a paper in Nature showing how this could be. We used optogenetics to Drive this rhythm that ketamine and PCP cause in retrosplenial cortex, and we got different parts of the brain to be out of sync, and when they were active, never able to be active at the same time, never able to form a joint representation at the same time. And so we've got a toehold into these questions. We don't have the answers”
2022-04-07 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #274 – Karl Deisseroth: Depression, Schizophrenia, and Psychiatry · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“We have different parts of our brain exist, and sometimes create complex awareness of things that involve Different neurons that are distributed widely and that need to communicate with each other to form this joint representation, this state of consciousness. But indeed, why do they have to be in the same head? We don't know why that would be the case that they do. And so that's a huge Unanswered question in the field is what is it that binds the activity of neurons together so they can form a joint representation? And actually this comes back to the dissociation experiment we talked about before where your sense of self becomes separated from your body. Things that were fused in a joint representation, the same concept unitary, are now separate.”
2022-04-07 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #274 – Karl Deisseroth: Depression, Schizophrenia, and Psychiatry · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Yeah, yeah. Maybe Paradox is the wrong word. We got a problem. We got a problem because it reveals. That there's something big about that internal subjective state that we're not explaining. And we don't really have a hope of explaining in the near future.”
2022-04-07 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #274 – Karl Deisseroth: Depression, Schizophrenia, and Psychiatry · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Maybe let's not put them all over the universe because we might get relativistic problems then. Let's just keep all your neurons. Let's spread them over North America, okay? And let's play them out. Same pattern of activity, and right, it seems absurd, right? There's no way that could be true. There's no way that Lex would be feeling that internal sense if his neurons were spread all over North America. And yet, it's exactly the same as the previous situation where you said, sure. So we've got a paradox, and this is what makes people think”
2022-04-07 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #274 – Karl Deisseroth: Depression, Schizophrenia, and Psychiatry · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Your brain cells don't need to be in your head anymore at all, right? The only reason they're next to each other, the only reason they're wired together is to affect each other, to stimulate or inhibit each other. But we don't need that anymore because optogenetically we're providing that activity pattern for as long as needed. We're providing the effect of the communication. They don't need to be connected anymore. Even need to be in your head. I could spread your neurons. Over the continent, all over the galaxy And I could still provide the same stimulus pattern over 10 or 15 seconds to all those neurons and somewhere Lex Friedman would be, would have to be, even though no longer existing as a physical object anymore, would be feeling that subjective feeling. And it's inescapable because it's exactly the same as the previous situation.”
2022-04-07 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #274 – Karl Deisseroth: Depression, Schizophrenia, and Psychiatry · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“So, the great thing about what you just said, the Turing test, is it's very practical. If it acts conscious, it is conscious. But I think that's limiting. I like the thought experiment. I think it's actually more informative. And so I'm halfway to the... The conclusion there, but let's take it as your answer was yes, that you would be feeling the same thing. Okay. Now here's where it gets fun. Now that every cell in your brain Knows what it has to do in the sense that we know it and we're providing it.”
2022-04-07 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #274 – Karl Deisseroth: Depression, Schizophrenia, and Psychiatry · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Feeling that same inner subjective sense. Stimulus is gone, every neuron's doing the same thing because I'm controlling it.”
2022-04-07 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #274 – Karl Deisseroth: Depression, Schizophrenia, and Psychiatry · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Let's say we could do the same thing for every single neuron in the brain of a human being. Let's say we had total control, and I could do something like I could show you a rich, deep color red, and you could look at it and you would be aware that it's red, but also you might have some feelings about it, something would be stirred in you, some subjective sense as you looked at that rich color red. I would take away the visual stimulus, and I would, in this thought experiment, I would using some hyperoptogenetics, I would play in exactly the same pattern of activity in every cell in your brain for as long as was needed, whatever fifteen seconds, something like that. Exactly matched. Was going on when you were feeling that inner subjective sense. Okay, so in that thought experiment, a question for you is would you”
2022-04-07 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #274 – Karl Deisseroth: Depression, Schizophrenia, and Psychiatry · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“So here's where exactly consciousness frames the problem extremely well. And it frames it the following way. So I told you earlier that we can. Stimulate 20 or 25 cells in the visual cortex of a mouse, and we can make it behave and we can make its brain act as if it's seeing something that isn't there. We have that level of control now. We can pick out 25 neurons, play in activity, and both behavior and in the brain. It's as if it's seeing something specific. Okay, now let's do a thought experiment, you know, a Gdonkin experiment, and let's play this out.”
2022-04-07 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #274 – Karl Deisseroth: Depression, Schizophrenia, and Psychiatry · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“So, this is a great question. All neuroscientists think about this and a lot of non-neuroscientists too. It's such a reason a lot of people came to the study of the brain is to think about consciousness and not just being awake or alert, but really what's sometimes called the hard problem of consciousness, which is what is that nature of that inner subjective sense we have, not just information processing. Feeling something about the information. What is that inner state of subjectivity physically? What is it? And that's called the hard problem of consciousness. And it's not extremely well defined question. Everybody has sort of a sense of what it means. Such a hard problem because you run into paradoxes quite quickly the more you think about it. And that... Exciting also because it makes us think actually there's some fundamental”
2022-04-07 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #274 – Karl Deisseroth: Depression, Schizophrenia, and Psychiatry · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“And so that was what made presumably that tier recruitment so powerful is it just landed in this very high value real estate for social communication if it had gone to, you know, there's a lot of neurons in the ponds that control movement of large muscles elsewhere, that would have been much less effective as a social signal than something around the eye. So that little misdirection happened, it landed in a great area for social communication. And because it was coming from the fear and anxiety circuits that regulate that necessary involuntary change in heart rate and respiratory rate, it also was involuntary and that became valuable as a truth signal as social beings. So very interesting when you think about the origins of the human family, the origins of social structures and our ability to...”
2022-04-07 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #274 – Karl Deisseroth: Depression, Schizophrenia, and Psychiatry · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“A little twist, just a little misdirection, a little missing of one signpost to stop here going on a little farther. Getting to the lacrimal gland neurons gave us crying.”
2022-04-07 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #274 – Karl Deisseroth: Depression, Schizophrenia, and Psychiatry · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“What we found, and with optogenetics, we helped sort this out there are long range projections from fear and anxiety regions in the forebrain that project all the way to the way to the pons in and around those areas. The reason those are there we think is to regulate the respiratory rate changes, the breathing changes of fear and anxiety. So we know when we're in a state of fear and anxiety, we need, we cope better if we have elevated heart rate, elevated respiratory rate, more blood pumping around, more oxygenated blood. We're ready to meet the threat if it happens. All those cells are down there in the ponds too, right next to Lacrimal duct the tear gland neurons. And so almost certainly this Fear anxiety induced. Crying arose from a very slightly misdirected long range projection that was there to regulate.”
2022-04-07 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #274 – Karl Deisseroth: Depression, Schizophrenia, and Psychiatry · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“And reflecting its ancient origin, right? As you go farther down toward the spinal cord, these are the more basic early evolved structures. And in the pons, that's where breathing is controlled. Tear duct contraction.”
2022-04-07 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #274 – Karl Deisseroth: Depression, Schizophrenia, and Psychiatry · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“There are long range projections that come. So, where's crying generated? This is the confusing thing about it. So we have a little tear duct, the lacrimal gland that leads to the release of fluid. It ejects fluid and it comes out. And those, of course, that whole system was designed to keep the eye clean, to wash out particulate irritants. So it's a longstanding, as long as we've had eyes and have been out of the water in our evolution, we've needed this sort of thing. So longstanding biological structure recently co-opted, it seems, by our evolution as social primates. How could that happen? Well, the lacrimal gland is controlled by structures in the ponds, which is a structure deep in just above our neck, between our neck and our head.”
2022-04-07 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #274 – Karl Deisseroth: Depression, Schizophrenia, and Psychiatry · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“But I'm not enough for myself. I need the community. That, I think, is what the social signal of crying is. Now, people have studied crying. It's an extreme, you can quantify the extent to which the presence of tears on a face triggers reactions in onlookers. And you can show the same face in the presence or absence of tears and show that to people under quantifiable and rigorous psychological conditions. And tears are much more powerful at stirring the desire to help in Viewers than any other facial feature, which is pretty interesting that it's the honest one that's also the most powerful, right? It kind of indicates there's a certain logic to our design As social beings, that we have an honest report.”
2022-04-07 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #274 – Karl Deisseroth: Depression, Schizophrenia, and Psychiatry · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“The book. In fact, the whole first chapter really, really tussles with crying as a, why do we do it? What does it mean? Why is it involuntary? It seems like a weakness, right? Because it's so involuntary and it's reflecting something true and inside. At the level of the individual, that seems like a problem, right? Wouldn't it be better if we could control it, if we could not show that emotion when it's not useful, show it when it's useful? But it's not. It largely involuntary. And so there's a value to it, I think, as an honest reporter of a need, of hope. And frailty at the same time. I'm a human being. There's a Frailty to myself or my situation where I need social help, I need help from my community. I have hoped that that is possible.”
2022-04-07 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #274 – Karl Deisseroth: Depression, Schizophrenia, and Psychiatry · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“How his body was seemingly moved without his volition. And these days, of course, people with schizophrenia will have more technology appropriate interpretations. They'll have delusions of satellite or alien control or beamed information very, very common to have this delusion of a government agency sending electromagnetic or a radio frequency information to control their limbs. But it's the same thing. It's whether it's a thread from an industrial revolution loom or RF radiation. It's the same thing just adapted to the moment explaining, trying to explain the world they live in and their relationship to the world.”
2022-04-07 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #274 – Karl Deisseroth: Depression, Schizophrenia, and Psychiatry · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“He sketched out for his doctor the experiences he was sensing, and he drew himself as a cowering figure on the ground controlled by a loom, a weaving device that was sending threads, long threads, projections across space from the loom to him to his arms and to his body, and controlling him from afar, and he called us the heirloom in the air, and it was such an evocative thing because this was the start of the Industrial Revolution or mid, and it was where really industrial strength looms and weaving devices were really kind of the emblematic of the most complex, powerful technological achievements of the time. And so that was the explanation available to him to explain.”
2022-04-07 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #274 – Karl Deisseroth: Depression, Schizophrenia, and Psychiatry · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“They're very attuned to complexity, and they come up with unlikely explanations, which is one of the things that makes it hard for them to function in the world is how unlikely their explanations are. But you're right, there's a depth of consideration of the complexity of the world and a concern about it. And an impulse to work to understand it that is actually quite refreshing. But the first case in the medical literature, classical schizophrenia, there was a patient named James Tilly Matthews”
2022-04-07 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #274 – Karl Deisseroth: Depression, Schizophrenia, and Psychiatry · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Inside there, yeah. And so it could be conceptualized as a communication within the brain problem, notifying what another part of the brain, what's going on. And there's some evidence consistent with that.”
2022-04-07 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #274 – Karl Deisseroth: Depression, Schizophrenia, and Psychiatry · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Within the brain, one part of the brain is not able to tell other parts of the brain what it's doing, and so the auditory hallucinations are very interesting in this regard. They often have this conversational inner monologue like quality as we're walking along the street. We may have an inner monologue thoughts about what's going on. If we see somebody we don't like, we may have a thought out where somebody would punch that guy, something like that, or maybe I should punch that guy. But these are so far below where we would ever, you know, act or even think of acting, but they're just things that come up. And people with schizophrenia. Those inner thoughts, that inner monologue is not recognized as the inner monologue of the self, and so it's perceived as something coming from the outside or from inside but from another ent”
2022-04-07 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #274 – Karl Deisseroth: Depression, Schizophrenia, and Psychiatry · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“So, some people that works. But we don't really know how. So medications, antipsychotic medications, we call them, they block a particular neurotransmitter receptor called the serotonin 2A receptor. And they modulate dopamine as well and other neurotransmitters. These can take someone who's actively hallucinating, actively paranoid, put them back in a completely normal state, and some people Stay that way indefinitely. And so you can bring people back from the other side, have it stitched together. More typically, You'll end up in some intermediate state where there's symptoms are reduced powerfully, but there might be still something there and you've got a drop down in functioning that may be persistent for a while. Concepts, what physically is going on? One idea is that. It's communication.”
2022-04-07 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #274 – Karl Deisseroth: Depression, Schizophrenia, and Psychiatry · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“It can be treated. There are medications that help, fortunately, they have side effects, so they're not perfect. You can have movement problems and actually a whole host of different side effects that come from the medications. But we can help people now with schizophrenia very, very significantly. But the amazing thing, and this is emblematic of where psychiatry stands, we don't have the deep understanding, just like with depression. We don't have that heart as a pump level of understanding that we'd like to have with schizophrenia, despite it being so biological, so genetic in its nature.”
2022-04-07 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #274 – Karl Deisseroth: Depression, Schizophrenia, and Psychiatry · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Just progresses and progresses. The voices become overwhelming, the delusions and paranoia extend and expand. The thought, the negative symptoms particularly become more and more severe. So one can't even maintain thoughts in any sort of ordered fashion. And then eventually can be fatal, can lead to suicide, it can lead to erratic behavior that leads to accidents.”
2022-04-07 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #274 – Karl Deisseroth: Depression, Schizophrenia, and Psychiatry · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“This progressive quality to it untreated, so it's very interesting. There's a break that happens. We call it first break when someone experiences their first. Disruption of reality, they can have a completely typical life up until that point. So you might have a, and I've seen just heartbreaking cases like this in the Stanford emergency room where a kid who's come there who's been extremely High functioning in that sense of academic achievement and athletic and interpersonal and then comes to college usually in men it's it's around eighteen nineteen when the first break happens Some terrifying paranoia hits or some auditory hallucinations start. They're getting screamed at by a voice in their head. So devastating. With women comes on also often a little later, sometimes in the twenties. Can be progressive if it's not treated.”
2022-04-07 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #274 – Karl Deisseroth: Depression, Schizophrenia, and Psychiatry · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Thought disorder, inability to work with complex patterns of planning or thinking, so you can't make plans, you'd have poor working memory, you can't keep track of where you were in a conversation, in a sequence of actions. So poor. An impaired working with the thoughts of oneself and then these positive symptoms of break from reality. Okay, now why do these come together? What's the neurobiology of it? Again, we don't know schizophrenia extremely genetically determined. If you look at the numbers, could be upwards of 80% genetically determined. 1% of the human population around the world, it's universal, it's not confined to anyone culture, not even really biased in one culture or another about 1% around the world”
2022-04-07 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #274 – Karl Deisseroth: Depression, Schizophrenia, and Psychiatry · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Schizophrenia is a state where there is a break from reality. And so this can show up as we call them the positive symptoms of schizophrenia. These include hallucinations, hearing something or seeing something that's not there, usually auditory hallucinations, paranoia. People can have complex fears, delusions, which we call fixed false beliefs. People get an extremely unshakable but completely implausible idea about something, sometimes relates to themselves, sometimes to the world. These we call the positive symptoms break from reality as we know it. Then there are the negative symptoms that come with it, and these are progressive, these are flattening of emotion, as we call it. So starting to express less and less, positive emotion, ending more in a neutral or flat state.”
2022-04-07 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #274 – Karl Deisseroth: Depression, Schizophrenia, and Psychiatry · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I'm 100% on board with that. And I don't think people who are Happy and who have people in their lives who are happy with them. These are I think let the weirdness flourish. Let all the different ways members of the human family can be different. Let's see them all. That's one of the joys of being alive is seeing all the ways we can be human. And I think about it all the time We have all these ways of being human? And even within one individual, you go through phases of life where you express different sides of your way of being, which is also a pretty fun opportunity, right? You can go through phases where you're in one mode and phases when you're in another mode. And let that flourish too. Let the ways that you can be you vary as well. I think that's important for people to explore.”
2022-04-07 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #274 – Karl Deisseroth: Depression, Schizophrenia, and Psychiatry · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Successful socially and occupationally. Don't say that there's a disorder. But then you're right, the concept of the spectrum does become a useful pigeonholing device, which is maybe not the best thing.”
2022-04-07 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #274 – Karl Deisseroth: Depression, Schizophrenia, and Psychiatry · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“But the spectrum is an interesting concept because that is, you know, when I say, when I refer to the spectrum, I'm actually referring to it's a precise clinical term, but you're right, it's been co-opted more broadly, and it is widely used, and it can be an unfair categorization of someone who's socially and occupationally very healthy. Critical We don't define a disorder unless there's social or occupational dysfunction. It doesn't matter what the symptoms are. I've had patients who are pleasantly hallucinating, so frankly psychotic, but doesn't affect their lives. So I don't give that person a diagnosis because there's not social or occupational dysfunction. Same with anything on this, any of the diverse symptoms of autism spectrum disorder. If someone has them”
2022-04-07 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #274 – Karl Deisseroth: Depression, Schizophrenia, and Psychiatry · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Anxiety provoking because they don't know what to say. They don't have any clue how anybody else knows what to say. They're constantly worried they're going to say something that's completely inappropriate. And so they're very anxious. And I can treat their anxiety. It doesn't touch the autism per se, but I can help them with their anxiety.”
2022-04-07 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #274 – Karl Deisseroth: Depression, Schizophrenia, and Psychiatry · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Train them to deal with these things that otherwise would be aversive to them, teach them how to predict things and interact. And that has a big effect. But it's behavioral therapy. There's no medicine that works. There are ways of reducing individual symptoms, though, that sometimes come along with autism, and those do respond to medications. So you can, you know, one thing very often my patients with autism are very anxious because they live in a world that they have a really hard time predicting what's going to happen. And so they find, and some of these are high functioning, you know, Silicon Valley types who great livings, but they're very unhappy because they're on the spectrum. Don't understand how social interactions really work. They're very”
2022-04-07 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #274 – Karl Deisseroth: Depression, Schizophrenia, and Psychiatry · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“So right now, there's no real medical treatment. There are behavioral treatments that are most effective early in life. They make sure people don't fall too far behind. If you're not interacting socially, you create this vicious cycle where you fall farther and farther behind because you're not interacting. And these therapies which are applied early in life, therapists work with the kids and”
2022-04-07 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #274 – Karl Deisseroth: Depression, Schizophrenia, and Psychiatry · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“State you should be in. Here's how you could switch between them. Here's the kind of cells that you would predict almost like predicting the Higgs boson. Here's the kind of circuitry that I would predict should govern the switching or might make one state too sticky, too hard to get out of. That is a huge opportunity for an interaction from the theoretical and experimental side together.”
2022-04-07 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #274 – Karl Deisseroth: Depression, Schizophrenia, and Psychiatry · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“I do think both brain states can't coexist at the same time. The way of dealing with something unpredictable and dealing with something predictable, those are different ways of being, here's a huge opportunity for Very creative model building in theoretical neuroscience and linking that to these data streams we're getting across the brain that we talked about earlier, these immense data sets of activity across the brain. Here's where I think there could be a real convergence of theoreticians and experimentalists to say, okay, given what we know about wiring of the brain, Here is what Brain state is likely to be that deals well with unpredictable information. And here's the brain state that deals with predictable information. Here's why they're incompatible at least at the same time. Here's why you've got to be able to detect”
2022-04-07 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #274 – Karl Deisseroth: Depression, Schizophrenia, and Psychiatry · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Well, that's a beautiful description. It's amazing that that is how you experience the eye contact aspect. I think that's, I mean, you've articulated what captures it for so many people, which is that it's overwhelming. There's just too much information just coming in through the eyes. Keep up with it to know you're going to be expected to keep up with it, first of all. So there's that aspect. You know, you've learned socially that there's going to be an expectation if you're making eye contact. People are going to think you're keeping up with it and you don't want to because you want to focus on other things and make progress and other dimensions. Yeah. And so then there's a strong desire to look away or to close the eyes because. It's overwhelming. It's a distraction, and it's going to cause errors of understanding.”
2022-04-07 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #274 – Karl Deisseroth: Depression, Schizophrenia, and Psychiatry · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Critically, your use of the word often there is really, I think, smart because it's not just social interaction that is a challenge in autism. And so many people conceptualize it purely as a social dysfunction disorder. But it's really any unpredictable information that's a problem, that's a challenge for people on the spectrum. They react very negatively to unexpected sounds, even if not social sounds, unexpected lights, unexpected touches. And so it's really unpredictable information that is, in my view, the core problem with the processing and autism, not just social. Social just shows up because it's so unpredictable.”
2022-04-07 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #274 – Karl Deisseroth: Depression, Schizophrenia, and Psychiatry · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Grace to work with the system to look at it from different angles, to take different perspectives with a confidence that it's not changing in between perspectives. That's a brain state that's valuable. It's something that is probably... Contributed to a lot of the success of the human family being able to design something, being able to consider All the different contributions to a static predictable system.”
2022-04-07 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #274 – Karl Deisseroth: Depression, Schizophrenia, and Psychiatry · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“On the flip side, there are brain states that maybe don't have to work so fast that are extremely important still, dealing with something that's not moving or that's predictable, still complex, like mathematical proof or a very complex arrangement of geometrical shapes, a large number of individual non-moving things. There's a possibly a way of being that's particularly good at dealing with these static unmoving or predictable situations and less so with these rapidly changing social situations. And so the way I conceptualize autism These are people whose brains are not so good with the high bit rate, unpredictable information, but may be quite good at given enough time given the”
2022-04-07 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #274 – Karl Deisseroth: Depression, Schizophrenia, and Psychiatry · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Model of the other person and of the interaction and their model of you, your model of them, with each word that changes, with each new bit of information that comes in through the conversation, each bit of body language, all this is rapidly changing, and some people are able to keep up with that fire hose information perfectly well. That's a special brain state to be in. That's working with unpredictability. The only way that can be done is most likely by constantly Running models of what the other person might be about to say so you can't stop and think, oh, what did that word mean? What did that shift in eye contact mean? You know, what did they mean together? There has to be some advanced work going on where you're predicting what's going on if you were to keep up with a rich and fast social interaction.”
2022-04-07 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #274 – Karl Deisseroth: Depression, Schizophrenia, and Psychiatry · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“And the reason for that is kind of interesting to think about. Is there something good about it? Just like, or at least with at least part of the spectrum, is there something good about it, just as we were talking about for depression, as you could say for mania, as you could say for schizophrenia? And here it's kind of interesting to think about the underlying science of what it means to be good at a social interaction. Someone who's very good at a social interaction is incredibly good at dealing with unpredictable information, is able to handle this torrent of information coming through, rapidly changing.”
2022-04-07 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #274 – Karl Deisseroth: Depression, Schizophrenia, and Psychiatry · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“And then as he progressed further along the spectrum, that gets more and more severe. So they can't make eye contact because it's too overwhelming to think about what has to be done next if a person looks in a particular way. Then, as you go farther, and social communication themselves break down so there's no reciprocity, there's no shared enjoyment, and that this gets very hard then as you get to this far end of the spectrum where there's really an absence of social cognition at all and social bonding. So why does this exist? What is it? It's very genetic. As I mentioned, it's one of the top three or four most biological in the sense of most genetically determined of the psychiatric illnesses. It does have these interesting positive correlations, slight positive correlations with intelligence and education.”
2022-04-07 · Lex Fridman Podcast · #274 – Karl Deisseroth: Depression, Schizophrenia, and Psychiatry · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source