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Nesrine Changuel

lines on the record: 84
first: 2025-09-28
most recent: 2025-09-28
sittings or episodes: 1
sources: podcast

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“It depends on the area but for some product it could be security, for other it might be like I want to feel a better version of myself like for example when I spoke with some leaders from Muro, they might consider this as an emotional need like they are using the product of course for the functionality that is allowing them to achieve but also to showcase that they are better facilitated or they are a better leader or just feel a better version of themselves. This could be a potential emotional motivator so it can range depending on the type of the product or the industry but actually emotions could be like a we can use for example the will of emotion as a basis where we can select from it but not all emotion could apply to all type of products it has to be specific”
2025-09-28 · Lenny's Podcast · A 4-step framework for building delightful products | Nesrine Changuel (Spotify, Google, Skype) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Think about your model It was supposed to be delightful. The problem is that this feature had the worst press ever in France. People really started to complain about it because, yes, the intention was positive. Yes, it was joyful for some people, but not everyone has the luxury of enjoying such notification. For some, it means joy. For others, it means grief or sorrow or whatever. So it was not inclusive enough. So that's why I'm highlighting the inclusion part for delight because it might be undertaken sometime.”
2025-09-28 · Lenny's Podcast · A 4-step framework for building delightful products | Nesrine Changuel (Spotify, Google, Skype) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“What makes you happy, right? I mean, even myself, I might be happy with something that he's not necessarily what's going to make me happy tomorrow. So inclusion is really important when we talk about the light because we've seen a lot of example where it's done wrong. And I can share some example here as well. So the example that come to my mind is actually something that happened last year here in Paris or in France in general. It was Delivero, you know, this company that deliver and actually it was Mother's Day. And on Mother's Day, they came up with the idea of sending notification to deliver all users. And the notification look exactly as a missed call from your mom. I mean, if you look at it from the screen, it says like missed call from your mom, you click on it, you get like, hey, it's Mother's Day.”
2025-09-28 · Lenny's Podcast · A 4-step framework for building delightful products | Nesrine Changuel (Spotify, Google, Skype) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Delightful and categorize them here. The fourth step, which is the last step of the model, is validating, because how can we make sure that we are not just creating only surface delight or we are just doing it in the wrong way. So I created something that I call the light checklist. It's actually just a checklist that anyone can go through to make sure that the feature that we're blending is making user impact, is making business impact because like the light is not an excuse to just add aesthetic and fun part in the product. It really has to be aligned with the business. But also there are other couple of things like feasibility familiarity. A very important part for me is inclusion. Like inclusion really has to be taken into consideration here because when we talk about emotion, what makes me happy is not necessarily”
2025-09-28 · Lenny's Podcast · A 4-step framework for building delightful products | Nesrine Changuel (Spotify, Google, Skype) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Balloon, I don't know if you experienced that, like it's saying happy birthday in the screen. I mean, why not? This is all about creating this emotional connection on the emotional level only. The second type of delight is what I call low delight. It's when the feature is only solving for one of those functional motivators. And of course, the third type, which is the most powerful for me, is the deep delight. Actually, this happens when you have a feature where you are at the same time solving for a functional need and also solving for an emotional need. For example, in the case of Spotify, discover weekly or Spotify Jam could be a good example of deep delight where we actually can, of course, learn or get inspired with the new music, but in a personalized way so it allows us to feel heard and seen and understood by the app. And that's the third step, which is about identifying solutions and make sure that they are”
2025-09-28 · Lenny's Podcast · A 4-step framework for building delightful products | Nesrine Changuel (Spotify, Google, Skype) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“With the light grid. So the light grade is a matrix where we place functional motivators and emotional motivators and then you will select among all the identified solutions and you place them in the grade based on what motivators is the solution solving for. I mean is it solving for one particular functional motivator? Is it solving for one particular emotional motivator or both? Why are we doing this? Because we are categorizing features into three types. There's the surface delight when a feature is only solving for an emotional motivator. I mean think about rapt. We use wrapped a couple of times here but rapt has nothing functional into it. It's all about allowing people to feel cool and share that with their friends. That surface delight. Another example of surface delight the other day I was using my Apple Watch and it was my birthday so on my birthday I had these”
2025-09-28 · Lenny's Podcast · A 4-step framework for building delightful products | Nesrine Changuel (Spotify, Google, Skype) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Have the basis. I mean, the hardest job is to identify these motivators, and then you can identify product opportunities related to that. And by the way, we see the shift that we are not too much talking about product space, but rather opportunity space because solutions are not only about solving problems, but also about honoring needs and making sure that we are solving those needs. So we can use things like how might we or whatever. By the way, I'm not very religious or strict about whatever framework could be used here. It's all about starting from these motivators and define them and put them in the strategy as opportunities to be solved. So this is second step. The third step where we get to more concrete things here is to try to identify solutions, but the solve for those motivators. So remember, we actually identified functional motivators and emotional motivators, and I defined what I”
2025-09-28 · Lenny's Podcast · A 4-step framework for building delightful products | Nesrine Changuel (Spotify, Google, Skype) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“And even when we talk about emotional motivators, we have the personal emotional motivators and the social emotional motivators. The personal emotional motivators is how users want to feel while using the product. That's exactly it is. The social emotional motivators is how users want others to feel about them while using the product. I mean, think about RAPT, for example. A lot of people share their rapt because they want to share how cool they are and in order to be perceived cool and to feel connected. I mean, these are different areas of emotional connection. So these are the, this is the first step. Identifying emotional motivators also as well as functional motivators. Now the second step is to convert those motivators. I mean as soon as you have this list how can I convert these into an opportunity or product opportunity?”
2025-09-28 · Lenny's Podcast · A 4-step framework for building delightful products | Nesrine Changuel (Spotify, Google, Skype) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“So emotion motivator for the Spotify example could be when I feel less lonely or I want to change my mood. That's something that sometimes you go to Spotify without specific thing in your head to listen to, but the need is to change your mood or to feel nostalgic or something like that. I mean, these could be examples. For example, in the case of Uber, I know that they have been working heavily on allowing users to feel secure. And they build a lot of features for security reasons.”
2025-09-28 · Lenny's Podcast · A 4-step framework for building delightful products | Nesrine Changuel (Spotify, Google, Skype) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Or there are people who use Spotify because they want to get inspired and others will listen to Spotify because they want to feel less lonely or they want to feel productive or they want to feel connected. I mean, these are motivators. And the very first step of the model is to make sure that we have a list of what we call a functional motivators and the emotional motivators. I'm pretty sure like most of the listeners are familiar with the functional motivators, but the emotional motivators is an extremely important part of the process because we're going to use it later. That's the first step.”
2025-09-28 · Lenny's Podcast · A 4-step framework for building delightful products | Nesrine Changuel (Spotify, Google, Skype) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Yes, so the thing that we did not really spoke about is the fact that over my product career, I've been like a regular PM, but during my time at Google, I've been the delight PM. So there is even an entire product team who actually work on making sure that the product is delightful. I mean, we do have such a thing for Chrome, we have that for Google Meet. I mean, that's a real thing. And of course, I understand that not every company could allow themselves having the luxury of having a delight PM. So that's why I came with this concept of how can I make this actionable? And I created the delight model. It's very simple. And by the way, what I want to really highlight here is that you do not have to change any ways of working or any strategic steps that you're already taking in your company. So what is the delight model? It happens in four steps. So we're going to work that.”
2025-09-28 · Lenny's Podcast · A 4-step framework for building delightful products | Nesrine Changuel (Spotify, Google, Skype) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“They are clearly inactive. They are not using our product for many months. So we decided to send them an email and say, hey, we noticed that you're not using our product. Are we going to refund you? Meaning that we're going to lose money, yes, but it's about trust and integrity. So this is a B2B space. This is about creating trust. This is about creating this connection. And the reaction is really funny because you might remind people to like resign or close your contract with a certain product, but that even creates a deeper connection that might even drive you to not cancer alone. Like, okay, you're inviting me to cancel, but thanks so much for your honesty. So I'm going to rename. I mean, this kind of thing, build trust over time and build emotional connection over time. So it might not, as you said, like create a big impact on metrics, but over time as your...”
2025-09-28 · Lenny's Podcast · A 4-step framework for building delightful products | Nesrine Changuel (Spotify, Google, Skype) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Honestly, maybe the product will work. And of course, it has to work. But the problem is that if you do not integrate that part into the way how you're building the solution, you're probably just building a product, but not the product that we stand out. I mean, if there is another competitor who's addressing the emotional needs, then the other product will win. I mean, that's how the market is today. So of course you will make a product that works, but do you want it to just work or do you want it to stand out? And by the way, since we're talking about this B2B and B2C space just a couple of days ago, I was pinging it in a post, link it in post that I really loved. So I'm sharing it here. Actually, it was from product leader from Buffer. And actually he said something really interesting. He actually said that we realized that about 2% of our users who are not using buffer.”
2025-09-28 · Lenny's Podcast · A 4-step framework for building delightful products | Nesrine Changuel (Spotify, Google, Skype) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Ready at that time. So they added recommendation into their robot to get closer to what a real human space could happen. So that's the concept of humanization. It's all about making sure that your product, or it's actually about reminding users that there are real human behind the product, that we want to achieve that.”
2025-09-28 · Lenny's Podcast · A 4-step framework for building delightful products | Nesrine Changuel (Spotify, Google, Skype) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Exactly. I mean, that's the bar that we are setting ourselves. Like comparing Google Meet to how this experience of meeting could be better if we were all having this conversation in a row. Because if you get this as a goal, you set a higher bar of expectation and you start to think in a human way. And by the way, there is another example that really stick to me, which when I was preparing for this project, I spoke with a head of product from Dizon. And he said a very similar thing. Actually, when I spoke with Andy, he said, we don't compare our Dizon vacuum cleaner to other vacuum cleaner. We compare them to what if I hire a real person and how would that real person would be better than the robot that we are building? Actually, if you hire a certain person to clean your house, you probably tell that person to start with a certain room or to clean in a certain way, which the robot was not.”
2025-09-28 · Lenny's Podcast · A 4-step framework for building delightful products | Nesrine Changuel (Spotify, Google, Skype) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Find what I call humanization as a type of the lighter. I mean, I listed a couple of the lighters and humanization is one of them. And I even said it's my favorite. It's about asking the following question. If my product was a human, how would the experience would be better? Just think about it that way. So for example, when I work for Google Meet and I actually join Google Meet right when pandemic happened like 2020 and we had of course to work on those challenges of like how people are taking these new ways of working from home. So instead of comparing Google Meet to Zoom or Teams or whatever other video conferencing tool, do you know that we compare Google Meet to? That's the best, do you think?”
2025-09-28 · Lenny's Podcast · A 4-step framework for building delightful products | Nesrine Changuel (Spotify, Google, Skype) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“And what I realized, which is probably not a surprise, is that they do value emotional connection in a way or another. I mean, it's not something new. They just do it in a different way. So, for example, for Dropbox, they do have a product principle called Cupcake for Snowflake. They have something called Superhero. I mean, the names could vary, but the meaning is exactly the same. I mean, it's all about bringing joy to the customers. So I came up with this concept of B2H, which is business to human. For me, it's really important to take into consideration human emotion while bending the product, whether in a B2B space or a B2C space. And by the way, exactly as you said, like, since people are so much exposed to B2C examples, I mean, the expectations are getting higher. And we are expecting also from B2B products to become more human and to feel more human. So actually when I wrote this book, I”
2025-09-28 · Lenny's Podcast · A 4-step framework for building delightful products | Nesrine Changuel (Spotify, Google, Skype) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Yeah, thanks for bringing this B2B versus B2C thing because it comes a lot and every time I talk about the light people might connect that to the B2C world. And honestly for me, like as long as there are humans using the product at the end of the day, then they need their emotion to be honored. So for example, when I actually started this project of the light, I realized that most of my career has been mostly closed to the B2C work. Yes, like I've been working for Skype, Spotify, Google Me, Google Chrome. So I quickly realized that I needed to interview people from the B2B space so that I get the sense of what's the light in their space. So I interviewed people from GitHub or at last year.”
2025-09-28 · Lenny's Podcast · A 4-step framework for building delightful products | Nesrine Changuel (Spotify, Google, Skype) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Recess, whether you want to, you can remain a super host or not. But you know what happened like every three months if you're renewed as a super host and when you open the app, the app turns into confetti, like just to celebrate that moment with you. And that kind of moment is like, why not? Because I feel like Airbnb is recognizing my effort and celebrating that small moment with me. It's about making sure you understand the value of your users and making sure that you're providing a solution that just brings them joy and surprise.”
2025-09-28 · Lenny's Podcast · A 4-step framework for building delightful products | Nesrine Changuel (Spotify, Google, Skype) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“The other day I was giving a workshop, and someone showed me, like, hey, if you shake the phone, you have Snowflake falling. Yes, yeah, I mean, why not? But that's not the light I talk about. It has to come with the value. It has to come with a concrete reason. And I call this like the confitti effect. Like people think about confetti as a way of delighting their users, but if it doesn't bring any value, then don't do it. And by the way, I'm not here to say don't do confetti. I mean, why not? Confetti could come with value and could bring some joy. And the best example is on Airbnb, maybe the one that you're most familiar with. I'm an Airbnb user, both as a host, but also as a guest. And as a host, I have a goal, which is to make sure that I always keep my super host batch. I love Bat and of course it allows me to provide the best experience for my guests. And you know how it works. Like every three months.”
2025-09-28 · Lenny's Podcast · A 4-step framework for building delightful products | Nesrine Changuel (Spotify, Google, Skype) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Edge suggested him for a complete bottle feature a coupe one, like he was about to pay something like 120 euro and suddenly you get 15% discount because Edge found out that there is a coupon you can apply and you just get 15% discount. That's for me exceeding expectation because I was not even asking for coupon. I was about to pay the 120 or anyway. That also by itself created a kind of surprise. So these are the three pillars. We need to play with them. We don't have to do them all at the same time. But every time we bring the product, we need to think about how can we reduce friction, how can we anticipate our user's need, and how can we create that exceed expectation part of the product. And I really wanted to make this clear because sometimes people think about the light as the confetti or”
2025-09-28 · Lenny's Podcast · A 4-step framework for building delightful products | Nesrine Changuel (Spotify, Google, Skype) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“He said something very similar. He said, in order for a product to be loved, you need to set the bar higher than your users and stuff. Like that's about exceeding expectation. And now we're getting to the third pillar, which is exceeding expectation. So once you anticipated their need, it's really important to exceed expectation, which means that, okay, how can I surprise them by giving them more than they ask? And here again, I have an example maybe that everyone is familiar with. I mean, I use Chrome, I love Chrome, but my husband is a Microsoft corporate user, like heavy Microsoft user, and he uses like Edge all the time. I mean, the other day, I've seen him doing something that really surprised me. Like he was about to buy a coffee machine and he went through the entire journey. He put the coffee machine on like for payment. He was about to pay. And suddenly actually...”
2025-09-28 · Lenny's Podcast · A 4-step framework for building delightful products | Nesrine Changuel (Spotify, Google, Skype) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“So, what are the choices? Like, either you have to buy a local ECM or you need to accept these fees, which are very high. And that was the moment where I looked at my husband. He opened his Rivolute app, he went to a tab called ESIM, buy ESIM seven euro is done. It's like, how the hell did Revolute thought about putting an ESIM for a bank app? I mean, it's really insane, but then when you think about it, like most of Revolute users are international or expads, so they travel a lot, and in that case they anticipated the need that people will travel and they will probably need at certain destination that kind of feature. So that's the anticipating neat part, creating surprise by giving them something before even people ask you for. And by the way, Rahul Wor, I mean the CEO of Superhuman who've been on the show, by the way, and I love his show.”
2025-09-28 · Lenny's Podcast · A 4-step framework for building delightful products | Nesrine Changuel (Spotify, Google, Skype) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“So the second pillar is about anticipating needs, meaning that, remember, in the light you have surprise. And if you have to wait for your users to tell you exactly what they need from you, then you are just honoring their need. You're not exceeding or you're not even anticipating what they are already, you want to offer them. So another example probably is actually my husband for many, many years is trying to convince me to move to Revolute, you know, Revolute app that... banking app and honestly I was comfortable enough with my traditional banking app and I didn't want to add more check and etc so I did resist not getting into the temptation of trying but that was until one specific moment actually a couple of months ago we went on”
2025-09-28 · Lenny's Podcast · A 4-step framework for building delightful products | Nesrine Changuel (Spotify, Google, Skype) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Charge it for the trip that I didn't took, and I was so angry when I realized that on my app. So I was psychologically prepared that I need to write an entire essay about what happened and how I want and I need to be refunded. But what happens is that when I get to the app, there have been only two clicks to get refunded, like select the trip you want to be a refunded and bingo, your money is back. Wow. Like, you know, I mean, I've been into these moments where the emotion was supposed to be low and suddenly the solution that they provided is something that completely removed the stress and the friction. And of course, now I can take more trips without the stress that might come out of that. So that's removing friction.”
2025-09-28 · Lenny's Podcast · A 4-step framework for building delightful products | Nesrine Changuel (Spotify, Google, Skype) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Bottom, and maybe the user is experiencing some anxiety, some stress, and how can we leverage the experience so we can reduce this valet moment? The best example I could share with you is actually something that did happen to me recently. I was actually about to take a train from Paris to London, so I booked an Uber and Uber assigned me a driver. I was waiting for the driver and suddenly the driver counseled for no specific reason. And I was so stressed. I really had to catch my train. I was like late already. So I jumped into the first taxi that just passed in front of my building. And I forgot about my Uber application. What happened is that actually when your driver cancel, Uber do their best in order to assign you a new driver, of course. And I didn't pay attention to that so the driver came to my place. He waited for me and then I ended up being charged for the waiting time.”
2025-09-28 · Lenny's Podcast · A 4-step framework for building delightful products | Nesrine Changuel (Spotify, Google, Skype) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Just try to feel it now. Like, imagine yourself in a moment or a situation where you are experiencing at the same time joy and surprise in that case you are delighted. So that's the theory behind the light. Now, let's go to the practical side. The practical side, how can we put the light into practice? How can we build products where we can achieve this delight go? And in order to do that, we need to satisfy three main pillars. The very first one is like removing friction. The second one is anticipating need. And the third one is exceeding expectation. I'm going to explain this one by one maybe through examples so that people can get exactly what I talk about. So the first one I said by removing friction is really important when you're building product to identify what we call this valet moment. These moments where the emotion is at the”
2025-09-28 · Lenny's Podcast · A 4-step framework for building delightful products | Nesrine Changuel (Spotify, Google, Skype) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“But also an actionable way to put that into practice. And in order to get even deeper into the definition, I want to highlight that there are two definitions for delight. I promise I'm not going to spend too much time on the theory, but the first definition is the theoretic definition. So the light is an emotion and there is a professor called Professor Pruchik who actually created what we call the wheel of emotion. And he actually conceptualized the light as a combination of two emotions. Could you guess what are these two emotions?”
2025-09-28 · Lenny's Podcast · A 4-step framework for building delightful products | Nesrine Changuel (Spotify, Google, Skype) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Adds that the reality is that, and even before I start writing the book, I realized that it's not that much spoken about in business and in products. I mean, that by itself creates a gap because you have designers talking about emotion marketers, talking about emotion, and then in the middle business are like, what are you talking about? We need to ship creatures. We need to shoot functionality. So we cannot achieve that so much needed goal. So in product, I call it delight. You might ask why delight because every time I talk to a founder or CPU or any product leader, they all start by saying we need to delight our users. I mean, this sentence by itself is very much repeated. The truth is that they don't know how to delight. I mean, we agree that we should delight, but we don't necessarily know how to delight. So I started from this concept and I tried to come up with a concrete, of course, framework.”
2025-09-28 · Lenny's Podcast · A 4-step framework for building delightful products | Nesrine Changuel (Spotify, Google, Skype) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“So when we create products, it's really important that the solution that we are building is solving for both needs. And I really highlight the fact that there are functional needs, like for example you want to book a flight, you want to listen to music. And it should also solve for the emotional needs, which could be, I want to feel less lonely, I want to feel comfort, I want to feel secure. And the bugs product are those that create and craft solutions that blend the two. So if you can blend the two dimensions like the functional side and the emotional side, whether the same solutions, then you are creating what we call emotional connection. And by the way, emotional connection is not a new topic. I mean, you probably heard that very much in the design area and the marketing area as well. I mean, you agree with me, the best design is the emotional design, the best marketing is the marketing, like an emotional marketing. I mean, we see the best ads coming from those emotional.”
2025-09-28 · Lenny's Podcast · A 4-step framework for building delightful products | Nesrine Changuel (Spotify, Google, Skype) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Getting tractions and growth and the success that is hoped for if they do not allow users to feel certain emotions. So let's take Spotify, for example. Users do have plenty of options to stream music, but features like rapped or mood-based recommendation or Discover Weekly allow users to be seen and heard and even connected. So that's why the light is not about sprinkling joy on top of your utility. It's about creating an experience where emotion is completely on the heart of the experience. So let's be clear. The light is not a luxury nowadays and more nowadays because the market is so crowded, it's even a differentiator. It's a strategy that we can adopt in order to grow our business, gain in loyalty, in word of mouth, in growth and even Reven”
2025-09-28 · Lenny's Podcast · A 4-step framework for building delightful products | Nesrine Changuel (Spotify, Google, Skype) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Time I talk about the light, whether in a conference or a workshop, I always start with this very simple question. What is your favorite product? I mean, what I love about it is the range and the variety of answers I usually get. Like some people would choose products for the productivity it gets and others may choose product because they feel joy or comfort with it without even knowing how to explain that. And that's even more exciting because we connect with products at different levels. We might connect with product for the functionality part or we might connect with product because it fulfills a certain emotional link that we were not even aware of. And so the best product deeply emotionally connect with users and that's the essence of the light. So the light is actually this ability to create products that serve for both emotional need and functional need. And the hard truth is that even functioning product very well functioning product may tend or still experience some trouble or issue.”
2025-09-28 · Lenny's Podcast · A 4-step framework for building delightful products | Nesrine Changuel (Spotify, Google, Skype) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“How can we build products where we can achieve the life goal recently? I booked an Uber. I was waiting for the driver and suddenly the driver canceled for no specific reason. But what happens is that when I get to the app, there have been only two clicks to get refunded. Bingo, your money is back. The emotion was supposed to be low. And suddenly the solution completely removed distress and the friction.”
2025-09-28 · Lenny's Podcast · A 4-step framework for building delightful products | Nesrine Changuel (Spotify, Google, Skype) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source
“Sometimes people think about the light as the confetti. If you shake the phone, you have snowflake falling, but that's not the light I talk about. The light is actually this ability to create products that serve for both emotional need and functional need.”
2025-09-28 · Lenny's Podcast · A 4-step framework for building delightful products | Nesrine Changuel (Spotify, Google, Skype) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source