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Petra Wille

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2022-11-27
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2022-11-27
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  1. “Yeah, I totally agree. The book talks about some more aspects, actually. That's more or less the first two parts of the book. And then there is more onboarding and hiring great product people. There is a lot more. So that's actually the biggest part about how to coach certain concepts of today's product management industry, so to say, hypothesis-driven product development, for example. How do you explain these concepts to people that are not yet familiar with these things? And really, it helps product leads to reflect, okay, what are the small things that I could help them to get better at certain things? Because that's actually where a lot of the magic happens. We tend to read all the books and we tend to know all our thought leaders and all these kind of things. But our product people often need super practical advice. So maybe it's really something like explaining them. The Eisenhower Maastrichts for Getting Peter Time Management.”

    2022-11-27 · Lenny's Podcast · How to be the best coach to product people | Petra Wille (Strong Product People) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  2. “Yeah, it was actually that would have been pretty cool. It was more the personal need of me starting off as a product coach. And I had this sense of I need this compass. Because how should you start a coaching conversation? I first have to learn about what is their perception about them and their capabilities in their how. And then I can help them work on some of the things they want to work on. But it is often that coaches come totally unprepared to the coaching, especially when the company is actually paying it for them and to some extent forcing them into the coaching. And then they're just like, okay, they told me to show up. Petra, what should we do in these sessions? And then that's why I created a PM wheel to have this first conversations about where they think we should invest more time in our coaching session. So that's how I created it.”

    2022-11-27 · Lenny's Podcast · How to be the best coach to product people | Petra Wille (Strong Product People) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  3. “Is this person good and doing that? And that hopefully gives you a really nice and well-rounded picture of where this person currently is. And I usually advise people to do a self-assessment, then ask their line management for an assessment. And ideally, some of your team members, because they have a different perspective on you as a product management personality as well.”

    2022-11-27 · Lenny's Podcast · How to be the best coach to product people | Petra Wille (Strong Product People) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  4. “Out of the PM process, which is team. So do they know about how teams actually are different from working with individuals? Do they think they have to motivate a team? Can you motivate a team? So this whole teamwork part, then it's personal growth. I put it on my PM wheel because I want that to be part of every conversation that I have with my PM. So that's why it's on the wheel. And then last but not least, it's agile. Because when I was still coaching PMs, I often found that they never reflected on the underlying basics of agile ways of working. So they often never heard about the agile manifesto or agile values or agile principles, no matter what framework they're using. But I think that is key. So that's bucket number eight. And every of those buckets comes with at least 15 framing questions. So is this person good at doing this?”

    2022-11-27 · Lenny's Podcast · How to be the best coach to product people | Petra Wille (Strong Product People) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  5. “It's hard to talk about that really briefly. So I split all the things that PMs usually do in eight buckets, so to say. And it starts with, are they able to understand the underlying problems that users and the company actually is having? Are they good in finding solutions to those problems? Then it's to do some planning parts or they're able to maybe come up with a roadmap or with good goals that are help aligning the team, these kind of things. And it's get it done that's already able to actually deliver the thing to work with the team. That's maybe writing backlog items and all these kind of things. Then it's listen and learn. So are they able to really gather a lot of data these days and then look into what customers are actually saying, so the qualitative and quantitative aftermath of stuff going live? And are they able to iterate on the solutions that they shipped? And then it's another three buckets that are”

    2022-11-27 · Lenny's Podcast · How to be the best coach to product people | Petra Wille (Strong Product People) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  6. “Environment. So for me, that, for example, is curiosity. I think product people need to be curious about the world, how it works, about things, no matter the topic, the best product people that I know, whatever the topic is, they're interested and tell me more about it. So that is, for example, something I would always check when hiring product people, because I know it's hard to build that muscle or empathy definitely something that I want to hire for. I know that I can help them develop this muscle a bit more and stepping in the shoes of users and stakeholders and colleagues easier. But still, if there is not a decent level of empathy built into this person, then it's nearly impossible for me as a product really to help them get to the decent level. So that's another important thing. Think about personality traits and think about skills and know-how and to think.”

    2022-11-27 · Lenny's Podcast · How to be the best coach to product people | Petra Wille (Strong Product People) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  7. “Or maybe you could merge one or two of those and tailor it to your needs. So that would be my first suggestion, plus reflecting on the personality traits, because I think there are some things that you better hire for.”

    2022-11-27 · Lenny's Podcast · How to be the best coach to product people | Petra Wille (Strong Product People) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  8. “I'd say use one after assessments that are already out there. Maybe we can include this as well. I wrote a blog post where I put all the ones that I'm aware of into. So there is the PM Daisy and obviously Marty Kagan has an assessment and I created a framework called the PM wheel. And there are a few others in there. I go find one that is close to what you actually think a good PM should look like and then customize it. Don't use it just by copy paste because sometimes you have just rather technical PMs in your organization and then all this assessment points about user interviews and discovery are maybe not that applicable in your situation, right? So use one template that is close to what you want to achieve, heavy customize it because it is really a great inspiration to see, oh, these are all the things that other people think a year should be.”

    2022-11-27 · Lenny's Podcast · How to be the best coach to product people | Petra Wille (Strong Product People) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  9. “Yeah, exactly. And it's really all of us know consistency beats intensity. So really the smaller time investments on a weekly basis. And that applies for the PM's time investment and learning new things. And it applies to the product leads investment and helping their people to grow. I think for both parties, it's more likely and more pleasant if you have small chunks of people development in your calendar. And that's why I like your story, right? Because you were focusing on regular check-ins more than into the big bang 360 degree reviews.”

    2022-11-27 · Lenny's Podcast · How to be the best coach to product people | Petra Wille (Strong Product People) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  10. “There is another aspect to it a lot of product leads try to create their compass and while they do so, they think about maybe I should have an aligned version with my peers. So the other product leads in the company. And then we're talking about the career levels and all these kind of things and often takes ages until something is coming back from HR or you have a unified version. So that is something where I usually say like, no, start with your own personal team because the folks in your team usually just have you as a line manager. So great your compass and encourage your peers to create their compass and a bit down the line. It might make sense to harmonize some of that. But it's better to start helping your product folks and giving them some orientation than being totally paralyzed by the fact that it's not a compass that is used in the whole company.”

    2022-11-27 · Lenny's Podcast · How to be the best coach to product people | Petra Wille (Strong Product People) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  11. “From the product lead, the small not just that's super easy. And this development plans, I usually tell people to create a new one with a new headline or topic once a quarter or every four months. So that is not a massive time invest as well. So that would be my suggestion for where to start, if that helps.”

    2022-11-27 · Lenny's Podcast · How to be the best coach to product people | Petra Wille (Strong Product People) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  12. “Ah, that is a great question. No, I usually advise people to start with the development plan. Because even if you have never done the assessment and even if you don't have your compass, your definition of what makes a good product manager, you usually have an idea or they have an idea of what they want to learn next or where they want to get better at. So as said, they say something like my storytelling capabilities are maybe not as good as they could be or privatization is people are constantly complaining behind my back that they don't get the order of the things in my backlog or whatever it is. Or they think my opportunity solution freezes suck or whatever it is. And you could use that and start helping them creating this development plan. That's not a structured assessment, but that's a perfect start. And it's obviously the follow-up that makes a big difference and that just takes so little time.”

    2022-11-27 · Lenny's Podcast · How to be the best coach to product people | Petra Wille (Strong Product People) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  13. “I think about it that way as well, even to an extent, because so many companies are lacking the real strategy bit, right? And it's similar with the people development strategy. That is something that I see not being present in so many environments as well. So even that similarity is a given, I'd say. Yeah.”

    2022-11-27 · Lenny's Podcast · How to be the best coach to product people | Petra Wille (Strong Product People) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  14. “It's the follow up that sometimes just a nudge every once in a while at the water cooler to say, like, hey, how is it going with your personal development plan? And some really neat the weekly reminder and some maybe need even a daily email, whatever it is, ask them how they want to be reminded of their personal development and how you could help them and the system while doing that because they still have a day job, right? So personal development will never be the number one priority. And it shouldn't.”

    2022-11-27 · Lenny's Podcast · How to be the best coach to product people | Petra Wille (Strong Product People) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  15. “Definitely a development plan, but I think that's more on them than it is on you because you don't get the apps from other people's crunches. So you cannot really help them develop. But you could remind them of going to the gym, for example, which would be step number five, by the way. That's the follow-up. But the development plan is something where a lot of product managers need help with because that's the inspirational part, that's the curational part. That's where you could help them to really see some of the differences between your definition of good and their current profile. And maybe they need to get better in privatization, maybe user interviewing is something they want to get better at. And then you could help them defining steps that they could take small things that they could learn. Maybe it's a book. Maybe it's giving a presentation at a conference. Maybe it's reflecting on your way of prioritizing and then look at what others are doing. So whatever it is that is something.”

    2022-11-27 · Lenny's Podcast · How to be the best coach to product people | Petra Wille (Strong Product People) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  16. “Creating such a list once a quarter, for example, you block yourself an hour in your calendar, you write down the names of your direct reports, and then you just think about, okay, what would be this next bigger challenge for them? It's not always the case that this comes around the corner the next day. Sometimes it takes a quarter or two or three. But if you wrote it down, you will see this opportunity. And then you could assign this person to the opportunity and really help them grow substantially over time. So that's number two. Then hopefully you share this vision you're having for them with them and do a bit of an alignment session because it's not always that they have the same things in mind. Maybe your vision for them opens up their thinking and reflection a bit more, but you have to have this conversation where you actually see them. And it's a lot of encouragement and bringing out the best in them and these kind of things.”

    2022-11-27 · Lenny's Podcast · How to be the best coach to product people | Petra Wille (Strong Product People) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  17. “Step number one is doing this reflection. Then step number two is having a clear idea where every PM currently is in their current career, in their situation, life in general, all these kind of things. So put the pin on the map, so to say, and then think about what is your vision for them in the future? So how good could it get? And I usually encourage product leads to think bigger than their current role and the current company because that's the longer-term thing. And then even more important is what I call the next bigger challenge. So what is the next bigger challenge? I would love to assign this product person to if I could, because I know that would help them to learn a new skill or to gain new know-how, whatever it is, right?”

    2022-11-27 · Lenny's Podcast · How to be the best coach to product people | Petra Wille (Strong Product People) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  18. “Yeah, glad you're asking. So I was already referencing to number one and number one is really having a solid definition of what a good product person looks like in your context. So what is your definition of good, so to say? And a lot of the product leads that I'm working with have this as an implicit feeling-based, experience-based thing. They can talk about some of the aspects, but it's often the case that they're not happy on what a personality traits that I want to see in product people that are hard to develop while I'm coaching them and what are skills and know-how and capabilities that I want to see in the product people that I'm working with. And some are super good and have it all written down, but most of the product folks that I'm working with haven't. So that is.”

    2022-11-27 · Lenny's Podcast · How to be the best coach to product people | Petra Wille (Strong Product People) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  19. “She'll be available on Amazon. And it's strong product people, a complete guide to developing great product managers. That's actually the title and the subtitle, so to say.”

    2022-11-27 · Lenny's Podcast · How to be the best coach to product people | Petra Wille (Strong Product People) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  20. “Quite a niche book, right? So it's focusing on people managing product people, so product leads, and then the people development part of their job. So it's not another book talking about how to come up with a great product strategy. There definitely is a chapter on that to some extent, but it's more How you coach those things. So it's not so much about how you do these things on your own, it's more how you could help product people to understand hypothesis driven product discovery a bit more. How could you help them think about team motivation or how could you help them get better in giving feedback? All these kind of things. So this book has this meta level of helping product leads to develop their product folks. And that is actually what the book talks about in five different parts and I think 28 chapters, if I get it right.”

    2022-11-27 · Lenny's Podcast · How to be the best coach to product people | Petra Wille (Strong Product People) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  21. “Yeah, I totally agree. I so often have sad descendants of it's not a role, it's a career being in product and really there's so many things to learn and so many things to get good at. Yeah, I totally agree.”

    2022-11-27 · Lenny's Podcast · How to be the best coach to product people | Petra Wille (Strong Product People) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  22. “And then I use this metaphor of the eight legged creature because people tend to talk about T shaped employee profiles, but T-shaped is so not enough for a product person, right? We want them to understand underlying problems of the business and the users, finding solutions for those, getting things out of the door with the team, doing a lot of product discovery, looking at the data, how people are using it, iterating on the products. So there's so many things that we want them to be good at and to understand that and the complexity that the role actually brings with it, that's sometimes hard for people that have never worked as a product person to really understand. So yeah, if I would need to pick two things, then that's maybe the two. Biggest differences.”

    2022-11-27 · Lenny's Podcast · How to be the best coach to product people | Petra Wille (Strong Product People) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  23. “One thing that made me sends out the most is I see product people on the IC level have to go through some of the struggles on their own, even if our product community has some best practices to it. Because as their line manager has no clue about the product community out there and the craft of product management, they often struggle to point them in the right direction to say like, hey, I think that's a problem somebody else already had. So maybe you could watch a talk or read this blog post or there's a book about this particular thing and then go try it. So that's the first thing.”

    2022-11-27 · Lenny's Podcast · How to be the best coach to product people | Petra Wille (Strong Product People) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  24. “That is the case, plus, at least with a lot of clients that I'm working with, they are not trained product people. So they often come from a marketing background or a business background or from the data background, so to say, or the engineering background, but they often never have worked in a product management role. So they are missing a lot of basic product management practice and a lot of empathy for the struggle of the product people to some extent. Plus, how should you help people grow if you have no clue what their role actually is all about? So that's what I actually like to help them with, to get this clarity on a strong compass, how the best product organizations and product managers should be working.”

    2022-11-27 · Lenny's Podcast · How to be the best coach to product people | Petra Wille (Strong Product People) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  25. “Coaching sessions in corporate and in public setups. And that's, I would say, another 150. And it's all product leads. So usually those people are working with a team of 10 product people. And there are some ripple effects. So I think I have an impact on their lives as well if they're coaching their boss or the line manager, so to say. Plus the teams that I work with as a discovery coach, plus the people that read my book and hopefully are using some of the techniques. And in the end. Yeah, I did a bit of the math and I think it might be around 50,000, 60,000 people if we look at it from the product leadership to IC level structure. That might be the impact. So that's a pretty impressive number.”

    2022-11-27 · Lenny's Podcast · How to be the best coach to product people | Petra Wille (Strong Product People) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  26. “How I usually describe it that I work with people, leading product people. So that's the product leadership level that I'm looking at so that might be a CPO and a smaller startup or a product director or product team. These are the folks that I'm usually working with for the last four years, I'd say. And before that, I coach product managers, so I see level product folks. And before of that, I did a lot of product discovery coaching for teams and whole product organizations. You were asking about how many people I may have influenced. That's a real hard question, so to say. So in one-on-one coaching, that's what I know. I coach around 130 people so far over the last few years, which is already a lot. Most of them have 10 to 20 sessions with me. Some really stick with me over the years. So they have more sessions. So that's that. And then I have groups.”

    2022-11-27 · Lenny's Podcast · How to be the best coach to product people | Petra Wille (Strong Product People) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source

  27. “Getting promoted is way harder if you're not good in telling stories and rallying the team behind the shared goal and all these kind of things. And you usually achieve this through good storytelling techniques. And in some teams, I've seen the product person not being really, really good at it, but then the whole team helped creating these stories and stuff like this. So you definitely could compensate to some extent. But I would consider it a bit of a career staller if you don't get to decent level of storytelling and to a decent level of public speaking.”

    2022-11-27 · Lenny's Podcast · How to be the best coach to product people | Petra Wille (Strong Product People) · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT · source