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Sheila Heen

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2021-09-15
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2021-09-15
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  1. “The last thing I would add to your six day experiment should you decide to accept this mission, this mini mission, would be not to have them at bedtime, but just to find a time maybe when you're each at your best in terms of energy and to treat them as like quicker check-ins earlier in the day to try to understand for each of you what's going on there. And over time, to start noticing those patterns. At the end of 60 days, if you like, we can get together and talk about feedback and we'll see how it went. Anyway, Tim, thank you so much for the conversation. I so enjoyed it and I can't wait to hear what happens next.”

    2021-09-15 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #532: Sheila Heen of The Harvard Negotiation Project — How to Navigate Hard Conversations, the Subtle Art of Apologizing, and a Powerful 60-Day Challenge · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  2. “I know it's always the wrong time for me. So often I hear the advice from long partnered people like, don't go to bed mad or don't let the sun go down on your anger is something my grandmother would have said. And that seems like good advice, except that in practice it's horrible advice because the end of the day is exactly the time, especially if we're irritated with each other. It's exactly the time when like I've been carrying around and adding to the list of my partner's flaws and problems and I'm tired. I'm irritable. I have exactly zero energy or patience to do the hard work of listening. And it is hard work to listen to someone tell you something that you've done that has upset them or to feel misunderstood and to try to properly, accurately understand each other. That's actually hard work.”

    2021-09-15 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #532: Sheila Heen of The Harvard Negotiation Project — How to Navigate Hard Conversations, the Subtle Art of Apologizing, and a Powerful 60-Day Challenge · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  3. “Your automatic response should be, ooh, yes, awesome. I can't wait. And I can't wait to hear what you have noticed. And I'll add what I noticed in that moment and maybe we'll better understand this. And that actually hopefully lowers the stakes and changes the frame to be a little bit more inclusive and also treats it a little bit more like a spot dusting, I suppose, if we're going to keep that metaphor. And at the end of 60 days, just see whether the tenor of these conversations has changed. The last thing that I will say is, of course, the timing of when you're having the conversations, as we talked about a little bit, is kind of disastrous for you. And I'm sure that when she says, can we find a time to talk, you're picking the end of the day because obviously you both have a ton of other stuff to do during the day. But I wonder whether that's exactly the wrong time.”

    2021-09-15 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #532: Sheila Heen of The Harvard Negotiation Project — How to Navigate Hard Conversations, the Subtle Art of Apologizing, and a Powerful 60-Day Challenge · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  4. “Is happening and talk about if neither of us changes a whole lot, what could make this better? What small things might be able to make this better? And so you might do a 60-day experiment that when she comes and says, hey, can we find a time to talk?”

    2021-09-15 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #532: Sheila Heen of The Harvard Negotiation Project — How to Navigate Hard Conversations, the Subtle Art of Apologizing, and a Powerful 60-Day Challenge · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  5. “Actually, the frame of the conversation should be hey, I noticed something today that I want to talk about that's one of those places where we have some rub or some friction. And I want to tell you about it. And can we expand it to say, oh, great, and I'm really interested, and then I would love to, you know, share what was going on with me in that moment. So the purpose of our conversation isn't just hearing you out so that you can speak up and not people please, which is, I totally support. I love that about how you support that with her. But also, and then I'll add like what was going on for me. And we can kind of figure it out together. So it's framing the purpose of the conversation as just understanding. Maybe there'll be an apology in one direction or another, but maybe it's just about, ooh, cool. This is one of those moments. Let's just unpack it a little bit and notice what.”

    2021-09-15 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #532: Sheila Heen of The Harvard Negotiation Project — How to Navigate Hard Conversations, the Subtle Art of Apologizing, and a Powerful 60-Day Challenge · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  6. “It's putting everything on the table all at once, like, leave no stone unturned. It's like you're doing spring cleaning every evening that you have this conversation rather than just a light spot dusting in the relationship. And I'm not sure you need to do a spring cleaning every evening. And so I wonder whether we can do a couple of things. One is reassure each other that that question, are we going to be okay? is answered yes we are going to be okay and we're going to figure out how to handle this to turn down the power on that conversation or the heat a second is can we expand the frame on what your conversation is about beyond just her topic because if it's just her topic then when you can't help yourself and you add your perspective it feels disruptive or off topic when i think”

    2021-09-15 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #532: Sheila Heen of The Harvard Negotiation Project — How to Navigate Hard Conversations, the Subtle Art of Apologizing, and a Powerful 60-Day Challenge · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  7. “Misstep or be an asshole? Like, is that going to be okay? And so I think that's going to raise the stakes for both of you in the conversation. And I wonder whether there's a way to turn down the heat or maybe the volume on that question, at least for a while. A second thing, and I have a thought about how to do that, but let me add a second thing that I have been thinking about that is related, which is when she comes and says, hey, can we talk? The implicit topic or purpose of that conversation is singular. It's about her topic When you ask the question, is there more, which, by the way, is a fantastic question, and it may unintentionally reinforce that the whole purpose of this conversation is about your concern or feeling hurt or impacted by me? And in addition, is there more?”

    2021-09-15 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #532: Sheila Heen of The Harvard Negotiation Project — How to Navigate Hard Conversations, the Subtle Art of Apologizing, and a Powerful 60-Day Challenge · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  8. “The task isn't to resolve them once and for all, it's to figure out a way to handle them or navigate them and manage them together that feels okay and good. And I think part of what might be happening when your girlfriend comes and says, hey, can we talk? Is she saying, I want to raise something that's happening that's actually not okay with me? And if I were in your shoes, and maybe if I was in her shoes, I would be thinking, and what does this mean for us? Is this going to work? Are we going to be able to figure out how to navigate this together? And you might be feeling like, gosh, what you're asking me to do is to be perfect. And I have already demonstrated that that is not going to happen. So if I continue to sometimes”

    2021-09-15 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #532: Sheila Heen of The Harvard Negotiation Project — How to Navigate Hard Conversations, the Subtle Art of Apologizing, and a Powerful 60-Day Challenge · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  9. “I thought I would offer a couple of thoughts I had afterwards, just in case they might be helpful to you. So the first is that one of the questions that sits underneath many, many difficult conversations is sort of the background music to the conversation or maybe a low hum, ominous hum below the surface is the question, is this going to be okay? Are we going to be okay? Is this conflict going to mean consequences or even the end of the relationship when someone raises something important to them with someone else? Part of what they're asking is, is this the kind of thing that we can talk about, talk through, and resolve together. And, you know, particularly given Gottman's research about two-thirds of our conflicts in long-term relationships are not really resolvable.”

    2021-09-15 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #532: Sheila Heen of The Harvard Negotiation Project — How to Navigate Hard Conversations, the Subtle Art of Apologizing, and a Powerful 60-Day Challenge · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  10. “Hi, Tim, it's Sheila. You know, as I thought about our conversation afterwards, of course, I thought of all the things I wish I would have asked or had insights I wish I would have thought of at the time. And, you know, that's normal. The good news and the bad news of difficult conversations is that they're usually happening in ongoing relationships over time. And so it's not so much about having exactly the perfect script or thing to say in the moment as much as it is about having an ongoing conversation. So in the spirit of an ongoing conversation,”

    2021-09-15 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #532: Sheila Heen of The Harvard Negotiation Project — How to Navigate Hard Conversations, the Subtle Art of Apologizing, and a Powerful 60-Day Challenge · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  11. “So, for everybody that, for you, Tim, just in this conversation, and also for everybody that I've had the privilege of working with over the last 30 years, it's like they let me into part of their life that really matters and the conversations that matter to them. If that's where we live together in our relationship, like I'm there. Totally there.”

    2021-09-15 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #532: Sheila Heen of The Harvard Negotiation Project — How to Navigate Hard Conversations, the Subtle Art of Apologizing, and a Powerful 60-Day Challenge · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  12. “Oh gosh, maybe just if you're having difficult conversations in your life with yourself and with the people around you. You're not alone Part of being human and being in relationships, but they also are an indicator that you care a lot about what you're doing and you care about the people you're doing it with. And so in many ways it's a sign of health. And so for me, that's been part of what's been so rewarding about this work is that you meet someone and you get to know them. Pretty well very quickly because we go straight to the edge of what they're coping with and not sure how to handle and struggling with. And for someone who's naturally pretty shy myself, I have found that such a beautiful and rewarding.”

    2021-09-15 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #532: Sheila Heen of The Harvard Negotiation Project — How to Navigate Hard Conversations, the Subtle Art of Apologizing, and a Powerful 60-Day Challenge · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  13. “I came away feeling fascinated I came away feeling fascinated with the way in which he so effectively managed those conversations for so long and the way that he cast the editor who was who started to be suspicious and ask harder questions and demand to see his notes and tell me when this happened, they cast him as the bad guy. And so it's been also helpful for me when I feel like I'm being the bad guy because I'm being too harsh or demanding or suspicious or something. Is that just the story that's being told? Are my questions and concerns justified? Because I can be very vulnerable to not wanting to be the bad guy. Yeah, and it causes me to not. To have conversations sometimes”

    2021-09-15 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #532: Sheila Heen of The Harvard Negotiation Project — How to Navigate Hard Conversations, the Subtle Art of Apologizing, and a Powerful 60-Day Challenge · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  14. “The actor, that actor, of course, I brought up a movie that now I can't remember clearly to describe. But the point of it is that he, Stephen Glass in real life, was so good at playing the victim that he had colleagues and friends stepping into cover for him when people got suspicious, who would say to the editor-in-chief, like, why are you being so mean? Why are you doubting him? Of course this is true. Why are you coming down on him so hard? He's very sensitive. And he was so good at playing the victim that he had other people enlisted as heroes who would intervene to help cover for him. And it's a fascinating and beautifully done.”

    2021-09-15 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #532: Sheila Heen of The Harvard Negotiation Project — How to Navigate Hard Conversations, the Subtle Art of Apologizing, and a Powerful 60-Day Challenge · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  15. “Can't recall forgetting because it was, and so it's a Big scandal and Hayden Christensen was he the guy who played Anakin.”

    2021-09-15 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #532: Sheila Heen of The Harvard Negotiation Project — How to Navigate Hard Conversations, the Subtle Art of Apologizing, and a Powerful 60-Day Challenge · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  16. “Oh, that's beautiful. I also find it sometimes useful, that useful if I think, how in the world do they tell this story? Can I tell their perspective? Putting them in the hero role. Because they do feel like they're the hero of their own story in most cases.”

    2021-09-15 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #532: Sheila Heen of The Harvard Negotiation Project — How to Navigate Hard Conversations, the Subtle Art of Apologizing, and a Powerful 60-Day Challenge · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  17. “For you, and that if you're going to be in a relationship with her, it actually is a big deal for you guys to figure out how to navigate. So the problem is between us. It's a shared problem of how we will figure this out. I think the challenge is that in our own conflicts. Can be so much harder to see When you're standing in that place describing to a therapist, it's really hard to see our own patterns. And that's the challenge of getting better at difficult conversations.”

    2021-09-15 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #532: Sheila Heen of The Harvard Negotiation Project — How to Navigate Hard Conversations, the Subtle Art of Apologizing, and a Powerful 60-Day Challenge · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  18. “And we each can fall into those roles and how we tell our own stories as well. If you want to get better at this, often listening to other people's stories and asking them questions about, well, what do you feel like you contributed or what do you feel you're right about and what does the other person think they're right about? The most common patterns actually we each actually might be right Just talking past each other. Your girlfriend might be right that she, well, clearly she's right, that she felt hurt or overlooked. This isn't how she would like to be whatever, talk to, et cetera. You're right that you didn't do it on purpose and that it wasn't that big a deal in the grand scheme of life.”

    2021-09-15 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #532: Sheila Heen of The Harvard Negotiation Project — How to Navigate Hard Conversations, the Subtle Art of Apologizing, and a Powerful 60-Day Challenge · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  19. “And you can also hear, oh, I hear someone playing the victim role here that in storytelling. Hero, a villain, and a victim, or set of victims”

    2021-09-15 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #532: Sheila Heen of The Harvard Negotiation Project — How to Navigate Hard Conversations, the Subtle Art of Apologizing, and a Powerful 60-Day Challenge · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  20. “Really hard. It's interesting for me because when I listen, when you are a third party, Like in this conversation, and you were describing your conversations with your girlfriend, I'm a third party listening to that. Any of us, when we're a third party listening to someone else's conflicts, it's easier to hear in it. Like, oh, I see what they each think that they're right about. I see what they're each contributing to the problem. I can hear the ways in which they each feel accused of being a bad person or having bad intentions. And they're each really wanting the other to understand the impact that this has had on them. And they're each full of frustration and hurt and confusion and anxiety and adrenaline. And maybe they're wondering, am I a good partner? Am I a good person? Am I worthy of love? Am I broken in some way that needs to be fixed? I hear the other person wanting to me to fix myself. It's not just they want to fix me. They think I should fix myself. As a third party, you can hear all of that.”

    2021-09-15 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #532: Sheila Heen of The Harvard Negotiation Project — How to Navigate Hard Conversations, the Subtle Art of Apologizing, and a Powerful 60-Day Challenge · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  21. “The back of my mind, I was thinking about the ways that these two things overlap, which I have been thinking about recently because the hero is often an absorber who says, you know, I'm going to come in and save the day and I'm a good leader who takes responsibility Now it could also be that the hero is a shifter, nothing's ever their fault because they're only a good guy. This is related to identity. So it would be interesting to hear how you think about that. The villain role, nobody wants and when people attribute negative intentions to you or you're the problem. Nobody wants to play that role in the conversation. That's why starting from the third position helps. Like this is just the difference between us. Nobody is the villain here. Nobody's the problem”

    2021-09-15 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #532: Sheila Heen of The Harvard Negotiation Project — How to Navigate Hard Conversations, the Subtle Art of Apologizing, and a Powerful 60-Day Challenge · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  22. “You see first and contribution and balances whatever you see. If you see your own part first, well, remember, it's not all you. You can't fix this by yourself. You can't be the hero and fix something by yourself. You need to think about what would other people need to change if we're really going to have change and vice versa, of course. Think this is related to those roles of hero villain victim”

    2021-09-15 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #532: Sheila Heen of The Harvard Negotiation Project — How to Navigate Hard Conversations, the Subtle Art of Apologizing, and a Powerful 60-Day Challenge · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  23. “Although she told me recently we were talking about this, and she said, I'm not really an absorber. I'm just a social absorber. I know that's what I'm supposed to say, but inside, we both know it's your fault. So absorbers and shifters often will find each other in relationships or in the workplace because it's the perfect relationship, right? We both agree it's the absorber's fault But over time, what happens is the absorber gets fed up and tired of being the one who always apologizes and tries to fix things and takes responsibility and being the bad guy. And so it's a stable system until it's not. So part of the reason that this is all important is just to reflect on your own pattern.”

    2021-09-15 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #532: Sheila Heen of The Harvard Negotiation Project — How to Navigate Hard Conversations, the Subtle Art of Apologizing, and a Powerful 60-Day Challenge · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  24. “And so it's actually very disabling. If you're an absorber, I think we're all taught to be absorbers, particularly as leaders take responsibility. The buck stops here. The problem is that if you're a true absorber in doing so often you let other people off the hook. Take responsibility for everything. My mother tends to be an absorber. Like if there's an argument at dinner, she'll think, oh, I should have served something else. Or I'm sorry. She apologizes when the weather is bad when I visit. It's like, mom, I don't think you were really responsible for the weather”

    2021-09-15 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #532: Sheila Heen of The Harvard Negotiation Project — How to Navigate Hard Conversations, the Subtle Art of Apologizing, and a Powerful 60-Day Challenge · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  25. “Yes. So if we're talking about what do we each contribute to this, I think that each of us leans in a particular direction, blame absorbers are quick to see what they have screwed up. So the first place they're going to point a fingers at themselves. Like I should have seen this coming. I should have said something earlier. I can't believe I let myself get into this situation again. And blame shifters are the opposite. They're going to see everybody else's contribution first. I'm late because the traffic was terrible because my kid wouldn't put their shoes on because Zoom wasn't working correctly, etc. So their first instinct is to point a finger away from themselves, either to the situation or to other people. And you would think, gosh, it would be great to be a shifter because nothing is ever your fault. But the experience of being a shifter is basically the experience of being victimized by the world and everybody else in it because you don't see your part.”

    2021-09-15 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #532: Sheila Heen of The Harvard Negotiation Project — How to Navigate Hard Conversations, the Subtle Art of Apologizing, and a Powerful 60-Day Challenge · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  26. “Going forward, if we want to improve that, understanding what we each contributed is the way to actually change things and improve them. So I think that looking for what am I contributing to this problem is part of what empowers me to know what I could change or try to do differently. I want a little bit of a tangent, which is background for your original question. You want to state your question.”

    2021-09-15 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #532: Sheila Heen of The Harvard Negotiation Project — How to Navigate Hard Conversations, the Subtle Art of Apologizing, and a Powerful 60-Day Challenge · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  27. “And therefore, the question is how should they be punished? And occasionally punishment is formal, like they're fired, but more often punishment is informal. Who's in the doghouse? Who has to make it up? So it's no surprise that people try to avoid being tagged with the blame. But they also avoid being tagged with the blame because in most situations, it wasn't just me. I was reacting to what you were doing. So contribution shifts to come from a really different assumption, which is that We're at right now, which is the problem, which is a problem, we each did or failed to do some things that got us here.”

    2021-09-15 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #532: Sheila Heen of The Harvard Negotiation Project — How to Navigate Hard Conversations, the Subtle Art of Apologizing, and a Powerful 60-Day Challenge · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  28. “One of our observations is that when you make the shift from blame to thinking about things in terms of contribution, it's not just that you're using a nicer word. Blame assumes that somebody did something. What they didn't measure up on some yardstick of what was appropriate, what was professional, what was expected, what a good person would do. And so they fell short in some way or did something quote unquote wrong”

    2021-09-15 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #532: Sheila Heen of The Harvard Negotiation Project — How to Navigate Hard Conversations, the Subtle Art of Apologizing, and a Powerful 60-Day Challenge · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  29. “Yeah, and it's each of us standing on one side with the problem in front of us rather than standing across from each other, pointing to each other as the problem.”

    2021-09-15 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #532: Sheila Heen of The Harvard Negotiation Project — How to Navigate Hard Conversations, the Subtle Art of Apologizing, and a Powerful 60-Day Challenge · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  30. “Collaborate, live together, be in a relationship. What should we do about that? And I do think that a lot of difficult conversations are about the argument, who's the problem here. And if instead it's the combination of us is part of what we're each struggling with, that's a much better frame.”

    2021-09-15 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #532: Sheila Heen of The Harvard Negotiation Project — How to Navigate Hard Conversations, the Subtle Art of Apologizing, and a Powerful 60-Day Challenge · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  31. “Think that that's and actually we dig into this a little bit more in the feedback book. The feedback book has a chapter on relationships. Thanks for the feedback. It has a chapter on relationship systems and the way that in relationships, working relationships or personal relationships, often we each have feedback for the other about how we think the other person needs to change. You have feedback for me, that's hilarious because the problem here is clearly you. And obviously that's part of what's happening here as well. Because the problem isn't that there's something wrong with me or something wrong with you is that the combination of the two of us is a little bit of a struggle on some front. So that's a shared problem for us to figure out if we're going to continue to”

    2021-09-15 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #532: Sheila Heen of The Harvard Negotiation Project — How to Navigate Hard Conversations, the Subtle Art of Apologizing, and a Powerful 60-Day Challenge · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  32. “Better prepared to answer your questions in the meeting. Would that be possible rather than ambushing me, but you don't add the last rather than ambushing me part?”

    2021-09-15 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #532: Sheila Heen of The Harvard Negotiation Project — How to Navigate Hard Conversations, the Subtle Art of Apologizing, and a Powerful 60-Day Challenge · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  33. “So, if I attack you, you're going to attack me back. And if I am willing to own my part of this, I make it easier for you to be willing to own yours. If you don't, how do you bring up someone else's contribution? Sometimes you can do it as a request. Hey, I don't know if this would be possible, but would you be able to fill in the blank? Implicitly, I'm asking you to change something because what you're doing now isn't helping from my point of view. But I'm framing it not as a would you knock it off, but instead would you be willing to do something different? And that sometimes helps, especially when you're talking up in hierarchy. Hey, boss, if you could give me a heads up before the meeting, I could probably”

    2021-09-15 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #532: Sheila Heen of The Harvard Negotiation Project — How to Navigate Hard Conversations, the Subtle Art of Apologizing, and a Powerful 60-Day Challenge · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  34. “So I'll just own what are the feelings that are driving me to be so insistent about what we need to do. So there is some first position like self-reflection and what am I contributing to the problem stuff going on that I'll be willing to own? One of the strongest norms in the literature, the research literature is reciprocity.”

    2021-09-15 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #532: Sheila Heen of The Harvard Negotiation Project — How to Navigate Hard Conversations, the Subtle Art of Apologizing, and a Powerful 60-Day Challenge · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  35. “Exactly. It's like, look, the chapter had 10 things that were really working about it. And one or two that we sensed were not quite right. So, why did we have to throw out the 10? Sometimes you got to throw out the 10. You got to kill your darlings because otherwise, you're not going to see what it is that's wrong. You've got to rebuild it. And he's really good at being more comfortable with the rebuilding, the tearing down, especially. So I'll maybe start with, look, I know that part of what's driving me is I just am incredibly anxious. I'm totally freaked out that we're not going to figure this out”

    2021-09-15 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #532: Sheila Heen of The Harvard Negotiation Project — How to Navigate Hard Conversations, the Subtle Art of Apologizing, and a Powerful 60-Day Challenge · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  36. “What have we learned since? What didn't we include? What's missing? So when we're writing together, Doug is really good at taking things apart and letting them be messy for a while because he has a sense or we both have a sense like this isn't quite right, but we can't figure out what's wrong with it. He's really good at taking it apart and taking it apart, letting it be messy again where we don't see the way out from a writing point of view makes me very anxious.”

    2021-09-15 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #532: Sheila Heen of The Harvard Negotiation Project — How to Navigate Hard Conversations, the Subtle Art of Apologizing, and a Powerful 60-Day Challenge · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  37. “Which is often that I get when I get frustrated, the place I tend to go is bossy dictatorial. We don't time for this. This is what we're going to do. And as an oldest sister, it's really a strength of mine, to be bossy. When people say I'm bossy, I'm like, well, if you would listen to me, your life would be going so much better. So I don't see what the problem is. But I think I see my own patterns and Willing to own them. I know that I am feeling maybe freaked out or anxious that we're not going to finish this on time. Let's imagine we're working on a chapter that isn't working. And by the way, we're reworking difficult conversations now, like as we speak. We're doing a third edition. So I've got my book here with all my notes and markups.”

    2021-09-15 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #532: Sheila Heen of The Harvard Negotiation Project — How to Navigate Hard Conversations, the Subtle Art of Apologizing, and a Powerful 60-Day Challenge · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  38. “My best self, my best self wouldn't have called an hour later. I would have waited a little longer. So that I can see my part of it. My best self, when she shows up, does tend to start with what I think I've contributed to the problem.”

    2021-09-15 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #532: Sheila Heen of The Harvard Negotiation Project — How to Navigate Hard Conversations, the Subtle Art of Apologizing, and a Powerful 60-Day Challenge · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  39. “I mean, it actually is relatively rare, but I'm still thinking what are you talking about? Like, of course, we're frustrated with each other. That's normal. And we'll figure it out. I probably am not really seeing what you're trying to tell me or why this makes sense. So the meaning I make of it is like. Good friends can talk it through. And the meaning he makes it of it is good friends don't have fights.”

    2021-09-15 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #532: Sheila Heen of The Harvard Negotiation Project — How to Navigate Hard Conversations, the Subtle Art of Apologizing, and a Powerful 60-Day Challenge · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  40. “Every once in a while, we'll have an argument or really be frustrated, genuinely frustrated with each other. And what he says happens when that happens is that he basically goes home and thinks like, well, it was a great friendship, but I guess it's over. I'm just going to, I'm going to erase you from my favorites, my speed dialit. And I guess I'm going to have to figure out how to move on and find someone else to collaborate with because for him, an argument, it would have to be so bad. To get it out in the open and for someone to be frustrated with him is a huge identity issue for him. So from his perspective, it's over. And then like an hour later, I'll call him. And he's like, why are you calling me? We're not friends anymore.”

    2021-09-15 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #532: Sheila Heen of The Harvard Negotiation Project — How to Navigate Hard Conversations, the Subtle Art of Apologizing, and a Powerful 60-Day Challenge · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  41. “Maybe set expectations, but also learn over time. So actually, it's interesting because I'm on the more sensitive side with my husband. So he's harsher than I am much of the time. Because of just the families we grew up in. I stand on the other side vis- ⁇-vis my co author and business partner whose name is Doug Stone. Doug is much more sensitive than I am. And so I have the fun of feeling frustrated at how sensitive he is sometimes. And we've been, I mean, we've been very close friends and collaborators for 28 years or something probably coming up on 30 years now, more than 30 years since 1991. 30 years.”

    2021-09-15 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #532: Sheila Heen of The Harvard Negotiation Project — How to Navigate Hard Conversations, the Subtle Art of Apologizing, and a Powerful 60-Day Challenge · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  42. “Yes, it did because John's reputation in my family and with most people who know him is, you know, he's got some rough edges. He likes to be a little bit provocative. Once you get to know him and understand his really beautiful, generous heart and that it's a little bit of a persona that he puts on. His own entertainment, as well as hopefully others, you really adore him. So they sort of hear it and make meaning of it as it is actually intended.”

    2021-09-15 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #532: Sheila Heen of The Harvard Negotiation Project — How to Navigate Hard Conversations, the Subtle Art of Apologizing, and a Powerful 60-Day Challenge · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  43. “Yeah, they say but is the great eraser. So it feels like the first part is just easing in. The second part is what this is really about. When in fact often both things are equally true, which is why AND helps.”

    2021-09-15 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #532: Sheila Heen of The Harvard Negotiation Project — How to Navigate Hard Conversations, the Subtle Art of Apologizing, and a Powerful 60-Day Challenge · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  44. “Yeah, we sometimes give people two chairs and put the positive feelings here. And in this other chair, put the negative feelings there, say what you want to say to them, and when you move between chairs, you need to spend time in each chair, and when you move between chairs, use the word and, not but. Usually, we'll say, I love you, but you're driving me crazy.”

    2021-09-15 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #532: Sheila Heen of The Harvard Negotiation Project — How to Navigate Hard Conversations, the Subtle Art of Apologizing, and a Powerful 60-Day Challenge · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  45. “I'm also mad at you for bringing it up now. And I'm worried and frustrated that I don't think I'm going to be able to sleep. And I feel partly wrongly accused or misunderstood at least. And so I feel conflicted. And the feelings, if we're going to step into the feelings conversation part of difficult conversations, often there's a headline feeling. There's a feeling I think I'm supposed to have right now, but underneath that are a whole bundle of conflicting and mixed feelings and sometimes sorting them out. And I think this is part of what Dick Schwartz is helping people do with IFS, which is to sort out the parts of them that feel differently. I love you, and I'm mad at you right now. Yes.”

    2021-09-15 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #532: Sheila Heen of The Harvard Negotiation Project — How to Navigate Hard Conversations, the Subtle Art of Apologizing, and a Powerful 60-Day Challenge · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  46. “I find it hard when you accuse me of being selfish when I do that, since I don't think that's really what's going on, what should we do about that? I know you feel upset and betrayed and let down by me, and I feel wrongly accused and upset and betrayed that you would think that of me, that we can both be upset at the same time. So that's the Yumi and. Then there's another thing called a me and, and this is much more what Jick Schwartz, I think, is talking about, which is that. I love you and admire how skillfully you've brought this up and care that I have once again upset or hurt you.”

    2021-09-15 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #532: Sheila Heen of The Harvard Negotiation Project — How to Navigate Hard Conversations, the Subtle Art of Apologizing, and a Powerful 60-Day Challenge · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  47. “And so when it's your turn to do the dishes, the food does sit. And I wonder what we should do about that. There's a difference between how I prefer things and how you prefer things and the conversation is about just better understanding that and what we should do about it, that that's a promising way to start a conversation. It's also related to what we call the AND stance. And there are a couple different kinds of ands. There's what we call the you-me AND. I know you prefer it this way, and I prefer it another way. I know that you find it hard when I'm harsh or direct or make unilateral decisions.”

    2021-09-15 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #532: Sheila Heen of The Harvard Negotiation Project — How to Navigate Hard Conversations, the Subtle Art of Apologizing, and a Powerful 60-Day Challenge · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  48. “Step above the fray and name what's happening. That's what the couples are doing in the Gottman work, which is to just admit I am good and you are bad. That's what's really going on here. Like you're naming our usual escalation pattern. So, in the book, we talk about stepping to the third position, starting a conversation from the third position, which is, I know that you and I struggle with a difference, or I know we feel differently about how we talk to each other, for instance. Or I know that it makes me crazy when the dishes are not done before everyone goes to bed and food sits on the table, which I think is disgusting. And I know that after dinner, you just want to relax.”

    2021-09-15 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #532: Sheila Heen of The Harvard Negotiation Project — How to Navigate Hard Conversations, the Subtle Art of Apologizing, and a Powerful 60-Day Challenge · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  49. “So we talk about really skilled communicators and negotiators developing first position skills, second position skills, and third position skills. So first position skills are how self-aware are you of what's going on for you, what meaning you're making of things, different emotions you're bringing to the table or identity issues, et cetera. And can you share them clearly and skillfully? Second position skills are how good are you at stepping into someone else's shoes and imagining the world as they see it and finding a way to get yourself to genuine curiosity. If I can get from that's crazy to I wonder why you think something like that which feels crazy. Well, that's at least a step in the right direction. So those are empathy skills. And also letting them know that you understand or that you're working to understand it anyway. And third position skills are can I”

    2021-09-15 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #532: Sheila Heen of The Harvard Negotiation Project — How to Navigate Hard Conversations, the Subtle Art of Apologizing, and a Powerful 60-Day Challenge · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT

  50. “Yeah, there's a way in which you're stepping to what we would call the third position, like to a balcony to name what's going on.”

    2021-09-15 · The Tim Ferriss Show · #532: Sheila Heen of The Harvard Negotiation Project — How to Navigate Hard Conversations, the Subtle Art of Apologizing, and a Powerful 60-Day Challenge · IDENTIFIED FROM THE TRANSCRIPT