Barry Ward
Dún Laoghaire · Fine Gael · Ireland
“I acknowledge all of the factors the Minister of State set out. I welcome them all and it is really important that we spread that message. The second part of the Minister of State's response is really important and that is the EU jobs part. I would not necessarily limit it just to the European Union.”
“Let us not abdicate responsibility for politically unpopular decisions, which are still the right decisions, made at European level with the involvement of Irish people.”
“There is little doubt about the positivity we associate with membership of the European Union. Some 82% of Irish people favour membership of the European Union, the highest rate of approval of any European state.”
“It is really important, not from the point of view of influence but from the point of view of presence, that there are Irish people around the table when decisions are being made so that the Irish perspective is understood and heard.”
“To look at it from a purely economic standpoint, the value of being part of the Single Market is enormous. In 1973, we imported €340 million more in goods than we exported. In recent times, we have had an export surplus. We have exported more than €53 billion more than we have imported.”
“As we hold the Presidency of the Council of the EU and are at the heart of Europe, leading the agenda and setting the tone in respect of our priorities during the Presidency, what is the Government doing to communicate to Irish people just how lucky we are to be part of the European Union?”
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“The issue I want to raise with the Minister today has some similarity to the last issue in that it relates to Garda action, particularly in respect of juvenile antisocial behaviour cases. "Antisocial behaviour" is an umbrella term that covers many different activities. Some will say that antisocial behaviour is just that, antisocial, but of course it encompasses criminality as well. I fear there are certain young people who are behaving antisocially, but by extension criminally, with impunity. They are not being held to account for what they are doing, for the impact they are having on local communities and specific residents, and in terms of their criminal actions. The Minister knows I have been practising in criminal law for nearly 20 years and have dealt with juvenile cases.”
“In the scheme of things, would we not be much better off letting citizens know what the Bill and the Act actually do to make their air cleaner and safer to breathe? Would we not be better off bringing them into the conversation about what is happening rather than creating legislative and legal jargon that isolates them from the process? I support the Bill and what it does. It is very important to modernise the framework for air pollution regulation but there are better ways to draft it. However, I support the substance of the Bill and welcome the Bill as it continues its passage through the Houses.”
“I know the reality is that most citizens will never read this legislation and that it will be dealt with by enforcement officers within State agencies and by people working in compliance within industries generating electricity or producing products. I know that but I still think this is an example of how we repeatedly pass legislation in this House that is not accessible to ordinary citizens. It should be possible for a citizen to read this legislation. In fairness, that is possible with the 1987 Act. For example, section 6 of that Act refers to "Industrial plant and existing industrial plant". You know what that means. Section 7 of this Act is about amending section 12A of the principal Act. I just do not think that means anything to people outside of the industry and those dealing with compliance and enforcement of the Act.”
“There is always more we can do to ensure that we are reducing the number of toxins we are putting into the atmosphere and, perhaps more importantly, the number of toxins we are allowing industry to put into the air, whether as a byproduct of generating electricity or of generating other products. There are a range of issues that are already affecting human health. This Bill will go some way towards addressing those and ensuring that the 2023 clean air strategy can be implemented in a way that benefits the population. The modernisation of the recognition of the legal framework for enforcing air pollution standards is really important. That is what the Bill does.”
“I said that there are wider issues here and that air pollution is the biggest environmental threat to human health in Europe. However, there are greater environmental threats. Water quality is one. While it may not be specifically addressed by this Bill, the reality is that we benefit from a nitrates derogation in this country, which puts a greater obligation on us to ensure improved water quality. If we continue the way we are going, we are not going to do that. I recognise the need for that derogation but I also recognise the fact that there is much more we can do to improve water quality, whether in our inland waterways, in what is discharged into the sea or in the water around our coasts. That is also true of air pollution.”
“That goes beyond what is in this amendment Bill but a Government policy decision needs to be made so that those industries that create air pollutants are incentivised to do what they need to do and to act responsibly even before they meet the thresholds that result in criminal or administrative liability. Those companies should be incentivised to do something more to ensure they are reducing air pollution from their industries. They should also be aided in putting in place systems that might reduce their absolute contribution to diminishing air quality. I think this was referred to as a carrot and a stick earlier in the debate. I absolutely support that idea. This Bill is more about the stick. That is fair enough because the stick has to be strong enough to bring prosecutions to bear, where appropriate. That is hugely important.”
“If we are serious about addressing those issues, we must also be serious about resourcing the agencies that carry out enforcement at the local level. We must ensure that they can carry out their duties and that they have the resources to carry out investigations and to put in place the remedies that need to be put in place. We should also be looking at putting in place schemes or systems to allow those industries or systems that are likely to fall foul of the air pollution legislation to do the best they can or to do more to ensure that citizens are kept safe from bad air quality.”
“Putting in place the things that we need to do to stop all of those threats to all of us in terms of air pollution is hugely important, and in line with the 2023 clean air strategy for Ireland. Providing those updates is really important. However, I also agree with what has been said by other speakers in this debate about providing resources to implement clean air and not just providing the systems and structures to allow us to prosecute those who are causing problems in the context of air pollution. That is important, but if we really want to tackle this issue, there is a general environmental aspect that goes beyond air pollution. Water pollution is another issue, although I know it is not part of this Bill.”
“I understand where he is coming from in terms of a policy perspective, but I think there are much more proximate issues that are addressed in this that are very important. In particular, the enforcement measures in this Bill are very helpful from the point of view of empowering the State to take action where needed. That is the most important thing in this Bill. The fact is that there are scenarios we are allowing to slip through the cracks now. We need to plug those cracks in order to ensure that air quality issues are not going undressed because of a lack of legislative footing to do so. The revision of the 1987 Act is most important in that regard.”
“However, we know there is a growth in rates of asthma, particularly in kids. We know that there has been a growth in numbers of respiratory conditions. We know from statistics that there is a growth in deaths as a result of poor air quality and air pollution. It is appropriate that we should be doing whatever we can to address that. That is why I welcome, for example, the reform of section 4 from the 1987 Act to expand the definition, for example, of "air pollution" to make it clear that it covers myriad things that were not necessarily even envisaged when the legislation was passed in 1987. Such is the vintage of that particular legislation, it predates many of the things that are causing air pollution now. Deputy Ahern mentioned data centres. I do not know if this problem is necessarily a justification for a moratorium on data centres.”
“I am a lawyer. I read legislation, and I have been doing this for a while. This is difficult for me to penetrate. If it is difficult for me, it will be even more difficult for people who are not doing this all the time. It is incumbent on the House to say that we want to pass legislation that people can access. When they cannot, it is a waste of everybody's time. Worse than that, it is isolating ordinary citizens from an ability to see what we are doing. That said, I have gone through the Bill and I welcome the provisions it contains. Air pollution is hugely important. It is the biggest environmental risk to human health, certainly in Europe. The number of unnecessary deaths that result from environmental and air pollution is enormous. This is hidden because people's actual cause of death is often not ascribed to air pollution.”
“We do this all the time, and what we are doing is creating greater distance between citizens and their ability to understand what the law says. There is no need to do it either. When we have amending or consolidating legislation, what we should be doing is taking section 15 of the 1987 Act, repealing it and completely restating it in its totality in the amending Act. That way it is all there for everybody to see and everybody can be clear on what is involved. With air pollution, there is not a huge amount of change in the legislation in that over the number of years, but if we look at things like taxation Acts finance Acts, social welfare Acts, road traffic Acts, there have been multiple amending pieces of legislation. This means that if a person wants to look up what the law says in a particular area, it is absolutely illegible.”
“I will start by welcoming the Bill. Given that it amends the Air Pollution Act 1987, it is somewhat overdue in terms of updating a lot of the terminology. I have looked through it. While I welcome the Bill, its contents and the idea behind it, I want to start with a criticism. This is a criticism that I frequently make of legislation, particularly updating or amending legislation of this sort. When we look at the table of contents of this Bill, it amends the 1987 Act. Every section refers to things like,"Amendment of section 15 of the principal Act". I understand how that works, but when this becomes law, a layperson will not be able to read it because it makes no sense in isolation. A person would have to find the 1987 Act, look to see what section 15 says, see which particular part it amends and then apply the amendment themselves.”
“One of the things that has really blossomed in the past few years is not just women's sport, because it was always there, but our understanding and recognition of women's sport, which was not always there. I attended the club final last year in Tallaght. The feeling at a club match with women is much better than it is with men. There is a much greater family atmosphere and the competition is more fierce.”
“That is also the case with clubs like Ballybrack FC and Seaford Rock United. There are so many of these teams. They contribute so much. There is no amount of money that would actually supplant what they do for a community. The value they add for a community is enormous in terms of the networks, the comradery, experience, sportsmanship and team-building. All of these things are vital aspects of it. I want to comment specifically on women's involvement because among all of the clubs I have mentioned some are very strong in youth, some are very strong in terms of their success and where their players go on to play but all of them have also committed to women's sport.”
“The founder of that dairy had fought in the battle of Tell El Kebir in Egypt in 1882 and on the crest of the football club there is the sphinx, the year of the battle and the word "Egypt". It is a hugely historic name. It was founded in 1946. It is a hugely important club just next to Stradbrook. In fact, Emily Bolger in my office plays for them as well. We have a great connection to TEK United. There are also Cabinteely FC and Dalkey United FC who colocate with Cuala GAA club. I attended Cuala this morning as it announced an new sponsorship deal with Amgen. Both of those teams have huge community involvement and the local area is so lucky to have so many people who give their time, effort, blood, sweat and tears for the club, as well as the players who commit so much.”
“Its chair, Ciaran Kane, and all the people involved in running the club have taken up opportunities that have been presented to them. For example, Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown, and specifically Blackrock, created a friendship agreement with Vincennes, which is a suburb of Paris, and now every year a junior team from Granada will go to Vincennes to play in a tournament there and they will often win. I think they surprised people a couple of years ago when they did as well as they did. They are competing with teams from all over Europe in some instances and from all over Paris and all over France. That is an indication of something that soccer, football, can use to build bridges between people. TEK United is another hugely important club with an interesting history. It is named after Sutton's T.E.K., which was a dairy in that area.”
“People like Ollie Crilly who are involved in running the club there are part and parcel of the community providing a facility particularly for young kids and a feeder than to more serious soccer at older level. Within Sallynoggin, the club is a huge outlet for kids in the area. It is a huge source of competition but also an opportunity for them to build skills and community and become part of teams, which is so important. I understand that Granada F.C. in Blackrock - its name is a portmanteau of Granville and Ardagh, the two housing estates either side of Newtownpark Avenue that originally put together the team - is the largest youth club in the country. It is so active. I am privileged to have been at many of its matches but also to praise it.”
“I join with other Members who have talked about the value of football and what it does for communities and for the nation. I congratulate both our men's and women's teams for their successes on the one hand and their disappointments on the other but their effort in both cases. Beidh lá eile acu. We have a great foundation to build on despite the disappointment in Czechia recently. I will focus on football at a local level. In Dún Laoghaire, we are blessed to have more than a couple of really excellent local football teams and clubs. I think of places like Joey's in Sallynoggin, St. Joseph's AFC, which is not just the place where I cast my vote at the general election but also an enormous community organisation.”
“If we can deliver those projects that make their lives better and easier and reduce our carbon emissions and delays, it will create a better infrastructural society for us all. If the Bill can do this and if it is a step down that road, then it is a good thing. On this basis alone, I will welcome the Bill and support it as it goes through.”
“These projects can be done, but in order to do them and deliver 21st-century water treatment facilities for people in Dublin, and in order to deliver 21st-century or even 20th-century public transport systems, we have to approach this with some purpose. The Bill is the first step of that process, to my mind. Notwithstanding the concerns some Members have, and these can all be managed and we can look at the safeguards that are there, this is the way in which we get rid of the delays. We target certain projects and at governmental level we identify them and say a certain project is critical, and that for another one we will make the order under section 3 and make it happen. If we can do that, it is a good thing for people in Dublin and throughout the country.”
“For example, if I think of Paris, the line 14, which was built in the past 25 or 30 years, started off with four stops in central Paris. The project is called Météor. It is a driverless train that is deeper, cleaner and fully wheelchair accessible. They built four stops and it now runs all the way from Saint-Lazare in north-west central Paris to Orly Airport. Initially they built a small line and added on a station at each end and then another station and another station. Instead of having a behemoth of an infrastructural project, they had smaller, bite-size projects that were more manageable. Even if such smaller projects do go pear-shaped for some reason, there is a way in which they do not impact on the delivery of the overall ambition over a period of years.”
“Because of massive infrastructure projects that have overrun and become problematic, the obvious one being the children's hospital, to a large extent politicians and the public service in Ireland are afraid of large-scale infrastructure projects. This is because they can prove so problematic and are so complex and, to a large extent, because the expertise is not there in the public service and we rely on external services to deliver them, which does not always work. In terms of building the metro, we do not have to implement a 100-stop metro in the morning or something the size of that in Paris, London or somewhere like that. We can do what they do in Paris, which is to build a short line with a small number of stops. This is the first project.”
“Here is your timeline. This is when it's going to be heard and if you're not ready, you're the one who loses out.” That can be done to make judicial review more efficient and thereby not deny people their rights of access to the courts to challenge decisions they have a problem with. As we know because they succeed, they are often right about the challenges they bring. The practical import of the challenges they bring is that they slow down the delivery of infrastructure, and there is no need for that process to restrict or inhibit the production of the critical infrastructure that is named in the Bill. Something else that springs to mind, which I frequently speak about, is the notion of an underground metro system for Dublin. The reality is that we need to start it.”
“On the subject of challenges, I heard some speakers speaking about how there is an attempt to shut down those using the courts to be activists for better standards and regulation and to stop things happening that should not happen. I agree with them that it is important to allow that to happen. I do not think the answer is to cut out judicial review. The answer is in two forms. The first is to have the judicial reviews but to speed them up. We should use a commercial court-style system, as was used in Ireland in the 1990s to speed up commercial cases. That can also be done for judicial reviews against planning systems. However, that also requires an investment in the Judiciary and more judges to hear those cases so they actually happen more quickly. There are cases where the litigants should be told, “This is the way it's going to happen.”
“At the moment not only is that overflowing into the sea but the time lapse in informing people who are swimming in the sea is so slow that they will already have swum in their own discharge - I do not know what the right word to use for that is - and they will not know about it until a day later when the tests come back to show there is bacteria in the water. If that is not something from a different age, I do not know what is, and it is solvable. It is exactly this kind of legislation that will help us solve it in the short term. That is a project that will be caught up in the 63-week delay before we can start construction, and that is provided there is not a challenge.”
“That is a relatively straightforward, simple, implementable solution to that problem. The longer term, much more complex, essentially multigenerational and multibillion euro project is to reform our sewerage and water systems so that we recycle water within homes, use sustainable urban drainage systems and ensure we minimise the use of water in real terms. That is a longer term project but we could build a second attenuation tank next to the West Pier pumping station at the gut at the back of the West Pier in Dún Laoghaire, which would solve that problem in the short term.”
“That is fine, and it holds the sewage until such time as it can be pumped through to Poolbeg, but when there is a lot of rain it fills up. When it is full, there is nowhere for the material to go but into the sea. We have many videos of this big, black slick coming into Dublin Bay off the back of the West Pier when that attenuation tank is full, and more raw sewage flows into it and there is nowhere for it to go but into the sea, in which we fish for our food and swim for recreation and have water sports. The same water that people swim in and eat from is having raw sewage pumped into it. There is no real justification for that except for the fact we have not taken the infrastructural solutions and implemented them to ensure there is a second attenuation tank at the back of the West Pier.”
“Many significant infrastructural problems have been allowed to languish over a generation, in essence. We need to take action on them. I think of my own area in Dún Laoghaire. I am forever harping on about water quality. We have a Victorian sewer system that means that when there is a high rainfall event or a lot of water, the run-off goes into the sewer system, down to the back of the West Pier in Dún Laoghaire, and an under-seabed pipe pumps the sewage from the West Pier pumping station to the Poolbeg sewage treatment plant, where it is treated and then discharged into the sea. That is fine, but the pipe only has a given capacity. When there is a lot of rain and the run-off also goes into that sewer system, there is overcapacity at the pumping station. There is an attenuation tank that is 70,000 cu. m. It fills up.”
“It takes a long time to get a wind farm up and running and, as we stand here, there is not a single operational offshore wind farm in Ireland. That is a shameful statistic. As we look at solar projects, wind projects, onshore as well, and wave projects we hope will come in the future, we need to be able to action them much more quickly than we are. In an ironic way, they are the very tools that will help us combat the climate crisis, reduce our carbon emissions and replace dirty energy with clean and renewable energy. What this Bill does makes perfect sense to me. We will be supporting legislation that is actually going to implement a change in the manner in which we create this critical infrastructure and make it available to the people of Ireland to help them solve problems into the future. God knows we have enough problems to solve.”
“When I look at this legislation, I also think about the strategic progress that needs to be made in terms of what we actually deliver for people in this country. At the moment, we have a situation where the types of projects that I anticipate will be covered by this legislation are, on average, taking 63 weeks to get to first-stage approval. This is before any challenges that might arise by way of judicial review or anything else. That is nearly two years. It is an astonishingly long time and an unnecessarily long time. The system at the moment is broken insofar as it is not delivering those projects. The examples that spring to mind when we talk about climate, for example, are renewable energy projects, including wind farms.”
“People will know what orders have been made, what the basis of those orders is for and what the impact of those orders would be. I kind of feel that any of those concerns that have been outlined are assuaged by what is actually in the Bill. I think the safeguards that are there mean we do not need to catastrophise about this legislation. It does not represent some kind of catastrophic or disastrous relinquishment of the important laws in relation to climate change and the safeguards that exist for climate change. I have heard other colleagues complaining about snails, frogs, bats, mosses and all that kind of thing. Those are important things, and we should not downplay the importance of biodiversity and the protection of that biodiversity.”
“I know we had a crash 15 years ago and there was irresponsibility that led to that, and that is fine, but in terms of corruption, all the indicators internationally are that this is a country in which we have gone away from corruption. We have moved away from the corruption we saw in the 1990s, which resulted - regressively, I think - in the removal of all these powers from local authority members. That is for another day’s debate. I do not think there is any basis now on which people should be suspicious about the operation of policy by the Government, which is elected by the people. There was talk about a lack of transparency. I note, for example, that section 3(4) requires that any orders made under section 3 would be laid before the Dáil within a reasonable period of time. There is, therefore, transparency there.”
“First, and most importantly, European law is still supreme to this legislation. This means the safeguards people are concerned about are still there at a European level, and challenges will still be possible in that context. The second thing is that there was a suggestion that I think is grounded in the notion that we cannot trust the Government to do the right thing. I fundamentally reject that. I know this is a week in which many people in this Chamber are suggesting that, but there is not actually a basis for that view. There is not any evidence to back it up. In my lifetime as an adult, if I can put it that way, the Government has consistently acted responsibly.”
“On the one hand, I recognise the potential progress that comes from this Bill and its necessity in terms of moving these critical infrastructure projects along. On the other hand, I have listened to what people have said about their concerns regarding what the impact of this legislation might be, specifically the modification of the way section 15 of the climate action Act will operate. Some Members have, essentially, catastrophised about the notion that suddenly we will be throwing out the door any concerns about climate action or taking cognisance of the fact that this is an existential threat for us, not just in this country but throughout the world. If I thought that was the case, I must say I would have a real problem with this legislation. I think, however, that two things hold for me.”
“I have been listening to the debate and it has been astonishing to hear the variety of opinions, concerns and misapprehensions about this Bill. On the one hand, I think it does represent progress. I remember when the Planning and Development (Strategic Infrastructure) Act was passed in 2006 and how that was a step forward in terms of bringing those strategic infrastructure projects into An Bord Pleanála, as it then was, rather than having them always going through local authorities and being delayed that way. In many ways, the 2006 Act was a step forward, but it did not really work, because we have found ourselves in a situation where we are still being delayed with those important strategic applications being made.”
“It is give and take. I am very proud of the work we have done as a country to help to provide for Ukraine. I have been there and seen what they have come through. The same argument could be made about Irish Aid and the work we do in much more under-developed countries, where children are starving. Is the Deputy saying we should take away their money as well?”
“When the economic crash came, we relied on the international community to keep us afloat and ensure Irish workers could put the country back where it was. Let us be honest about this. Being part of an international community is not only about taking and taking.”
“Something has just been said about the Minister, Deputy McEntee, going to Ukraine and giving a certain amount of money. I have heard this from constituents as well. One person asked me in Dún Laoghaire yesterday why we are giving money to Ukraine and what Ukraine has ever done for us. That is to fundamentally misunderstand what it is to be part of a global community. If the shoe were on the other foot and we were in a bad place, it might not be Ukraine helping us, but there would be other countries, particularly in the European Union-----”
“I welcome these measures and recognise that they are not enough to cushion everybody in this country from the effects of the greatest global energy crisis we have ever seen. It is unrealistic to tell people that the Government is in a position to do that. Let us be honest with people. Deputy Collins and I were on the radio this morning talking about this and he said he did not block anyone. I am not saying he did, but he supported people who did. Let us be honest about it, because those blockades stopped people getting to work and hospital, and carers getting to elderly people. I do not really want to get involved in recriminations and playing the blame game. What is much more important is that we look at it through a lens of realism.”
“I mention supports for them perhaps in the context of a sports club or another community group or organisation. Is that outside the remit of the Department or can it be considered?”
“I acknowledge all of the supports available already. The bodies that tend to be supported by SICAP funding and some of the other funding streams the Minister of State mentioned tend to be community organisations, which is welcome. In the context of what I was saying about the younger age groups, sports clubs also have a role, and they are successful, but they are not really in the remit of what the Minister of State has been talking about. I mention places where people can gather socially. For example, we know we have a problem with the nighttime economy and the availability of spaces for people to mix outside the pub culture. Is there any role for this kind of funding not so much for commercial supports but to facilitate the existence of cafés particularly after 9 p.m., places where people can gather?”
“Will the Minister of State consider enhanced supports particularly for groups that deal with social exclusion, loneliness and isolation for younger ages groups? Is there something to be said for increasing supports in that regard?”
“I thank the Minister of State. We in Ireland consider ourselves to be a fairly happy nation. Even the happiness index published recently shows that we are up there. Yet, report after report shows that loneliness in Ireland and other countries in the western world is growing all the time. Organisations such as men's sheds, community groups and church groups do amazing work bringing people together, avoiding social exclusion, providing a vehicle for people to communicate with each other and build networks and friendships which is important. Are they predominantly focused, as we live longer and better lives, on people in the older cohort? Is there more we can do for people in the younger cohort? We have pubs and cafes, of course, but they are not always the best place for people to come together.”
“The Minister will be aware of many community organisations around the country which focus on social exclusion. Are better supports available for them, conscious of the supports already available? Social exclusion is an issue that permeates society and has a massive effect. It is incumbent on us to deal with it. If we do not, it creates all kinds of other problems. Can we create greater supports and funding for those organisations?”
“The idea here is that there would be somebody in the local authority who knows exactly how the applications work, and who might be able to look at a group's application before it is submitted online or in paper format and advise the group where there might be a problem or where something might need to be changed, such as opening a bank account or whatever it might be. For example, many local authorities have officers who deal with European funding because of the same administrative and bureaucratic burdens on organisations in getting funding in this context. Is there a role for a community support officer to do the same thing in relation to national funding for community groups?”
“I welcome what the Minister of State said about there not being a wrong door. He is absolutely right. Applications should not be cancelled because of an administrative error or something like that. At the same time, we both recognise that this is public money, and there needs to be transparency and things need to be done right. That is important too. Even in relation to what the Minister of State said about online applications, very often we are dealing with small community groups. There might be one person or a small committee involved in making the application, and it can sometimes be very onerous on them.”
“The idea behind this question is that there would be a community support officer in the local authority in the local area with the institutional knowledge and memory of how these forms need to be done, what systems need to be put in place and which boxes need to be ticked to ensure local community organisations get the most they can out of the SICAP funding the Minister of State mentioned and any of the other streams of funding available. The money is there. This is about ensuring that local organisations, which may not have a very strong organisational basis themselves, get every opportunity they can to access the funding and do good things in local communities.”
“I acknowledge what the Minister of State said about the amount of funding and supports there. The Minister of State and I know that Deputy Peter Roche, in particular, has done a huge amount of work in this area. He has worked particularly in the context of helping to support community organisations in his area. The difficulty he has identified, and other colleagues tell me they see it all over the country, is not a lack of funding, because there is a huge amount of funding there for the very communities the Minister of State mentioned, but a difficulty accessing it. Sometimes very bureaucratic and onerous processes have to be gone through.”
“Yes, I am taking it. It was originally a question put down by Deputy Roche. He cannot be here today because his brother passed away last night. I extend my sympathies to the family at this sad time. This question relates to the idea that we would have community assistance officers in local authorities to help community groups to apply for funding and short-circuit the administration and bureaucracy involved in making those applications and help them to get what they need for the local communities.”