Ruairí Ó Murchú
Louth · Sinn Féin · Ireland
“It was hardly a shock to me and many others that he decided that the simplicity that was asked for by Sinn Féin last week, such that we would consider preparations for Irish unity, was not acceptable. Most people would see this as a possibility, even those who do not necessarily like the idea.”
“I welcome that. I have spoken previously to the Minister about the necessity of providing Mr. Delaney's report on the incident to Natasha and the wider family.”
“We will all be very interested to see what the new circular is. The Minister of State said it will be announced in September. A needs-based system is what we need. I would like to think the young boy I talked about would be able to avail of this. I will use him as an example. The correct assessments were carried out.”
“We just need to make sure that the circular is fit for purpose and that the young primary school child to whom I refer will be given the supports he requires. I will just finish reading from the communication to which I referred earlier.”
“We need to ensure that the engagement with Lebanon is ongoing. Are we happy with the interaction with the UN? There had been some issues relating to the coroner's court. Everyone needs to do everything that can be done to ensure truth and justice for the family of Private Seán Rooney.”
“I thank the Ceann Comhairle for all the flexibility she allows in this Chamber, and hopefully that will continue as we speak. I welcome an awful lot of what Deputy Devlin said.”
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“I accept that some of the reason this will be carried out is on the basis of ensuring in November that the increases would be somewhat reduced, but with increasing house prices - we know about the significant issue of the housing crisis and its huge impact - people will consequently have to pay more tax on their properties. We are not necessarily taking into account their ability to pay. I accept that there are criteria people can meet to avail of deferrals, but deferral means it is still on the books. Someone has to pay and there will be a percentage - I believe it is 4% - accrual in interest. That in itself is not a solution. I agree with what Deputy John McGuinness said. A huge question about local authority services is the old one of what people are getting. It is about the ability of the local authority to deliver.”
“Sinn Féin has always opposed the local property tax. We saw it for what it was. It was imposed at a time of austerity. It was not about services or fulfilling the needs of local authorities. It was literally about ensuring money was brought in because of the dreadful circumstances the State found itself in. It was about us following through on the edicts of the International Monetary Fund, IMF, and others. When we talk about taxing wealth, we cannot think or talk about the family home. It must fall into a different category.”
“Where is the crossover between the National Cyber Security Centre, the Defence Forces and the Department of justice? We want something that works. We all welcome the fact that we will have sonar capacity. We need to ensure our undersea cables are secure.”
“We have had the disgraceful action by the genocidal entity, Israel, with its escalation of attacks on Iran. This draws into question the EU-Israel association agreement and we need to see movement on that, post-haste. We already knew that. The occupied territories Bill obviously has to be delivered and apply to services. Beyond that, what is the plan? The Taoiseach might not agree with the Sinn Féin legislation to stop the State and the Central Bank from facilitating the sale of Israel's war bonds, which are used to finance the genocide. In regard to national security strategy, how does it take into account the cyberthreats? We are dealing with issues with spy software such as Predator and Pegasus. What resources, capabilities and legislation do we require?”
“The workers and students of Parnell Square and the residents and business owners of Frederick Street North want to know when the Government will announce ring-fenced budgets for the task force recommendations, when the inner city communities will begin to feel the revitalisation the task force aims to achieve and when there will be a decisive shift from recommendations to robust action. Across the State we need to see community safety partnerships up and running with the right model, membership and resourcing. Time is of the essence.”
“It has now been 239 days since the recommendations of the Dublin city task force were published and 145 days since the programme for Government, which included a commitment to these recommendations, was agreed. The recommendations are aimed at rejuvenating Dublin city centre, focusing on the public realm, safety and overall experience. Such is the lack of tangible progress in initiatives such as revitalising O'Connell Street, increasing residential density and improving public safety that the task force's ten big moves are beginning to look like ten wasted opportunities or, more shamefully, ten election promises that have been quickly forgotten. Without dedicated funding and a clear roadmap for delivery, the task force's recommendations will remain another shelved document rather than a catalyst for real change.”
“We all know the enormous work that needs to be done on flood protection and flood mitigation. In my county, there have been many promises regarding the CFRAM. Even in the part of Dundalk that I live in, there is a significant flood risk. Accepting these works are going to be done, there is still an issue with insurance and insurance companies in terms of flood protection and people attaining mortgages. At one stage, Louth County Council and others were willing to provide the information that the area no longer suffered flooding, but that has not happened, so we need mitigation measures for these people.”
“The following question was asked: “Do you believe the Irish fishing industry is in a better state than it was 10 years ago?” The responses were as follows: 5.63% said somewhat worse while 92.96% said it was much worse. I will leave it at that.”
“I have 4 young children. I have a limited number of years left in this industry as it will soon be gone for good on our disastrous current course. I would love my children to be part of this industry/community/heritage that we have but are fast losing. To steer them towards fishing now would be to stifle them for the rest of their lives. It is frightening to see what bad politics and bad politics alone can do to a once thriving industry. That is how a considerable number of people see it. We have made recommendations. One is a fish Ireland office, which would be based in Brussels. The issues relate to regulation, to the Department dealing with communities and those involved and to the agencies involved. A lot can be done.”
“It is fair to say the European Union has been very beneficial to a lot of sectors, industries and the State as a whole but everybody saw the Common Fisheries Policy was one of the means by which this State bought its way into the European Union and, unfortunately, fishing communities have paid a price. We have to assess where we are now and move beyond that. I commend the work done by Deputies McGuinness and Mac Lochlainn on the survey which engaged hundreds of those involved in the fishing industry. It is a vital piece of work. Deputy Mac Lochlainn met fishermen throughout the country and he and I met fishermen in Clogherhead. The issues they have are across the board. I want to put the following on the record from the survey: I am a fisherman from a fishing family involved in fishing and fish processing for over 100 years.”
“I would like to do what my colleagues have done and wish the Minister of State well. He will hear a lot today about the issues that exist. Having dealt with stakeholders previously, I imagine he is aware of some of the critical issues impacting on those involved in the fishing and seafood industry, whether we are talking about those in Carlingford, Clogherhead or elsewhere in this State and beyond. When we talk about farming, we always talk about the sustainability of the family farm. We need to talk about the sustainability of those employed and who earn their living from the seafood and fishing industry but also those wider coastal communities. I do not think we are anywhere close to that now.”
“The INTO has also spoken about the fact that the capitation funding is not cutting the mustard. We heard what the CPSMA said today along with the principals of Scoil Aonghusa , St. Joseph's CBS, Tullyallen NS and Scoil Naomh Feichín, all in Louth. Deputy Joanna Byrne has dealt with some of those issues previously. We are talking about schools that are almost running into the ground because they do not have funding. This is not funding for the extras; it is to keep the show on the road. It needs to be addressed.”
“I welcome the answer but I agree with the Minister of State that more work needs to be done. We are still being contacted by those who do not have places for next year. We need those cases sorted as soon as possible. It is not right. I would appreciate if the Minister of State could come back to me in writing with some more detail on the timeline for school-based therapies. I will be pushing this. On the common application system, it needs not to be a common application system from the point of view of failure. It has to be about delivery. We know the issues that exist. I do not know if it is the Minister of State or the Minister, Deputy McEntee, who would need to deal with that but it is very hard not to deal with the issue. Deputy Dolan spoke about the INTO and the necessity for SENCOs. I agree with him on that.”
“It is a matter of making sure the second unit is put in place. We have to look again at school-based therapies. Is there a possibility of any timeline for this in respect of special schools, schools with units and then mainstream?”
“Some of the complaints have been that in many cases, particularly when we are talking about secondary schools, we are aware of the children who are in primary school and coming into that age bracket. It is about making sure everybody is talking to everybody else to ensure the NCSE, the schools and the Department have the information. I agree that action did need to happen on school admissions policies. I have proposed legislation in respect of the fact that for kids with additional needs, there should be a two-year run-in. I know changes have happened. A two-year run-in would allow the school to prepare whatever resources are required and we would actually have those places on hand. That is an absolute necessity. I am grateful that the Minister of State came back to me on Shelagh national school.”
“What work has been done to ensure appropriate primary and secondary school placements for all children? We know about the issue that has existed in regard to those with special needs. Can we ensure that everything is in place for the academic year 2025-26? We know the constant problems there have been, with parents having been put through the mincer, for want of a better term. We need to ensure we are looking after all our citizens properly.”
“I welcome what the Tánaiste has said. I agree that heaven and earth needs to be moved to get justice for the family. I accept that we are now out of time and that I will get a written answer. I will follow up on this issue. I also ask the Tánaiste that we resolve the issue regarding John McNeela and the payment on the basis of Michael McNeela's sacrifice. That is the only right thing to do.”
“I raised earlier the issue of Seán Rooney. We know there is a legal case at this point. We have had many interactions on this and I think there is agreement across the House that we need to seek justice for Seán Rooney and his family. We also need to make sure that, through all the processes, what is learned is carried forward such that the absolute best protocols are carried out in the context of our Defence Forces. On a question completely unrelated to the triple lock, it also means that at times we probably need to have straight conversations with the UN about its responsibility, even in providing information. I ask the Tánaiste to give an update on the Government's interactions in trying to seek that justice and making sure all is done for Seán Rooney.”
“The Tánaiste will not be shocked at the question I am going to ask now regarding Michael McNeela, who lost his life in Lebanon in 1989. His mother received the pension but when she died, his father, John, did not. I have spoken to the Tánaiste about it before. It is something that needs to be resolved. Discussions between the Tánaiste's Department and the Department of Social Protection were meant to take place about finding an interim solution, but the legislation needs to change.”
“It is fair to say that we will be seeing continuity in Israel's pattern of behaviour. It is not surprising for an entity that engages in genocidal action. The shooting at Irish peacekeepers and diplomats was an absolute disgrace. We know the actions we need to take, whether it is the occupied territories Bill and the inclusion of services. I agree with the Tánaiste that the Commission needs to take action regarding the EU-Israel association agreement. All I can say is that it is a disgrace. We also have to find a way to ensure we are not facilitating the sale of Israeli war bonds by whatever means possible. I have two questions. One of them relates to Seán Rooney. We have to do right by peacekeepers and make sure we do everything for them. I know there is a case at this point.”
“There has been a good piece of work done here. It was a necessary piece of work. More needs to be done. What are the Minister of State's plans for engagement with those stakeholders? I ask that if there are further pieces needed that we could have that done, I would say on Report Stage but it looks like this Stage is going to go on for a wee while longer.”
“A piece of work needs to be done on interaction with stakeholders, particularly those stakeholders who had an issue with this. I ask that this would happen. Beyond that, people could be offered an explanation as to how this will work. I get that we are talking about a small cohort of people who could be involuntarily admitted and then because of their situation and circumstances - and I have it seen it - down to paranoia or whatever else, they are not going to take treatment. In some cases, they will refuse food and all of the rest of it. We are talking about people who are in a very distressed circumstance. We need to ensure that all of the protections are there from a human rights point of view. That goes without saying. We need to make sure this is operational. That was the fear of those who work in mental health services.”
“In fairness, a considerable number of people were worried. As the Minister of State said, they were sufficiently worried to come to her on that basis. It was said to me that we could be looking at a case where someone was involuntarily admitted and then they could not get treatment. I still have a fear when we are talking about making applications to courts and to the High Court. We all know that there are issues with the Assisted Decision-Making (Capacity) Act that need to be looked at, particularly when we start putting things through a court system this is experiencing a logjam. That is necessary. What the Minister of State has spoken to regarding these amendments all sounds positive. I am not sure that we are quite where we need to be on this. As the Minister of State knows, a selling job needs to be done.”
“The Minister of State should be well used to me using flexibility. I decided that I needed to mention the fact we need to put a certain emphasis on community services. That was already mentioned by Deputy Clarke, so I apologise. I did digress. I get that we are dealing with the issue of involuntary admissions, but we were trying to flesh out how to ensure we are talking about something that is holistic. That was the idea around the biopsychosocial. It is about making sure we are taking into account all the aspects that are impacting on the person.”
“In some cases, these are early interventions at a very early stage and, as we all know, early interventions can stop us from needing those very expensive and acute services when people find themselves in real distress. It is an attempt on our behalf to address that. The Minister of State said she gets the idea of what we are attempting with this amendment. Again, we are looking for best practice. At this stage, I just have not seen any arguments why we would not embed this in the legislation at this point as opposed to going to secondary legislation.”
“This amendment is an attempt to ensure we have a holistic means of assessment. We are talking about everything that impacts on mental health issues, including the environmental, the physical and the social. It is about the idea of ensuring we are assessing everything to make sure that we are dealing with all the issues impacting on a person. As Deputy Clarke said, it is then all about ensuring we can put the best framework and best resources in play. There is no point not saying this in respect of some of the issues we have talked about throughout this entire debate: the fact is we had a scenario where we had huge institutions, and all that was wrong with them, and the promise was that we were going to introduce a community service. That is where we have to put emphasis. In a lot of cases, we should have this community service.”
“It is probably too early to ask the Minister of State about the timeline, given that we are having a preliminary discussion on the structure. Can she give a general indication? I accept that this all depends on funding. What will the structure look like in comparison with the current structure, the difficulties with which I have spoken about previously? I imagine that other medical practitioners will have to be involved at some point, particularly in the context of involuntary admissions.”
“Part of what I spoke about previously is that people could get away from the idea that they could only sign involuntary committals on the basis of someone being a threat to themselves or others at a particular moment, when there are still major mental health issues.”
“There is a doubling up on the work they carry out as social workers, psychologists and psychiatrists. Particularly in large urban areas or where they have to deal with a wider rural area, there will be requirements. We are not anticipating dealing with a huge number of people, but there have been failings. We want legislation that works and, beyond that, resources. The logical resource would be authorised officers who have the skill set and know best practice. We must ensure that whomever has to deal with them from other State services and the Garda is made aware of who has what role and how it will operate. Sometimes there is a problem with communications.”
“I do not think there will be disagreement about the Garda request for authorised officers. It is completely logical and makes sense. They will be best suited to delivering and will be utterly au fait with what is involved, which is not always the case. Some of the issues I spoke of earlier relate to the fact that not everyone is au fait with the law and with what is required. That is why I go back to the idea of a code of practice. We all heard about the CAST system or scheme - call it what you will - in Limerick. It is not to be associated with any other systems. We see this as something that works, and that is what we want to see everywhere. The Minister of State answered a question I was going to ask about my fears in relation to authorised officers.”
“I take on board what the Minister of State has said. We will put the amendment so we can amend our amendment. The big piece I want out of this is the code of practice, which would be provided to all the necessary stakeholders. Beyond that, I ask the Minister of State to look at the problem I am talking about and having something in the legislation. It could be just the need. That is sufficient at times in legislation, but I have heard too many times that the only way someone can sign this is if a person is threatening somebody else or threatening to do so something terrible to themselves. You can see what they are doing is impacting really badly on them over a continuous period but it is not an imminent threat.”
“I accept a considerable amount of what the Minister of State said. There is a significant issue in terms of getting a certain cohort committed in the first place. What will be the solution? Others and I have been dealing with people who need care and, because they were not making a direct threat to themselves or others, even following an arrest by gardaí who thought they needed to be detained and put in a mental health facility, the GPs were not willing to sign. They believed they could not sign unless there was an imminent threat. These people are causing a huge amount of harm to themselves, which everyone can see.”
“I cannot get over how some cases I have dealt with have gone on for months and then, in the end, the person is admitted involuntarily. In many circumstances, people are happy enough to go along and the GP will sign for a voluntary admission but will not sign otherwise. That also means GPs and others will need supports, structures, a framework, guidelines and a clear code of practice. Does the Minister of State accept there is a problem that needs to be dealt with? I have no problem if this circumstance is dealt with on Report Stage.”
“I am not wedded to the amendment but I am wedded to the idea that there is a problem. I assume the Minister of State accepts there is a problem. I am not sure that what is proposed in the Bill will deal with that problem. It is the small number of cases where somebody needs support and a mental health practitioner will not sign, as the practitioner is not allowed, and the Garda cannot get a GP to sign. I mentioned a code of practice, guidelines and all the rest. Sometimes, there is a need for that. Cases have been taken by the Mental Health Commission. GPs and others are working on the basis that it is only if there is an immediate threat, if the persons in question are a danger to themselves, for example, or there is a possibility they will take their own lives or are willing to injure or endanger somebody else.”
“However, if I do not see anything like that, if I cannot see anything else or any choice we have, we will have to press this amendment because we have to make the point. I am absolutely fed up - and I am not play-acting in this regard - with dealing with these issues. It is a disaster for the families, the Garda and everyone else involved in these cases.”
“As Deputy Ward and others said, the important point is that we need to get the legislation right and we need the code of practice, making sure that everyone, whether it is the Garda, those who work for the HSE or GPs, is clearly instructed as to how the law works and about the fact that there are cases where the only thing to do as regards providing someone with care is to ensure that they are involuntarily admitted on the basis that they cannot see it but everyone else can. As Deputy Clarke said, we have put into this amendment a number of safeguards. None of us is wedded to this particular amendment. We will be happy enough if the Government and the Minister of State can come back with a solution to this problem because that is all we are looking to be addressed.”
“Then, along the way, you are able to get someone who is willing to sign at that point in time. Again, though, there is the danger that is created for that person and the brutal circumstances that that creates for the family and, I imagine, even for that person when they get the treatment and hopefully move into a better place. However, they will have a whole pile of backwash from the particular way they were living that I imagine they will not be particularly happy with. I just do not think it is good enough.”
“There have been circumstances where somebody who needed treatment was not in a position to receive it. In an awful lot of cases the Garda and everybody else are attempting to get the person the treatment. I understand that doctors have to look at safeguarding, but they were saying their hands were tied and that the only way they could consider signing for involuntary admission was if we were talking about "immediate and serious harm", that is, if they were saying they were going to take action against themselves or others. We have had such instances that have gone on for months. It is usually down to good luck that nothing really brutal happens. Things get worse after a period of time. The person then does something sufficient to involve an intervention.”
“I do not even remember his name because that was the issue dealt with. The fact is that this was an issue that was not being dealt with. It involved someone who had a diagnosis and needed help and treatment and was not getting it, so the system was not working for him. There are multiple other instances, some of which I have even been dealing with lately. It took multiple arrests by the Garda. We are not talking about "immediate and serious harm", but these people were carrying out continual harm to themselves and to others. Some of it was very obvious from how their lives had gone, how they were living and other circumstances. I do not believe you could go around this Chamber and not find a great many people who would say that there is an issue out there.”
“We are talking about a very small number of people. An involuntary admission should be the last thing we look for, but there are cases where it is absolutely necessary. I will not get into the details of another case I recall, but we were dealing with somebody who had become a danger to himself and others. He had been well beyond a nuisance for a considerable time and had caused a huge number of issues in the place where he lived. I went to a community meeting and the entire community was livid. Gardaí were there. They collected all the information. They then charged him with a number of things and brought him to court. I think there was a period of custody. There was a really good judge who then stated that the only chance there would be of bail in the circumstances would be if this person were to take treatment, and he took treatment.”
“It is just not fair to people who are in a really bad set of circumstances, as I have outlined, and who are not getting treatment. I acknowledge that the intention in these proposals is to protect people's rights and that there must be safeguards. We all know about the sorry history of this State in terms of people being placed in institutions. However, sometimes the pendulum does not land in the middle where it should. That is the work we all need to do.”
“We have even seen people outside these buildings where it is obvious they need require mental health treatment but because they are not smashing things up and creating an absolute nuisance at that moment, nothing happens in terms of their being assessed and brought to a situation where they get the treatment that is necessary. I have dealt with a huge number of people in such circumstances. The situation of one such constituent is finally, after many months, being dealt with. Many people, including staff in State services, were trying to get the issue resolved but could not do so. This reflects a failure of the existing legislation and the Bill before us. The Minister of State needs either to take on this amendment or something similar.”
“Gardaí have told me that it would sometimes be preferable if such persons committed a crime and could be arrested and an assessment done while they are in custody. That is not what we want. We definitely do not want to see more people coming through the criminal justice system on that basis, but we have all seen it happening. I am asking whether there is a possibility, in any way, shape or form, that we could find a means of better dealing with circumstances where somebody is in this sort of mental health distress and needs help.”
“The vital part of this amendment is the provision to ensure that involuntary admissions happen on the basis that people require care and treatment and they do not have the capacity to make that decision for themselves. We have put gardaí and others in a really difficult circumstance in this regard. I hope the Minister of State will at least meet us halfway on this amendment. Our preference would be that she accept it. If not, I hope we can find some solution in regard to these sets of circumstances. We need a legal framework to be followed up with guidelines that are issued to all the necessary stakeholders. That is absolutely vital. We are talking about people who require care but who do not believe they require it and are in the throes of psychosis, for example.”
“From talking to people, my understanding is that, in a lot of cases, doctors are very slow to advise involuntary admission, which should be the case, but, in fact, they will only advise it if people are an imminent danger to themselves or others. I am talking about people whose lives have come apart, including everything from maintaining personal hygiene to how and where they are living. There is a pile of circumstances that shout out that there is a mental health issue or disorder. In some instances, they might already have had a diagnosis. I am afraid that what is countenanced in the Bill will not improve such situations and may even make them more difficult.”
“Many of the circumstances we are discussing we encounter in our work as TDs. I have gone to the Minister of State previously to discuss such circumstances, in which families, the Garda and others who become involved have looked for someone to be involuntarily admitted, generally on the basis that the person has some form of psychosis. Unfortunately, sometimes when GPs are called out, even following arrests under the Mental Health Act, it ends up in a situation where they will only agree to a voluntary admission. Guidelines could be helpful in such circumstances, which is why this amendment is significant. It seeks to ensure that GPs, appropriate HSE personnel and anyone else who is likely to be involved in these sorts of circumstances have access to guidance on what to do.”
“There is even the means by which assessments are made. I could talk about Dundalk, and I am aware the Minister of State met recently the Maxi’s law group. In that particular case, there is an issue with assessments not being done in accident and emergency and people being referred to Crosslanes. The problem with Crosslanes is that it is a fully operational mental health facility and, therefore, assessments are only done when a doctor is available. I am digressing from the legislation but it is not the first time I have done that in here. I support Deputy Clarke’s amendment on the basis we really need to deal with the issue that is out there at the minute. People are being failed and are unable to get the service they require and it is impacting on the health service across the board, so it is something we need to see movement on.”
“It is commendable and correct for Deputy Clarke to look to have dual diagnosis nailed into this legislation on the basis we are all constantly being given this as the reason those who need care are not getting care. It is something that needs to be addressed in a holistic way. I get that legislation is not going to sort this, but in legislation we try to ensure we have a framework that will deliver the service and at this point in time people are not getting the service. We have all known, and Deputy McAuliffe spoke about it, people who have been refused the care they need. In some cases, we have dealt with tragic circumstances and in others we have been very lucky. If you speak to those in mental health services or those dealing with cases in accident and emergency regularly, this is a real problem.”
“I imagine everybody in here to speak on this has dealt with those who have not been able to avail of mental health supports on the basis of addiction to alcohol or drugs, or both. We are talking about incredibly complex cases. I would welcome the tenor of what the Minister of State is saying, but we are dealing with too many cases where there has been an inability to provide people with the service they require for ongoing addiction, as I mentioned, but especially psychosis. An awful lot of these cases get funnelled through accident and emergency and end up creating a huge number of issues there. That is no place to deal with them from a harm reduction or even a care point of view.”
“That is the answer we need from the Minister. We have to do absolutely everything. We all know the issues we have with the occupied territories Bill without services. We all know there has been failure across Europe on delivering on the EU-Israel association agreement. I do not know how the humanitarian conditions that were put in place legally are not being infringed. We can do very few things at this point to ensure we show absolute solidarity to those who are under genocide and to make sure Israel is pointed out as the pariah state that it is. This is a small, but necessary, act and the Irish people demand that it happen.”