Seán Rogers
South Down · Social Democratic and Labour Party · Northern Ireland
“I welcome the opportunity to speak at Final Stage. Coming from South Down, which has ports such as Kilkeel, Ardglass and the neighbouring port of Portavogie, I think that we should not underestimate the importance of the fishing industry, not alone for those areas but for the wider agrifood industry and our economy in general.”
“It quickly became apparent that the Committee did not have the full authority to interrogate the Bill and, due to that, there would be no time to scrutinise the Bill in its entirety.”
“<BR /> <BR />The issues that the Bill initially tried to tackle that could not be tackled due to time constraints and relevant Committee remits still affect our current practices.”
“<BR /> <BR />Finally, regardless of what the Fisheries Bill initially intended, or what it finally became, it will still deliver a better outcome for Northern Ireland at the end of this mandate. In the end, it may not be the catch of the day, but it is a good supper.”
“Maybe that is a model for us today. <BR /> <BR />Reference has been made to the work of the AERC, its various visits and work on women in politics. The key message for me, whether it is the Assembly or local government, is that we need to be a lot more family friendly, not just for the women but for the men as well.”
“They have made a major contribution to building bridges in this land. <BR /> <BR />On a day like this — the Member opposite spoke about this as well — we have to think of women who are suffering today. We think of the women in Nigeria who were kidnapped by Boko Haram, or in refugee camps in Syria, Calais or wherever.”
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“For me, those are the key words. This is helping the Education Authority and if it, in turn, helps children, it is worth doing. <BR /> <BR />On the reduction of time limits, some respondents were concerned that the time reduction could have an adverse effect on parents, citing the difficulties in getting expert advice in a shorter time. The Department assured us that getting the extra medical information was, indeed, the Education Authority's responsibility. All that I am asking for here is a bit of flexibility. <BR /> <BR />I share the concerns of the language and speech therapists that learning support coordinators, principals and boards of governors may not have sufficient knowledge and expertise of speech and language issues to make the appropriate judgements regarding the unmet needs of the children.”
“The Minister talked about amendment No 7, and the thing that persuades me to support it is the first few words:”
“Appropriate levels of intervention for children and young people without statements may prevent them from needing a statement at a later stage and/or entering the SEN system at all, ensuring that they can fully participate in the education system.”
“The problems of a number of children who have literacy deficits could be addressed through proper eyesight tests and by wearing glasses. Such a scheme was described to the Committee by Michael Gilsenan.”
“However, if health provision for children with special educational needs is to legally bound, it follows that health professionals need to be an integral and equal part of SEN processes and planning. <BR /> <BR />I have one or two other concerns. Providing a statutory obligation within a limited budget resource poses a real risk to the provision of services for children who have additional speech and language needs but who are not statemented. We must remember that. Children with underlying receptive language difficulties are often missed or classed as difficult, and, in those cases, funding may be directed towards behavioural difficulties rather than at addressing the underlying communication needs. <BR /> <BR />Another thing comes to mind. The Committee listened to representations on the vision issue.”
“It would be nice to see the Health Department working closely together with other Departments to carry out a cost analysis or, even more importantly, a cost-benefit analysis. We all know the benefits of early intervention. <BR /> <BR />The Department argues that it has an obligation to cooperate only with statutory organisations, but where would parents be without the voluntary organisations? Some of their people made representations to us, and they are invaluable. The proposed obligation on health authorities would bring Northern Ireland's SEN framework more closely into line with the changes already enacted in England, which recognise the fundamental importance of health therapies for children with special educational needs.”
“When I spoke about duplication a few minutes ago, I mentioned it in the context of Steven Agnew's Children's Services Co-operation Bill, when it becomes law. Let us work on duplication and let us iron those things out through practice. We should not take anything for granted at this stage. <BR /> <BR />Protocols are fine, and it is nice to see them written down, and so on, but we need a better service. We need the support of the allied health professionals, but, because of the cuts that they are experiencing, that can be a problem from a health point of view. Let us face it: the present system is not working as effectively as it could be. If it were, we would not need a new Bill.”
“Are teachers expected to stretch themselves further in the new role, more challenging and demanding as it will be, while continuing to teach their classes? I would like to see the outworkings of those assurances from the Department on the role of learning support coordinators, their qualifications and the support to be provided for them. With plans come roles and responsibilities and resourcing issues. Caroline and her departmental colleagues were as open as possible on the issue, but I would like to see more detail. <BR /> <BR />The Southern Health and Social Care Trust has identified particular issues around capacity and whether its staff will be able to deliver speech therapy and other services. Earlier contributors were concerned about duplication.”
“Much of the training in the current cycle would mean a 70-mile round trip in the evening for people to attend two hours of training. It is important that, when training is being delivered, it is accessible. Maybe more use should be made of IT so that training could be delivered on a more local basis. <BR /> <BR />When we put more stress and pressure on a board of governors, that inevitably puts more stress on our overworked principals and teaching staff. There is hardly a primary school principal who has not had to cut his non-contact time because of budget pressures. Although valuable in itself, the appeals process is in danger of becoming another bureaucratic nightmare. <BR /> <BR />The change of role from being a special educational needs coordinator SENCO to a learning support coordinator is not without its problems.”
“The Minister mentioned duplication earlier. The only point that I will make about duplication is that, if they are working closely together, the Education and Health Departments will ensure that there is no duplication. There is no need for any duplication whatsoever. <BR /> <BR />Clause 3 will strengthen the duties of boards of governors around special educational needs, but who will support the governors? After all, they are very busy people who help out in our schools in a voluntary capacity. They do not always have the capacity to deliver special educational needs functions correctly. I declare an interest as the chair of the board of governors of Grange Primary School. The Department tells us that it will deliver the training.”
“It is OK for the Department or the Education Authority to think that PLPs are a good idea, but it is the teachers who must deliver them.”
“The reality is that teachers use their expertise to go the extra mile for children and, along with the boards of governors, take all those reasonable steps. <BR /> <BR />On amendment Nos 3 and 4, I think that the personal learning plan (PLP) would, if used properly, be an extremely important document. The devil is in the detail, which will become clear only in the revised code of practice. The PLP is a statutory document replacing the non-statutory individual education plans (IEPs). When children are transferring, the plan should, subject to parental agreement, transfer with them. However, lessons need to be learned from the IEP practice to ensure that PLPs do not become a bureaucratic nightmare and a burden for our teachers.”
“In some cases, the intervention is very good, but the cases arriving in our offices are those of a child who needs speech therapy and has to wait for six months or a school with 80 or 90 children and only eight hours of educational psychology support in a year. It is disappointing that provision relating to allied health professionals, occupational therapists and speech therapists will not be included in the Bill. There is a reference somewhere in the document to the role of educational psychologists, and it is reassuring that their role will not change. <BR /> <BR />I move on to clause 3. We had a lot of discussion about "best endeavours", "taking reasonable steps" and eventually agreed on "all reasonable steps".”
“The Department gave us some assurance on how the Education Authority and schools would consider the age and maturity of children with respect to special educational needs (SEN) assessment decision-making. I welcome the development of the Irish-medium sector's special educational needs coordinator (SENCO) steering group, but the Department has a responsibility to support special educational needs in the Irish-medium sector just as it has in any other school. <BR /> <BR />In clause 2, it is difficult to understand fully the quality of the plan without seeing the resourcing. You think of what happens at the moment.”
“This is a very important Bill for the children in our schools, for teachers and for the parents of children with special educational needs. At the outset, I thank a number of people: the Committee Clerk and staff for doing all the hard work for us; Caroline and her team from the Department, who were always there to answer our questions — we did not always get the answers that we wanted, but they did their best to respond; the stakeholders, whose input was very valuable; and the teachers, who do great work delivering special educational needs provision to children. <BR /> <BR />I will speak about a few of the clauses and amendments together. One of my concerns is that I would really like to see the revised code of practice.”
“I thank the Minister for that answer. Bearing in mind what you have said, Minister, have you any plans to change the scheme?”
“I thank the Minister for his answers thus far. There are many residents and staff in Oakridge, in south Down. You made an important distinction between residential care and nursing care, and the complex needs of nursing care. What extra support will be available for residential homes if they are to accommodate some of the people who will be moved from a Four Seasons home?”
“Minister, will you concede that, particularly at the beginning of the lower rate of corporation tax in 2018, there might be a fall in tax intake? Do you believe that that would have a detrimental effect on the funds available for your employability schemes and training schemes at a time when you need greater funds for those?”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. Officials at a recent Education Committee meeting said that over 50% of their costs are utility costs. Will you outline what they mean by utility costs?”
“I thank the Minister for his answers thus far. What professional opportunities are there for our teachers to upskill in literacy and numeracy and be made aware of the good practice that is out there? My concern is that many of the good projects, for example, Achieving Belfast and Achieving Derry, are not disseminated well enough.”
“I think that everybody in the House agrees that the Assembly Education Service does invaluable work. How have budget cuts affected it? How is it affecting the Assembly's outreach services in particular?”
“Thanks, Minister, for your answer. Does your Department comply with all EU regulations in the protection of fish?”
“Thanks, Minister, for your answers thus far. Minister, is there any particular grant to encourage willow production? I am thinking particularly of wood pellets as an alternative heat source.”
“I thank the Minister for that. What is his view on the proposed wind farm development in the Mournes?”
“Minister, thanks for your answers thus far. What will the total value of the fund be? Will you ensure that funding will be available to ensure the effective management of areas of outstanding natural beauty like the Mournes?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. Will the Member acknowledge that there are many schools with a faith-based ethos? I am thinking particularly of the likes of St Columbanus' College in Bangor. While it is a Catholic school, it has a large mix from right across the community. We really need to work on that to ensure that there is a better spread throughout our schools.”
“That can be delivered only by promoting a culture of mutual understanding of society here through a purposeful shared curriculum in Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />There are many opportunities in shared education that I have only touched on. The Bill offers a first step.”
“If you are to do professional development and you teach in Kilkeel or Belcoo, it is a long trip to Belfast for that professional development, so we can use ICT and so on to deliver these things online. Beyond that, we must share business and schools to ensure that our schools are tuned in to what the business world requires and understands what our schools are like. <BR /> <BR />However, it remains the case that the vast majority of children in the primary and post-primary sectors attend single-denomination schools. So we need to broaden the debate not just to sharing between Protestant and Catholic but to all section 75 groups. The SDLP envisages that sharing education will lead to more diverse opportunities for our schools, children, teachers and for senior leadership in our schools. Shared education is a priority for society here.”
“Other schools, such as my old school St Louis working with Kilkeel High and schools that have a really good mix across their school population, schools such as St Columbanus in Bangor, Down High and Strabane Academy. I could go on and on. <BR /> <BR />We had a presentation from Cross and Passion and from Ballycastle in County Antrim. The one that I have been associated with for a long time is Limavady learning partnership. However, thinking of those two in particular, part of their success has been in the culture in the schools and their geographical proximity, which helps as well. <BR /> <BR />When I talk about sharing, I think about taking it that bit further to staff sharing their expertise and professional development. We can use ICT as a great tool again there.”
“It is about children benefiting from learning together and embracing religious and cultural diversity. In turn, society will benefit from that. <BR /> <BR />It would be remiss of me if I did not acknowledge the great work that goes on in shared education at the moment. I think of the integrated sector and Shimna Integrated College in my constituency — the work that goes on in that school, and also the outreach work that it does with primary schools.”
“Furthermore, I welcome the Shared Education Bill as I hope that it will help the Department to become strategic in relation to the delivery of shared education. A number of schools that have engaged in real sharing of resources have had funding cut as a result of an apparent link to the Key Stage assessment. That is entirely counterproductive and will make the transition to shared education much more difficult. <BR /> <BR />Clause 3 of the Bill puts a statutory obligation on the Education Authority to promote education. That should benefit the strategic delivery of shared education. I suppose that when we talk about shared education, we have to think about the mutual benefits of shared education. First and foremost, it is about addressing educational underachievement and ensuring that children achieve their potential.”
“<BR /> <BR />We talk about ICT as an essential tool in shared education. The assessment of ICT will become statutory in 2016-17. That will include the use of ICT for exchange — using ICT to exchange ideas and information with others, such as partner schools. As a former teacher, and knowing how teachers work, I feel that we have a better chance of these projects coming together and working well in the classroom when shared education can work along with the requirements of ICT assessment and when teachers become more motivated by it and tuned into it. <BR /> <BR />Children will benefit when they learn the same subject together, not in different rooms of the same building. In that way, shared education that is embedded in the curriculum can be delivered without creating super-school structures.”
“<BR /> <BR />I think of the Dissolving Boundaries project and go back to my background; it is probably nearly 20 years since we were involved in that project. I remember sitting in a history lesson — it was very appropriate for the time of year — in which children from a school in Kilkeel were working with children in Taunton in Somerset on a World War I project, and the children in Taunton talked about their grandparents in the trenches. That shows how ICT can bring the sharing of education alive — not just even on a Northern Ireland basis but across our island and across Europe. <BR /> <BR />The Department has referred to supporting shared education in initial teacher education. It is not clear who will provide the funding for that or how that process will be managed. Maybe that can be addressed.”
“From the Department's response at the Committee last week, it is clear that it has ICT as an optional tool for schools to use. Given the huge investment by the Department in C2k and projects that have used ICT for inter-school links like, for example, Dissolving Boundaries, which proved how effective blended contact is, using ICT as an option is wasteful of shared public resources and is likely to mean that schools in rural areas will have difficulties in finding partners that they can work effectively with. Schools should be required to show how they plan to use ICT, not whether they intend to use it. That is important for schools that are close geographically as well as those that are far further apart.”
“It remains the case that it would not be feasible to establish projects like Lisanelly all across the North. It takes a substantial amount of money and a high threshold of local agreement. We must be realistic if we want shared education to work. We must work within our constraints. There are constraints such as rural isolation, and there are financial constraints as well. <BR /> <BR />There are many smarter ways that we can achieve meaningful sharing in classrooms. The sharing of IT infrastructure already exists within schools in Northern Ireland. I am somewhat disappointed that the Department has not really taken on board the definition of shared education that the Committee agreed, which was:”
“I welcome the opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Second Stage of the Bill. The SDLP is broadly supportive of the Bill. Our schools need to move more and more towards models of sharing — sharing expertise, resources, facilities and educational experiences. <BR /> <BR />It is clear for the SDLP that principles of shared education must be firmly embedded in the curriculum. It is about more than schools coming together for an annual sports tournament or a walk up the Mournes. Shared education must be deep, meaningful and sustained. Clause 2 of the Bill is particularly important in that regard. Shared education can be delivered in many forms. It can range from large-scale projects at Lisanelly to the sharing of particular resources within specific classes.”
“I agree that the professional qualification for headship is an important qualification. What practical help is there for newly appointed principals in developing their budget skills; in particular, things like mentoring or coaching by experienced principals?”
“The stagnation on this issue has gone on far too long and is preventing higher education outcomes, equality of opportunity and our economy from flourishing.”
“We must deal with the heavy bureaucracy in the education system, where less than 60% of the education budget actually gets to the classrooms. <BR /> <BR />The SDLP envisages a system that is focused not just on exams but on a rounded education for our children and on parental choice of integrated, Irish-medium, state or faith-based education through the provision of appropriate access for all pupils. We are committed to achieving social equity in education through excellence. It remains the case that academic selection at age 11 is educationally unsound and socially unjust. A reassessment of patterns of investment in education is required to remove the high levels of inequality in the education system. This is of crucial importance for the development of our economy too, as a well-educated workforce underpins any thriving economy.”
“Teachers, too, have been placed under contradictory pressures from the Department, which does not want them teaching to a test, and from some parents who want their children to be prepared for and to pass a test because they have the best interests of the child at heart. <BR /> <BR />Many of the problems in the current education system do not stem from the 11-plus alone. Inequalities are produced at the early stages of the education system and children who fall behind in early years rarely recover the lost ground. In dealing with the post-primary transfer system, we must make sure that our education system is adequately funded and we must support early years education in order to address educational underachievement and prevent the widening inequalities that are aided by the current education system.”
“We, too, can strive to make changes for the better but we must agree a way forward to end the current system of unregulated transfer tests. <BR /> <BR />The current system, including private tests, fees and coaching, puts additional pressure on children and families from socially deprived backgrounds. Many children now have to sit two or more tests, often comprising multiple papers. This also affects our primary schools. We know that parents, when considering which primary school to send their children to, will often look to see whether tutoring is provided for the local school transfer test.”
“<BR /> <BR />In 2015, the Department of Education issued guidance in which unregulated transfer exams were mentioned. While the Department urges a robust test and a move away from academic selection, this amounts to a nagging approach rather than real authority to deal with the problem. The legislative power to provide such an approach does not exist as we have not agreed the way forward. <BR /> <BR />We know the great strides that can be made if consensus is achieved. We can look to Finland as a sterling example of this. In 1963, they decided to reform their education process and began a period of transition and structural reform, backed up by political will. This meant that, by 2009, they led the world's educational attainment tables.”
“Leadership and political maturity are required to solve the post-primary transfer issue and prevent worsening outcomes for children here. <BR /> <BR />Let us look at some of the problems with unregulated tests. Academic selection at age 11 is still in place here and lacks uniformity. As a result, children, parents and teachers are forced to endure months of uncertainty about the future. Testing has become privatised in schools and parents have to pay. Those who can afford it are having their children coached for the exams privately. Who do we blame? They are trying to make the best out of the current system for their children, and it is the system that is the problem. We, as parents, always want to do the best for our children.”
“I welcome the opportunity to contribute to the debate as the SDLP's spokesperson on education. It is a very important debate that concerns many families each year as their children prepare for educational life beyond primary school. The motion rightly refers to the fact that we have not yet found solutions to the post-primary transfer problem. Currently, an unregulated system operates that, in some cases, is much more arduous than the previous system. We need to do something about it. <BR /> <BR />The SDLP, alongside others in this House, attempted to achieve resolution of the problem in 2009-2010, but an agreed solution could not be found. The origins of the chaos and the resultant failure to deal with the issue have led to a "plague on all our houses" attitude and approach to the issue in this House.”
“Minister, what discussions have you had with other members of the Executive to improve decision-making in other Departments on rural proofing? I am thinking particularly about residential homes. When I look at the consultation, I see little emphasis placed on the rural-proofing aspect.”
“I thank the Minister for that. Minister, there is a frustration among the good people who live in that estate that the protocols are not nearly as robust as they were when it was the Housing Executive and the PSNI. What lessons have been learned from the previous protocols? How can it be tightened?”
“I commend the progress that the Environment Minister has made so far, but I believe that community and environmental organisations, such as Beach NI and Keep Northern Ireland Beautiful, remain vital in helping to guide the population to accept and champion that approach. Above all, improving our beaches is everyone's responsibility.”
“<BR /> <BR />The good thing about today's debate is that it brings the matter to the attention of the public. Certainly, more needs to be done, but I believe that, for real change to occur, we must reiterate the importance of our collective responsibility to look after our beaches. Community engagement and greater education are crucial in raising awareness of the damage that litter can cause. I commend the many schools and community groups that get involved in beach clean-ups. Locals and businesses alike have a duty to respect our beaches and dispose of rubbish in a responsible and ethical manner.”
“It is vital that programmes such as Litter Less, Bag it and Bin it, and Live Here, Love Here are supported so that we can reclaim those areas. <BR /> <BR />The extent of rubbish can be alarming, but the Keep Northern Ireland Beautiful survey noted that the winter storms were partially to blame for dumping large quantities of litter on our shores. In a recent survey, a French road sign was found along the beach, indicating that a significant amount of the litter comes from the seas around Britain and further afield. It is vital that litter deposits in the marine environment are extracted and reduced. It is unfortunate that such rubbish deposits exist, and a new emphasis on joint approaches to rubbish disposal across these islands and Europe may be required.”
“In places such as Cranfield, we have to look after the tourists, but, in the management of our beaches, car parking and so on, we also have to look after residents. <BR /> <BR />Mr Hazzard referred to littering, and it is a blight on the natural beauty of any environment. The key aim for all beaches should be cleanliness. The Keep Northern Ireland Beautiful marine litter survey is alarming for certain parts of our coastline. Ballyhornan, as he mentioned, is a clear cause for concern, as are the litter and waste on beaches near fishing harbours such as Ardglass and Kilkeel. The survey also noted litter dumps near some of our leading beaches, which demonstrates the clear threat of waste to our beach health and industries.”