John McCallister
South Down · Ulster Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“She did whatever needed to be done and nothing seemed to be too much trouble or too difficult for her to overcome. <BR /> <BR />It was very much to her credit that she was able to work and find a solution to an issue that, as we go forward, will allow us to look at different things.”
“Sometimes, one of the downsides of being in politics is that social media exposes all our lives to some really quite harsh and unkind things. I certainly am delighted that things have improved in that regard, not only with getting the Bill passed but with your father's health improving.”
“Like colleagues, I welcome the Final Stage of the Licensing Bill. Following on from Mr Ross, it is a shame that Mrs Cochrane is standing down because we could desperately do with her back here to continue the reform of our licensing laws, although that is looking like quite a big job for anybody to take on.”
“It would have been such a shame to have to have him removed on his last day. <BR /> <BR />Mr Speaker, I will begin by paying tribute to you and the respect agenda you have set in your time in the Speaker's office.”
“<BR /> <BR />In this term, I am particularly proud of the private Member's Bill to reform the way that the Assembly does its business, and I hope that the messages from all of the political parties seem to be that there is a will to have a much more collective and cohesive Executive on the other side of an election.”
“While there is partly a disappointment in some regards about what the Assembly and Executive have achieved, the one thing that they have achieved is to have got people talking from very different and difficult backgrounds. As Mr Hamilton said, it is much better having a robust debate in here than division on our streets.”
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“<BR /> <BR />In the lead-up to that election, parties and the apparatus of government might start to look at manifestos, think who would form a likely Administration and, after an election, a coalition might come together to agree a Programme for Government and be bound by collective responsibility. Instead, what we have in politics is the endless silo mentality, not only of the structure of our government, but of our politics. Silo because our Departments think in silos — politics make them think that way. We think in our silos of a unionist versus nationalist bloc on every occasion. Instead, we should be looking at a Government and an opposition to hold them to account.”
“At times, I feel that I am almost one of the few unionists in this Building who actually proudly says that I voted yes in 1998, and I have never changed my mind.. Does that mean that we want these institutions to be somehow frozen in time? Absolutely not. It was always envisaged that they would evolve. However, the broad principles of that agreement, about genuine power-sharing and inclusivity, are those that I voted for and still agree with and adhere to. It is about how we deliver that normalisation of our politics, where parties present costed, realistic manifestos before an election.”
“We have come to the point at which, in effect, we either reform the Assembly or it will fail. I do not say that lightly. We have been teetering on the edge for months; this is not the first crisis that we have hit. Rather than the political adage of "crisis, what crisis?" we seem to hear more of crisis, which crisis? That is because we are never quite sure which crisis will bring us down. Will we make it through to the end of the mandate? We have to be about much more than just surviving. We were told in 2011 that this was the term of delivery for the Assembly. We had survived 2007 to 2011, and this had to be the term of delivery. <BR /> <BR />We all know the reason why the Assembly and these institutions are here: they were born out of the Belfast/Good Friday Agreement.”
“A key message has to be about getting stability. A key motivation for me in pushing the Bill and moving it has been about delivering good governance that leads to political stability and tackling all the issues that we have to tackle and that many Members feel passionately about. Those include delivering social justice in our most deprived communities and tackling educational underachievement and economic inactivity. We are not doing any of that or delivering on any of those.”
“<BR /> <BR />One of the key drivers in delivering a much better economic performance is delivering political stability. I quote Kevin Kingston, a past president of the Northern Ireland Chamber of Commerce and Industry, who said:”
“Much has been said, and this is the chance to see what can be done about it. There is a chance, with this Bill, to truly reform. <BR /> <BR />First of all, I want to set out some of the reasons — the very real reasons — why we need the Assembly and Executive Reform (Assembly Opposition) Bill. You would need to have been living abroad for a considerable time not to think that the Assembly and the Executive could do their business better. We only have to listen to the words of the First Minister, the joint head of the Administration, who, in the past, has described them as "dysfunctional". At times, we have brought that level of dysfunctionality to an industrial scale. Where are we on the big issues of welfare, hospitals, Transforming Your Care, funding our universities, or the business community, which is crying out for leadership?”
“Much has been said about Government and opposition in this place and many others for a long number of years, probably since these institutions were set up. I know that the deputy First Minister was — as perhaps even you were, Mr Speaker — a fan of the late, great Seamus Heaney. I will start with a quote from Seamus Heaney:”
“It is good to hear that UKIP's maths are as sharp as ever. <BR /> <BR />It is a brilliant achievement that has truly united us all. There is a great sense of pride in who we are and where we come from. There is excitement and a buzz around. I would certainly be delighted if the Republic of Ireland qualified, too. It would be great to see them making the cut and getting to the finals. <BR /> <BR />Of course, as many other Members said, I wish the Ireland rugby team every success in their upcoming matches. It is great to see. The Rugby World Cup has been so exciting to watch up to now, and I am sure that that will continue.”
“It is great when we have an occasion to truly celebrate tremendous sporting achievements. What a fabulous four or five days of sport we have had, with victories to watch. As, I think, Mr Agnew highlighted, the last time Northern Ireland qualified, I was a 14-year-old boy, so it has been quite a long wait to have that again —”
“I would like to associate myself with the words of the deputy First Minister in sending expressions of condolence to the families affected by events in the Republic. They were truly horrific. Earlier this year, my neighbour perished in a house fire and, certainly, it was a very harrowing scene. Coupled with that, as a father of very young children, to hear of the loss of so many young children is just heartbreaking. Certainly, the support that we as a society can offer is important at this time. I certainly would want to be associated with those remarks and with extending sympathies, to all those affected, whether in Ankara or, indeed, in County Louth.”
“I want to see that changed round and us maximising the huge potential of credit unions. I want to see the asset base that they are sitting on being maximised for the good of our economy, whether it is in small businesses, individual social enterprises or whatever it happens to be for communities. Let us free up and unleash the potential of our credit unions. <BR /> <BR />The Bill is a good step along that way, and I look forward to its passage through the Assembly. I am very pleased to support it at its Second Reading.”
“As someone who was farming in a business partnership with two, or maybe three, names on an account, I ask why we could not do the same with credit unions. I hope that the Minister, in his response, will signal a willingness — he may well have a very good reason — to debate this issue and look at any possible amendments that he, the Committee or, indeed, individual Members of the House might bring forward. <BR /> <BR />This is a very real issue, and I do not want to see anything that in any way hamstrings our credit unions. I want to see them being involved. I also want to see the need for people to very much face the sharp end of the market when having to go and borrow money being very much reduced. Mr Dallat talked about having more savings than borrowings.”
“For, in particular, capital-intensive sectors like agriculture, which is my background, this is very welcome, although, right enough, the price of milk is still stuck at 1980s prices. Perhaps we could see what we could do about that. It is welcome, and it can make a difference. When we look at some of the facts and figures around this, we see that when farmers pool significant sums of money in cooperatives they can reap benefits, maybe as much as £9 for every £1 contributed. That is a huge add-on value, and it has to be welcomed. <BR /> <BR />So, I am pleased to see the Bill. It will be interesting to listen to the Minister's response, particularly to the points raised by Mr Flanagan and others around the names; whether we use a corporate name or the names of individuals.”
“<BR /> <BR />I just want to briefly comment on some bits. I welcome clause 9 on reducing the age from 18 to 16. I think that any engagement that gets people to think, register, and be involved in managing money, and face up to their responsibilities at a younger age, is a good thing. I am a huge believer in the need for people, even at a young age, to think about retirement, even though that seems to be many years off. We are at a stage now where we have to start thinking about these things at a much younger age. <BR /> <BR />I also welcome the fact that the share capital will rise from £20,000 to £100,000. That is welcome, given that, as I think Mr Lunn pointed out, it has been in place for 24 years.”
“I begin by congratulating the Minister and welcoming him to his office. I think he is vastly superior to his predecessor, and, hopefully, his term of office will be slightly longer. <BR /> <BR />I was keen to contribute to the debate because I recognise the huge value of our credit unions throughout Northern Ireland, which colleagues have spoken about. Mr Dallat highlighted some of the history of the credit union movement. I think that its contribution has been immeasurable in getting people — who would not have had access in any other format — in and connected with saving, borrowing and managing money. <BR /> <BR />Mr Agnew was very critical of our banking sector, which, even from a business perspective, has looked very much like a fair-weather friend at times over the last number of years.”
“Many of us speak about early interventions, but we do not seem to be able to deliver them. <BR /> <BR />I wish Mr Agnew well on the passage of the Bill at this stage. I will certainly be voting in support of him and his advice on these amendments.”
“There is an onus and an emphasis on political parties to come up with agreed policy agendas and not always be passing the buck. I have heard others, including Mr Attwood, who talked about child poverty figures, always looking to London and blaming what is happening there and what other Governments are doing, sometimes forgetting that he is in a party that is in the Government. It is incumbent on all those who hold office in the Executive arm of the Assembly to formulate agreed Government policy to tackle the very issues that Mr Agnew wants to see tackled and that his Bill is driving to do through having a collective approach to dealing with children and young people's issues and services. It is about how best to get those innovative policy advancements, instead of always cutting those services at the very times we need them the most.”
“<BR /> <BR />I think that the Chair of the Committee made a point about the lack of sanctions, and that is a worry to me, given the nature of our government and how good it is at delivering on things. Do we need to look at and seriously think about whether we build in some form of sanction if government does not measure up to this? Almost the only recourse available is taking Departments to court to try to exercise that. Is there some other sanction or mechanism that we can use? <BR /> <BR />On the broader policy debate that we have had around the amendments to the Bill in this Consideration Stage, I think that, as Mr Agnew touched on in his opening remarks, there is a huge onus on how this place does its business and the actual ability of an Executive to formulate an agreed policy agenda.”
“It is no secret that I have long been an advocate of the councils, particularly with their new powers of community planning, all developing a play park strategy. I would like to see much more emphasis on the importance of that and local government trying to deliver. I am a little concerned about how those aims would be measured, and I would like some ideas from Mr Agnew on how he sees that. Are we creating something in legislation that, quite frankly, we may not ever be able to achieve, as laudable as the goal and the anticipation of it might be? <BR /> <BR />I, like Mr Beggs, welcome the Member's not moving amendment No 5, which is to insert a new clause. It will be interesting to see at Further Consideration Stage what the work that he has done on that has developed into and what it looks like.”
“I am slightly concerned how government would measure such a thing. I welcome the reference to:”
“Thank you, Deputy Speaker. Normally, when people assure the House that they are not going to take long, they usually go on and do exactly that. I think that, on this occasion, I can say with some degree of certainty that I will not take long. <BR /> <BR />First, I congratulate Mr Agnew on the work that he has put into the Bill and for the engagement generally around getting the Bill to this stage. I welcome, of course, some of the change in direction that the Bill has taken during its Committee Stage that is coming out here at Consideration Stage. I have a few points that may be useful, and I apologise for not being able to stay for the first part of Mr Agnew's winding-up speech. I note the references to "economic and environmental well-being" and:”
“I beg to introduce the Assembly and Executive Reform (Assembly Opposition) Bill [NIA62/11-16], which is a Bill to provide for the formation of an Assembly Opposition; to provide for the passing of an Assembly and Executive Reform Motion; to reform the Assembly and the Executive; and to provide that all Northern Ireland Departments are a single legal entity.”
“I will be very quick. I am grateful to the Member. I absolutely agree that we should get it if England gets it, but should the same not apply to welfare?”
“As pointed out, and I know this from having three young children under the age of five, the cost of childcare is pretty enormous. At the end of the month, it is the biggest bill that we face. How do we tailor this so that it gets to the families whom it will impact on the most, namely, the more vulnerable, the lower paid and those who need support in developing as best they can? That is vital as we look at what the policy should do and at where we spend the money of the Executive.”
“Miss McLaughlin mentioned nought-to-three years, but many studies say that you might start intervening and helping women and families as early as 20 weeks of pregnancy. That way, you are working with families and identifying those who need the support. That is what we should be looking at. At a time when money is tight and we are not facing up to the difficult decisions, we need to look at that. When you set it in the context of the challenges that we face, the families who suffer most from the scourge of poverty and paramilitarism are from many of our working-class communities. To tackle educational underachievement in Protestant and Catholic working-class communities, we need to be intervening early across the board and looking at tailoring this policy. <BR /> <BR />I support the broad principles of the policy.”
“Even when the House of Lords Committee looked at the issue, it found that reprioritising spending on early intervention and childcare to focus on disadvantaged children had a bigger impact on moving parents back into the workplace. That comes back to some of the points that Miss McLaughlin made about early intervention, and she quoted the figure of 6% of spend. That is exactly the point that I made in the welfare debate: we ignore all of the early intervention best practice from around the world. That is why I was so critical of some of the mitigation measures: early intervention is what we need to be doing. Right across government, whether in health or education, early intervention is where we can make a difference. <BR /> <BR />We can tailor the policies to intervene early.”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I am grateful to Mrs Kelly for that point. Looking at that and the social investment fund, we can see that our Executive are not exactly great at spending or being in control of what they have. <BR /> <BR />I remind colleagues that, in Westminster terms, the Institute for Fiscal Studies looked at this policy. It stated:”
“<BR /> <BR />So far in this debate we have largely talked about all the benefits this policy might bring, without any sense of realism about where we are and what we face, the difficult decisions on welfare that we have not wanted to face up to or to take.”
“In this Building, a week is a long time in politics, never mind a few months. It seems strange that, after all the warnings about George Osborne's Budget, it is now held up almost as an example. Our difficulty, of course, is that this is set against the backdrop of all the other issues that our Executive have to face. There is no decision yet on welfare and no decision — not even any real debate — about things like tuition fees, water charges or prescriptions, and yet we are looking at asking for more money or increasing our share of the Barnett consequential. If we got that money, what would we use it for? Would we make these decisions, or would we continue to pay penalties on welfare? These are all things that we have to face.”
“It would be an easy way to reduce the pressures on farmers' cash flow.”
“I welcome the Minister's statement. Looking round the Chamber, I did not realise that abstentionism was so contagious. <BR /> <BR />In her answers to Mr Byrne and Mr Kennedy, the Minister acknowledged that cash flow was tremendously important. Sorry, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker; I should declare my interest or draw Members' attention to the fact that I am a farmer, a recipient of single farm payment and a member of the Ulster Farmers' Union. In terms of cash flow and the discussions that she had with the banks, which she mentioned in her reply to Mr Kennedy, were there specific discussions about capital holidays for farmers? Is that an idea? I know that the farmers' unions have certainly pressed the idea. Is it one that would garner her support? If so, will she continue to make that point?”
“That will happen when you normalise politics and bring forward the issues that are important to people — jobs, schools, hospitals; all of those things — instead of always going for the lowest common denominator in politics. A Government and opposition helps to provide that as it creates scrutiny of the Government, provides choice for the electorate and normalises politics when we start to debate issues. It is not a matter of who can jockey for position more impressively than the other. That is why it is important and why my Bill will, I hope, make a contribution.”
“All of that leads to a very dysfunctional system. <BR /> <BR />I congratulate Ms Sugden on bringing forward this matter of the day. I detect from many people in my constituency that, while they are frustrated with these institutions and the speed of decision-making, they desperately want to see it working, and they want to see everyone putting their shoulder to the wheel and making it work. That is the difficulty with the talks process and knowing when something is agreed. We saw that last year with the Stormont House Agreement; it was agreed and then, suddenly, parties were barely out the door until some people were not happy with it and others objected to it. <BR /> <BR />We need to get a collective agreement and get on with the business of governing and delivering for people.”
“I hope that, once my Bill has cleared legal advice, it will, very shortly, come to the Floor of the House and give each and every Member of the Assembly a chance to form an opposition and look at how we can change the way we do our politics here. I have often made the argument that we have almost too much peace process and too little government here. We need to get on with the business of government. Those who are charged with that, the Executive Ministers, need to get on and make decisions, work in a collective way and present a collective Programme for Government that has the best interests of all our people at its heart. We have Ministers who can sue each other and take each other to court. We have Ministers who want to do things but are blocked and we have the politics of the mutual veto.”
“That challenge comes to the CCMS as well as to the transferors to ask how do we build on the best that is in our education system, share it, use it and make sure that we can have joint-ethos schools, joint-faith schools, with boards of governors and teachers right across the board? How do we share and maximise the benefits of shared education?”
“I welcome the Minister's statement from a number of months ago about joint-faith schools. I think that is important. To almost tackle the elephant in the room, the biggest challenges in sectoral terms is probably to the maintained sector. Those who want to maintain a faith-ethos education have to get on board with shared education. Mr Agnew went over it very briefly and talked about moving to some sort of secular system, and I know that some people might favour that, but the challenge is for those who, like me, want to maintain a faith-based ethos in our education system.”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I am grateful to Mr Weir for his brief intervention. I agree with the premise that we need to look at it. The report usefully talked about the evidence that was collated from that super-mix model, as it has been referred to. It will be important for the Minister to respond today on where his Bill is on shared education. Is he hoping to get it through in this mandate? He is rapidly running out of time to give it the type of scrutiny that I think it will require. The definition that he will put in will be very important. <BR /> <BR />On Mr Weir's point about how you use that super-mix model and what has worked well in those schools and what has not worked so well, we also need to extend that not just to schools but to boards of governors to look at shared ethos.”
“You have actually built into some of those schools — Mr Newton cited Methodist College — a very organic level of integration that works. How do we use those models? How do we hold the excellence that we have in schools? How do we extend that ethos base?”
“You would have difficulty doing that, as you might have in delivering a fully integrated model in parts of Lisburn, Newtownards or Bangor. <BR /> <BR />How do we get from where we are today to where we would like to be? I see shared education as the vehicle to do that. I see it as the vehicle because it gives parental choice. It protects faith-ethos education, which I want to see protected. It gives you the choice of having, at times, much more organic integration. Some of the figures — I accept that it is a survey from a couple of years ago — show that, in Down High, an estimated 60% of the pupils were from a Protestant background, 24% were from a Catholic background and 16% were from either other or none. Belfast Royal Academy (BRA) was 56% Protestant, 25% Catholic and 18% other or none.”
“I would like to welcome the Committee's report. It is always useful to have reference to an amendment that I pushed for when the Education Authority Bill was going through. That was the reason. I believe that shared education can be that vehicle, although I accept others' arguments about integrated education. The fact is that we are still at only around 6% or 7%, despite poll after poll showing that there is a need. We have to look at where our education system is now. Why are so many parents opting for a faith-ethos education? You have Mr McCrea's point that in some of our towns and cities it would actually be very difficult to have a fully integrated system. That is the case in places at the edge of my own constituency in Newry city.”
“How will the Executive not meeting help to deal with the very issues that he mentions?”
“What dangers will be faced by those who are left behind? How do we respond to that? How does the world deal with that in a part of the world that has had so many problems for so many years? People have talked about intervention and its difficulties, but Syria is one place that the UK Parliament voted not to intervene in. Looking at where the bulk of these people are moving from is something for another day and a longer-term strategy. It is about how we deal with the here and now, and that will bring out the very best in each and every citizen in our country as we all try to respond and do something to provide support at a practical level.”
“There is a yearning to do something and to respond to this. <BR /> <BR />The wider issues will not be solved today. We have a huge humanitarian crisis on Europe's doorstep, and it is about how Europe and the world respond to that. How much aid? How many refugees can they take in, and how much need can be met?”
“Like others have said, not only in this country but around the world, that photo certainly seems to have shocked the world into action. I have a three-year-old son who is the same age as that wee boy. The difference in their circumstances, as Mr Swann highlighted, depends on where they happened to be born and are living. One lives in a modern, wealthy, affluent nation where a three-year-old goes to nursery school. The other fled and tragically drowned trying to get to a better life. That has rightly shocked our nation and the world into action. There is a longing out there in that everyone wants to do something, whether that is in a very personal, quiet way by providing either financial or practical support that they can send out in aid, which brings out the good in everyone across our country.”
“I think that that has been remarkable, and, indeed, the entire royal family has made a contribution to looking at issues of the past and how we might deal with and move through those issues. I think that they have been a tremendous example to us all, and perhaps if we had taken more of the Queen's advice, of Prince Charles's advice and maybe even the advice of the Queen's grandfather, George V, we might be in a much better place. That is something that I want to associate myself with, and I wish the Queen every success. God save the Queen.”
“In the change in our society and the change in our world throughout that time — the continuing shift that started from Empire to Commonwealth — the Queen's enduring steadfastness in carrying out her role and her duties in those 63 and a half years has been remarkable. That is rightly highlighted today in the Assembly, with all of the difficulties that the Assembly and our Executive face. <BR /> <BR />Mr Maginness made the point about the remarkable visit to Dublin, and I had occasion to attend one of the events down there. The symbolism of the change in the dynamic in the relationships between the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland was truly cemented with that visit.”
“This is a phenomenal woman who, in the 1940s, served her country during the Second World War and vowed at that time to continue to serve, whether her life be long or short. Thankfully, she has been blessed with a very long and healthy life to bring her and our nation to this remarkable milestone of over 63 and a half years on the throne. <BR /> <BR />As Mr Allister said in opening this matter of the day, most Members of the House were born during the current reign. In fact, of the 12 Prime Ministers who have served during the reign, two, including the current one, were born after the Queen succeeded to the throne. That is a remarkable length of time.”
“I, too, associate myself with the comments from right around the Chamber in wishing Her Majesty well, reflecting on the length of her reign.”
“I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. My point relates to Mr Attwood's point about blaming the Conservative Government for bad faith for bringing a Budget on 8 July. When the SDLP first walked away from the Stormont House Agreement, which I suggest was some time round Christmas Eve, the day after it was agreed; voted against the first Budget in January or February time; voted against welfare reform all the way through; signed the petition of concern against welfare reform and finally killed it off, who backed out of the Stormont House Agreement first: the SDLP or the UK Government?”
“<BR /> <BR />I come back to the point that I made last week: if you have a better way of doing welfare reform and a better way of raising revenue, bring your proposals here and bring them to the Executive table. Present them at next year's election and say how you would plug the gap in our finances and if you think that public spending should increase. The idea that the only policy tool in the cabinet is that the Brits should send us more money has to be got over. We should have an Administration here that can actually lead and govern, and, if you do not want to reform and if you do not want to govern, get out of the Government and make way for somebody who wants to get on with the necessary reform and be part of the necessary government to lead and improve the lives of our citizens and deliver a proper balanced Budget.”