John McCallister
South Down · Ulster Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“She did whatever needed to be done and nothing seemed to be too much trouble or too difficult for her to overcome. <BR /> <BR />It was very much to her credit that she was able to work and find a solution to an issue that, as we go forward, will allow us to look at different things.”
“Sometimes, one of the downsides of being in politics is that social media exposes all our lives to some really quite harsh and unkind things. I certainly am delighted that things have improved in that regard, not only with getting the Bill passed but with your father's health improving.”
“Like colleagues, I welcome the Final Stage of the Licensing Bill. Following on from Mr Ross, it is a shame that Mrs Cochrane is standing down because we could desperately do with her back here to continue the reform of our licensing laws, although that is looking like quite a big job for anybody to take on.”
“It would have been such a shame to have to have him removed on his last day. <BR /> <BR />Mr Speaker, I will begin by paying tribute to you and the respect agenda you have set in your time in the Speaker's office.”
“<BR /> <BR />In this term, I am particularly proud of the private Member's Bill to reform the way that the Assembly does its business, and I hope that the messages from all of the political parties seem to be that there is a will to have a much more collective and cohesive Executive on the other side of an election.”
“While there is partly a disappointment in some regards about what the Assembly and Executive have achieved, the one thing that they have achieved is to have got people talking from very different and difficult backgrounds. As Mr Hamilton said, it is much better having a robust debate in here than division on our streets.”
The complete record
Every one of 975 lines we hold for John McCallister, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 7 of 20.
“<BR /> <BR />However, you come back to the big challenges: what are the barriers to truly sharing and to having those models that Mr Rogers talked about in Bangor, Portstewart or Belfast? I suggest that in some areas, it is the diversity of the teaching staff, the diversity of the intake, making sure that people from a different faith, or no faith, feel welcome and can get the benefits of the pastoral care that is very recognisable in some of those schools, and making sure that they get all of the educational advantages. How do we get all of that in? How do we open up those schools and, effectively, free them and many of our parents into feeling that they can look at schools from a different community background as a realistic option to send their children to?”
“I am grateful, as always, to Mr Rogers for that point. We have some brilliant examples, whether St Columbanus' College in Bangor, Methody in Belfast or Dominican College up in Portstewart. I think that Mr Lunn mentioned Cross and Passion College in Ballycastle. Sadly, however, as the figures suggest, we remain in the mid- to high 90s in percentage terms of those of us who are being educated in schools that have the same religious or community background as ourselves. We have some brilliant examples for the Minister to model on and to look at how we do that around Northern Ireland. I applaud those schools for doing it. I like that model because it is organic and natural, and it is happening without forcibly bringing people together. That is something to be welcomed.”
“You will have to look at diversity on your boards of governors. You will also have to look at diversity in your teaching staff and the barriers that they face. Mrs Overend mentioned the barriers for teaching staff. All those things can make a huge contribution in how you tackle genuine sharing.”
“I absolutely accept that point. Not only do you have generational dependency on welfare and benefits but you need to give an education to help to get people out of that poverty trap. This is why, in the past, I have been critical of some of the Minister's cuts to early intervention. All that stuff contributes dramatically to improving outcomes for our children and their eventual participation in the wider economy. It is absolutely critical, and the point is well made as to how we would do that and actually start to share. <BR /> <BR />The big challenge, of course, is to those in the Catholic maintained sector who want, as I do, to maintain a faith/ethos education. They do not want a secular education and want to maintain their ethos. It is about how you open it up. How do you get a much more diverse intake into a school?”
“Some Church of England and Roman Catholic schools in England are even setting targets for admissions of 25% to 30% from other faiths or no faith. Why are parents in other parts of the country choosing that? It is because the standards are there.”
“I am quite sure that Members, the Committee and the Chair will want to work with the Minister, and I am sure that the Minister will be keen to engage. <BR /> <BR />The big challenge for CCMS and the Catholic Church is how they open up those schools to others. As Mr Lunn said, how do we use that expertise, knowledge and ethos? How do we share it and help to raise standards across our school system? The societal benefits that flow from that are of great benefit to us, but education is the key priority. If we get that, the challenge that I put down to, broadly, the Catholic Church and the maintained sector is this: how do you make your schools more receptive to people from other faiths and none? We have models, and we do not have to look that far to other parts of our country.”
“I agree with Mr Lunn that there is an opportunity. If some of the criteria need to be changed, then that is what the Committee Stage and Consideration Stage are for.”
“What are they doing and giving in that ethos-based education that other schools need to replicate? We should be sharing and lifting all boats in a rising tide. That is what we need to do.”
“Diversity enhances and enriches our lives, and we should cherish it. <BR /> <BR />It is also a great vehicle for providing parental choice, where parents can choose the model of education they would like to have. To those who say that we should go entirely integrated and secular in education, I say, "You are limiting parental choice by doing that." You are also trying to pretend that the Catholic Church, the CCMS or the Transferor Representatives' Council should be out of existence. That is not where we are. That view also denies the fact that faith-ethos education outperforms other types of education. If we look at the list of the best performing schools, Catholic grammar schools are amongst the best and I think that the top 10 non-selective secondary schools are all in the maintained sector.”
“Mr Allister quite rightly mentioned that in England they are retreating from some of the comprehensive models, but they are looking at specialist schools. Could we have other schools — vocational schools — that specialise, whether it is in sport or music, and lift the standard? <BR /> <BR />You have various models that advocate totally integrated schools. That is much more of a worry and much more of a Trojan Horse towards a one-size-fits-all model. The people who argue for it may want to create some sort of beige-coloured society where we are all the same and of the one ability. That is not life. Diversity and pluralism make up our community in Northern Ireland, and we should celebrate that because it enriches all our society, right across not only to Northern Ireland but the entire United Kingdom and indeed the British Isles.”
“The Member knows my views on creating social mobility and, of course, education is one of the greatest assets we can give people. One of the greatest advantages we can give our young people to get them economically active is a proper and decent education. That way, they get a start in life and do not get trapped on welfare. It ties in with so much of our policy agenda, and it is crucial that we get it right. So, I do not fear giving people from poorer backgrounds some advantages through access to better schools, widening the curriculum choice and sharing what we need to share. There is no Trojan Horse here. <BR /> <BR />My commitment is the same as that of many others, namely to have grammar schools that perform very well. I would also like to see us using other models in which schools can specialise.”
“I am grateful to Mr Weir for that, and I agree with his point. It has long been established that we have a huge job to do in our education system, especially to deal with the huge failing in Protestant working-class areas and across the board in all working-class areas where our education system is not delivering.”
“It cannot be. The very definition of having to share means that you must have different systems and sectors. It may be desirable to go to a single education system, if you want a very much one-size-fits-all approach to education. I think that Mr Flanagan said, at the start of the debate, that this may not be where you would start if you had a blank canvas, but we are where we are in education terms.”
“<BR /> <BR />I agree with one point made by Mr Allister, which was that educational outcomes should be the main objective of this. However, by sharing, you hope to give access to the best schools and the best teachers and to broaden the curriculum. That is what you want to do. I hope that the Minister's policy and aspirations for the Bill are about that: extending choice and giving kids from various backgrounds the opportunity to share and have a curriculum that they would not otherwise be able to take advantage of. That is the essence of the Bill and, for me, its importance. <BR /> <BR />I give the Minister notice that I may think of amending the Bill when it comes back from Committee Stage. Of course there are things that I want included. However, the Bill is not a Trojan Horse for some sort of all-embracing comprehensive system.”
“Thank you, Mr Speaker. I hope to finish at 1.00 pm or possibly before it. <BR /> <BR />In opening my contribution to the debate, I will say that I welcome the Bill in the context that I proposed the amendments that put it in the Bill that established the Education Authority. I suppose there are several options that we could look at that people have produced around education and where we may go on these things. Some say that we should go to a single education system. That is fine because no doubt that would be a secular education system. Dare I say that to go down that road, with a comprehensive-style system, would be much more of a Trojan Horse. It would also be much more limiting to parental choice. It would fly in the face of what I would like to see.”
“On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker, I apologise to you and the Minister for missing a topical question.”
“Regrettably, the Minister is unable to respond, but I hope that he reads the Hansard report and that his officials go through it and provide some reassurance to Members that the Department is taking the issue with the seriousness with which it needs and deserves to be taken.”
“I know of one school in Belfast that does an annual trip to south Down for a beach clean as part of its Duke of Edinburgh award, giving something back when they have been to the constituency and enjoyed outdoor pursuits and other activities there. I want to pay tribute to the thousands of volunteers who give up time to go out and lift rubbish of everyday things. The one thing that has always struck me any time I have been on a beach clean is how much stuff there is to be lifted. It never fails to surprise me how quickly a bag can be filled. <BR /> <BR />This is an important issue to bring to the House.”
“I hope that we do not have to keep returning to this in an effort to make sure that something is done about it, because it is not only the people who live in south Down who want to see that improved, so do the people — the tourists — who we want to come and visit to enjoy the scenery and what we have to offer. We want it in a fit state for all people to enjoy, with no public health issues and no environmental damage. <BR /> <BR />I join Mr Rogers and pay tribute to the probably thousands of people who volunteer every year. I, like my colleagues, have been out on various beach cleans in various parts of the constituency. I want to pay tribute to those people. Many of them sometimes travel to do it.”
“<BR /> <BR />From the environmental perspective, the last thing anyone wants is our environment being constantly damaged and potential public health risks when we access beaches. We want our beaches to be very accessible. We want them to be places where people can go at all times of the year to get out and enjoy the great outdoors, and we want to make sure that they are safe. It is about keeping pressure on the Department, on agencies and on Northern Ireland Water to make sure that a collective approach is taken and that agencies that are directly responsible for improving water quality are held to account and made to live up to the standards that we expect and want to see set for our beaches. <BR /> <BR />It is positive that it is at least being debated.”
“It is a great shame that the Minister is not here to respond to the debate. <BR /> <BR />We have to look at what has been done if we are serious about developing a tourism product and caring for our environment in the way that we want it to be cared for and the way it deserves to be cared for. If we are serious about all of those aspirations, we have to really up our game in developing a tourism product where we have the mountains and where we have made huge and significant investments in developing mountain-bike trails and creating a product to bring people in. <BR /> <BR />Northern Ireland, across the board, lags way behind other parts of the UK and Ireland in the number of overnight stays of visitors outside Belfast and tourist spend outside Belfast, yet tourism is hailed as one of the key drivers of our economy and of revitalising it.”
“We are blessed in the constituency of South Down. Having been born and bred there and lived there all my life, I can certainly say, with a completely unbiased view, that it is the most beautiful constituency in the United Kingdom. We have everything — as well as the mountains, we have a coastline that stretches from Carlingford lough to Strangford lough, with many superb beaches in between. It is an absolute tragedy that so many are not in the condition that we want them to be in. We have to remind ourselves that many of them are in an area of outstanding natural beauty, and, given that some are even in an area of special scientific interest, we have to ask ourselves this: what is being done?”
“I congratulate Mr Hazzard on securing this evening's debate. One of several issues flagged is that we need to do significantly better as a collective, not only on the big waste and sewage problems for which Northern Ireland Water is the lead agency but in educating people that, when they access beaches and other beauty spots, they must take their waste home with them. That is a huge issue. <BR /> <BR />Colleagues across the Chamber and Ms Lo will probably know that, overall in Northern Ireland, we spend something like £30 million a year dealing with litter and clearing up other people's waste. That is a huge cost to the taxpayer and the public purse. As Mr Rogers rightly pointed out, this is everybody's responsibility. <BR /> <BR />In opening the debate, Mr Hazzard mentioned almost every beach in South Down.”
“By taking the legislative approach that you propose, we would at least have oversight and control in the proper democratic place — in this Chamber.”
“I am grateful to the Member for giving way. She not only wants accelerated passage, bypassing the procedures of the House, but she wants to bring in enabling legislation, in which case we would not have the same oversight over the regulations or what we are being asked to do further down the track.”
“I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. Does she have a definite timeline for when she thinks she could produce that draft Bill?”
“However, it makes absolutely no sense to kill a Bill that is before the Chamber and that has support from all the other political parties because it does not fit in with a process that the Department wants and to then consult and ask the House and Committee for accelerated passage. It makes no sense to do that. <BR /> <BR />I support the broad principles of the Bill, and I certainly hope that the Minister has a rethink on it.”
“We do not know when the Minister can get her Bill fully drafted, out and approved by the Executive. All those things give us a major difficulty in dealing with this. <BR /> <BR />I plead with the Minister to support the Second Stage of the Bill and to use it as a vehicle to deliver on some of the changes that I know the Department would like to see. If necessary, the Minister should bring a Bill to make the changes to the shopping centre issues that I know the Department wants to make. If those changes cannot be fitted into this Bill, she should bring a separate Bill to do that.”
“We might get a Bill; we might not. I know that Mr Nesbitt was to bring a Bill about defamation. That was conveniently killed off by DFP, which promised that it would take a look at the issue, but no such Bill has come before the House. <BR /> <BR />My huge concern is this: we are about to kill this Bill at Second Stage with no idea of an exact timeline or what all is going to be in the Department's Bill to address this. That is a major problem for us. We could very well end up at the end of the mandate with nothing and no help for the amateur sports clubs that Mr McKay wants to help. We might end up with nothing. <BR /> <BR />We have an Executive that are not meeting, and there are very few Ministers in office. We do not know when that is going to end or when the Executive will start to meet.”
“I am not a huge fan of accelerated passage because I think it bypasses and short-circuits the good processes and the type of scrutiny that a Committee can bring to a Bill — any Bill. Even departmental Bills, with all the machinery of government and a Bill team behind them, need technical amendments, changes and answers to questions about policy direction. There was ample time for that. Mr McKay did not exactly pull this Bill out of thin air a few weeks ago; it has been consulted on and has been through processes. He has had meetings with people and meetings about meetings on dealing with this Bill and these issues. Yet we are now faced with a choice — if only we had a bit more of a choice — of letting the Bill go through today, getting nothing or possibly getting a Bill from the Department and then ending up with nothing.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Minister responded to Mr Agnew's Children's Services Co-operation Bill by engaging with Departments and changing the Bill significantly. That is why I urge the Department to use Mr McKay's Bill so that it can go through its Assembly processes. There is broad agreement around the Chamber from all other parties that this is a good policy direction. There is broad agreement that we should do this, so use the Bill as a vehicle. My only doubt is that we have now been told by departmental officials, "We will introduce our own Bill. That gives us more time to consult, but, then, we will ask the Committee and the House to agree to accelerated passage".”
“I agree completely. They are the point of contact, whether it is for first-aid training or giving community police officers a way in to speak and engage with communities. All that work is vital. <BR /> <BR />I am hugely disappointed, but I hope that, even at this late stage, the Minister and her party will reconsider the application of a petition of concern. The difficulty with that is that, on 9 September, when DFP officials attended the Committee, they were in broad agreement with some of the policy aims but wanted to extend and improve the Bill. Look at other examples: the first private Member's Bill that Mr McKay introduced was on the plastic bags tax. The Department engaged with him and changed his Bill but used it to bring in the legislation and make it work.”
“Virtually all of them give freely of their time to help to create a significant — a mammoth — benefit to society by keeping young people occupied in improving their health and fitness, and the link between good physical health and good mental health is long established.”
“People give so much to clubs— their time and their talents — to raise money and coach youngsters. That, I believe, is the driving policy, and that is why I have supported the policy objectives that Mr McKay set out. <BR /> <BR />In response to Mr Bradley, Mr McElduff mentioned the knock-on effect of sports clubs holding events and functions in various hotels. Of course, I disapprove strongly of people going over the border to take advantage of the weak euro, but that is a debate for another day. We must not underestimate the huge knock-on effect or the sheer number of people involved in sporting clubs.”
“<BR /> <BR />The driving policy objective that Mr McKay has outlined from the start of this process is to help amateur sports clubs. Over recent weeks, we have had huge reason to have sporting pride in Northern Ireland and, indeed, across Ireland, with our rugby and football teams doing so well. Every one of those people will have started the early days of their career playing in an amateur sports club. One club that I know very well is, of course, Banbridge Rugby Football Club. You may have heard of a player who started his career there: Rory Best. That is the contribution that amateur sports clubs make to Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />Points have been made about the knock-on effect, the drive and the volunteerism that amateur sports clubs create.”
“I congratulate Mr McKay in bringing the Bill to this stage. Most of the legislation that has been debated in recent days has come from Back-Benchers. There was also a Committee Bill earlier today. Yet, I suppose that the main reason for blocking the Bill is the hope that our Executive will somehow bring an enhanced policy option to the table. I have a concern about that when I look at all the intentions of the Bill. I fully accept Mrs Cochrane's points that any Bill aims to take advantage of the processes of the Assembly, including a Committee Stage. Yet, we are effectively being told, "We need more time to consult, but we are going to do it by accelerated passage." The very point of having a Committee Stage is that it allows the Committee to consult. That is one of the key points.”
“We have in-out Ministers, and the only thing that they can come together on is to vote against a reduction in the number of SpAds.”
“The key drivers of inward investment are delivering political stability and delivering on skills. Where are we with either? That is the impact that the situation is having. Looking across government, I note that Minister O'Dowd is bringing forward legislation on shared education. I welcome that and want to see it, but Minister O'Dowd cannot get that legislation out of the Executive, because they are not meeting. How can we make progress and find agreement on an agenda that we want to see moving on? It almost reminds me of the Major Government in 1996 when BSE hit, when they decided that they would veto all European Union rules for a while, even the ones that they agreed with. <BR /> <BR />We are now in the ridiculous situation where nothing is going through the Executive, because they are not meeting.”
“Where are we with any of that debate? The best that our economy Minister can do before he has to resign is to take a trip to China or bring in legislation on credit unions.”
“We do not have an Enterprise Minister, except when he has a trip to China to go on; and we do not have a Health Minister, although he says that his absence has no impact. Meanwhile, we have people waiting, people who should, and want, to get their operation over with and, possibly, go back into the workplace. Companies are depending on some people coming back to work. This is bound to have a detrimental effect on our economy. <BR /> <BR />Look at the state of our economy: we have not achieved the level of growth that we see in other parts of the UK, and the Republic of Ireland is heading for a growth rate of 6·2%.”
“It is no surprise that I want them to change, progress, evolve and normalise as much as possible, but a brutal act of criminality should not have brought our Government down or to their knees and the very being of the Assembly into question. <BR /> <BR />What of the DUP strategy of absentee, or in/out, Ministers? I do not think that it is remotely helpful to the Assembly or the public at large. I do not think that it is remotely helpful to the DUP. There is some argument about what impact a Minister in position would have on the health service. Nearly four years into the Transforming Your Care strategy, and three Ministers later — if you count Mr Hamilton's time as continuous service — what have our Government delivered? Twenty per cent of our population are on a waiting list. What impact is that having on our economy?”
“When looking at the strategy and debating the motion, we look back, and all colleagues referred to events over the summer that were the precursor to this. I have always taken the view that paramilitary activity over the last number of years has become very clearly linked to criminality. The act of brutal criminality that we had on our streets — the murder of Mr McGuigan — is, to my mind, a matter for the police, who should have all the resources that they need to investigate such a crime. If there are wider implications of organised crime, we have the National Crime Agency to investigate and deal with that. An act of brutal criminality like that should never have been in a position to bring down the entire Government of Northern Ireland. These institutions were hard won in 1998.”
“Mr Speaker, I did mean to offer an apology for missing a question two weeks ago. <BR /> <BR />Although the Acting First Minister has named some successes, I think that you would need to be living somewhere else to not say that we have significant problems. Does she accept that, when we come back after the next election, presumably next May, we cannot come back to the same level of dysfunctionality and zero decision-making as we faced in the current mandate? Does she agree that the next mandate truly must be about delivery?”
“I am grateful to the Minister for his replies. Minister, I think that you will agree that one of the concerns is the inconsistency with which councils sometimes view planning policies. At times, they are so inconsistent in the application that it causes great alarm among those applying for planning permission for development. Some councils are really struggling to meet any level of service to the public, and long delays are building up. Will he consider setting an Executive target for planning applications?”
“It is not a good image for the Government and the Assembly, and Mr Allister's Bill can and should be used to address that. The great thing about its passage through Second Stage and going to Committee is that not only the Committee but Members can look at amending and possibly improving the Bill or addressing some of the concerns that they have about it. I certainly support the Bill's passage through Second Stage.”
“<BR /> <BR />Mrs Cochrane mentioned the skill set that particular advisers bring, and Mr Agnew talked about the recruitment process that he uses. Any time that I recruited in the last number of years, I went outside the narrow bounds and down the road of a more open contest. The process for special advisers, as well as being more open, should demand some evidence that a special adviser possesses the skill set necessary to advise in the Finance Department, the Health Department, the Department for Social Development or the Department for Regional Development. Instead, the perception is that, sometimes, it is more a case of, "Oh, we had better bring Joe in; it's his turn to be special adviser for a while". There is too much of that.”
“There could be a junior Minister with responsibility for social care and another with responsibility for skills in the Department of the Economy. That would be a much better place for them to go, and it would be much better practice. If you follow through on the logic that junior Ministers would be an unnecessary addition to a future Executive Office, you will find it very difficult to say why on earth you had eight SpAds in it. <BR /> <BR />Not only is Mr Allister on to something with the Bill but the timing is right. We are looking at reforming government and reducing the number of Departments and special advisers. Indeed, my Bill is about reforming the way in which the Executive and Assembly carry out their business, so, in that sense, the Bill is timely.”
“There was a promise of jam tomorrow from Mr Lyons, when he said, "Look, we're taking care of all this". As Mr Agnew said, at least this corner of the Chamber is producing legislation that can change and reform and, in this case, restrict the excessive expenditure of the Government on itself. <BR /> <BR />I support, as I made clear in Committee, moving to an Executive Office and a reduced number of Departments. I have also made it clear on previous occasions that, when you take the departmental responsibilities out of OFMDFM and change it to being a much more coordinating body, there is no need for it to have eight SpAds and two junior Ministers. The two junior Ministers might be much better served by being in other places.”
“Mr Lyons, who is not in his place, lauded the DUP. I welcome the DUP to the debate. The fact that the farm lobby and Mr Allister have been the only two so far who could get the DUP to the Chamber sets the bar quite high. Mr Lyons made the argument that the DUP agrees with parts of the Bill but that much of it was already being done. He said that the timing of the Bill was all wrong and that we should wait for the reduction of Departments that will deliver three fewer SpAds anyway. <BR /> <BR />I gave a warning last week at the Committee: we were to get rid of the Department for Employment and Learning sometime in the autumn of 2011, but it was then decided that a better time to do it would be the end of the financial year — it is still here, and, by the looks of it, is likely to be here for the rest of the mandate. It survived all that.”
“It is difficult to find much evidence for the idea that, somehow, there is a huge problem of negotiating between the SpAds, and that we therefore need huge numbers of extra SpAds and that they need to be so highly paid. It is also difficult to maintain that argument when you have the First Minister describing the Executive as dysfunctional. It is hard to say that having so many SpAds and paying them £92,000 a year is adding much to functionality.”