Alastair Ross
East Antrim · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“Over the weekend, she supported an independent investigation into everything that is going on in the RHI scheme. She has been working with the Economy Minister to try to make sure that we have something in place in early January to stop the costs of the scheme and reduce the cost.”
“There is no doubt that it has been an incredibly difficult time over the past two weeks for anyone involved in politics. It is quite clear that the public are, quite rightly, angry about a scheme that, with hindsight, was poorly designed and badly administered.”
“I know that, for some individuals, the old habit of asking questions rather than trying to answer them, dies hard, but what we had was not an opposition-driven policy or an attempt to hold the Executive to account; it was a media-driven thing, and some of the opposition parties tried to jump on the bandwagon.”
“Again, I hear the leader of the Alliance Party chirping away in the background. I listened to her contribution, and she must have had 10 or 11 questions she wanted answered.”
“That is why some of the hyperbole that has been around today is hard to stomach. <BR /> <BR />What we heard from my colleague Joanne Bunting was a thoughtful and considered first contribution to the Assembly, and I think that it was one that shows that she will be a valuable asset to the Chamber.”
“They abandoned their seats, and they failed to discharge their duties or ask the questions that their voters might, quite rightly, want them to ask. The public care very little about procedures, points of order or Standing Orders.”
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“The Member has posed a series of questions about how many of the employed are on zero-hours contracts. Has he any answers? We need evidence-based policy making. Has he specific answers to the questions that he has posed?”
“The Minister has talked about the competitive nature of attracting investors to Northern Ireland. One of the elements of the Employment Bill going through today is an amendment that will allow Northern Ireland's qualifying period for unfair dismissal to be the same as that in GB. Would he share my concern that, if Northern Ireland has a different employment law environment than, perhaps, Glasgow or Liverpool, we would be at a disadvantage, in terms of investment, if we did not keep in step with change in the GB employment law?”
“I know that, last week or the week before, the Minister was overseas helping to try to attract investors to Northern Ireland to create jobs. From his experience of working alongside the Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Investment or, indeed, Invest Northern Ireland, does he understand their view on whether employers, when they are looking to invest in Northern Ireland, look at more flexibility to encourage them to create jobs and, indeed, whether smaller, family-run companies will be more likely to create new jobs if the risk of doing so is diminished by giving them more flexibility when it comes to unfair dismissal?”
“The Minister will be aware that any time drilling is involved, there is, quite rightly, concern among the public around safety issues, particularly around water supplies. Has she assessed whether there is any risk to the water supply following on from the exploratory drilling?”
“The debate around our membership of the European Union is important, and, in order to make sure that we have a proper debate, it is important that we have enough space between the Assembly election and the European referendum. What discussions has OFMDFM had with other devolved regions across the United Kingdom or, indeed, our national Government on the timing of the referendum and whether there is scope for negotiation on a September date rather than a June date?”
“It is absolutely clear that new and innovative approaches will need to play a part in this, as doing the same is no longer an option.”
“The Committee urges both professions and the Department to continue discussions with a view to reaching agreement regarding legal aid fees whilst recognising the budgetary constraints that apply to all areas. We run the real risk of, next year, having a huge backlog in the courts and a double hit with regard to pressures on the legal aid budget. That will leave either the Department or the Executive in a very difficult financial position. <BR /> <BR />It is clear that the Department of Justice continues to face a difficult budgetary climate in 2016-17. Funding will have to be carefully managed to ensure that key priorities and targets can be delivered to the required standard and front-line services protected.”
“However, given the current budgetary climate and the funding pressure on all areas, the present position where the cost of legal aid continually exceeds the available budget, requiring resources to be diverted from other areas either in the Department of Justice or by the Executive, is not sustainable. Concerted efforts must be made to reach a satisfactory resolution. The Committee is disappointed with the current situation where members of both legal professions have come off record, resulting in a considerable backlog of cases in the Crown Courts and the Bar Council's recent decision to suspend dialogue with the Department of Justice.”
“Finally, I do not think that you could ever expect a speech from a Chairman of the Committee for Justice with no reference to legal aid. The Committee has spent considerable time on legal aid, since the devolution of policing and justice in 2010. We have never lived within our means when it comes to legal aid. I have no doubt that the Committee for Justice in the new mandate will also have to spend considerable time looking at that issue. <BR /> <BR />The additional allocation of £15 million provided by the Executive for legal aid is of course welcome to meet the pressure and will help to address some of the forecast pressure.”
“That is where innovation in justice can deliver real outcomes. Next month, the Justice Committee will be assessing the information gathered, identifying new initiatives and ways of working and looking at how they can be adopted in Northern Ireland. We will make a series of recommendations for the Justice Minister.”
“<BR /> <BR />When I took up post, I initiated a range of work to look at new and innovative approaches that could be adopted, reforms that could be brought into justice and ways in which we could improve the delivery of the criminal justice system in Northern Ireland in the context of reducing budgets. We identified a range of areas, including online dispute resolution, problem-solving courts, improving efficiency in the courts and identifying where we could save money but, crucially, improve outcomes for victims and offenders. When looking at reducing legal aid, in particular, we need to have something viable in its place. I think that the online dispute resolution system, as used in the Netherlands and Canada, is a clear example of where we can still get good outcomes for citizens but at reduced cost to the taxpayer.”
“We must come to the recognition that, sometimes, there are services that government cannot deliver. I think that this is a clear example of a service that government could not deliver, but it is important that we have the right partners who can do that. <BR /> <BR />I think the Minister will be glad to hear that the Committee has looked at how we can operate in reduced climates. It is not just about asking for more money; it is about how we do more with the money we have. With that in mind, we looked at the budgetary pressures and difficult challenges, and we saw them as an opportunity to do things differently and adopt new and innovative ways of working and delivering services.”
“Both organisations provide interventions to reduce the risk of reoffending and often work with offenders who have committed serious offences. They are concerned about the direction of travel of the partnership relationship between themselves and the Department of Justice and about how funding will peter out in years to come. Both organisations pointed out that, even though they are charities, they are providing core services with high-risk offenders and are essential to the overall delivery of services, rather than what could be classified as "add-on" services. However, no analysis of what funding is provided, how funding is used, what is delivered for the money and what the impact would be, if the service was not delivered, has been carried out, as far as we are aware.”
“The Committee was of the view that the reduction or closure of such services would most likely result in increased costs for the Police Service of Northern Ireland, the courts and, ultimately, the Prison Service. It advised the Department of Justice that a cost-benefit analysis and an analysis of the likely impact on, and cost to, other areas of the criminal justice system should be carried out before such decisions were taken and stated that, otherwise, it would result in a false economy and greater costs in the long run. Unfortunately, the Department did not provide evidence of such an analysis before proceeding with the budget reductions. <BR /> <BR />I and other Committee members met representatives from NIACRO and Extern, last week.”
“Whilst there are, clearly, security considerations in some aspects of their work, I believe that there is, undoubtedly, an opportunity for shared services with other aspects of the public sector. <BR /> <BR />When considering the Justice budget last year, the Committee raised concerns regarding proposed cuts to funding for the voluntary and community organisations that provide front-line services, such as the drug arrest referrals, which the Minister will be well aware of in his constituency, harm-reduction services and rehabilitation and preventative programmes for offenders. The Committee highlighted at that time that the aim of those organisations is to help keep people out of prison and out of the criminal justice system.”
“<BR /> <BR />I welcome the decision to limit the reduction in the PSNI's core budget to 2%. That will enable the Chief Constable to address the ongoing resilience challenges faced by the police and undertake recruitment to ensure that he has an appropriate number of officers and the necessary funding to deliver front-line policing, including community policing and the protection of public safety. The provision of an additional £32 million for security funding provided in the Fresh Start Agreement, whilst ring-fenced for specific purposes, will also help ease the PSNI budget position. However, given the ongoing budget pressures, there is a clear need for the PSNI to continue to examine all areas of its spending.”
“I rise on behalf of the Committee. The Committee noted the Department's intention to largely protect the Northern Ireland Prison Service, the Youth Justice Agency, the Probation Board, the range of policing bodies and the voluntary and community sector by subjecting them to a budget reduction of between 1·5% and 2·9%, rather than applying a 5·7% reduction across all areas. The Committee took the opportunity to explore a range of issues, including the likely impact of the further proposed 1·5% budget reductions on the voluntary and community organisations that provide services such as victim support and NIACRO, the ability of the Probation Board to continue to deliver its statutory services and the cost of legacy-related work to the Department and the PSNI.”
“I understand why the Minister is attracted to a scheme to help newly qualified teachers to find permanent work, but he will be aware of a number of concerns about the proposals. Has he taken advice on the equality issues with such a scheme? If so, has that led him to reconsider any aspect of it?”
“The Committee noted that the policy intention of the rule relates to the protection of guaranteed minimum pension benefit for police officers who transfer from the old to the new pension schemes. At our meeting on 7 January 2015, the Committee agreed to recommend that the statutory rule be affirmed by the Assembly and therefore supports the motion today.”
“I will speak very briefly on the motion today on behalf of the Committee. As the Minister has already outlined, the statutory rule makes a technical amendment to existing rules for police pensions contained within the Public Service Pensions Act (Northern Ireland) 2014, following the introduction of the Pensions Act (Northern Ireland) 2015. In line with other public pension schemes, the amendment is required to introduce the protection of increases in guaranteed minimum pensions following the abolition of contracting out. <BR /> <BR />In December, the Committee noted the detail of the proposed changes and considered the statutory rule itself more recently at the meeting on 7 January 2015.”
“I thank the Minister for bringing the statement to the House. The Minister mentioned looking to access European funding for justice initiatives: can he tell us what areas, in particular, he is thinking about that could be funded through those streams and what funding he has been able to access from European funds over the last four years? Secondly, I turn to the cross-jurisdictional joint agency task force flowing from the Fresh Start Agreement, which is aimed at tackling organised crime and criminality including that linked to paramilitarism. When does the Justice Minister believe we will start to see the results of that work in arrests, prosecutions and securing convictions of those involved in illegal smuggling, particularly around the border, and fuel fraud?”
“<BR /> <BR />I am glad that both the Department of Justice and the Police Service of Northern Ireland have responded to our report and that we have seen progress in meeting most, if not all, of our recommendations. That shows the importance of the Committee meeting with stakeholders and highlighting issues of importance, such as business crime. It also shows that, when we focus our work on that, we can get results. I commend the report to the House.”
“That leads to the greater debate, which is taking place at Westminster, on getting the balance right between our need to police the internet and our right to online privacy. <BR /> <BR />I mentioned that other members of the Committee will raise other areas of our report. It is important that, when you raise an issue like this, you want to see results. The Committee made a number of recommendations, including the development of a business crime strategy, improved strategic partnership, working together with a partnership forum and a dedicated assistant chief constable for business crime to provide ongoing engagement with key stakeholders. We also asked for the adoption and use of an agreed definition of "business crime" to provide for improved and consistent data collection and analysis regarding scale and impact.”
“There is a difference between real world crime and online crime, and perhaps people do not take cybercrime as seriously as they should. <BR /> <BR />As I mentioned earlier, some smaller companies are afraid to trade online because they are not fully up to speed with the safety software that they require, and larger firms are being attacked on an almost daily basis, including our banks and larger institutions. There is a real challenge for law enforcement in trying to identify cybercriminals, locating where the attacks are coming from and getting other law enforcement agencies from across the world to cooperate with them to find those responsible and bring them to justice. There are legal challenges from operating in a borderless world.”
“The FSB has indicated that its research estimates that the average cost to small businesses of fraud and online crime was in and around £4,000 a year. <BR /> <BR />The police believe that the vast majority of cybercrime is not reported at all. Therefore, it is difficult to obtain an accurate picture. Again, I put it to Members that, if you were walking down the street and somebody attempted to steal your wallet or handbag, you would not think twice about reporting it to the police. However, if you received an email that had malware attached to it or that was looking to defraud you out of money by offering you a fraudulent investment, you would not report it to the police. People do not report it to the police.”
“It covers anything from fraudulent emails that have malware or spyware attached to them, informing you that you have won the pools in some far-off country or that you have the opportunity to invest in some sort of business scheme, to identity theft or online use of your credit card details as well as more sophisticated crime, such as cyber attacks, terrorist communications or the sharing of illegal images on the darknet. It is one of those areas that we are struggling to fully understand and that the legal profession is struggling to keep up with. <BR /> <BR />Grant Thornton reported back in November that cybercrime costs the economy in Northern Ireland somewhere in the region of £100 million a year, so it is a significant pressure on small businesses.”
“We were thrilled to have Europol, the PSNI and the Lord Chief Justice there to highlight some of the legal responses to it. <BR /> <BR />Overall statistics will continually point to the fact that crime is on the decrease. However, cybercrime is on the increase. Perhaps crime is shifting from the real world to the online world. That is something that we have to be cognisant of. A number of media reports in recent months have highlighted the level of cybercrime across the United Kingdom. Of course, it is having a big impact, but perhaps we do not quite understand how big an issue it is because, unless the target is one of the big companies that is worth millions of pounds, it is not reported in the same way. <BR /> <BR />It is a growing problem and is a definition that covers a wide range of illegal activity.”
“Some of us think principally of machinery theft as being rural crime, but there is also the theft of livestock, which is on the increase. So, various members of the Committee will raise those issues during the debate today and perhaps concentrate on different sections of our report. <BR /> <BR />I want to touch on cybercrime in particular. It is an issue that the Committee has looked at several times over the last 12 months. Not only did we discuss it during our stakeholder event, it was raised at a number of the innovation seminars as being one of those issues that the legal profession is, perhaps, struggling to keep pace with and the new challenges it presents. It was also a theme of the conference that the Committee held in W5 a few months ago on social media, cybercrime and the legal response to it.”
“They talked about some of the illegal activities around selling alcohol. Members will be aware that there is a huge cost to getting a liquor licence in Northern Ireland, and there are limited numbers of them. Many people are opening up restaurants and getting restaurant licences, and they are handing over a free bowl of chips and are, therefore, able to sell alcohol until all hours of the morning. This is a particular issue and one that, at constituency level, I have been made aware of. It is something that the police need to look at and ensure that those who spend the time and money on getting a liquor licence are not at a disadvantage against those who flout the law. <BR /> <BR />The final issue raised was around rural crime.”
“This is a particular issue because some of the larger companies are fearful of reporting cybercrime as they are fearful that their consumers will lose confidence in their ability to keep information safe and operate in the online world. So, how we get accurate information about the level of cybercrime is a real issue. <BR /> <BR />It is not just the big companies that suffer; small businesses suffer from cybercrime as well. That point was made by the FSB. At other events that I attended that Ulster Bank held not so long ago in Lisburn, a number of small businesses there had also been targeted by cyber criminals. So, it is impacting large and small businesses. <BR /> <BR />There was also comment from the hospitality sector and Pubs of Ulster, which is now Hospitality Ulster.”
“Again, during our event and other events that I have attended, there seems to be a prevalence of gangs who will come over from Great Britain or even eastern Europe and concentrate on a number of stores over three of four days before returning home again. That seems to be particularly the case with supermarkets. Retailers Against Crime held an event at Belfast City Hall, at which they highlighted this as a growing problem and highlighted some of their efforts to share information between stores to combat that. <BR /> <BR />During our event, there was also comment on the increasing impact and significant under-reporting of cybercrime, including business fraud.”
“A number of common themes were raised by virtually all the stakeholders during the event, including a lack of confidence in policing and justice in relation to retail and business crime, which they argued was reflected in the high level of under-reporting of such crime, the need to strengthen and develop partnerships between relevant statutory agencies and stakeholder organisations, although there was a variance of views on what that should look like. <BR /> <BR />They highlighted the disparities in the definition of business crime and the poor quality of data collection, which has meant that it is difficult to measure the impact of retail and business crime. They highlighted the growth of organised crime and the challenge of criminals who operate across borders.”
“A subsequent written submission was received from the National Federation of Retail Newsagents (NFRN). All the information from the event and the report is available for Members on the Committee website. <BR /> <BR />A number of issues were raised during the event, including the challenge of identifying what business crime is, given that it can cover everything from shoplifting in a corner shop to ATM robberies, fraud to online crime, tiger kidnapping to theft of livestock.”
“At the stakeholder event, many stakeholders expressed their disappointment that business crime was not included as part of the policing plan for 2015-16. Therefore, they welcomed the opportunity to discuss key issues relating to business crime and identified the actions that could be taken to address some of the particular issues. The event facilitated input from key organisations and dialogue between the PSNI, legislators and those key stakeholders. We had representatives from the following organisations: the Federation of Small Businesses (FSB); the Northern Ireland Independent Retail Trade Association (NIIRTA); the Northern Ireland Retail Consortium (NIRC); Pubs of Ulster, which is now Hospitality Ulster; Retailers Against Crime; and the Police Service of Northern Ireland.”
“However, we did not want to ignore the issue, so, instead of holding a full inquiry, we decided to do a short, focused report and have a stakeholder event. It was a format that worked particularly well and one that the Committee could use again in the future to highlight particular issues of interest.”
“On behalf of the Committee, I am pleased to bring the report on the Committee’s business crime stakeholder event to the Floor for debate. Over the past year, we have tried to play a constructive role in the criminal justice sector by looking for ways of identifying opportunities for reform, exploring innovative policy ideas and highlighting areas of concern, and I hope that the Minister will acknowledge that. That is precisely why we held our event on business crime. <BR /> <BR />Our focused round-table event was held in response to an approach from several stakeholders who had initially asked us to hold an inquiry into business crime in Northern Ireland. Members will appreciate and the Committee was very aware that that is often a very time-consuming thing to do.”
“I questioned the accuracy of that statement and asked Mrs Dobson to reflect on it, but she robustly refused to do so. It is my understanding that the chief executive of Ulster Rugby has now written to you, Mr Speaker, to advise that Ulster Rugby does not support her campaign to move to a soft opt-out system and to ask that the record be corrected accordingly. Mr Speaker, how can that best be achieved?”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Last Monday, during the Second Stage of the Human Transplantation Bill, the Member for Upper Bann Mrs Dobson claimed that Ulster Rugby:”
“Table B of the annex to the statement indicates that the PSNI has returned close to £20 million. We know that, thankfully, the PSNI had to police a quieter summer this year than last. However, is there any other reason why the PSNI return is quite so large, and can DFP offer the police any assistance to help them to manage fluctuations in their budget? Are there any additional resources to help to meet the ongoing legal aid pressures?”
“On a point of order, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker. The Member has just indicated that Ulster Rugby is supportive of a move to soft opt-out: that is not the case. Perhaps Mrs Dobson will use the opportunity to correct the record.”
“On a point of order, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker. I fully acknowledge that it up to Members to decide whether they give way in a debate, but is it in order for a Member to ask a specific question of another Member and then refuse to give way?”
“I thank the Member for being so generous in giving time. She made an interesting point about somebody who makes a declaration during their life that they want to be a willing organ donor but knows that their family may veto that. It is an interesting area, and it is one that some of my colleagues have raised with Mrs Dobson in Committee. I suppose that the very practical difficulty of doing that is that you are putting not only families in a very difficult position in a trauma unit but doctors too. In practice, would you really want to have a system that puts families and doctors in conflict? In the scenario where families do not give consent in a trauma unit or at the end of someone's life, you are potentially creating an opportunity for conflict between doctors and families, which is exactly what we want to avoid.”
“I just want to ask where the Member gets her confidence that, by not opting out, that person has made an active decision and that they would have told their family members. There are many reasons why somebody will not have got round to opting out of organ donation. How does that give families certainty that they know what their loved one's wishes were? That is the major concern. If somebody has never been forced to make the decision in their life, it makes the family's decision much more difficult, which leads to a higher refusal rate when it comes to family consent. I just do not see where she gets her confidence that anybody who is opposed to this will necessarily opt out if they do not know how do it or are not aware that they are on the list and all those sorts of issues.”
“Does the Member not accept that what we want is people to give an indication during their life that they are a willing organ donor, rather than trying to move to a position where silence on the issue is somehow interpreted as consent, which will put families in much more difficult circumstances?”
“<BR /> <BR />My concern about moving to presumed consent, deemed consent and an opt-out system is that an individual does not have to make a declaration that they are a willing organ donor during their life; they simply do not have to do anything. Does that give the family more or less certainty when they are being asked the question? My contention and some of the evidence from elsewhere in the world is that clinicians feel that that gives families less certainty because a loved one has never made an active move in their life to say that they are a willing organ donor. In those circumstances, the Bill will be counterproductive, and that is where one of the concerns comes from.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. For anybody who wants to see a higher rate of organ donation, one of the major issues is how you get a higher rate of family consent in a difficult position. My argument is that, with an opt-in system, at least family members have something to make a judgement on, because they have either had that discussion with their loved one, or their loved one has signed up to the organ donor register. Whilst signing up to the organ donor register on its own will not necessarily lead to an organ donation, at least the family have something solid to look at in guiding them to their decision.”
“If the Member is encouraging the Minister to look at the areas of best practice, that will be Spain and the United States of America. Does he accept that neither of those countries use presumed consent? So he is actually asking the Minister to move to a system where we will not have presumed consent and where we maintain the voluntary opt-in system, but where we have greater public awareness of the issue and specialised nurses in hospitals. Those are the two drivers that have evidence from around the world, rather than moving towards presumed consent.”
“I think it is absolutely in our gift to do that. <BR /> <BR />I hope that, despite perhaps discussing the issue at length, I have injected some form of debate and some level of scrutiny into this Bill at Second Stage. I hope that Members will take those concerns genuinely and have a rational and balanced debate about whether the Bill is the most appropriate way in which we in Northern Ireland can boost organ donation rates.”
“<BR /> <BR />I appeal to Members, particularly those on the Health Committee, to look at the evidence, get beyond the notion of whether countries operate an opt-in or opt-out system and look at the real drivers for promoting organ donation across Europe and the world. If members of the Health Committee do that, it is my belief that they will quickly come to the conclusion that the most important factors in promoting organ donation are public awareness and having transplant specialist nurses in hospitals who are specially trained to recognise potential organ donors and deal with families in particularly difficult circumstances. If they come to that conclusion, they will also come to the conclusion that we do not need legislation on this issue; we just need a Health Department focused on delivering those changes.”
“Anyone who reads or listens to the extraordinary stories of people who have donated their organs, or who have had loved ones donate their organs on death, and saved up to six other lives, or anyone who have benefited from such an amazing gift of life, could not fail to be inspired. <BR />Let us not move away from the concept of organ donation as a gift. Let us inspire others to give the gift of life by making a decision on whether they wish to donate their organs and help others. Instead of looking to pass legislation on the issue, let us work together to promote the real drivers of organ donation, namely increasing public awareness of organ donation and ensuring that we have the specialist transplant coordinators in every hospital across Northern Ireland.”