Alastair Ross
East Antrim · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“Over the weekend, she supported an independent investigation into everything that is going on in the RHI scheme. She has been working with the Economy Minister to try to make sure that we have something in place in early January to stop the costs of the scheme and reduce the cost.”
“There is no doubt that it has been an incredibly difficult time over the past two weeks for anyone involved in politics. It is quite clear that the public are, quite rightly, angry about a scheme that, with hindsight, was poorly designed and badly administered.”
“I know that, for some individuals, the old habit of asking questions rather than trying to answer them, dies hard, but what we had was not an opposition-driven policy or an attempt to hold the Executive to account; it was a media-driven thing, and some of the opposition parties tried to jump on the bandwagon.”
“Again, I hear the leader of the Alliance Party chirping away in the background. I listened to her contribution, and she must have had 10 or 11 questions she wanted answered.”
“That is why some of the hyperbole that has been around today is hard to stomach. <BR /> <BR />What we heard from my colleague Joanne Bunting was a thoughtful and considered first contribution to the Assembly, and I think that it was one that shows that she will be a valuable asset to the Chamber.”
“They abandoned their seats, and they failed to discharge their duties or ask the questions that their voters might, quite rightly, want them to ask. The public care very little about procedures, points of order or Standing Orders.”
The complete record
Every one of 1,064 lines we hold for Alastair Ross, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 19 of 22.
“I thank the Minister for giving way. The Minister, as I have, will have heard many Members talk about the absolute importance of putting victims at the heart of the criminal justice system. Is it not the case that what the Minister is proposing today came out of a piece of work that the Committee did after it had listened to what victims and witnesses told the Committee to do, which was to try to bring about a system of justice that protects victims from being traumatised — potentially twice — and going through a mini trial before the trial? Actually, Members pay lip service to putting victims at the centre of the criminal justice system.”
“You mentioned how it was an effective filtering mechanism. Will the Member accept, given that the numbers are so low for the last two years that figures are available for, that there is an argument that, if it is a filtering mechanism, it is not perhaps a very good filtering system?”
“While delay is a common complaint with regard to the entire criminal justice process, one of the key frustrations for victims and witnesses is the length of time that court cases take and the number of postponements and adjournments that frequently occur. The Committee was of the view that a statutory case management scheme would be beneficial and have an overall positive effect in addressing delay and, ultimately, the experiences of victims and witnesses and, therefore, recommended to the Minister that that should be taken forward in the next available piece of justice legislation. The Committee, therefore, welcomes and supports clauses 79 and 80 and the proposed amendments that aim to address avoidable delay in criminal proceedings.”
“<BR /> <BR />One issue that was consistently raised during the Committee's inquiry was the adverse impact that the length of time it takes for cases to go through the criminal justice system has on victims and witnesses, many of whom are unable to move on while they wait for the process to be completed. Whilst recognising the complexity of the issue, the Committee noted that avoidable delay in the criminal justice system was not new and, in its view, has been going on for far too long. Given the detrimental effect that it has on victims and witnesses, as clearly demonstrated by the evidence received in the inquiry, the Committee believed that substantive action was required.”
“The Examiner considered whether the regulation-making powers in clauses 79 and 80 should be subject to the draft affirmative procedure but was satisfied that they could be left subject to negative resolution if there was a built-in statutory requirement to consult the Lord Chief Justice, the Director of Public Prosecutions, the Bar Council and the Law Society given that, if the regulations are to be workable in any proper and meaningful way, they will need to have a major input from those involved. The Committee referred the matter to the Department for consideration, and the amendments today address that issue and a proposal by the Attorney General that the general duty to progress cases should be placed in the Bill rather than providing a power to make regulations to do so.”
“<BR /> <BR />Having sought the advice of the Assembly Examiner of Statutory Rules regarding the range of powers in the Bill to make subordinate legislation, the Examiner drew the attention of the Committee to the regulation-making powers in clause 79(2) and clause 80 on the grounds that both clauses are at the core of the Bill's main purposes and are therefore significant for that reason and as they are likely to and intended to have a major impact on the conduct of criminal proceedings.”
“The Department has included those provisions in the Bill in response to the Justice Committee's recommendation in its inquiry into the criminal justice services available for victims and witnesses that case management should be placed on a statutory footing as a means of tackling delays in the system. All the evidence received by the Committee on those provisions recognised the serious problem of delay in criminal proceedings and the negative impact that it has on victims, witnesses and defendants, especially children and young people, and support was clear for measures to address avoidable delay, including statutory case management.”
“Those clauses introduce a statutory framework for the management of criminal cases, and, through regulation, the Department of Justice will be able to impose duties on the prosecution, defence and the court that will set out what must be completed prior to the commencement of court stages. The Department can also impose a general duty to reach a just outcome as swiftly as possible on anyone exercising a function in relation to criminal proceedings. I listened to the contribution from Mr Allister. I am speaking on behalf of the Committee. I do not think that the Committee's understanding of what "swift" meant was that it should be rushed through the system. We just meant that we did not want to have unnecessary delay. That is certainly my understanding of where the Committee was coming from on that issue.”
“<BR /> <BR />Noting the purpose of clauses 77 and 78 and having sought reassurances regarding the protections available for children and vulnerable adults and the assistance provided to people with communication difficulties, the Committee also agreed that it was content with clauses 78 and 79, although several members outlined concerns and reservations regarding the duty to be placed on solicitors, with views expressed that it is unnecessary as, in practice, a solicitor would inform a client of the position anyway; it could potentially create problems and conflicts between solicitors and clients; and would not deliver efficiencies. <BR /> <BR />I will move on to clauses 79 and 80 and amendment Nos 43, 44, 45 and 46.”
“The Department informed the Committee that, on the advice of the Attorney General, it intended to bring forward that amendment to remove a regulatory-making power in subsection 3 of clause 78 that has been identified as being of no practical benefit. The Committee agreed that it was content with that approach.”
“The Committee did, however, question whether clause 46 required amendment to provide the same safeguard as is provided in clauses 44 and 45, which places a responsibility on the court to adjourn proceedings where it appears to it that the accused is not able to see and hear the court and be seen and heard by it and where that cannot be immediately corrected. As a result of that, the Minister has brought forward amendment No 20 today. <BR /> <BR />I now want to briefly comment on amendment No 40, which relates to clause 78. Together with clause 77, it provides legislative support to a non-legislative scheme being developed to provide a structured early guilty plea scheme in the Magistrates' Courts and the Crown Court.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Committee also explored the estimated savings to be made by extending the use of live links and noted that the use of live links for first remand at weekends and public holidays would reduce 330 judicial days to around 52 days. <BR /> <BR />Given the benefits of extending the use of live links, the assurances provided by the Department regarding the various legal requirements set out in statutory frameworks for the use of them, which operate under the authority and supervision of the courts and judiciary, and the fact that the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety had requested the provisions in respect of persons detained in hospital under mental health legislation, the Committee agreed that it was content with clauses 44 to 49.”
“The Department advised that staff and six children in the juvenile justice centre, all of whom had experience of using live links, had been interviewed and were very supportive of the system. There was a generally high level of satisfaction, and reasons given for preferring live links included that it is less intimidating, more convenient and private, does not require the child to speak or stand in front of everyone and that care workers can be there to help. The Department also confirmed that, in conjunction with the Courts and Tribunals Service and the Office of the Lord Chief Justice, it will produce guidance for the courts, legal representatives and defendants on their new arrangements for the use of live links for certain hearings at weekends and public holidays, before the provisions are commenced.”
“<BR /> <BR />In relation to the impact of live links and the ability of children to understand and participate in proceedings, the Committee noted that consultation with the judiciary in the past indicated that, from their perspective, a live link facility whereby the child can speak directly and more visibly with the bench can assist the contribution they make, and an on-screen, face-to-face exchange can be more effective than when the child is sitting more remotely in a busy and possibly intimidating courtroom. <BR /> <BR />The Committee sought further information on any consultation that had been undertaken with young people on their experience of live links and their views on the proposed changes.”
“<BR /> <BR />Committee members are aware of the current use that is made of video links with little or no evidence of problems arising and, when considering the proposals to expand their use, noted that there are statutory requirements that the person must be able to see and hear and to be seen and be heard for a live link to take place, otherwise the hearing must be adjourned. It is the responsibility of the courts and the judiciary to ensure and monitor compliance with those requirements.”
“The main issues raised in the evidence received by the Committee focused on wider issues relating to the use of live links generally, particularly with regard to children and young people and their ability to understand and participate in proceedings and give informed consent, and the ability of a defendant to access legal representation and communicate with their legal representative. Indeed, it is an issue that formed part of a discussion at a recent justice seminar that the Committee held in this building.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Committee also supports amendment No 3, which will allow for the direct committal of any co-defendants who are charged with an offence that is not a specified offence so that, in the interests of justice, all defendants can be tried at the same time. <BR /> <BR />I move on to Part 6 of the Bill, which will expand provision for the use of live video link facilities in courts, prisons and psychiatric units, and to amendment No 20, which the Minister is bringing forward.”
“<BR /> <BR />Given the benefits to victims and witnesses, the evidence, which indicates that very few defendants who are the subject of committal proceedings are not committed for trial, and the fact that under clause 7 district judges will retain their existing power to decide whether a prima facie case against the defendant is disclosed by the evidence and can discharge the defendant on the basis that no such case exists, the Committee agreed that it is content with clauses 7 to 16. One Member, Mr Maginness, indicated that he had some concerns, and I am sure he will outline them during his contribution this morning.”
“Members also appreciate the excessive length of time it takes for many cases to be completed and the need for reasonable measures to be taken to streamline the system. <BR /> <BR />The Committee noted that figures provided by the PPS indicated that very few defendants who were the subject of committal proceedings were not committed for trial. In 2013, out of a total of 2,289 defendants, only six were not committed for trial by a district judge. This represents approximately 0·3% of defendants who were the subject of committal proceedings. In 2014, four of the 1,938 defendants who were the subject of committal proceedings were not committed for trial.”
“<BR /> <BR />Mr Allister argues that PI can save the public purse, but we also heard arguments that were the opposite of that. When the Committee considered this part of the Bill it noted that, whilst the proposals aim to streamline the procedure for moving business from the Magistrates’ Court to the Crown Court, and are expected to result in some improvement in efficiency, the Department’s stated primary driver for abolishing preliminary investigations and mixed committals is to reduce the impact on vulnerable victims and witnesses. <BR /> <BR />From its inquiry into the criminal justice services available to victims and witnesses, the Committee is fully aware of the concerns raised by, and the experiences of, victims and witnesses in relation to having to give evidence twice.”
“The PPS views the committal process as a luxury and a historical anomaly that no longer exists in other parts of Great Britain, and which is expensive to the public purse not only in the extra cost to legal aid but also in the burden it places on the PPS. The director highlighted that defendants will retain the right to challenge the sufficiency of the prosecution’s evidence through the Crown Court’s no bill procedure pre-trial, or through the trial process itself, and viewed the proposals as rebalancing the process and providing greater protection for victims and witnesses. He also provided examples of cases where committal had added considerable delay to the progress of the proceedings or impacted negatively on witnesses.”
“<BR /> <BR />In contrast, however, Victim Support told the Committee that the experience of being cross-examined on one occasion is highly stressful for victims and witnesses and that to be required to give evidence more than once compounds the anxiety and is contrary to the interests of justice. That is a point that the Deputy Chair made in an intervention to Mr Allister. It has long been a firmly held opinion that the abolition of preliminary investigations and mixed committals would represent a significant step in addressing some of the considerable trauma and distress experienced by victims and witnesses of crime during the court process. <BR /> <BR />The PPS also welcomed the proposed changes, believing that they could result in an eight- to 10-week saving in the trial process.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Law Society does not support the assertion that committal proceedings slow down the process, and, whilst it indicated that it understood the concerns expressed about vulnerable witnesses, it highlighted the point that special rules already exist to ensure that they are not unduly subjected to the stress of having to give evidence. It expressed the view to the Committee that a more measured approach would be for district judges to have limited discretion to allow the calling of key witnesses where they believe that it would be in the interests of justice to do so, and that appears to be what Mr Allister is seeking to achieve with his amendments.”
“<BR /> <BR />I turn now to clauses 7, 8 and 9, which would abolish preliminary investigations and mixed committals, and the amendments by Mr Allister to introduce new clauses 7A and 8A, which, as he outlined, are intended to retain preliminary investigations in some limited circumstances, in what he described as the "interests of justice". There was a divergence of views in the evidence received by the Committee, with the PPS and Victim Support Northern Ireland both supporting the Department's proposed changes but ultimately wanting to see committal proceedings abolished altogether, while the Law Society is of the view that the proposals are flawed.”
“The detail in the Committee's report demonstrates that we considered all aspects of the Bill and the range of proposed amendments in a full and thorough manner. I also thank all the organisations and individuals that provided very useful written and oral evidence and the Department of Justice officials, who provided additional information and clarification throughout the process. Of course, I also put on record my thanks to the Committee staff, who ensured that members were in a position to fulfil their obligations to scrutinise the Bill.”
“Written evidence was sought from interested organisations and individuals, as well as from the Department of Justice and the Department of Health. The Committee received 52 submissions and a significant number of petitions and responses from individuals on the amendment that would restrict lawful abortions to National Health Service premises. The Committee took oral evidence from a wide range of organisations and officials from both Departments. The Attorney General and the Director of Public Prosecutions also attended to assist the Committee's consideration of specific issues. <BR /> <BR />I put on record my thanks to the members of the Committee for their contributions to the discussion on, and consideration of, the Bill at Committee Stage.”
“As well as the main clauses, the Committee also considered a wide range of amendments provided by the Department of Justice, both at the start of the Bill's Committee Stage and during it, some of which relate to provisions in the Bill, while others are on unrelated matters. The Committee also considered two proposals for amendments from the Attorney General for Northern Ireland and a proposed amendment from Mr Jim Wells, which he had provided when he was a member of the Justice Committee. <BR /> <BR />Given the wide range of policy areas covered by the provisions and the proposed amendments, the Committee spent a considerable amount of time undertaking detailed scrutiny, and it sought a wide range of views to assist in its deliberations.”
“With your indulgence, Mr Deputy Speaker, before addressing the amendments, I wish to make some general remarks about the Bill. <BR /> <BR />The Committee welcomes the Bill, particularly as it seeks to improve services and facilities for victims and witnesses. A number of its provisions and a number of the amendments brought forward by the Minister are as a direct result of the findings and recommendations of the Committee's inquiry into the criminal justice services available to victims and witnesses of crime, which was completed back in 2012. <BR /> <BR />The Committee also supports the Bill's other main aims, which are to speed up the justice system and to improve the efficiency and effectiveness of key aspects of it.”
“Does the Minister agree that it is important that we get a stadium the size of Casement Park, with the associated capacity, for Northern Ireland to bid for major events such as the Rugby World Cup in 2023 and other events? On that basis, is she confident that there will be a planning application submitted at an early stage, and is she confident that that will get approval so that we have a capacity of in and around 30,000, which will allow us to bid for major sporting events?”
“How can we ensure that victims are part of that process to ensure that they feel that they are seeing justice being served rather than what is sometimes, I think unfairly, described as going soft on justice?”
“<BR /> <BR />Secondly, on a point that I raised with him during Justice questions yesterday, I very much welcome the investment in early interventions that he outlined in his statement, as I believe that it is the right approach to take. However, much of the early intervention work will have to fall to other Departments, such as Education and Health. How can the commitment of those Departments to this work be maintained, given the budget pressures that they face, and how can some of these issues be mainstreamed rather than funded through individual specified projects? <BR /> <BR />Finally, I support much of the work on discretion and diversion; I think that it works much better.”
“I welcome the statement. Indeed, it uses much of the language that I too have been using around focusing on outcomes, early interventions, developing a smarter justice system, innovative approaches and using the squeeze on public finances as a springboard for doing things differently. Indeed, that has been the focus of the Justice Committee in recent times as well. <BR /> <BR />I hope that the Speaker will give me the flexibility offered to the Chairman to ask a couple of questions. First, when does the Minister expect to see actual changes on the ground? Will he give a commitment that, where innovative ideas and practices have been identified and have been evidenced to work, he will implement those in conjunction with the Committee for Justice immediately rather than waiting for a final report from the steering group?”
“I thank the Minister for that answer. It is a stark reality that between 55% and 65% of young people who are offending have some sort of communication issue that may well have led to the circumstances that they are in. Back in September 2013, the Minister, along with the Health Minister at the time, funded a speech and language therapist for Woodlands. Given that funding for that has been cut, would the Minister consider doing that again to help those young people to try to turn their life around?”
“I think that everybody in the House would rather see ex-offenders getting proper jobs when released from prison rather than living a life on welfare at the cost of the taxpayer. How much more difficult is it to achieve that goal when budgets are being cut for organisations such as NIACRO, which does so much good work with former prisoners and employers to try to find them meaningful employment?”
“The Minister previously announced that the Routes Europe conference will be coming to Belfast in 2017. Will the Minister outline just how important that conference coming to Belfast is and how previous hosts have benefited from not only the amount of people coming over for the conference but in attracting new routes in the future?”
“I take it that that rather long answer is a longer way of saying, "No, they have not been applied proportionally across Northern Ireland". Given that that is the case, will the Minister perhaps outline the disparity between the lowest price per trip and the highest price per trip across Northern Ireland and across the providers?”
“Thank you, again. Innovation in justice, and innovative policies, have the opportunity to produce better outcomes that are more cost-effective to the public purse. One of the areas in the court system where there are significant difficulties is the clogging up of the courts. Has the Minister had discussions with the judiciary or the Court Service about how we can digitise the Court Service and, perhaps, look at online courts for low-level disputes?”
“The Minister will be aware that there are campaigns in a number of council areas to keep local courthouses open. Does he see any reason why local councils cannot work with the Department and the Courts Service to utilise those facilities better so that courthouses could become community facilities in the evenings and be used by local community groups or by councils themselves? That could be a way of keeping those facilities in local areas.”
“The Minister spoke about a number of issues. I think that it is important that we look at whether fuel stations that are selling illegal fuel should be named and shamed. I do not buy the argument that they are changing their supplier every other week. Therefore, I think that they have a responsibility to ensure that the product that they are selling is legal and has its duty paid. We will watch progress on that with interest. It is important that we do not take our eye off the ball on this issue. There is concern across the community, and I look forward to more convictions in the future. I certainly give my support to the law enforcement agencies in tackling the issue.”
“However, Mr Allister pointed out that many ordinary farmers are caught out in some of their activities by satellite imagery. He asked why similar technology cannot be used to see plants where large-scale lorries and tankers are coming and going at different points of the day. I am quite sure that there is technology that could see where that kind of activity is going on and that would help law enforcement agencies to bring those people to book. He said that it was inconceivable that this level of fuel laundering was going on with nobody knowing about it. He finished by calling for tough guidelines in the event of a conviction. I am sure that all law-abiding people would concur with that.”
“Those again show the sophistication in some of the plants that are making this illegal fuel. <BR /> <BR />Mr Patsy McGlone talked about the poison of the toxins that are released, and he made the important point that, where this activity is going on, people are poisoning their own communities. It is the people who live beside them and who the launderers are friendly with and, in many cases, related to who are suffering from these toxins being put into their waterworks. I think that that it is an important point. He also, in common with other Members, asked why nobody is ever at the fuel plants when they are discovered. <BR /> <BR />Mr Allister spoke about a number of issues. The Minister highlighted the difficulty in catching people in the act, as these plants operate independently, are automated and can be unattended.”
“That is hugely important. <BR /> <BR />Mr McCartney said that he supported his colleague Mr Lynch's comments, and he warned the House against media reports with unnamed sources. He did not, of course, question that this type of activity is going on, nor did he say that he would support the NCA in tackling it. That is important to note as well. <BR /> <BR />My colleague Jonathan Craig, a member of the Policing Board, of course, talked about the role that fuel laundering profits played during the Troubles. He said that those profits were used to bankroll the Provisional IRA. That point was also made by Mr Alban Maginness who, in his conclusion, talked about the lucrative nature of the business and the complex escape tunnels, lookout posts and material at the fuel laundering plants.”
“I know that, in a House of Commons debate, many Members pointed to some of the technology that the Brazilian Government were able to use to help to counter the illegal fuel trade there. Mr Dickson, in concluding, called on Sinn Féin to "tell us what you know." I think that many Members would agree with that. <BR /> <BR />Lord Morrow said that it is a tragedy that we are discussing this issue here once again. It shows that little improvement has been made. He asked whether south Armagh is a no-go area for law enforcement agencies and whether HMRC is too scared to go there. If HMRC is to do its job properly, it is important that it is given support from other law enforcement agencies. I think that we all want to see HMRC go to areas of south Armagh where perhaps it is not particularly welcome and tackle this issue head on.”
“The cost of fuel has come down of late, although I suspect that that will not last for too long with the manipulation of the market in the Middle East. The people who are involved in this sort of activity are making huge profits. That will continue, and I do not think that that situation would deter them. <BR /> <BR />Mr Dickson and the Minister talked about the fuel markers, but Mr Bell pointed out at the beginning that there are serious concerns about whether the type of marker that the Government favour is the best available. As the Minister acknowledged, I mentioned the lack of roadside capability. I think that that is important if we are to tackle this properly.”
“<BR /> <BR />Mr Dickson, who along with me tabled the motion on the NCA that was successfully passed at the beginning of February, said that he hopes that the tide has turned, pointing out the number of fuel plants that have been dismantled and the fact that the cost of fuel is coming down. As much as I would like to agree with Mr Dickson — I hope that he is right — I will point out that a number of individuals are concerned at the type of activity that is going on and that, although we are discovering fuel plants and shutting them down, we are not necessarily seeing convictions. I think that the public would want to see fuel plants being shut down and people being brought in front of the courts and put behind bars.”
“One would imagine that that logic would follow. Indeed, when Sinn Féin talks about those involved in terrorism today being wrong, it follows that those involved in terrorism in the past were also wrong. I am quite sure that that point will not be lost on the public. <BR /> <BR />Mr Beggs made the point about the dangers of fuel laundering to public health. He talked about the toxins that are released into the countryside and the water supply. He appealed for those with information to bring it forward. Indeed, to follow on from the point, given that Sinn Féin has said that those involved in this sort of activity are criminals, it follows that it should also be encouraging people to bring information forward to the police. Mr Beggs asked what is going on with law enforcement, which is a theme that, as I said, many Members raised.”
“I will resist talking about the impact that plain packaging will have on making it easier for counterfeit tobacco products in Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />In Mr Lynch's contribution, he condemned those involved in illegal fuel laundering and called them criminals, but, interestingly, he did not say that he would support the NCA in trying to put those criminals behind bars. That is where Sinn Féin is becoming increasingly isolated in the community; it will not support the NCA in tackling not just fuel laundering but a range of crimes that are affecting people across Northern Ireland. Mr Beggs talked about —”
“He said that it is important that no individual or organisation be off limits. He suggested that this piece of work is a test for the NCA and that the public will be looking for action. That is right. He talked about the plants that are active in south Armagh, the 50 tons of waste being dumped and their capability of producing significant amounts of illegal fuel annually and yet only one arrest has been made. If anything comes out of the debate today, it is our frustration that we do not see convictions of those involved in that illegal activity. He also talked about the need to seize the assets of criminality; something that the Minister mentioned in his contribution as well. He also talked about some of the other counterfeit materials, whether that be tobacco or alcohol.”
“<BR /> <BR />Mr Bell talked about it being a crime with consequences. That is a hugely important comment; it is not a victimless crime. The profits being made from fuel laundering quite often fund illegal terrorist activity; they fund organisations that are intent on destroying and murdering people in our community. He also raised the concern about the lack of prosecutions and convictions. That theme ran through the contributions of all Members this afternoon. <BR /> <BR />Mr Attwood, in proposing the amendment, which we, on this side of the House, are comfortable with supporting, spoke of the importance of the NCA now operating in Northern Ireland. That is a positive contribution that the SDLP has made. It is unfortunate that it took so long, but we are there now; that is the important thing.”
“Having followed Mr Bell's Twitter feed and his electioneering, I do not think that there is a breed of dog that he has not talked to in his research for the debate today. On a serious note, it adds to the level of cynicism amongst members of the public if they feel that this sort of crime is going on, they know who is involved in it, but they do not see those individuals being brought before the courts and, ultimately, being put behind bars. Indeed, as one Member mentioned, when we hear reports of the fact that, before the law authorities arrive at one of the plants, laptops have been destroyed and papers have been removed, it suggests that somebody was tipped off. That adds to the cynicism that there is, perhaps, in the public; I have certainly picked up on it during the debate here today.”