William Humphrey
North Belfast · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I listened intently to all the contributions in the debate, and I have to say that there was a fair degree of hypocrisy in some of the things that I listened to.”
“On this Commonwealth Day, I commend the Minister, in her absence, for her programme. Earlier today, we planted a tree to mark Her Majesty's platinum jubilee close to Lord Craigavon's tomb. Are there plans for the jubilee celebrations across our education sector to be extended to uniformed organisations?”
“I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. I thank her for her candour to the House today in setting out clearly and very explicitly the dangers that this bad, and badly drafted, Bill will have for education in Northern Ireland and the ramifications for our young people.”
“Thank you very much. Only last night, I had a conversation with the chair of a board of governors. I have also met school teachers and principals. Quite frankly, I am rather perturbed by what the Member is saying.”
“I am grateful to the Member for giving way. He and other Members have made the point that the Bill will lead to discrimination. Does the Member agree that there is no such thing as positive discrimination?”
“The Member makes a very valid point. Earlier today, we debated the Climate Change (No. 2) Bill. A number of people who opposed the Minister's Bill made the point that it took so long — over two years — to get to today, yet they want to rush this Bill through. The same parties that made those points have accepted that this Bill is flawed.”
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“As with everything, Ministers are faced with difficult challenges and competing choices, and COVID presents them with a particularly difficult challenge. Many share the view that children are best placed in the classroom. I agree with that, not just for their education but for their general well-being, mindfulness, social interaction and development. I share that view and I would like to think that that view is shared across the House. Others take the view that remote learning can and does work. I have no doubt that it can and does, given the right circumstances, familial support, technology, space and environment, but what of those young children who cannot have those resources and that support in place? <BR /> <BR />Recently, I became aware of a young couple in north Belfast who have three children with autism.”
“<BR /> <BR />As a governor in two schools, I commend the principals, teachers, classroom assistants and all who are involved in the day-to-day running of our schools for the work that they have done across education in Northern Ireland. I also commend school governors for the difficult decisions that they have had to make. Each and every one of them is to be thanked and commended by the young people and their parents for the role that they have played and the leadership that they have provided in our community. <BR /> <BR />Like many Members, as stated by Mr Bradley, I have received much correspondence on the issue from teachers, trade unions and parents. It is fair to say that it is a mixed bag.”
“Slowing down and the elimination of this awful pandemic must be our aim, and we surely must work together to do so. Collaborative working across government is essential. The pandemic has forced many Ministers across jurisdictions into the most difficult and unenviable choices. The view of the education sector on school closures is uppermost, I believe, in the Minister's thoughts and decision-making. I commend all Ministers. Surely we are all, sadly, too keen and too swift to criticise, and in this House in particular. As I have said in Committee, I find that, sometimes, members are keen to criticise Ministers from other parties, as opposed to their own. Each and every Minister has difficult decisions to make.”
“I thank the Minister for coming to the House and for coming to the Education Committee on countless occasions. I am not sure where the myth that the Minister does not make himself available to the Committee has come from. It is simply not true, and I thank the Minister for his attendance. I also congratulate Mr Derek Baker, who recently retired from the position of permanent secretary in the Department of Education and who did so much for our young people's education across Northern Ireland, for the honour that he received in Her Majesty's New Year's Honours List that was announced last night. <BR /> <BR />COVID has presented challenges to all across our nation. Indeed, no home has been left untouched, some of them tragically with the loss of life.”
“I thank the Minister for his statement. Minister, I welcome your commitment to the review and particularly to the establishment of a panel on educational underachievement, which is very important and is a policy that I hugely endorse and support. Will 18 months for the deliberations be long enough for the panel to conclude its work and report?”
“I join the Minister in thanking all the staff in our schools across Northern Ireland for their work and dedication in this most difficult year. <BR /> <BR />Minister, I welcome the engagement; it is hugely important. You mentioned that no child in Northern Ireland should be disadvantaged across the United Kingdom. You also mentioned mitigations for students who have had to endure significant remote learning or, sadly, have been ill during COVID. I ask the Minister to confirm that he is looking at other scoping mitigations, on top of those that are already in place from CCEA, that would ease the already difficult circumstances that young people have found themselves in throughout the pandemic?”
“I am grateful to the Member for giving way. The Member will know that I have made that point before. In terms of messaging and getting the message out clearly and consistently to the people of Northern Ireland, having these regulations discussed, debated and agreed at the time when they are going to be released is hugely important. Otherwise, it causes confusion.”
“Given the Member's response that the Commission has been unable to reach agreement on the display of artefacts, emblems and paintings in Parliament Buildings, what position has the Commission taken on some of those going out on loan, particularly next year as Northern Ireland celebrates it centenary, which is important to many of us?”
“Last Thursday, the permanent secretary of the Department of Finance and the head of the Northern Ireland Civil Service HR division were before the Public Accounts Committee and discussed that very issue. One of the points that a number of Committee members made was that the targets, deadlines and productivity of staff working remotely have to be managed. Is the Commission convinced that that has happened and continues to happen?”
“The Member has answered part of my question. I declare an interest as a member of the Scout Association. Uniformed organisations have a hugely important role in Northern Ireland: the Scouts, BB, GB and Guides. It is important that their role and contribution to society is reflected in the Youth Assembly, which must be reflective and representative of Northern Ireland society. How can we ensure that that happens?”
“I ask the Minister, in responding for her colleague Mr Poots — to whom I, too, sent my regards for a speedy recovery this morning — what more the Department, working with local councils, can do to ensure that, if such a situation arises again — sadly, it is happening more often in Northern Ireland — there is a more effective and speedy response.”
“I thank the Minister for her answer. Over the summer, some 200 tons of illegal rubbish was dumped at Edenderry industrial mill on the Crumlin Road in my constituency of North Belfast. That led to a plague of rats, a swarm of flies and noxious smells, with people feeling and taking ill. Belfast City Council was too slow in its response, and the Northern Ireland Environment Agency was somewhat secretive in passing information to and sharing information with elected representatives. The situation simply was not good enough, and it took an intervention from the Minister to resolve it.”
“I agree with the Member for North Down. As a school governor, I have had to face similar situations. <BR /> <BR />In the light of the protections that the Minister talked about in value for money for the Northern Ireland taxpayer, does he believe that the Central Procurement Directorate provides value for money for Northern Ireland plc?”
“In relation to the Northern Ireland Audit Office's recent reports on capacity, capability and attendance in Civil Service employment, how does the Department plan to take forward the recommendations — is he going to take forward the recommendations? — put forward by the Comptroller and Auditor General for Northern Ireland in those reports?”
“The Minister is right: there are difficult decisions that all Ministers have to take on this hugely serious issue. <BR /> <BR />Apart from worship and prayer, many people attend church for solace and comfort. There is real anger and anxiety at the decision to close churches. Why was the decision taken to close churches despite steps taken by churches across Northern Ireland to purchase PPE and other equipment? What evidence was given for the closure?”
“It is important that, since the Member invoked the evidence that we took at the PAC last week, he then mentioned the Finance Minister and the Economy Minister, neither of whom gave evidence to the Committee. He may have heard that at another Committee, but he did not hear it at the Public Accounts Committee. I want that to be put on the record for the House.”
“It is important that, since the Member invoked the evidence that we took at the PAC —.”
“I thank the Minister for his answers so far. I declare an interest as a governor at Edenbrooke Primary School, which has a nurture unit, and I thank the Minister for extending that to Glenwood Primary School. The Minister said in an earlier answer that he is working under financial constraints. Will he look at the outcomes of the expert panel that is looking at educational underachievement? Given that early interventions are cheaper and better, perhaps some money can be unlocked and freed following the publication of such a report.”
“I thank the Minister for his statement and his answers so far. You mentioned the expert panel to examine educational underachievement. I understand that that panel is to report in the spring of next year. That is a hugely significant issue in north Belfast and greater Shankill. Can the Minister update the House on the progress that the panel has made to date?”
“I was in the city centre on Saturday morning, and, quite honestly, the footfall was very poor. Traders are very concerned: I met them and heard that from them at first hand.”
“I thank the Minister for her answer. Recently, I met the Lord Mayor, the chief executive of Belfast City Council and Michael Stewart, the president of Belfast Chamber of Commerce. Over the last two to three years, Belfast retail has had a dreadful time in the marketplace, given the Bank Buildings fire and, of course, this year, COVID. City retailers are struggling. They need help and support. The joined-upness that the Minister referred to in her answer is absolutely urgent. Will the Minister ensure that that joined-upness will be put in place as soon as possible? Can consideration be given to supporting high street traders, particularly in the city that I represent in this place, in the run-up to Christmas, which is so vital to our city centre economy?”
“<BR /> <BR />Having considered the reasons for the Excess Votes, the Committee recommends that the Assembly provides additional resources, as summarised for each Department or other public body in part 1 of the Northern Ireland Estimates 2016-17 Statement of Excesses that was laid before the Assembly on 13 October 2020. However, it is important to stress that the scale of some of the excesses suggest to the Public Accounts Committee that there is room for greater precision in budget setting. We, therefore, welcome the fact that the Comptroller and Auditor General is conducting a separate investigation of the operation of the budgetary process in Northern Ireland. We look forward to the outcome of that work.”
“<BR /> <BR />The specific case was the Department of Health's Health and Social Care (HSC) pension scheme, which incurred a resource excess of £2·22 million because the current service cost figure used in the budgetary process had been underestimated as a result of the actual payroll details not being available at the time. We understand that the Department has advised the Comptroller and Auditor General that it will continue to liaise with the Government Actuary's Department to determine what further reviews can be carried out when the spring Supplementary Estimate forecast is being prepared. They will continue to work closely together to scrutinise forecasts to ensure that they are as robust as possible.”
“The Committee noted that eight of those excesses were technical in nature, as the mechanism to regularise revised resource and cash requirements was not available to Departments. The Public Accounts Committee notes that, in the majority of cases, if the Assembly had been sitting, those Excesses could have been regularised in-year through the Supplementary Estimates process. The remaining case involved other budgetary issues that would have resulted in an Excess Vote even if the Assembly had approved the spring Supplementary Estimate.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Committee reported to the Assembly on the Excess Votes (Northern Ireland) 2016-17 on 8 July 2020. I will outline the Committee’s consideration of those Excess Votes. First, it is important to note that, due to the dissolution of the Assembly in January 2017, the process of considering the approval of the 2016-17 spring Supplementary Estimates by way of a Budget Bill could not take place. As a direct consequence, a number of Departments incurred resource and cash excesses. Specifically, in 2016-17, nine Departments incurred Excess Votes. Seven Departments incurred resource excesses totalling £183·12 million and six Departments incurred cash excesses totalling £112·62 million. There were no Excess Votes in 2015-16.”
“As Chair of the Public Accounts Committee, I will address the Supply resolution for the Northern Ireland Estimates 2016-17 Statement of Excesses. <BR /> <BR />On 2 July and 8 July of this year, the Public Accounts Committee considered the reports by the Comptroller and Auditor General on the resource accounts of Departments that had exceeded the limits of expenditure authorised by the Northern Ireland Assembly. That is part of the Northern Ireland Assembly’s control framework over government spending. It is the role of the Public Accounts Committee to scrutinise the reasons behind each Department's excess of allocated resources and to report to the Assembly on whether it has any objections to making good the reported excesses.”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. The Minister referred to reconvening the Procurement Board and its construct, but how will he populate the board? Will he assure the House that people from private companies will sit on it and that its membership will not just be drawn from the public sector and government?”
“Minister, you will be aware that many people across Northern Ireland are in fear of their jobs being lost at the end of October when the furlough scheme comes to an end. A couple of weeks ago, I asked you about discussions that you were having with Her Majesty's Treasury about the continuation of that scheme. Obviously, it has made its position much clearer. Can you assure people who face that decision at the end of this month that you and the Executive are doing all that you can to secure jobs and provide inward investment from Her Majesty's Treasury to ensure that those jobs are protected and that their families are protected?”
“I thank the Minister for his answers so far. I welcome the new and increased funding that he mentioned and the "joined-upness" that he has explained to the House around the issue at hand, which is hugely important and which is growing in our community. In order to ensure that that "joined-upness" works to its maximum, does he agree that it is important that the Department works not just with schools but with specialist community organisations such as Extern, Greater Shankill Alternatives and Integrated Services for Children and Young People's greater Shankill team in my area to allow young people who are working with those organisations to be reached?”
“I thank the First Minister for her answers so far. Can I take the opportunity on this, 28 September, to wish the First Minister a very happy Ulster Day? <BR /> <BR />Many Members will have been contacted by constituents who are concerned about cancer care for their loved ones or, indeed, for themselves. Is the First Minister satisfied that progress is being made on access to non-COVID treatments in our health service?”
“It will not make it perfect, but it will improve it. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I oppose the motion.”
“The protocol is not perfect, but this Bill, which is going through the House of Commons, will improve it.”
“I have given way to you twice. I am not giving way to you again, so do not even think about it. You are Brit-bashing, but the reality is that the vast majority of the people of Northern Ireland want to remain part of the United Kingdom. It is your job to convince them otherwise, including economic unionists. You are not able to do that, because you cannot. That is the truth of the matter. As we move forward, I want to see business in Northern Ireland protected. I want to see the Union protected: the Union of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. That is where success and everything else flows from for Northern Ireland.”
“You may welcome that, but the fact of the matter is that I hear much talk about the damage to the United Kingdom and to international law. What about the damage to the free movement of people, the free movement of trade and the equality of rights for people that came from the Acts of Union of 1707 and 1800? What about those? When you are Brit-bashing, and on that basis I agree with Mr Aiken, and attacking the Prime Minister, let me be very clear —.”
“<BR /> <BR />We stand for free movement and free trade. We want to see the free movement of goods across the North Channel and the Irish Sea. Northern Ireland businesses must be given unfettered access to our largest market, Great Britain. The Bill is helpful in that regard. It is not a panacea, but it is helpful. Northern Ireland parties therefore need to decide on this basis: do you want what is best for Northern Ireland, what is best for the Northern Ireland people and Northern Ireland business and what is best for your constituents and mine, or do you want to disadvantage permanently Northern Ireland business? <BR /> <BR />The withdrawal agreement is bad for Northern Ireland economically. It is also bad for Northern Ireland constitutionally.”
“You are contradicting your party leader and are not on the same page as him. Yesterday, we even had the potato famine invoked as a great wrong done to Ireland. Of course it was, but we are in 2020. Let us be clear: the reality is that anything that hinders or impedes Northern Ireland plc trading from Northern Ireland to GB and in return is not good for Northern Ireland business. As Mr Givan said earlier, Northern Ireland business organisations are not on the same page as the parties across the way. <BR /> <BR />I understand nationalists and republicans supporting the protocol, because they want to destroy and end the Union. They cannot cost the utopian united Ireland that they talk about. They cannot cost it: none of them can. They have never been able to do it. You cannot, because it is simply impossible.”
“That is why my party rejected her proposals, and where is she now? <BR /> <BR />The reality is that that great golden cow of the Belfast Agreement that your party sets up there — it is absolutely untouchable; we must not damage the Belfast Agreement — but, in January, the SDLP leader in the House of Commons talked about joint authority, saying that we will not go back to direct rule — such was his arrogance — we will have joint authority. Your party voted in support of the Belfast Agreement. I did not. The principle of consent is absolutely enshrined in that agreement. Where is the consent for joint authority? I will give way if you tell me from where the SDLP gets the consent of the unionist people for joint authority.”
“The only person talking about a border on this island of Ireland — the frontier between Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic — was the former Prime Minister of the Irish Republic when he claimed at the World Economic Forum last year that he could see customs returning and uniformed people — police and army — potentially returning to the Irish border. No one in the United Kingdom Government, in the Northern Ireland Executive or in this House wants to see a hard border, so let us nail that. That is just nonsense. <BR /> <BR />Then, we also had the situation on the Sinn Féin Benches that the peace process was potentially being undermined. By whom is it being undermined? I will give way to those who want to tell me by whom. The reality is that the Belfast Agreement —. Are you going to undermine it?”
“Here we are, act two, take two of this drama, and it is very clear that the Northern Ireland protocol is not good for Northern Ireland plc. The Democratic Unionist Party at Westminster opposed and consistently voted against that legislation. We warned Her Majesty's Government, and now we recognise and are glad to see that they accept the pitfalls and defects in those protocols. The Internal Market Bill is a step forward but it is not perfect. <BR /> <BR />Yesterday, in this House, during act one of this drama, we heard that many parties across the way were concerned about a hard border. Those who were claiming that there was going to be a hard border would not give way to those of us who were challenging who was going to make a hard border.”
“I thank the Minister for her answer. The Minister used the word "trust" but in many cases that trust is not there for very obvious and understandable reasons. I thank the Minister for her words but there can only be — and we will only support — the removal of those structures if that trust is there in both communities. I want to see society normalised as much as the Minister does, absolutely. Last night I visited lower Oldpark where three homes have been attacked in the last eight days — there have been sustained attacks on that community. People are very nervous right across North Belfast, where we had a very difficult summer, and the Department and the police must take those views, concerns and fears into consideration.”
“Will the Member agree that, far from anyone talking about extra measures on the border, the then Prime Minister of the Irish Republic, who is the current Deputy Prime Minister of the Irish Republic, said that he could deploy his army on the border with Northern Ireland?”
“Will the efficiency, effectiveness and cost-effectiveness of North/South bodies be included in this work?”
“I thank the Minister for his answers so far. It has already been said that the Northern Ireland Audit Office announced on 2 September that £2 billion extra had come from Her Majesty's Treasury. That is another benefit of being part of the Union. Has the Finance Minister had further conversations with Her Majesty's Treasury about the furlough scheme being extended in Northern Ireland as the scheme come close to its end and does he have the support of the Finance Ministers in Scotland and Wales for that?”
“Have you discussed those concerns with the chief executive of Translink, an arm's-length body within your Department, and with Mr Simon Hamilton, chief executive of the chamber of commerce?”
“Will this piece of work lead to a joined-up strategy with the Department for the Economy and the local centres for training and employment to ensure that those young people get meaningful and long-lasting employment?”
“Thank you, Principal Deputy Speaker, for the opportunity to ask a further question. I am disappointed by some of the questioning from some of the parties. It indicates to me that there is either no understanding, a lack of understanding or they simply do not take the issue as being important. The issue is hugely important to the wider working-class and hard-to-reach communities, and we should remember that. As the Minister set out, educational attainment is a key issue that is hugely important for our young people. <BR /> <BR />Given that not every child wants to or has the ability to continue on to third-level education and university, we need to consider effective training that leads to meaningful employment.”
“<BR /> <BR />Minister, the work will start in September, and, if I heard you correctly, you said that it would complete in May 2021. This is obviously hugely important work, and I commend the panel and wish them well with it. We have had reports before, so can you assure the House and, more importantly, the young people in the community that the proposals that will come from the panel will be implemented and will make a difference on the ground?”
“Thank you, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker. Like you, I come from a working-class Protestant background, so I commend the Minister for his announcement today. This issue has been a running sore in our community for some time and is one that my party has wanted to deal with effectively. I commend the Minister, having spoken to him in January on his appointment, for this process. I also welcome the panel, some of whom I know. Mary Montgomery is the principal of the Boys' Model School. She is very committed to the community in North Belfast. Kathleen was an excellent leader and principal in Hazelwood Integrated College, and Jackie Redpath is an institution in these issues. I commend those three people in particular for their work.”
“I thank the Minister for his answers. Some folk have had to leave their homes, and people are complaining of being ill. This has caused major anxiety and stress in the local community, all in the middle of the COVID-19 pandemic. Therefore, I thank the Minister for his intervention. Can he assure me, and more importantly, assure the House and my constituents, that the nightmare that they have had to endure over the last number of weeks will end this week? Work has started today, and we welcome that, but will the matter be put to bed this week?”
“I thank the House for allowing the question to be asked today. <BR /> <BR />Minister, the communities in Woodvale and mid-Shankill have been plagued by rats and infested with flies and have had to endure dreadful smells over the past number of weeks. Belfast City Council and the Northern Environment Agency were far too slow to react. Assurances were given that clearance would start before the Twelfth holidays, yet attempts were made on Saturday to dump more material in the area. I ask the Minister whether his investigation will be robust and provide reassurance to the people living in the area.”