Judith Cochrane
East Belfast · Alliance Party · Northern Ireland
“<BR /> <BR />If I may, Mr Speaker, I want to mention one other thing that gave me some added focus as the Bill progressed. Many of you will know that, just as I was launching my consultation, I got the news that Dad was seriously ill.”
“They had a very heavy workload but made sure that they made the time to engage with me and to complete the report. I formally presented to the Committee three times, once after no sleep and wearing the same clothes as the previous day after pulling an all-nighter here, but these things happen when you give yourself tight timescales and ar…”
“Thank you, Mr Speaker. I thank all the Members for their engagement tonight. If they could all write me a job reference, that would be really helpful. If all that is true, I should be very employable. I also thank everybody else who has engaged with me during the stages of my Licensing Bill.”
“I might even manage to deliver on the goal of having a clean, tidy house, although I cannot imagine that Jonny will let me take over the role of cooking again just yet.”
“I would like to express my condolences to the family, friends and colleagues of the prison officer who, we heard, tragically died today. As we complete this Assembly term, it is clear that there is still so much to be done to stamp out dissident republicanism.”
“I thank the Member for his question. The Member will be aware that, in the recently completed roof project, the Assembly Commission took the opportunity to refurbish or replace all of the existing roof-mounted mechanical and electrical services and, where appropriate, to incorporate renewable technologies in the scheme, specifically photo…”
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“It has similar costs and savings to some of the other options, but the additional freedom in relation to the presence of children would have certain benefits in that no applications would have to be made consistently for children's certificates and children or young people in the stadium, when accompanied by an adult, can remain in the licensed parts of the premises until later in the evening. That is particularly useful if a match has a later kick-off time, for example. The additional benefits of this option would be for the stadium to operate in line with its full business model and be able to bid for, and host, international sporting events.”
“to the definition of "Places of public entertainment". The third is to amend the licensing legislation to allow stadia of regional or national importance to be categories of premises which can obtain a licence. The fourth is to amend liquor licensing legislation as per the third option but to include amendments to remove some of the existing rules for access by children in order to recognise the unique family entertainment offered at those stadia. The fifth option is to do nothing, pending a review of liquor licensing legislation. <BR /> <BR />I made a proposal of the fourth option.”
“Essentially, I set out a number of options and then explained the proposal, along with details of exactly how the 1996 Order would be amended. That was to keep the consultation focused and try to achieve a specific task, rather than open up the whole debate on licensing, which has been consulted on recently by the Department. <BR /> <BR />In developing the legislation, I considered the following options. The first option is to do nothing. The second is to amend the legislation to add:”
“If any of you were at Kingspan a number of weeks ago in the wind, rain and hail, you would know that it is a very interesting conversation to have with parents to tell them that their children must stand outside whilst those parents can go inside to a bit of shelter, due to the demarcation of the licensed parts. <BR /> <BR />The Bill, therefore, would allow the stadia to apply for a full licence, and it would also relax the restrictions on the presence of young people in the licensed areas, putting our outdoor stadia on the same operational footing as an indoor arena in Belfast, meaning that they could deliver family entertainment in a controlled environment. <BR /> <BR />Because of the precedent that had already been set by the 2004 Order, I was able to progress a very specific consultation process.”
“The first of our three stadia of national importance to have completed its redevelopment, known as Kingspan, still has to rely on occasional licences to allow the sale and consumption of alcohol on the premises. To obtain an occasional licence, an existing licensee, which is usually a catering company, must apply to the courts for every single match, with decisions granted often very close to the time of the event. Under that occasional licence, young people, even when there is a children's certificate in place, must be away from the licensed areas of the premises by 9.00 pm, which is often earlier than the end of a sporting event.”
“<BR /> <BR />Members might be aware that the building of the SSE Arena, formerly the Odyssey Arena, in Belfast triggered consideration of the need to amend the principal order in 2002. At that time, indoor arenas were a new facility for Northern Ireland, and they had also not been envisaged when the original licensing legislation was formulated. Therefore, they were not listed as a type of premises that could hold a licence. The issue was addressed by the Licensing (Indoor Arenas) (Northern Ireland) Order 2004, and had that Order been for indoor and outdoor arenas, I imagine I would not be standing here in front of you today. <BR /> <BR />As that was not the case, our current stadia cannot apply for a full licence.”
“Members of the IFA and GAA have set out why they would be supportive of the opportunity to apply for a licence at their stadia of regional or national importance. <BR /> <BR />Members will know that the legislation regulating the sale and consumption of intoxicating liquor is in the Licensing (Northern Ireland) Order 1996. There has been very little change to that legislation over the past 19 years. However, the hospitality industry has seen considerable change in consumer behaviour and demand. Furthermore, the £110 million redevelopment of our major sports stadia to become state-of-the-art facilities was not anticipated when the Licensing Order of 1996 was introduced. As such, an application for a liquor licence cannot be made for such premises.”
“<BR /> <BR />Hospitality Ulster has been very vocal in stating the need for Northern Ireland to modernise its liquor licensing laws to reflect the needs of modern times and underpin ambitious plans to grow the tourism and hospitality sectors. They believe that our national stadia play an important role in our society and provide important venues for sport and major events that support the growth of our tourism sector. <BR /> <BR />The Committee for Culture, Arts and Leisure recently held a meeting at the newly refurbished Kingspan Stadium. It understands the current licensing restrictions and welcomes the Bill in addressing the issue. The all-party group on rugby, of which I am a member, discussed the issue at meetings over the past number of months and is supportive of a change in the legislation.”
“I welcome the opportunity to move this stage of the Bill this evening. Its proposal lies with the investment by the Executive in our national and regional stadia, namely the Kingspan Stadium at Ravenhill, Casement Park and the national football stadium at Windsor Park, as well as in the dissatisfaction with current arrangements permitting the sale and consumption of alcohol. <BR /> <BR />A significant sum of public money has been invested in upgrading those stadia, and they have been or are being developed in such a way that means that they are versatile in their use and will be fully equipped to host sporting, education, business, tourism and leisure events. Licensing at the stadia has been raised with many Members by a number of organisations and through a variety of channels.”
“I thank the Member for his supplementary. The Commission uses private sector providers for catering and support services, broadcasting, some aspects of building maintenance and printing. The Commission also receives a wide range of services from the public sector, including policing, Central Procurement Directorate services, waste management services, stationery and office supplies, welfare and occupational health services and certain software supplies services.”
“Assembly secretariat officials will bring fully worked business cases on options for the future delivery of services to the Commission through the current in-house arrangements or through an NICS shared services approach. <BR /> <BR />The Commission has no plans at present for the further outsourcing of services to the private sector.”
“I thank the Member for his question. At the meeting of 24 June 2015, the Assembly Commission noted the commitment in the Stormont House Agreement to seek to extend the use of Northern Ireland Civil Service shared services across the wider public sector. <BR /> <BR />Naturally, the Assembly Commission is not part of the Northern Ireland Civil Service (NICS), nor was it a party to the Stormont House Agreement, but it agreed that it would consider whether any of its present business activities could be better delivered through a shared services approach. <BR /> <BR />Over the summer months, a series of meetings took place with shared services providers in the Civil Service, most notably in the fields of IT, human resources and finance.”
“I thank the Member for his question. As I said, the Commission was not involved in the arrangements, so all that I can go by is the Speaker's letter, which made it very clear that he was not continuing with the previous event or service, as you might refer to it, which had stemmed from when the Civil Service was the main occupant of the Building. The Speaker indicated that he was instead building on the format of the event that he had led in the Great Hall in 2014 when he was Principal Deputy Speaker. Like that event, this year's event had no music.”
“I thank the Member for her question. I think that it is true that the Commission's focus, through its engagement strategy, is to encourage people into the Building and to participate in events. There are no definitive records, but we believe that this year's remembrance event had a record attendance. The Commission very much welcomes that outcome and the inclusive approach that the Speaker has outlined.”
“I think that it will be for the next Speaker, in the next Assembly, to take the arrangements forward, but Members should take up the offer of the current Speaker to engage on the issue to ensure that future events are as open and inclusive as possible.”
“I thank the Member for his supplementary question. It would not be appropriate for the Commission to seek to take on an event that has previously been organised by the Speaker without the Speaker's request that it do so. The Member may or may not be aware that the Royal British Legion has not said that the national anthem needs to be an integral part of such an event. I understand, though, that the Speaker engaged with the Royal British Legion and, as a result, ensured that the Armistice Day event was held on 11 November and that it was in the Great Hall in order to allow more people to attend than in previous years.”
“I thank the Member for his question. The Assembly Commission had no role in or knowledge of the format of the act of remembrance held in the Great Hall on 11 November. As in other parliamentary institutions, the Speaker, in his representational role, determines the arrangements for keynote events that the Speaker hosts on behalf of the Assembly. As was the case under previous Speakers, the Assembly Commission is not involved in either these or in other events that the Speaker organises through his office. I am aware that the Speaker issued a very considered letter to all Members, and I refer the Member to it.”
“I beg to introduce the Licensing Bill [NIA 69/11-16], which is a Bill to make provision for the granting of licences to authorise the sale of intoxicating liquor at outdoor stadia.”
“I thank the Minister for her statement. In previous years, moneys have traditionally bridged financial gaps in health funding. We welcome the addition of the money announced today to Health. Has the Minister any concerns about trusts' capacity to spend that money this late in the financial year, as, obviously, we want all of it to be used to make a real difference to patients?”
“The Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment raised the matter of potential non-compliance with state aid rules. I appreciate that the proposer of the Bill has said that these are red herrings, however I feel that more work would need to be done to iron out some of those issues. <BR /> <BR />I believe that the Bill comes forward with a proposal that could be refined at later stages. In the absence of any legislation coming forward from the Department of Finance and Personnel, I would support its passage today in order to scrutinise it further.”
“Perhaps it would be necessary to further explore the mechanism by which rates are assessed to determine whether the 80% relief is excessive in clubs that benefit from extensive social facilities. I know — and it has already been discussed — that there is a view in the hospitality trade that clubs with successful social components are already getting a good deal. <BR /> <BR />Various Departments have raised a number of other issues in relation to the Bill. The Department of Justice, for instance, expressed concern that the 100% rate relief could, in certain circumstances, act as a passport for different treatment under criminal damage legislation. The Department of the Environment suggested that enhanced relief could have a potential impact on the de-rating grant.”
“Those clubs that are not registered as such would still be able to continue to avail themselves of the 80% rate relief. Furthermore, as has been discussed by the Member, the proposal would ensure that the 100% rate relief would not apply to the part of the club that sells alcohol other than by way of an occasional licence, but will apply to the rest of the club premises; for example, the gyms and changing rooms and stuff. <BR /> <BR />While I support the Bill in principle, a number of issues would require further input. However, given the tabling of the petition of concern, it is unclear whether we are going to have the opportunity to do that. Should the Bill pass Second Stage, I would question whether the proposal to exempt the bar area from receiving 100% relief actually goes far enough.”
“Like many businesses, organisations and households, our amateur sports clubs have faced greater overheads in recent years through, for example, the rise in utility costs. Furthermore, many of these clubs have been hit by the loss of sponsorship due to the general downturn in the economy and, as a result, are struggling to balance their books. <BR /> <BR />As has already been stated, under article 31 of the Rates (Northern Ireland) Order 1977, amateur sports clubs in Northern Ireland can qualify for a reduction in rates of 80%. To qualify for it, amateur sports clubs must comply with the requirement in article 31 and meet the required definition in the legislation. This Bill would seek to exempt the registered community amateur sports clubs from the payment of rates.”
“These clubs also provide activities for young people, and many are involved in positive community relations work. It is important, therefore, that we, as an Assembly, do all that we can to support these clubs in their growth and sustainability.”
“I welcome the opportunity to speak on the Rates (Relief for Community Amateur Sports Clubs) Bill. I commend the Member for his hard work thus far. I am taking a private Member's Bill through, and I know that, when you do not have the power of the Department behind you, it takes a lot of effort. <BR /> <BR />There is no doubt that our community amateur sports clubs play an important role in Northern Ireland. Having been a member of a women's hockey club for many years — some would say well past when my playing career should have ended — I know the positive impact that being involved in sports can have on physical and mental health.”
“I thank the Minister for her answer. Does the Minister agree that it might bring some reality to some parties if demands for expenditure to do one thing had to be balanced by requisite cuts to something else, rather than just top-slicing across Departments perhaps, or, indeed, by having to consider increasing revenue?”
“We could be even more creative with it, so that the Bill actually becomes much more operationally effective. For example, in the past I have proposed that junior Ministers should perhaps be reallocated to the larger Departments with a greater spend, such as the Department of Health. Perhaps there is an opportunity to put in place stricter rules to ensure that we have different levels of special advisers with varying salary scales and appropriate skills to ensure that they are better utilised to help deliver better public services, because that is what we are actually here for. So, I look forward to exploring this issue also at Committee Stage. <BR /> <BR />In closing, I support the passage of the Bill today to Committee Stage, but I think that there is work to be done on it to make it a really operationally effective Bill.”
“I think that the Bill gives us a good opportunity to consider this issue, and I look forward to discussing this further in Committee Stage to ensure that fair and appropriate measures and remuneration guidelines are in place. <BR /> <BR />Thirdly, there is the proposal to reduce the number of special advisers that exist in OFMDFM. We have said that there are currently 19 special advisers overall in the Assembly, and clause 2 deals specifically with cutting the number in OFMDFM from eight to four. Again, I welcome the opportunity that the Bill provides to consider this important issue. At face value, it seems that we are way out of kilter with other devolved institutions. However, I do think that the current proposal seems quite a blunt tool, and I think that more could be done in this area.”
“First, it ensures that special advisers are subject to the processes and procedures of the disciplinary code that operates in the Civil Service, and, given that a SpAd is treated as a temporary civil servant, that seems like a natural step. <BR /> <BR />Secondly, the Bill looks at the salaries of special advisers and makes proposals to limit them. Currently, as others have said, a SpAd can earn between 25% and 90% more than an MLA and in and around the same figure as senior civil servants. To some, this would appear to be excessive, given that they can be appointed without abiding by typical recruitment rules and the principle of merit, nor are they democratically elected. Others acknowledge the capabilities of many special advisers and argue that they work at a level that should attract current salary scales.”
“On behalf of the Alliance Party, I welcome the opportunity to speak on the Bill, which seeks to put in place stricter measures for the remuneration and accountability of special advisers, as well as to amend the number of special advisers who can be appointed by Ministers. Others have covered a number of the points, so I will try not to repeat them. Also, because I have a very sore throat, I will keep my comments shorter. <BR /> <BR />I support the principles of the Bill. When it comes to spending public money, any measure that seeks to improve transparency and efficiency should be welcomed, especially as we are keen to try to make savings in other areas. As others said, the Bill focuses on three key areas.”
“I thank the Minister for her answer. Given what she said and the level of public funding that has been allocated to redevelop the three major stadia, I have today launched a consultation on a proposal to allow the three stadia to apply for a liquor licence. Does the Minister agree that we should do all that we can to ensure that the stadia can maximise their potential?”
“I thank the Minister for her answer. The feedback across the media and from those of us who attended the events was that it was a very positive night. Did the Minister receive any correspondence on the potential lack of funding or reduced funding this year and the impact that it made? Will she therefore commit to continued funding in future years?”
“However, until we can show that we are financially responsible and can resolve our own budgetary issues, it is debatable whether the Treasury would be willing even to negotiate any further options for us at this time.”
“There is, of course, an Executive-agreed, DEL-led economic inactivity strategy that envisages subregional interventions in which the north-west would be a priority, but, unfortunately, there is no resource to deliver this at present. Perhaps some parties need to ask themselves why that is so. The failure to tackle the welfare reform issue and balance the Budget are compounding the problem, and Budget problems have also led to the suspension of many of DEL's specific additional employment interventions. <BR /> <BR />In conclusion, the UK Government are empowering cities to unleash their growth potential, and I believe that it is time for our cities to be more ambitious in achieving their aims.”
“If people want Magee to expand, it will mean a commitment of around £85 million every year. In the current financial climate, the only way for this to become viable is if we truly address the costs of a divided society, including, for instance, teacher training, but, of course, this was blocked by the same parties who say that they want money to be spent in certain areas but are not realistic about where that money will come from. <BR /> <BR />The skills pressures in the north-west are not just at higher levels; they are primarily at low and intermediate levels. In that regard, the north-west has a worse profile than Northern Ireland as a whole. It also has the highest unemployment and the highest economic inactivity.”
“The expansion of Magee was also a key element of the One Plan, but, despite some perceptions to the contrary, there was no specific commitment in the Programme for Government for the expansion of Magee. Despite starting with no specific budget for that expansion, the Minister for Employment and Learning has managed to expand the university sector. This has been the biggest increase in the size of the campus at Magee for many years, but, of course, it could now be under threat again from university cuts. <BR /> <BR />The Alliance Party supports the expansion of Magee and the higher education sector in general, but there is already a £55 million shortfall in higher education investment, and the recurrent cost of an expanded Magee would be around £30 million.”
“Further alterations would also be required, and they would need to be worked out between the Northern Ireland Executive and the Treasury. While some Members might believe that a proposal will be looked at favourably, I am not quite sure whether our latest crisis might not have altered that view. If the city deal model does not prove to be a viable option, what more can we do to tackle the economic issues that face the north-west? <BR /> <BR />The One Plan has had some successes, most notably 81% of commitments being met during a difficult financial period, but a lot more needs to be done through the completion of the Ebrington site and meeting the continued need for motorway investment.”
“There may indeed be merit in exploring city deals, but the model itself is primarily geared to the English context of not having devolution. If we were to try to implement this model in Northern Ireland, it might not have as much economic potential, given the relative scale of our councils compared with England, even post-RPA.”
“<BR /> <BR />More recently, the city deal model has been deployed in Scotland, with Glasgow negotiating a £1·13 billion deal with the UK Treasury, which it hopes will lead to the creation of 29,000 jobs by 2020 and unlock a further £3·3 billion of private sector investment across the city region. In addition, a city deal for Cardiff has recently been discussed with the UK Government, with a view to that being announced at the next Budget.”
“I commend Derry City and Strabane District Council for its willingness to explore how it can further support local businesses, improve infrastructure and create jobs, perhaps through a city deal approach. <BR /> <BR />As others said, city deals are not a completely new idea. They were originally introduced by Westminster in 2011-12 for the eight largest cities outside London. Then, in 2013-14, the Government agreed a second wave of city deals, with 18 more cities included. Further deals with Sheffield, greater Manchester and Leeds followed, providing increased flexibilities, and they have operated with some success.”
“I welcome the opportunity to contribute to this debate today. Just last week in the Chamber, we considered the use of the multiple deprivation indicators in trying to tackle poverty, deprivation and lack of opportunity in rural areas. This motion focuses on how we can tackle the issues in those same areas by creating an environment that champions innovation and prevents its workforce from having to migrate to achieve its ambitions. The Alliance Party certainly supports the general principle of the motion, but we believe that other factors need to be considered. <BR /> <BR />Before I became an MLA, I served at local council level, and I am fully supportive of our councils playing their part in driving economic growth.”
“I do not really have much more to say at this point.”
“I thank the Minister for his answer and for the leadership that he has shown in delivering such an enormous programme of reform. Is it his assessment that the reforms are being seen to take effect across all prison establishments, or are there areas where more intensive efforts are still required to deliver change?”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. I wonder if he has learnt any lessons from the climbdown of the Greek Government in July, and will he therefore bring some fresh thinking to the table?”
“I thank the Minister for her answer. Given that children born at the start of this mandate started school last week, does the Minister think that it is acceptable that the parents of those children have been disadvantaged for four years and will continue to be disadvantaged due to the failure of OFMDFM to deliver real, tangible action on affordable childcare, even when money was allocated for it?”
“<BR /> <BR />While Barnett is still in place, therefore, the Committee has made some minor suggestions to ease the operation of the formula, including that the Treasury publish the data on which the Barnett consequentials are based; a requirement that the statement of funding policy be subject to approval by the devolved Governments; clarity on the arrangements for block grant adjustments; and improvements to the intergovernmental machinery. Perhaps if those issues were addressed, Northern Ireland could make a balanced assessment and offer other solutions for positive change. However, I suggest that we must also demonstrate responsibility with our own finances before that is likely to happen.”
“Additional devolution to Scotland, significant tax-levying powers over corporation tax here and potential changes to the voting rights of non-English MPs will have an effect on how the UK's public finances operate and might make moving to a new system more likely to be considered. However, I would be amazed were any new system to result in more for Northern Ireland than we already get. Having a system based on Westminster policy decisions has meant that Northern Ireland is not in the invidious position of having to raise its own taxes. However, I appreciate that there are downsides to that approach. Until Northern Ireland is in a position to fully fund its public services it is still, on balance, the preferred option.”
“However, the Barnett formula may not always be so beneficial to Northern Ireland. That is partly because of the long-term feature of the Barnett squeeze, where funding gradually converges across all the nations. While that has not occurred as much in recent years due to spending cuts, it is a long-term process and it can be expected to rise again in future. The Committee, therefore, recommends that DFP examine the impact that that could have in Northern Ireland in the coming years in order to inform discussions on any proposed new mechanisms for distributing moneys. <BR /> <BR />The constitutional situation of the UK is also incredibly fluid at the moment.”
“I suggest, however, that, in doing so, we need to be careful that we do not aim for a system that incentivises failure. When that happens, we end up stuck not wanting to improve our circumstances for fear of losing out on money coming into Northern Ireland. We often see that with some EU moneys, when staying poor actually gets you more. <BR /> <BR />Furthermore, there is an assumption that our relative needs in Northern Ireland are higher than those in other areas of the UK; but are we, perhaps, being naive? There is a good chance that when we truly compare our need to that of, say, inner London, the Black Country, parts of the north-east or the Welsh valleys, we will find that a needs-based mechanism of distributing public funding might not be as favourable to us as Barnett is.”
“As a member of the Committee for Finance and Personnel, I support the report's recommendations, although the limited number of recommendations is perhaps evidence that, over the years, the Barnett formula has indeed served Northern Ireland well. While the allocation is based on population and does not take account of need, it would appear that this has not proved to be detrimental to Northern Ireland because the baseline from which the allocation is made to us has been historically generous. <BR /> <BR />The Committee report recommends that DFP and the Executive look at how a needs-based approach would benefit Northern Ireland. The Welsh Government have been vociferous about that and may indeed be able to provide further information on it.”