Sammy Douglas
East Belfast · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“Avoid the appearance of wrongdoing. There is a sense out there that what is happening, over the last number of years, is wrong. The courts are too lenient and even the PPS is too lenient. William Humphrey said earlier that it undermines the criminal justice system. I agree with William.”
“It was claimed by the so-called Real IRA, and, as my colleague mentioned, the accused has broken bail conditions on five occasions. <BR /> <BR />There has been talk in the debate about human rights.”
“I rise as a member of the Justice Committee to speak in the debate, and I thank Douglas Beattie and his colleagues for bringing the motion to the House. I am here to support the motion.”
“Certainly, in the midst of his comments, there is a frustration. That frustration has been there for many years, not just recently. I agree with the Chief Constable.”
“Minister, you alluded to north Belfast. Have you looked at the statements by the Chief Constable, who has questioned the linkages that may be undermining the whole criminal justice system in situations like that? <BR /> <BR />Also, I want to pay tribute to you. I think that you have been a great Minister.”
“Thank you, Mr Speaker. I certainly agree with my colleague about the full rigour of the law. The Assembly should be tough on crime and tough on the reasons behind crime.”
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“By how much has spending on mental health services in Northern Ireland increased since the publication of the Bamford report?”
“I thank the Minister for his comprehensive response. I was in the wonderful Victoria Park in east Belfast recently to support Sustrans Northern Ireland in its cycling proficiency and safety scheme for children with from autism, which is a wonderful scheme. The Minister mentioned schoolchildren going through some of the safety training. Only in some schools — not all — are P6 pupils afforded that opportunity,. Is the Minister interested in looking at the potential for widening the scheme to include all P6 pupils in Northern Ireland?”
“To be fair to the prison staff, that situation, from what I know, has been addressed; they took prison staff off letters etc and placed them on the landings. <BR /> <BR />In conclusion, we support the Minister's amendments, and we will be opposing the others. We were told at the Committee that the changes will not require additional staff and that the cost will be minimal. I think that people mentioned to us that it may be done through websites and literature or whatever. Maybe the Minister, in his winding-up speech, will address those points.”
“<BR /> <BR />I could not stand here today without quoting the Bible. There is a verse that says that it is "the little foxes, that spoil the vines". I say that because the ombudsman will be able to investigate not just major issues but other issues that many people would term "insignificant" but which are vital for prisoners. I went to see a prisoner who was distraught because he was expecting a Father's Day card, but it did not arrive until a week later. It is unacceptable that someone in prison is looking for a Christmas card or a Father's Day card and it is late. Those things create tension between prisoners and prison staff. Part of it is because of the reduced numbers of prison staff and the difficulties that they had with manning the prison.”
“It is good that the Prisoner Ombudsman can investigate the situation where families and others are visiting a prison. <BR /> <BR />The Prisoner Ombudsman can also investigate facilities, or, I should say, the lack of them, at a prison. That is very important. The Bill will also enable the ombudsman to investigate health and education, which are a very important part of prison life. Those of us on the Justice Committee who went to Maghaberry prison saw some of the education facilities that people were able to access, but others were not able to access them. We heard from the prison review oversight group — I have spoken to prisoners as well — about the major problems that many prisoners find in prison. Additionally, there are mental health issues. The Chair alluded to that earlier. It is another important aspect.”
“A very important point is that he will enjoy the same independence from the Department because the Minister appoints people to the Policing Board, the Probation Board and Criminal Justice Inspection, and they have that sense of independence. That is an important point. <BR /> <BR />Amendment No 45 creates new clause 35A on own-initiative investigations. The clause includes not just prisoners but persons visiting a prison. I had a very poor experience recently while visiting a prisoner. As an MLA, I was a bit disappointed with how I was treated. I did not go to the Prisoner Ombudsman; I went straight to the governor, but not everybody has direct access to a governor. To be honest, the governor was able to reassure me, and we got the problem sorted out. It was a bit of a blip, but it was an unfortunate situation for him.”
“It has nothing to do with this, but anyway. <BR /> <BR />The ombudsman has the right of entry to prison premises and the juvenile justice centre. He also has powers to access documents for investigations. As he has told us before, that has not been a big problem in the past, but I think that that will give him added power if it comes to the point when he needs to access documents for those investigations. <BR /> <BR />Currently, the ombudsman is appointed under prison legislation. The change in arrangements further demonstrates his independence from those he has the power to investigate. I think that it has to be completely separate from the prison structure and departmental hierarchy.”
“I have visited a number of prisons over the past number of years. Last year, 90% of my experience was very good. To be quite honest, 10% was bad at times. <BR /> <BR />I just want to highlight a couple of amendments. I will turn to amendment No 37 to clause 29. I want to try to link it, as Danny Kennedy has done, to amendment No 45 and new clause 35A. Amendment No 37 inserts the words "the Ombudsman's own initiative". The Bill introduces a duty and obligation on all parties to cooperate with the ombudsman. I certainly agree that it should be an offence if anyone intentionally obstructs an investigation by the ombudsman. <BR /> <BR />The oddminsman — sorry, ombudsman. It is getting a bit late in the day for me: three days in a row. As I said before, I know another big word, "delicatessen".”
“Sometimes, we get confused over that because the ombudsman's role is to act as an honest broker. If you are an honest broker, people respect you. An honest broker examines the facts and reports on them as he sees fit. I see that as the role of the ombudsman. <BR /> <BR />The ombudsman is more than just a complaints handler or someone for people to whinge to. The office is established to help to ease tensions in the prison and provide a way for prisoners to deal with the problems that they face. Certainly, the discussions that we have had with prison visitors and oversight people have indicated that there are tensions within some of the prisons, particularly Maghaberry. The role of the Prison Ombudsman is to try to ease those tensions when there are difficulties and, in many ways, people need that independent voice and ear.”
“The Bill places the ombudsman on a statutory footing, as has been said. Since the first appointment in 2005, the ombudsman has, I believe, operated very effectively and efficiently on a non-statutory basis. I think that we are getting a continuation of the role. As a Member said earlier, there have been difficulties in the past. I do not think that they have been related to that office but maybe to some outside interference. <BR /> <BR />I believe that the Bill further enhances the standing of the office. The ombudsman is a recognised brand and also has that reputation of 10 years of continuous work. Independence will be reinforced. That is a key aspect of the Bill. Maybe I will say a few words about that later. <BR /> <BR />It is worth noting that the ombudsman works neither for prisoners nor against prison officers.”
“I want to speak generally, first of all, if that is OK, Mr Speaker.”
“<BR /> <BR />We have a small number of amendments.”
“The group 3 amendments are about the Prison Ombudsman. A lot of things have been said, and I will try to keep this as short as possible. First, I thank the Chair and Deputy Chair for their leadership through this process. I also thank other Committee members. Stewart Dickson said earlier that it has been a good process and that there has been good engagement on the Justice Committee. The way that we have conducted the business is a good model for other Committees. I also thank organisations such as the prison review oversight group, which spoke to us about a range of issues, and the independent visitors, who helped to feed into some of the recommendations and amendments. Finally, I thank the Minister and his officials, as well as the Justice Committee officials led by Christine and her team. They have done an excellent job.”
“I thank the Minister for giving way. I would also like to talk about my travels and what I have learnt over the past year. The furthest that I got was Magilligan, where I went to look at some of the issues. On a serious note and given what my colleague Danny Kennedy has said, are any of the issues that you looked at three years ago linked to what we are doing at the moment with the justice innovation seminars?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. He mentioned the justice innovation seminars, and I think that all agree that they were excellent and one of the best decisions taken by the Justice Committee. Is it realistic to look at implementing the policy suggestions and recommendations in the next mandate?”
“I thank the Minister for his answers so far. Will the Minister outline the current position of the Department's equality scheme work and the work on the housing strategy?”
“I welcome the Minister's answers today. Since the 2014 Giro d'Italia, there has been a big increase in cycling. Will the Minister outline what steps her Department is taking to promote and foster cycling in east Belfast?”
“I thank the Minister for his answer so far. He may be aware that England and Wales have attempted to deal with the failure to control the spread of invasive non-native plants using antisocial behaviour orders (ASBOs). Does the Minister feel that the current legislation is strong enough to deal with this problem right across Northern Ireland?”
“The Member has made some very good points. Sustrans is now looking at having a bicycle hub here, not just for tourists but for Members. Will the Member agree that that would be an excellent idea?”
“On the way out of the Chamber, my colleague Gordon Dunne said, "Don't forget to mention the Circuit of Ireland Rally, because it comes up here". That was a great event. I understand the problems with crowd control, but let us get those events well managed. I am delighted that my colleague brought the topic to the House, and I support the Minister in some of the ideas that have been raised tonight.”
“<BR /> <BR />As I mentioned, a huge number of people have never had the pleasure of coming through those gates. My dream would be to see the Northern Ireland football team this summer coming through those gates — and I am sure the Member opposite would like to see the Republic of Ireland football team coming through those gates — on an open-top bus driving up the Prince of Wales avenue with the European Championship. What a dream come true. <BR /> <BR />Some people mentioned other events, but if we go back to 1998, who can forget Sir Elton John coming to Stormont? I think it was well-managed. There are difficulties about noise pollution with neighbours, and we have had discussions with neighbours over the years, including my colleague Robin Newton as one of our Stormont neighbours. I would like to see similar events here in the future.”
“Nearly 10,000 visitors locally came to the EastSide Arts Festival, and many of them came here. There were nearly 2,000 from the rest of Northern Ireland, and nearly 4,000 from Great Britain and overseas. Let us see where we can explore opportunities to build on what we have already done here and encourage people to use this beautiful Building. <BR /> <BR />Some Members mentioned some of the events and activities that have taken place here, but nobody mentioned that wonderful day — and who could forget it? — on 27 June 2012, when 20,000 ticket holders converged on the estate to see Her Majesty the Queen in all her splendour. The reason I get excited is that we have such a wonderful asset, but let us not hide our light under a bushel.”
“Using feedback from surveys and comment cards, the average stay in Northern Ireland for those attending the event — and many came from the Republic of Ireland, Great Britain and internationally — was 7·2 days per person. Visitors came from 19 countries, so we had people from across the world coming up here. I mention that because there is an opportunity for us to add value and link in to other tourist events and to promote tourism. <BR /> <BR />I think it was my colleague Robin Newton who said that visitors who come to the Stormont Hotel might want to go out and visit Titanic Belfast or go to the Giant's Causeway, which is a lovely part of the world. It is good to do all those trips, but, if you are like me or from overseas, some days you just want to get out, go for a nice walk, clear your head and just sit and relax.”
“Now, that is TripAdvisor telling the rest of the world, "Come to Stormont". There is a great opportunity to add value through tourism. We are promoting tourism right across Northern Ireland and beyond. <BR /> <BR />Let me quote just a few figures from the EastSide Arts Festival, a local initiative with many volunteers. One of the events that I hosted here with the Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Investment was for 100 out-of-state visitors, people from all over the world, coming to east Belfast and Stormont. The main speaker was from New Zealand. Also part of the EastSide Arts Festival, I am sure we all remember the Live on Cyprus Avenue event with Van Morrison.”
“That is such a lovely quote. I found another lovely quote on TripAdvisor from someone who has been to the estate:”
“Maybe the Minister will look to see whether we can be a bit more flexible when people want to use the castle for wedding photographs. <BR /> <BR />The reality is that many people, as was said, use this place. Let me just quote a user. I read this earlier today from someone who uses this Building. It was not my colleague Robin Newton. She said:”
“I think that that was the first wedding at which a bride and bridegroom were able to get their photographs taken up here. That is a shame. Why are we blocking people from coming to take photographs for 10 minutes? I understand about security and all that, but that family was willing to pay to come in.”
“It does not belong to Members of the Assembly. I sometimes host events up here and say to people, "It is great to see you here". A lot of people say to me, "It is wonderful. Thank you for inviting us up here". I tell them that this place belongs to them; it belongs to the people. Let us not forget that. <BR /> <BR />On a negative note, last summer, one of my constituents was getting married, and her father contacted me and asked whether she could use Stormont Castle as a backdrop for photographs. To be quite honest, I came up against a brick wall. It was impossible to get agreement from a range of sources just to get a couple up here in a car to take a few photographs for 10 or 15 minutes. Eventually, I succeeded, and I pay tribute to Máirtín Ó Muilleoir, who helped to get an agreement all round.”
“As I say, it is sad that many of those people, quite a number of whom are from east Belfast, have never been into this Building or on the estate. We need to look at how we encourage people to come along. <BR /> <BR />I commend the Events Office on the tours that it runs. It does an excellent job, and I am sure that the Minister will confirm the growing numbers coming to the Building and associating with the estate. While I understand the need to safeguard and preserve this wonderful Building and the majestic natural environment of woodland and parkland, I nonetheless believe that we should support well-managed events and encourage more visitors. I make that point because, in one sense, as my colleague Chris Lyttle said, the estate belongs to the people. We tend to forget that we are the custodians of the estate.”
“I am pleased to participate in the debate tonight on the Stormont estate. I thank my colleague Robin Newton for securing it. I thank you, Mr Speaker, for attending. I also thank the Minister. I think that this is his first Adjournment debate, and I wish him well in his new role. <BR /> <BR />I was first elected four and a half years ago. In the first couple of years, I hosted a number of community and voluntary groups and senior citizens groups at Stormont. Very often, I asked how many of them had been to the Stormont estate and Building. For most of them, it was their first opportunity to come here. For many years, the estate, to be quite honest, was the preserve of the chosen few. Thankfully, that is changing. Over the past couple of years, a growing number of people have been coming into the estate.”
“What is the rationale behind the request for a further report?”
“As a non-Tory colleague, I wish Lord Morrow all the very best in this, his second term of office. <BR /> <BR />The Minister's statement referred to the future work programme:”
“I thank the junior Minister for her response. All politics being local, can she give us an update on developments on the Newtownards Road, please?”
“I also welcome the First Minister to Question Time; long may she reign.”
“When that research has been carried out, will the Minister ask his officials to look at the extent of support from Horizon 2020? Certainly, when I was on the Committee for Employment and Learning, there was a sense that Northern Ireland was punching way below its weight when compared with the Republic of Ireland.”
“I thank the Minister for his contribution so far. In his statement, he said:”
“In the Minister's response to the earlier question, he mentioned those who are "statutorily homeless". Can the Minister outline what that term actually means in Northern Ireland?”
“There were thousands of children, and I did not see any of them or their parents involved in drinking, so I support that aspect of the Bill. <BR /> <BR />Mr Maskey mentioned Drumbo stadium. Maybe the Member will address that and let us know if there is anything in her Bill that will address some of those concerns because the management of Drumbo greyhound stadium came to us in, I think, 2012 and raised some of these issues, so I ask the Member to look at that. <BR /> <BR />Irish Rugby has applied to host the 2023 Rugby World Cup. Casement Park is part of that and, if it were to happen today, it would not be accepted because we need to address those issues. I will keep my remarks very brief and finish by saying that I support the Bill.”
“I support the Second Stage of the Licensing Bill, and I commend Mrs Cochrane for bringing it to this stage to address the restrictions that are faced by large stadia. When the Member came to the Committee, she made a clear, concise and, I must say, excellent presentation. She addressed all the questions that were raised in a well-thought-out fashion. I raised the question about consultation with churches, and she certainly addressed that. There seemed to be consensus among members at the Committee that we agreed with what she said in relation to the Bill. <BR /> <BR />For me, the Bill will make a difference for outdoor stadia that are now used for a range of activities. I was at the SSE recently at the Friendship Four ice hockey tournament. There was drink there, but, in many ways, it was ancillary to the event that was taking place.”
“I look forward to the Minister's response, and I hope that the PSNI is listening in.”
“Hotels that breach the terms of the licence — that is, hotels that sell alcohol after hours to non-residents or their friends — impact negatively on other hotels as they are able to subsidise overheads unfairly with additional sales. It may also be an unfair way to attract trade from other hotels. Pubs that breach the terms of the liquor licence — that is, public houses that sell outside of their permitted hours — unfairly draw competition away from other law-abiding pubs, because the paying public will often choose a venue where they know that they can stay longer at night or get access earlier in the day. <BR /> <BR />Hospitality Ulster works year round with the PSNI to tackle these issues on behalf of law-abiding business owners. Issues of illegal trade are common and, according to my research, can be found right across the Province.”
“A restaurant's licence states that all alcohol purchased must be ancillary to a main, sit-down, table meal and that all alcohol consumed must appear on the bill for that meal. Restaurants that operate outside of this remit take trade away from legitimate pubs, as they can almost always undercut prices due to their lower rates and overheads. It is important to note that they have paid a fraction of the cost to license their premises in the first instance. Illegally trading restaurants are also often able to poach functions from pubs and hotels. Legitimately trading, law-abiding restaurants lose out to businesses that are acting against the law in this manner also, as the illegal restaurant is able to subsidise food and overhead costs with unfairly swollen drink sales.”
“Business rates for restaurants are based on square footage of the premises, similar to standard retail outlets, with no abatement for food. I am using that as an example because it is a double whammy for people who are paying very high rates and, at the same time, are being punished by illegal trading. Registered clubs typically pay 20% to 25% of what commercial licensed premises pay. <BR /> <BR />Let me come back to the main point. Illegal trading in Northern Ireland, by which I mean a business operating outside of the terms of its own liquor licence, is a very real problem in the sector. It affects all types of law-abiding premises and can take a number of forms. I will give a couple of examples. <BR /> <BR />First is a restaurant operating as a pub.”
“The hospitality industry in Northern Ireland today sustains something like 60,000 jobs. It pays £653 million in wages, and it generates nearly £89 million in tax. It also contributes £1·1 billion annually to the Northern Ireland economy as a whole. I want to put this into context. <BR /> <BR />It is important to note that, as one of Northern Ireland's largest growth industries, there is a disparity in the models by which the three main business types in the hospitality sector are rated. Public houses have one form of rates, which is based on the turnover of their premises. Hotel business rates are based on a turnover model at a given point in time, similar to public houses, with the addition of an accommodation element to the formula and banding for the star rating of the premises.”
“I wish Mr Kennedy well on joining the Justice Committee. Welcome to it, and I wish him the very best. <BR /> <BR />I am pleased to speak on this report into business crime, and I thank the Chair for his presentation. I want to highlight some of the problems associated with illegal trading. First, I declare an interest in that my son runs a pub in Belfast, and I am also an honorary member of Harland and Wolff Welders social club. I will not be talking about that; we will talk about social clubs later. <BR /> <BR />I begin by thanking Hospitality Ulster, which attended some of our business seminars and also provided me with up-to-date statistics. There has been significant change in the hospitality industry as pubs, hotels and restaurants have evolved and grown in response to changing consumer trends and shifting economic climates.”
“Lord Morrow, I think, is going to table a question for urgent oral answer about flooding, particularly in the Linen Green shopping complex in Dungannon. Could the Minister outline what specific support is available for businesses?”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. I am aware that the Open University has contacted your Department about potential courses. Will the Minister consider widening access to nursing courses by removing means-testing for financial support for students undertaking modules K101 and K109?”
“The Minister today attended the unveiling of the C S Lewis and Seamus Heaney portraits. Does she agree that that is the sort of positive image that we need to project from Stormont? Does she have any ideas about expanding that to bring in the likes of the late George Best, the tenth anniversary of whose untimely death is tomorrow?”
“I thank the Minister for her statement, particularly in relation to the additional financial transactions capital. Can the Minister outline to the House how this will allow housing associations to build much-needed affordable homes across Northern Ireland?”
“I thank the Minister for her answer, and I wish her all the best with the rest of her questions today. Does she agree with me that, in east Belfast, we should encourage commuters to use the Comber greenway as an additional route to the rapid transport scheme? Could the Minister outline any plans that she has to improve and enhance the Comber greenway?”