Órlaithí Flynn
West Belfast · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“<BR /> <BR />Parliamentary privilege is a complicated issue, but it is a very important one for all Members to understand. It was helpful to get Matthew's intervention on the fact that the repeal changes nothing for Members. It simply takes away the reference to privilege which never fully existed. I thank Matthew for his intervention.”
“My comments will be brief. As Deputy Chairperson of the Committee on Procedures, I welcome the opportunity to conclude today's debate on the motion to repeal Standing Order 70 and make a number of consequential amendments.”
“<BR /> <BR />I thank the Chairperson and members of the Committee on Standards and Privileges for undertaking a comprehensive review of Standing Order 70 and for bringing the outcomes of that work to the Committee on Procedures, with the recommendation to make the changes to Standing Orders.”
“I thank the Minister for that response. As you outlined, Minister, a key part of creating a more resilient road network is having the workforce to deliver it. We know that British austerity has severely impacted on our workforce in DFI, creating an over-reliance on contractors and driving up the cost of works as a result.”
“I support the motion, and I thank its sponsors. <BR /> <BR />For many people, the journey to becoming a parent is not straightforward. Whilst some conceive without difficulty, others face years of heartbreak, uncertainty and loss.”
“<BR /> <BR />I have learned that people often talk about IVF as though it guarantees a baby. Tragically, the reality is that that is not always the case. This is not the first motion calling for three cycles of IVF that we have debated.”
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“Minister, I take into account the fact that you are completely constrained when it comes to additional funding requirements and that you find it difficult to bring on board any new projects or to expand funding. Can you elaborate on core grant funding under the current budget and how that looks for this financial year? Some groups that had been in receipt of that funding, such as the Samaritans and Carers NI, have been in contact.”
“Will the deputy First Minister further detail how the Executive Office ensures equality of opportunity for all?”
“I thank the Minister for that response. Will the Minister detail how her Department intends to support the uptake of the real living wage?”
“Health is a devolved matter, and we should be able to reach our own determinations. Our devolved neighbours in Scotland have provided an alternative blueprint to follow for access to surgical treatment that has been commissioned abroad by NHS Scotland. Our local patients' dilemmas are compounded by our healthcare system's unprecedented waiting lists for surgery, the increase in age of the mesh-injured cohort and the decades of impact on their quality of life. The mesh-injured are without hope. <BR /> <BR />It is not the mark of an equal society nor a compassionate one when a section of our community — the mesh-injured women — feels abandoned. Behind all the headlines, they feel failed and that little has changed. An apology was made to them in 2020. It is now time for redress.”
“Regrettably, the mesh-injured women and the mothers and children who have been harmed by sodium valproate have very little confidence that there will be change, as they are being told that any progress here will depend on further discussions with counterparts in England.”
“<BR /> <BR />On 8 July 2020, the then Health Minister, Robin Swann, issued an immediate apology to victims of mesh and sodium valproate. In 2020, Minister Swann acknowledged the findings of the Cumberlege report and the need to explore financial and non-financial redress. In 2024, Minister Swann issued a similar response to the Hughes report recommendations. In December 2024, Health Minister, Mike Nesbitt, met local patient advocacy groups, although no glimmer of hope for change has been detected, unfortunately. To date, the mesh-injured women have not received a penny of financial redress. <BR /> <BR />The Department's lack of progress on redress is making victims of the scandal feel that the apology in 2020 was insincere.”
“The weekend just past marked one year since England's Patient Safety Commissioner published the Hughes report on options for redress for all those who were harmed by sodium valproate and pelvic mesh. The Hughes report provided a redress blueprint for those who suffered avoidable harm that was caused by systematic failings in the National Health Service provision frameworks. There was a recommendation to provide an initial one-off, lump sum payment of £25,000 to mesh-injured patients to address delay. Subsequent payments were to be subject to a formalised administrative redress scheme that would evaluate individual payments. To date, no payments have been made. Hopes are being raised and dashed by the unimplemented recommendations of the Hughes report and the Cumberlege report.”
“ME Support NI is a fantastic charity that does fantastic work for people who are often at their lowest point when they have been struck down by this relatively unknown illness. The charity was originally founded by a brave mother from west Belfast who found herself in the terrible position of having a very sick young child with no diagnosis, no answers, no care pathway and nowhere to turn. Her efforts and perseverance gave rise to a group of people that now provides invaluable support to everyone who lives with ME. I commend that mother, Antoinette, and her son David from west Belfast. They run the charity alongside other board members. Keep up the great work, and, hopefully, we will soon see the appointment of a specialist in this healthcare field.”
“I will continue to work and speak up for those who are suffering from ME and, hopefully, do all that I can, along with colleagues, to bring about positive change for patients.”
“They are doing amazing work in supporting people — young and old — who are living with ME, many of whom are living without a diagnosis or a treatment plan and, sadly, feel stigmatised, ignored and not believed when they end up in hospital as a result of that debilitating disease. I sincerely hope that we can make more progress to support the work of ME Support NI to help secure better services, receive proper diagnoses and, generally, raise more awareness of what the disease is and how it affects people. <BR /> <BR />Patients who suffer from ME deserve to have access to appropriate and quality healthcare. People should not have to travel to hotel rooms to have specialists from overseas diagnose them, which is the situation currently.”
“I will highlight a meeting that Sinn Féin representatives held recently with ME Support NI to hear about the invaluable support that it is providing to ME patients. ME, also known as chronic fatigue syndrome, is a long-term chronic and painful neurological illness. Over 7,000 people in the North are living with ME, with many so severely affected that they are unable to leave their homes or even their beds. This disease of the central nervous system can have a debilitating impact on people's lives. <BR /> <BR />A few weeks ago, the Sinn Féin health group MLAs met volunteers from ME Support NI. The people in the support group, who set up the charity, have direct experience of living with this awful disease.”
“The Minister does not have a blank cheque to sign off to have a big advertising campaign on the issue. However, even if the message coming from the Minister and Members to the people whom we are speaking about today were that we are giving a commitment to make the matter a priority — I know that that means nothing until it is actually delivered — and if we were in the space of having three-year Budgets and with additional money — please, God — coming from the British Government, this is something that the Minister of Health might, hopefully, be able to prioritise and push forward. I know that it would be really appreciated by the people who designed the motion.”
“Hopefully, when they listen to everyone's remarks throughout the debate, they can take a bit of comfort in seeing that we care and that we are trying to raise awareness and call out the stigma and negative attitudes towards them, because those are wrong. <BR /> <BR />To finish, the motion calls for awareness campaigns, which are in the first theme of the mental health strategy, to be delivered as part of what we can do to try to help stamp out stigma and discrimination. All those points were covered yesterday in the discussion on the challenges in the Health budget in the context of autism and specialist mental health services. We might have the same conversations today; we are having the same conversations in the Health Committee every week. <BR /> <BR />All that having been said, I get it.”
“As elected representatives, we share a responsibility to listen to those with lived experience of mental illness, champion their needs and promote education and general awareness through public campaigns. We should not accept such biased attitudes as the norm in the modern-day world, as they are, at the very least, hurtful, and, at the very worst, harmful, to some of the most vulnerable groups of people. <BR /> <BR />The first step towards making a societal change is to bring awareness to unwanted behaviour or attitudes, which is the intention of the motion. The service users and the people who have that lived experience can, hopefully, watch the debate back, because, as I said, some of them are missing it.”
“One of them is around the same age as me and is such a beautiful person, so kind and so gentle. However, he really struggles to live with his diagnosis. When I am out with him, I can see that, in a lot of cases, people do not mean it, but stigma is there, and that is why I am saying that it is rife. If we open our eyes to it and if we notice it, I think that we all have a responsibility to try to acknowledge it and also be aware of our own prejudices, which, sometimes, we do not even know exist. We all have a responsibility to challenge any discrimination and stigma that we might witness or any negative comments that we might hear. We have to send out a united message that discriminating against, stigmatising and shaming, whether we mean to or not, people who are living with an mental illness is wrong.”
“<BR /> <BR />For me, that type of stigma can often only be understood or felt if it is experienced at first hand, either where you have been a victim of it or where you have witnessed that type of discrimination against a loved one. I think that it is difficult for each of us individually to reflect on that, because I think that you always assume that you would never be the person to make someone else feel that way — you would never be the person to try to make someone feel discriminated against or stigmatised — but it is so easily done. I said earlier that it can be so subtle, and it can be so subtle that sometimes people do not even realise that they are doing it. My own lived experience is through family members who have been diagnosed with quite serious mental illnesses.”
“It can and does create a reluctance for those who are the victims of stigma to ask for further help or seek treatment. <BR /> <BR />The impact that it has on those living with a mental illness can be debilitating, and it can be dangerous. Put yourself in the shoes of someone who may already be struggling to come to terms with a mental illness diagnosis, someone who may already be struggling to make it through their day, and who then experiences a situation where they are made fun of or where someone passes a negative comment under their breath or even just gives a strange look. Just imagine any simple scenario that can and does take place daily for people who are mentally ill. They are simply made to feel different. Why? Because they do not live a "normal life" like the rest of us.”
“<BR /> <BR />While the focus of the debate is on those who are living with mental illness, it is important to state, in the context of stigma and how it affects people, that it also impacts on every type of mental health disability, whether it is people living with autism, which we debated yesterday, or people living with a learning disability, physical disability, trauma or, indeed, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, PTSD or eating disorders. They all experience social challenges that are directly caused by the stigma that they face. Stigma is a horrible thing. Stigma is real, it is rife, and it is being felt, sadly, by many people who are living with a mental illness. It lacks understanding, and it promotes social exclusion, loneliness, isolation, hopelessness and shame.”
“The design of the motion came directly from people who have that type of lived experience. A group of service users had hoped to be here for the debate, but, sadly, because our timings have moved ahead of schedule, they might miss all of it. For anyone in the Chamber who has an interest in this topic, some service users will be in the Great Hall at 1.00 pm today, and you are more than welcome to pop out and say hello to them and get a wee chat with them. As I said, they are the people who designed the motion and who wanted it to be debated publicly today in the Assembly Chamber. Feel free to pop out to the Great Hall at 1.00 pm. It is exactly those types of people who deserve to have their voices and their experiences heard clearly in the Assembly.”
“Therefore, this motion is, hopefully, an important step in tackling the problem of calling out stigma.”
“I am conscious that we had a debate in the Chamber yesterday about autism and mental health services. The intention behind today's motion is to raise awareness of the stigma and unfair challenges that many people who have a diagnosable mental illness often face. I am probably preaching to the choir, because the Minister who is in post has been a champion for mental health for many years. I know that from working alongside him in my time as an MLA. <BR /> <BR />Stigma, prejudice and discrimination against people with mental illness can be, at times, very subtle and, at others, very obvious, but, no matter the magnitude, they can and do lead to harm. People with mental illness are marginalised and discriminated against in various ways, but understanding what that looks like, how to address it and, importantly, how to eradicate it can help.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. There is added complexity: think about the, potentially, many adults who are living with autism but have not gone through the process of being diagnosed. We have got better at diagnosing at an earlier age, but we are also dealing with a cohort of people who have possibly been living with mental illness and autism and have not received their diagnosis. It is so important that there is training in that regard, so that people are conscious of that.”
“We need to move forward with urgency — following up, of course, on the accountability and delays — and with determination to make the vision of the hospitals a reality and see the completion and the doors opened to our families and children.”
“The design of the hospital, with its, hopefully, inviting atmosphere and play areas, will help our children feel at ease and allow them to focus on healing and being kids, even in the very tough times that they are going through. <BR /> <BR />What better place to host such a facility than in the constituency of West Belfast that I represent. It is a community built on strength and solidarity. The people of West Belfast take immense pride in their ability to support and care for others, and hosting this hospital is no exception. Families coming from across the North will not only find world-class care but a community ready to make them feel at home.”
“You can just see the difference that that space will make to those kids when they are getting their treatments and operations. Hopefully, we will be in that position when our new children's hospital opens. I know that the focus of today's motion is on the overspend and the delays, which are very important, but we need to focus on the fact that, when both hospitals are open and operational, we will be able to share the specialities and the clinical expertise so that very sick children across the country can be treated in the children's hospitals, North and South. <BR /> <BR />The maternity and children's hospitals will offer more than just physical care for the mothers, babies and kids: it is also about emotional care and the mental health of our children and their families, which will be as much of a priority as their physical health.”
“Bright play areas, colourful designs and thoughtful touches will transform what can be a very intimidating experience into something much less daunting. For the parents and families, spaces where they can have a rest, have some time out and feel supported will make all the difference during some of the most challenging times in their lives. <BR /> <BR />It also made me think about the Health Committee's recent joint visit to Dublin. Again, we have the example of the disaster around the new children's hospital in Dublin. The overspend is going into billions of euros. When we went to visit the hospital, which is nearing completion and should be opening in June, you could see how they have transformed the hospital for the wee sick kids and their families.”
“It is not just about constructing new buildings for the maternity and children's hospitals or catching up on missed deadlines for the opening date, although that is very important. The longer-term vision and strategy for those buildings is for the hospital to have the power to transform how we care for families, mothers and children across the North in a place that truly embodies care, community and compassion. <BR /> <BR />When the maternity and the children's hospitals are completed, it will not just be new facilities; it will be a lifeline for so many new mothers, new babies, very sick young children and their families. Just imagine a young child, who is feeling scared and anxious about their treatment, walking into a new space that feels welcoming and not clinical.”
“I support the motion. Like many others in the Chamber, I share the frustration and the genuine concerns about the delays that have held back this vital project. Of course, accountability of public money and the massive overspend is very important and something that we need to follow up on. I agree with the suggestions made earlier, by the proposer of the motion and the Alliance Party, about getting some of the witnesses back to the Health Committee to follow up on the details of what has gone wrong and when the maternity hospital can open. <BR /> <BR />While we must address those challenges, I want to take a moment to reflect on what this hospital represents and the incredible potential that it holds.”
“— ideally, it will not lead to a situation like the ones that the families in the Public Gallery have had to endure. Those situations are what we are trying to prevent.”
“The motion is not about blaming the staff; it is about how we protect staff and patients. They need to be treated equally. <BR /> <BR />It has been asked how, if we are not going to build the foundation of trust in the health and social care system, we will instil confidence in our health and social care workers to communicate what has gone wrong with their managers and feed that up the line. There was a conversation in the Health Committee the other week about getting to a place where there is trust, openness and transparency. That way, when there is a serious adverse incident —”
“There is a big wrong there. Pat mentioned cases that involve senior managers and executives in trusts and Health and Social Care settings. Why are those staff feeling that fear? Why is there that culture of people being too afraid to speak out when they see someone intentionally doing wrong or harm? In 99% of cases, the harm is unintentional, which leads to another important question: we can legislate, but why do our Health and Social Care staff feel a sense of fear when they want to speak up about something that, they think, has gone wrong? That signals that there is a legacy somewhere in the structures and management of our health and social care system that has let some of that fear fester. We need to focus on those conversations alongside any legislation that we introduce.”
“We had a presentation on that at the Health Committee the other week. It is really good that that work is taking place, but it may be a sign that many more conversations have to be had. I know that those conversations will take place as part of the consultation, but, again, it is about how we strike a balance for Health and Social Care staff and patients and their families, who come from our homes and our constituencies, so that everyone is included in the conversation. We are all speaking on behalf of both sides, and the challenge is to find the right method and the right legislation that makes everyone feel protected and safeguarded. <BR /> <BR />I think that it was Gerry who mentioned the culture of fear around speaking up for Health and Social Care staff. That was mentioned a few times. Again, the big question is "Why?".”
“That point is important because of the genuine concerns of our Health and Social Care workers that have been raised throughout the debate. As MLAs — elected representatives — we represent people who work in the Health and Social Care service. We have family members who work in Health and Social Care, and we have MLAs who have worked in Health and Social Care. It is about finding a balance. How can we have conversations to allay those workers' fears in tandem with giving families complete security and confidence that they will never go through what other families have gone through? It is a fine balance. <BR /> <BR />This evening's debate may be a good beginning of a conversation. There are differing views among Members, and it is good that the Minister is taking forward the work on candour through the Being Open framework.”
“The motion and the amendment seek to create a culture of transparency and accountability in the North's health and social care system. By establishing a legally enforceable duty of candour, we will take a critical step to ensure that every organisation and individual in our healthcare system is open and honest about any shortcomings. This is not just about a policy change but about building a foundation of trust and integrity. <BR /> <BR />A statutory duty of candour is ultimately about protection: protection for staff, patients, families and our wider communities. Such a duty ensures that cases of abuse, negligence or mistake are brought to light, investigated and addressed transparently. Families and staff deserve that assurance.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-Leas-Cheann Comhairle.”
“Following on from the last point, is the Department doing anything specific to reach out to harder-to-reach victims in order to make them aware of the redress scheme and the services available to them?”
“When can we expect to see a draft Budget for 2025-26?”
“Are we waiting on more hospital admissions or a death? We know that it is a problem and that it is impacting on young people. It has reached young people, so what are we going to do to tackle it? Hopefully, if the motion is agreed, everyone can chip in and do their bit to make a difference.”
“Sadly, in one case, a child is already in the throes of addiction as a result of getting spice in a vape. <BR /> <BR />I alert the Minister to the important point that Deirdre Hargey made about the Amplify pilot project. I do not knows loads about it, so I will go away and research it. If there already are community toolkits that might work, we could use them in other areas and communities. <BR /> <BR />The public health advice that has been put out to parents and guardians is completely correct in telling them not to wait until they perceive there to be a problem. Instead, they should start thinking now about prevention and have early conversations with their children and young people. The same advice should apply to everybody in the Chamber, and to all Departments: please do not wait. What are we waiting on?”
“It comes back to the justice system, the police and any other avenue that we have to try to stop individuals who have found a way to exploit children and young people and put them in danger by putting spice oil into vapes. I am glad to see that PSNI's local neighbourhood teams have been doing some outreach work by visiting schools to alert them to the dangers of the vapes, particularly the drugs that are in them. <BR /> <BR />The PHA has encouraged parents and guardians to talk to their children about the dangers of vaping potentially dangerous unknown substances. Unfortunately, though, we are hearing reports of primary-school children vaping, so it is happening at that very young age. I am dealing with families, not just from west Belfast, who have already been affected by the issue. Kids have been taken out of school and cannot go back.”
“Synthetic cannabinoids are relatively new. A lot of evidence is still being gathered on them, but the Public Health Agency has already alerted us to the fact that people can have severe reactions after using them. I do not know whether that information is out there among the general public, especially among young people. Using those drugs with vapes could make them even more unsafe. We know that spice is available in liquid form and is being used in e-cigarettes and vapes. Regrettably, there is demand for that drug locally. Most worrying for us all, however, is the fact that children and young people are accessing vapes that contain that drug. <BR /> <BR />These issues are, of course, much broader than the education system and what the Education Minister can do to tackle them.”
“Thankfully, parents have already been urged to talk to young people about the dangers of vaping unknown substances, especially spice, which some vapes contain. Spice mimics the effects of cannabis. It can have serious side effects, including nausea and mood swings as well as a loss of muscle coordination.”
“Some of those kids are not even aware of the dangerous substances or drugs contained in some of the vapes that are already in circulation in many of our schools. The problem potentially affects us all: every single one of us in the Chamber and every single one of our constituents. We all have connections to young people: sons, daughters, nieces, nephews, grandchildren, neighbours, friends or whoever. We are all connected to young people in some shape or form. Vaping, including of dangerous vapes that are spiked with drugs, has already reached our streets, our schools and our young people. <BR /> <BR />Earlier in the year — in April, I think — the PHA warned the public that use of the drug spice is now all too common here in the North.”
“However, if any other young people are watching or pick up on some of what Members have said in the debate, the critical message that I would like them to take away is that vaping is dangerous and bad for your health. As we know, far too many young people pick up the habit as young teens. It has damaging consequences for their health and can, sadly, act as a gateway to other drugs and, ultimately, to addiction. We know that, in many cases, young people pick up the habit in the company of their friends and peers in the school environment, as the Minister said. <BR /> <BR />What worries me most about the trend — the huge increase in the number of children smoking vapes — is the danger posed by some of the substances that the young people are smoking.”
“Members also covered issues related to the health system and the role that the Department of Health can play in reducing the number of young people who vape: we heard about some of the legislation that will, hopefully, be passed in the Assembly to ban smoking and some vapes. Last but not least, Members addressed what responsibilities the justice system, the police and councils have in relation to the manufacture and sale of vapes, including illegal vapes that can contain very harmful and potentially life-threatening substances and drugs. <BR /> <BR />I doubt that many young people or school students are watching today's debate — although there are two in the Gallery who are on work experience: you are more than welcome.”
“I thank them for those accounts. All the comments have been helpful. Words that were repeated in Members' remarks include "crisis", "epidemic", "scourge on our society", "absolute plague" and "significant concern". It is clear that everyone takes the issue seriously and is concerned about it. Thanks again to Danny and Peter for summarising the debate. <BR /> <BR />I welcome the opportunity to wind on the motion, which is about reducing the number of young people who vape or might consider vaping. I hope that it will go some way towards doing that. Throughout the debate, Members addressed crucial issues including to what extent accountability for tackling the growing problem, specifically on school grounds, should rest with the education system.”
“Danny and Peter have given thorough accounts of Members' comments, so I do not want everyone to have to sit through that a third time.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle.”
“Professor Mary Renfrew presented to the all-party group on women's health last year on the brilliant work that she was carrying out, so I am delighted to hear today's announcement. The RQIA review, with its 23 recommendations on governance, was published in April 2023. Does the Minister have any update on whether any of those recommendations have been delivered? He talked about a regional action plan for maternity and neonatal services. Will that allow work to continue on a renewed maternity strategy, taking into consideration all the reports, or is the focus now on the action plan?”