Jonathan Buckley
Upper Bann · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“Sinn Féin's representatives in the European Parliament voted against proposals aimed at strengthening the management of illegal immigration and facilitating the return of failed asylum applicants — those who entered countries illegally — to designated return hubs outside the European Union.”
“Last year, Sinn Féin, alongside the open-border brigade of the Alliance Party and the SDLP, voted against my motion in the Assembly that called for action to address concerns about illegal and uncontrolled immigration.”
“People want an immigration system that is controlled, credible and properly enforced whilst ensuring that the genuine, heartfelt, lived experience and concerns of local citizens are at the heart of the debate. That is not an unreasonable position to take.”
“I highlight yet another example of a political party claiming to represent the views of people across the island of Ireland yet taking a position that is fundamentally out of step with the concerns being expressed by a vast number of people across Northern Ireland, the Republic of Ireland and, indeed, the rest of the United Kingdom, and t…”
“The Minister is aware and is, in fact, on record as having suggested that organised drug crime is happening in prisons. I have previously raised that matter in the Assembly.”
“Minister, I am sure that you agree that we cannot continue to leave residents in limbo. There has to be some progress on the matter. A number of unfinished developments have been lying stagnant for a long time, but the number is so small that it would not require that great an amount of money to ensure adequate facilities for residents, e…”
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“The answers simply were not forthcoming, and it is a damning indictment that, while we curtail parliamentary scrutiny in the House, when it comes to Committees such as the Health Committee, basic questions are asked two weeks in, and there is still no clarity or answer; in fact, the answers were just forthcoming on Friday, before this debate. I do not think that that is acceptable, and I do not think it is a level of scrutiny that anybody can stand over. <BR /> <BR />There should be scrutiny of the science as well. The regulations were brought into place, but the data and evidence that supported the closure came after calls in the Assembly for the data to be released. It should have been the other way around.”
“<BR /> <BR />I mentioned this at the Committee, and the Chair of the Committee touched on it in his remarks: I was shocked to hear Health officials come to the Committee who could not even answer the most basic of questions about how the regulations affected everyday lives. They were not questions that were off the wall; they had been trawled through the media for weeks. When simple questions were asked, they could not answer. They were simple questions from the Committee, such as the evidence base for the introduction of all the rules or "As we are now two weeks into the four-week period of restrictions, how well does the Department assess the restrictions imposed are working to reduce the spread of transmission?". They were simple questions around compliance and enforcement information.”
“In the days since lockdown began, how many young people have contacted us, frustrated that their lives are on hold because of something as basic and fundamental to their freedom as a driving test? There was good news: things had started to get moving again, albeit that there was a backlog in the system. Now, because of the regulations that were passed, those young people still cannot pass their driving test and start to contribute to society and maybe to their household bills etc. They cannot do so at the moment because of the regulations that are in force. I implore the Infrastructure Minister to bring forward a plan to see driving tests resumed across Northern Ireland and ensure that those young people can be dealt with as soon as possible.”
“I know that I speak for a lot of people who are in close-contact services, and I can think of beauticians and hairdressers who were forced to close their doors. I think that Members across the Chamber will agree that, if there was anybody that was abiding by the regulations and had invested money and time to put the practices in place to ensure a safe environment, it was those industries. Yet, because of the blanket approach that was applied to the regulations, they were all forced to close. Sadly, the financial assistance promised to them has been slow, and that is through no fault of their own. They were promised support, and it is important that we, as an Executive and an Assembly, stand by our word and support those people in these difficult times. <BR /> <BR />I also want to refer to the likes of driving tests.”
“That is not true. We heard on the radio this morning and on air waves from across the world that there are scientists and doctors who look at different approaches, and it is only right and proper that we, as Members, give those due consideration. At the Committee, when we were discussing the vital lack of the transparency that allows us to really home in on the regulations, the Clerk informed us that, because they were laid in the way that they were with no consultation and no stakeholder engagement, we, the politicians, had become that stakeholder. It is vital that, whatever direction of travel the Executive take, the Assembly is given its place and the opportunity not only to question but to scrutinise the evidence presented. <BR /> <BR />There are many questions that come from the data that we receive.”
“I would like to see the junior Minister address that today. <BR /> <BR />I noted at the Health Committee that the Member for South Down Mr McGrath had brought forward a unanimous suggestion that we write to the First Minister and deputy First Minister, as well as the Executive, to look at alternative ways in which the House can give the regulations the scrutiny that they deserve. Every Member would agree with that, but we cannot have an approach where we have our cake and eat it. I listened to Mr McGrath say, on the one hand, that he was calling for full and proper scrutiny of the regulations — I agree with him 100% on that — but, on the other hand, he was saying that anybody who dares to speak against or disagree with the approach adopted by the Chief Medical Officer or Chief Scientific Adviser is in direct violation of the regulations.”
“That goes to the heart of our democracy, and those are the points that I really want to get on to today. <BR /> <BR />COVID has wreaked havoc on the democratic processes not only in the Assembly but in democracies across the world. We see a need to balance speed of action from Ministers on targeted intervention where it may be required and curtailing public debate on these important issues. We can all agree that any restriction, no matter how vain it may feel to some Members, has a massive impact on day-to-day life. I think that I said at my first Health Committee meeting last week that the public will be as bewildered as I am that, because of the mechanisms in the House, here we are, three weeks in and four days before the regulations come out of force, debating them in the House only now.”
“Four clinicians wrote collectively in a letter to us all to say:”
“Not just at this time. I will give way at a later point. <BR /> <BR />There are other issues where people with cancer and other such serious illnesses are missing appointments. Unfortunately, lives will be lost as a result of the lockdown measures that have been put in place. I have said it clearly before, and I will say it again: COVID kills — we have no doubt of that — but lockdown can kill also. <BR /> <BR />I outlined the concerns that I had about the restrictions that were put in place at the time, as did other Members, and I outlined that people in the business community had concerns for their livelihood. It is also important to note that there are medical professionals who do not agree with the strategy of lockdown. I refer to the note that we all received, and I think that it received some media publicity today.”
“The Member talked about lives being saved as a result of the Executive's actions, and I have no doubt that that, perhaps, is the case in many of the circumstances that the Member outlined. However, lives have been lost as a result of the restrictions that have been put in place. I know that the Member has taken a strong interest in suicide throughout his time in this place. People are suffering from adverse mental health. There are also those in —.”
“I thank the Member for his comments. He refers specifically to the restrictions in Londonderry and Strabane. That was a targeted approach. If the evidence is clear that action must be taken, I support such an approach. I do not support blanket restrictions across an entire sector or industry when we can, in fact, through test, trace and isolate and the data that our scientists etc are collecting, look at more specific, targeted solutions to deal with the COVID outbreak, wherever it may be.”
“They were very much in compliance with the basic health messaging of observing good hygiene practices, social distancing and wearing face coverings. I expect that the junior Minister will elaborate on that. <BR /> <BR />The sectors were not the only ones calling into question a lot of these regulations. As I mentioned in my speech during the debate on the third Budget, a document called 'Protecting Lives, Protecting Livelihoods: Finding a Balance to Protect our Community and our Economy' was released by a number of businesses. Some of its content needs to be repeated here today:”
“We heard those in the hospitality sector crying out for much-needed intervention and asking that we look at different ways in which they, as an industry, could coexist with the virus. Hopefully, the junior Minister will elaborate on this. I understand that he and his colleagues have done a lot of work, looking at the hospitality industry and how it might, potentially, become COVID compliant. Members will join me in asserting that, although some businesses, sadly, acted irresponsibly, many businesses across the breadth of this country stayed in line and kept to the spirit of the regulations that were introduced. When given the opportunity to reopen, thankfully, they acted in an appropriate way.”
“I thank the Member for her intervention. I agree, and, keeping to the spirit of her language, I think that seeing a mutated strain of COVID-19 in an animal species such as mink is deeply worrying. Northern Ireland does not have any mink farms but the fact that there are mink farms on our periphery, in Donegal etc, is alarming. It would have been preferable to have a Minister here to talk on the issue today but, unfortunately, we are where we are, as outlined by the Speaker. <BR /> <BR />The regulations need to be targeted, balanced and proportionate. This is what society has been grappling with since the moment that regulations were introduced. It is why many in the Assembly called for targeted data and evidence to show why a particular sector had been targeted with such an approach.”
“I very much support that line of thought and, as we have learned to come to terms with the devastating effects that COVID has had on our society, we have also learned that lockdown is simply not the answer. <BR /> <BR />Lockdown is simply not a sustainable mechanism and strategy as it is built purely on the premise that a solution via a vaccine is needed. We have heard promising conversations in the media today about a vaccine. However, the premise of a lockdown is based solely on the need for a vaccine. We have to look at long-term sustainable solutions, and society needs to learn to live and adapt to the situation in which we are now.”
“I rise to speak as a newly appointed member of the Health Committee. I will make no bones about it, my view about this specific set of regulations is on the record as being sceptical and critical. I am still as sceptical and critical today as on the day on which the regulations were introduced. <BR /> <BR />My party's view is also on the record, and Members can reflect on the differing opinions in the Chamber about the approach that should be adopted going forward. I took great interest in listening not only to colleagues from different parties but to the junior Ministers, who are on record as saying that we need to live and coexist with the virus. Indeed, the junior Minister said that we cannot legislate our way through COVID.”
“I have met various representatives of the travel industry and know acutely, as, I know, the Minister does, the pain that they face at this time. It is about how we ensure that the industry rebounds from what has undoubtedly been a very difficult period. Does the Minister agree that we should look at giving a rates holiday to those businesses, given the length of the tail of recovery that is expected?”
“Further to that point of order, I would like you to pass to the Speaker's office the fact that I submitted a question for urgent oral answer on this very topic. I thought that it was of notable concern, given that it is now spreading through animals and given the potential impact on Northern Ireland.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. I am supportive of the concept that he has talked about and, in particular, the restrictions that have been placed on microbreweries etc. Is it not a sad shame — I am sure that the Member will agree with me — that some of those brands are much more popular internationally than locally given the restrictions that are in place?”
“I thank the Minister for her response. The stadium has a capacity of 18,000 supporters, who will be outdoors and have considerable space for social distancing. Can the Minister elaborate on what numbers are under consideration?”
“I welcome the support packages that have been provided to clubs and, now that planning permission has been approved for Casement Park, attention now rightly turns to funding. With a shortfall of £33 million, I am delighted that the Minister has accepted the reality that additional contributions must come from the GAA to fulfil that commitment. Will the Minister please outline the discussion that she has had with the GAA, and the potential funding allocation that she will require to progress the stadium?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. My intervention is in the same vein. I am glad that you mentioned in detail the societal harms of alcohol consumption. With two thirds of all alcohol sold being consumed in the home, it is, indeed, worrying that that is an unregulated environment. Clause 16 limits supermarket advertising, and, like me, I am sure that the Member welcomes that measure. Will you agree that, worryingly, the failure to regulate and limit digital advertising is a missed opportunity and is something that the Committee could take hold of? In the day and age in which we live, a lot of the information consumed by people is via Facebook, social media interactions and digital communication, and if we are trying to solve the advertising problem in supermarkets, we must also regulate advertising in the digital market.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. She will know my interest in the topic, given the vast number of microbreweries in my constituency and the cider producers in the orchard county. Will she agree with me that it is a sad reality that, to date, a lot of the microbreweries and craft distillers have been unable to sell their products even within the current pub/restaurant set-up, given the control element that large corporations have on those taps in bars and restaurants?”
“I welcome the Minister's statement and support the transformation of the Housing Executive, but she will remember from my time on the Committee and from my comments in the House that I was critical and sceptical of the removal and closure of the right-to-buy scheme, which she mentioned. At the time, the Minister of the day and Department officials said that they would bring forward practical alternatives to that scheme, because I believed that it was crucial to allow working families to fulfil the aspiration of home ownership. Can the Minister elaborate on those potential alternatives? We know that land availability is a serious issue. A number of months ago, the House passed a Living over the Shop scheme. Has the Minister had any further consideration of a potential scheme to meet that need?”
“I thank the Minister for giving way. On that point, the University of Ulster carried out economic analysis on the important rate relief that is so essential to the budgets of businesses of that type. Will you consider widening the scope of that to cater for businesses that, unfortunately, may not have been forced to close but are facing the impact?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. This is a problem that I face daily in my constituency. I have been liaising with the Minister on dog kennels, for example, for a long time. The knock-on impact of locking down the economy has budgetary impacts on many different sectors. To date, the Minister has relied on research, and I understand the need for it at the time, carried out by the Ulster University Economic Policy Centre, to establish the sectors that should be awarded rate relief. However, that has not taken into account those sectors that have had no support, and because of the sectors that are closed, there is essentially no business there for establishments that have been asked to stay open.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. The Member makes an interesting point that I have heard him make in the House before. Will he accept that, potentially, there is the ability to have that public conversation and make that change in light of the pressures facing our hospitals due to COVID-19?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. Does he agree with me that information is paramount in the budgetary process? Information feeds into the process where relief is needed and where it should not be provided. Therefore, the lack of data, to which you referred, should be every bit as important to the Finance Minister as it is to the Health Minister. Unfortunately, we are not seeing that.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. I support his call. I have no doubt of the future pressures facing NI Water and our infrastructure system, but will he agree with me that it is equally incumbent on the Finance Minister to look at the problems facing legacy developments because of a lack of investment in NI Water? We have a number of developments right across Northern Ireland that have been standing incomplete for some 10 years because of a historical lack of funding.”
“I am not shirking from the fact that, in the wider debate, a balance must be struck. However, when making a speech in the Budget debate, it would be negligent of me not to highlight the impact on businesses. I have said it, and the Member for Upper Bann has said it: we have to learn to live with this virus. There are no easy solutions. However, as I said earlier, show the people the evidence and the data. <BR /> <BR />Tough decisions lie ahead for this place. We have been dealing with a health emergency; equally, we have an economic emergency. In the mouth of Christmas, people are asking where the money to pay their next bill will come from. It is up to this place — to the Finance Minister and his colleagues — to provide a sound economic footing for their future and a sound plan to deal with the pressures that we all know are coming.”
“Absolutely, Mr Deputy Speaker. I thank the Member for Upper Bann for his question. I must have been saying something right, because he ran from his room to the Chamber to listen to me speak. I am all for constituency support, but I did not expect it to come from the Member opposite.”
“Yes, sorry. I thank the Member for his question. I will never shy away from the reality that faces the health service. The Member will have previous colleagues who served as Health Ministers in the last 10 years, as has my party and others. There has to be the realisation that we cannot play the health service like a political football. Equally, we must realise that the decisions that we make in this place have devastating knock-on impacts on people. GPs' face-to-face consultations are down by 92%. What have we missed in the system?”
“I am not a Minister, but I will happily give way.”
“Never mind the potential impact on our health service from dealing with COVID, the significant allocation from this Budget to Health will also have to realise the pressures that are facing non-COVID services. COVID kills but so does lockdown. We need the data for Northern Ireland.”
“I think that £600 million was set aside for Health. The impact of COVID on managing staffing pressures throughout the Health ecosystem in Northern Ireland is going to be incredibly critical in the days ahead. Craigavon Area Hospital has 500 staff who are out of the system when it is facing its busiest period. I welcome additional funding allocations to try to address those pressures. <BR /> <BR />I want to talk about non-COVID services and, sadly, non-COVID deaths, which this Budget will have to take into consideration in the days ahead. I read in a paper this morning that the Office for National Statistics reported a surge in non-COVID deaths in England: diabetic deaths are up by 86%; prostate cancer deaths are up by 53%; breast cancer deaths are up by 47%; Parkinson's disease deaths are up by 79%; and bowel cancer deaths are up by 46%.”
“In this and other Budgets, we require — and I am sure the Minister has it — information, forecasts and projections that will inform his decision-making on the Budget that he presents. Equally, that means that data on COVID is equally important to feed into his decision-making on where that relief should come from next. It has been released today, in a previous question that I asked the Health Minister, but the data has not been released quickly enough to inform Ministers at the Executive, Members of the House and, indeed, the wider public with regard to the measures that are put in place. <BR /> <BR />In closing, I will turn to the issue of health; the most important issue of all. I recognise the huge pressure on the Department of Health and the financial allocations that have been made to it in this Budget and others.”
“Those are the issues that this Budget has to deal with and that Members will have to grapple with as we go into the future. <BR /> <BR />We must bear that point in mind. There has been much discussion in the Chamber about the economic impact of COVID and this Budget on different sections of society, but we can all agree that it will be low-paid workers, in the hospitality industry or elsewhere, some of them in close-contact services, who will be hurt the most. We must have a compassionate response. We must bear in mind that, yes, COVID-19 kills. We all know that; we have seen its devastating impact, but restrictions and lockdown measures will also do the same. <BR /> <BR />Data is required for planning.”
“Many of our self-employed are looking at another lockdown with no money in their pocket, their businesses closed at one of their busiest times, bills still coming in, mortgage repayments, staff costs, and furlough coming to an end. The situation is dire, and they say, loud and clear, that it may be all right for people in the public sector and for, and I do not say this in a personal sense in any way, politicians and medical or scientific officers. They say, "The decisions that you make do not affect your livelihood, but I have a child at home whom I have to feed and put bread on the table for. I have a business that relies on staff who have been loyal to me and worked with me, and they simply do not know where their next week's wage will come from".”
“I have heard Ministers, Chief Medical Officers, Chief Scientific Advisers and commentators at large say, "There may be a need for further lockdowns down the line". That simply will not cut it, however. You cannot turn the Northern Ireland economy on and off like a tap. You cannot put people in and then out if their business is to be economically viable. They are here today but gone tomorrow. Their jobs and livelihoods depend on the decisions that we make in this House. <BR /> <BR />In looking at this Budget, many people will come to the conclusion, "What is in it for me? I am being told to close my business". I have heard the compelling stories.”
“life viable. <BR /> <BR />It goes on to say:”
“which will ultimately impact on future Budgets. <BR /> <BR />It continues:”
“As I have said, our economy faces its bleakest period in my lifetime. <BR /> <BR />All Members will have received copies of the three-point plan, 'Finding a Balance to Protect our Community and our Economy', which was released by a number of businesses. Paragraphs in it certainly deserve to be quoted, because they are in line with what we are discussing:”
“I will now comment on the economy. Although the Budget is welcome because it makes allocations to those parts of our economy that are undoubtedly facing disruption, Members will agree that there is no simple answer, because there is no money tree. We have seen what the first wave of COVID-19 did. Support mechanisms were put in place by the Executive, but they were also put in place by the grace of Her Majesty's Government through the financial package that was able to support and sustain not only livelihoods but businesses across the country. <BR /> <BR />This Budget simply will not go far enough, and I do not think that even the Minister will say that it does. There is simply not enough money in the system. We have to remember that, in the situation that we are in, with limited resources, actions taken have consequences.”
“I thank the Member for his intervention. I do not shrug away what the Member said about the cases in schools, but what I am told and what I see is that there is very little impact in relation to transmissions in the wider school population. I say to the Member that, if the problem is not as outlined by the Chief Medical Officer in a meeting that I had with him, and if the problem is at the school gate and outside the school environment, yes, there is a communication issue. Let us look at that and see what we can do. I will now draw back to the Budget because that has maybe taken me off a wee bit. I agree that measures must be put in place, but the education of our children is paramount — paramount.”
“I will, shortly. Schools should be open because it is a controlled environment and there is very little scientific data available that shows that schools are the cause of the transmission. I really feel in my heart, Mr Deputy Speaker, that, if we are serious about the economic viability and are serious about Budget allocations to education, we must act with common sense and put the protections in place, whether for the avoidance of transmission at the gate, or whatever is needed, to allow our children to have a future. I believe that that happens in the classroom.”
“Many of those schoolteachers are absolutely horrified that they are not in the classroom teaching pupils. They fear for them and for their economic future. They are fearful about the short-term impacts, whether it is being at home and away from the classroom or the complex needs at home. <BR /> <BR />They have absolutely got this wrong, in my opinion. Schools should be open because —.”
“<BR /> <BR />Budgets are about planning ahead, being prudent and providing a sound financial basis for the future, but let us face it: this Budget, as a result of COVID-19 and some actions by the Executive in placing restrictions on schools, is not providing the sound basis on which our children can look to the future with hope. Investing in their future is having them in the classroom being taught directly. That gets to the heart of the impact that this Budget will have. While we can throw money at online learning — we need to — there is no substitute for face-to-face interaction with a teacher in the classroom. <BR /> <BR />Do you know something, Mr Deputy Speaker? As you probably have, I have heard many criticise the teachers across this country who now face more time out of the classroom.”
“I turn briefly to education. I know that, regardless of party, Members place the education of our young people at the very heart of our economic and societal future. Whatever it might be, it starts with education. To say that COVID-19 has placed challenges on them would be an understatement. School closures have placed the school estate and individual schools under pressure that they have never experienced before. Funding is required for essential infrastructure. We know that. A couple of weeks ago, I had an Adjournment debate in the House about the school estate in Upper Bann. It would scare you to look into the school estate — I am sure that any Member could do that in their constituency — and see the need for investment and what is required, but the money is simply not there.”
“They have no idea of the confusion and chaos that that causes for those in that sector as they attempt to do their best in difficult circumstances. The majority of their income is based on ticket sales. They have had no support from the Executive for the loss of money at the gates. We must react positively or we will not have a sporting future in this country. I say that with regret, but that is what they face.”
“It caused me great concern that, at the weekend, hours before the Irish League was due to start, we had mixed messaging. The Communities Minister said that spectators would not be allowed in the club grounds.”