Jonathan Buckley
Upper Bann · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“Sinn Féin's representatives in the European Parliament voted against proposals aimed at strengthening the management of illegal immigration and facilitating the return of failed asylum applicants — those who entered countries illegally — to designated return hubs outside the European Union.”
“Last year, Sinn Féin, alongside the open-border brigade of the Alliance Party and the SDLP, voted against my motion in the Assembly that called for action to address concerns about illegal and uncontrolled immigration.”
“People want an immigration system that is controlled, credible and properly enforced whilst ensuring that the genuine, heartfelt, lived experience and concerns of local citizens are at the heart of the debate. That is not an unreasonable position to take.”
“I highlight yet another example of a political party claiming to represent the views of people across the island of Ireland yet taking a position that is fundamentally out of step with the concerns being expressed by a vast number of people across Northern Ireland, the Republic of Ireland and, indeed, the rest of the United Kingdom, and t…”
“The Minister is aware and is, in fact, on record as having suggested that organised drug crime is happening in prisons. I have previously raised that matter in the Assembly.”
“Minister, I am sure that you agree that we cannot continue to leave residents in limbo. There has to be some progress on the matter. A number of unfinished developments have been lying stagnant for a long time, but the number is so small that it would not require that great an amount of money to ensure adequate facilities for residents, e…”
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“Equally, we must go above and beyond what is there at present. I know your Department is actively looking at the supermarket priority list at the moment, but we are in the midst of this epidemic and I hope that the Minister will seek some clarity on that to get that scheme implemented. I appreciate the indulgence to go beyond where we are. I thank the Minister for listening.”
“Many of the chief executives are actually hiding behind the Local Government Act (Northern Ireland) 2014 and the need for public admittance to public galleries. Can the Minister respond on this issue and maybe provide detail at a later date? Again, the detail that we see here with the private tenancies, there is indeed a nature within local councils that they must react in a way that is suitable to the response that we need. I know that the Minister will maybe take this up later. <BR /> <BR />By and large, as we move forward, I welcome the Minister's commitment to legislation to protect those in private rented accommodation. In many regards, they are among the most vulnerable in society, and we have watched as the Minister has put in place different provisions to provide help for those in vulnerable positions.”
“I will gladly give way. <BR /> <BR />Given the sitiuation we find ourselves in, the flexibility and the timely nature of the Bill are fair. I hope the Minister will indulge me, and indeed you, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker, if I ask another question of the Minister because perhaps this will be the only opportunity when she will be able to address it in the House. I pay tribute to the House authorities and, indeed, you, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker, and how you have conducted the business within this place during the period of COVID-19. Stormont has, indeed, led on that, and Westminister is now meeting as well — that has been important. <BR /> <BR />My point still stands, and I am sure other Members will agree, councils are a key linchpin in the response required to COVID-19 and the Minister has responsibility for them.”
“I echo the comments of Mr Durkan and I do not intend to go over the ground that I was on last week. We have well rehearsed the merits of this Bill, albeit within very difficult circumstances. The Bill is a direct response to COVID-19 and the need to have some sort of remit and responsibility placed upon those in private accommodation, landlords etc. It is broadly in line with the provisions that are already in place for those within Housing Executive properties. Again, it allows the Minister flexibility during this moving situation to broadly reflect the three-month mortgage holiday for landlords.”
“<BR /> <BR />A constituent approached me on that very issue not so long ago and talked about the coercive control that they were facing. They talked about how individuals have used the legal aid system to effectively bankrupt and to disrupt their day-to-day life as they have attempted to move on from the horrific abuse that they have suffered. Those are all elements for discussion and there is so much, when it comes to domestic abuse, that must be considered. I trust that the Committee will take on those points. I, as a Member who is not on the Committee for Justice, look forward to playing my part. <BR /> <BR />In closing, as has been said, there must be more than words. There has to be substance and detail and it must provide results for those who are suffering domestic abuse.”
“We have seen it in the past days, and my friend Mr Givan mentioned that during the period of COVID-19, the police received 2,000 domestic abuse calls in the first three weeks of April. That is scandalous. We can look at the period between July 2018 and June 2019 and see that 16,575 domestic abuse cases were recorded. We know that this is on the rise, whether that is because of COVID-19 or something else, but we must sufficiently equip the PSNI with the appropriate resources to deal with these very issues. I, therefore, look forward to working in a very proactive and constructive way with the Minister and, indeed, with the Committee to bring about a resolution to this legislation and to strengthen it in a way that is befitting to all Members.”
“I take cognisance of what my friend Mr Frew said about the need for further examination in the days ahead. There are many elements that will require further scrutiny as the Bill heads towards Committee Stage and to Consideration Stage. Not least of those is the impact that the changes will have on courts and on police officers, which Mr Beattie mentioned, and the scope and cost of the training that is needed and that will be provided. That is important, and any legislation that the House puts in place must not be mere window dressing. It must have substance, it must stand for something and, in fact, it must do what it says on the tin, which is to legislate in a meaningful way to restrict this abuse.”
“<BR /> <BR />Ms Dillon mentioned this, but I also want to cover the compassionate approach that the legislation takes to cross-examination by perpetrators of these crimes. That is a compassionate approach from the Department because not only can one not imagine the extent of the distress of being in any court being cross-examined by a barrister or someone from the legal profession but the pain caused by being cross-examined by the very person who committed or who is said to have committed said crimes is hard to imagine. I welcome that. <BR /> <BR />I will bring the Minister's attention to the potential for convictions and sentencing under clauses 13 and 14. I welcome the strengthening of that provision. I believe that, as a society, we must put out strong signals that we will not tolerate this in Northern Ireland.”
“However, we can look at it as having money taken away or controlled, being isolated from friends and family, having access to food, drinks and day-to-day products restricted, having social media accounts monitored or controlled, being told what you should or should not wear, being threatened with violence if you do not act or behave in a certain way or loved ones or pets being threatened. How many of us today can hear that list and say that we have not seen what is on it in action in our communities? It is all too sad that that is the reality, and, for many, these coercive controls are happening day-to-day and most of society has turned a blind eye. It is important that we put that right here today, and I welcome that the Minister included coercive control in the Bill.”
“<BR /> <BR />I welcome that today all parties broadly support the type of legislation that is coming forward and that, in particular — I welcome this — the legislation makes coercive control an offence for the first time in Northern Ireland, showing us how out of step we had become with the rest of jurisdictions, which had already legislated on this. It is important that we look at examples of coercive control, because, for many, those words do not mean anything.”
“In an earlier debate, Sinn Féin's John O'Dowd said that he made no excuse for being political in the Chamber and that that is what we are elected to do. I take umbrage at that, because this today can be seen as the result of what being political means. Sinn Féin has been political in its approach to COVID-19. That is clear for all to see. Despicably, it is true. In relation to the domestic abuse legislation, one of the very consequences of tearing this place down was that this piece of life-saving legislation was, shamelessly, left to sit on the shelf while people suffered in their home.”
“I cannot help but think how horrific that must be for anybody, and in particular now, with all the restrictions that are in place, not even being able to leave your house, whether that is for a breath of fresh air or to gather your thoughts. <BR /> <BR />Those types of issues are real and live today. We know the consequences of domestic abuse but we now need, as has been demonstrated, to strengthen Northern Ireland's domestic abuse laws because, let us face it, it is a damning indictment on this place that we are only getting round to dealing with this issue now. We must address that, and address it head on.”
“<BR /> <BR />Throughout the period of COVID-19, many of our constituents, and indeed many Members, have come to the immediate realisation that, for many, the family home is a place of refuge, care and attention, where we can be with our loved ones, share company and fellowship, and help one another. We only have to look at pictures that have been going out over social media in relation to the crisis, where we have seen how the strength and the bond of a family unit is essential to get us through what is a very difficult time. However, for those who have suffered domestic abuse, or where there are developing signs in the family home towards domestic abuse, it is true, as has been mentioned today, that they have been caged in their homes, locked away with the very perpetrators of that abuse.”
“Again I stand in the House today as someone who speaks on behalf of those in my constituency who are innocent victims of domestic abuse and those who have witnessed it. God willing, it be on record that I speak on behalf of them, and for preventative action to stop that type of action happening in the future. <BR /> <BR />Being able to talk today on the Bill brings home very starkly to Members the reality of domestic abuse. I want to look at that, because, for many, the term "domestic abuse" can mean many things, but I think that it is important that we spell it out here today. Physical abuse is sometimes the most horrific abuse. Sexual abuse, emotional abuse, financial abuse and modern slavery in the home: that is what domestic abuse looks like. Members, it is happening day in, day out in Northern Ireland.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. It might give him a chance to reopen his locked computer. Would he agree that the very issues that he raises are the types of loopholes that perpetrators would look for in circumstances like this? We all know that one of the primary aspects of coercive control and this type of behavioural instinct is psychological damage. We have heard stories of individuals for whom the psychological impact is so damaging that someone claiming to know more about the substance of such legislation than they do incapacitates them and leaves them in the home feeling hopeless and worthless.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. She raises a very important point. Would she agree that it is important that the Bill allows for the flexibility for this House to react as and when the situation develops? You mentioned potential changes to mortgage interest rates etc. It is important that the House maintains control and the ability to act as this situations unfolds.”
“Without the supply of housing from that private rented sector, a lot of our community who are in need — in particular, social housing need — could end up homeless, as was outlined earlier by some Members. We cannot get away from the reality that the demand and supply is simply not there in the Housing Executive or housing associations. The private rented sector plays a crucial role in supplying housing to those who are in need.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. While he points out that this may be a lesson to be learnt, we cannot get away from the simple fact of demand and supply.”
“I thank the Member and agree entirely with his comments. It is important that the flexibility is there to mirror and match the situation that unfolds. My point was to reiterate that, if this public health emergency continues and the three-month mortgage holiday continues, it is literally a pause in payment. The money still has to come when this period ends. I think there is a plethora of consequences, no matter what way you look at this, but I welcome the point that the Member has outlined. That flexibility, and the ability of the Minister to intervene and make changes as needed, is essential in dealing with the fast-changing environment in which we find ourselves.”
“I would appreciate it if the Minister could go into a bit more detail as to how we can ensure that there has been reasonable agreement. <BR /> <BR />The potential need for extension to this measure was mentioned, depending on how the public health emergency progresses. I also have some concern around that because the three-month mortgage holiday may extend to cover that period and then this legislation will mirror that in subsequent action.”
“Since then, I recognise that there has been communication with the Landlords Association, a wider remit of tenants and with the Committee. That is important because communication is essential. Landlords must be provided with the relevant information so that they know that they are providing and operating within the law. <BR /> <BR />Another point to bear in mind is that the Department's approach seems to allow for a reasonable period of time for a landlord and a tenant to come to some sort of reasonable agreement with regard to payment. As you and I know, Mr Deputy Speaker, in a lot of these delicate circumstances where the tenant and landlord relationship has broken down, the ability to find reasonable agreement may be reasonable to one party and wholly unreasonable to the other. That can work both ways.”
“The legislation is there to prevent overzealous landlords from acting in an unbefitting way, but it places more liberties at the hands of some residents that, potentially, could abuse the system. The Department outlines that, if landlords are facing problems with tenants around anti-social behaviour, the only form of redress is to approach the PSNI. That may not result in any action but it would put a lot of pressure on communities that are, potentially, seeing people not abiding by social-distancing practices, neighbourhood parties etc and the landlord has no actual ability to deal with it. <BR /> <BR />I welcomed the conversation at the Committee on this Bill; I thought it was most helpful. We raised a lot of concern around how to communicate this.”
“I understand that and I also understand that there have been some landlords who, in the past, have acted in a totally unbefitting manner to vulnerable tenants and others, but we have to recognise that there are many landlords who are helping people. They have already, before legislation came into place, entered into agreements with their tenants to enable payments in these difficult circumstances. <BR />We also have to note that, as has already been said, for many private landlords this is their only source of income. While they have had access to a three-month mortgage holiday, it does not mean that the financial pressure goes away; it is put on hold. <BR /> <BR />One of my primary concerns around this legislation is the potential for abuse.”
“I will be brief, because the Committee Chairperson has already outlined many of my points. I understand the context of this Bill with regard to the provisions that have already been put in place for some landlords with the three-month mortgage holiday and, as outlined by Mrs Ennis, provisions for those in Housing Executive properties. Given the fact that the courts are not processing evictions or repossessions, it makes sense that this supporting legislation is in place. <BR /> <BR />Mrs Armstrong, quite rightly, pointed out something around landlords that I also want to refer to. It is very easy, when legislation such as this comes before the House, to demonise landlords.”
“Potentially, they can access this funding and use the community, albeit not a constituted group, to get involved in the delivery of those goods. That is the type of creative thinking that I would like to see from the Department.”
“I thank the Minister for giving way and welcome her desire to look at some element of flexibility within the Department. I suggest that there is potential room for flexibility within that scheme. At the moment, you are right. If administered through councils, only "constituted community groups" may access the funding. They can work in conjunction with another group, but sometimes that is where barriers start to come up. They are not always connected in the same way or they may have a different remit or focus. Potentially, a way in which this might be accessed is through businesses, for example. In my constituency, rural businesses have worked alongside some of those groups to deliver groceries and essentials.”
“We are indeed, quite rightly, targeting those that we know are vulnerable, but there are also others that are particularly vulnerable at this time who, perhaps, do not fall under the specific discretionary support that was mentioned. Nonetheless, it is important that we, as Members, raise this with the Minister, and perhaps we can look at a broader remit for the support package. That being said, I support the regulations.”
“I think that, if we can reach them, and they, in turn, can reach their community, we can lessen the impact that many face at this time. <BR /> <BR />I also want to mention charities, many of which face a devastating loss of income. I think particularly of the good work that is going on with a lot of charities in our communities, and I have taken the example of Portadown YMCA in my constituency. It has led from the front, collecting perishable and non-perishable goods to deliver and distribute to the community. Has the Minister given any consideration to a form of hardship grant that could help to alleviate the pressures that charities face at this time? They are still providing a valuable service.”
“However, the Minister will recognise, as indeed will other Members, that, over the course of COVID-19, we have seen a massive influx of those who have been involved in community activism. They are not joining the normal community groups that are already constituted and in place. They have set up their own groups, which are much more targeted and, in some cases, much more effective at reaching those who are not within the remit or grasp of constituted community groups. They have been unable to access grant funding because they are not constituted community groups and do not have bank accounts. I ask the Minister to look at ways in which we can reach such organisations, specifically those that were set up specifically with COVID-19 in mind.”
“In the past two weeks — the Minister will recognise this — I have been moved by the charitable nature of our community that has been manifest by neighbours, sports clubs and various organisations that fall under the Minister's remit. As this crisis unfolds, the Minister will have to give considerable attention to those organisations. I recognise that, in many cases, there has been some movement on providing payments. We must, however, explore how we can reach those organisations that, essentially, are not being reached. I want to mention two of them. <BR /> <BR />I welcome the coronavirus community fund that the Minister released. It is an essential tool to enable community groups to access funding in order to help those in need in their community.”
“I recognise what the Minister said about the cost, and I urge her to keep it under constant review. We have, it is fair to say, widened the net for discretionary payments, but we and the Department are uncertain of their total cost. <BR /> <BR />I also want to put on record my concern about the administration of support and the pressure on staff. Will the Minister outline how this discretionary payment can be swiftly applied in the most appropriate manner? Maybe officials from other places in the Department could be directed to help, given that we expect a huge influx of applicants for the payment. <BR /> <BR />My thoughts are primarily with those who have lost loved ones. I cannot begin even to imagine the pain that they have been going through having, as mentioned, been denied such basic functions of life.”
“I found that a particularly useful way for Committee members to feed into the process our key concerns, many of which have been addressed in what the Minister has brought forward. I know that Committee members will continue to put their concerns on record. <BR /> <BR />In essence, for all those who are eligible, these amendments are to be welcomed. They will go some way to easing the fears and concerns that the vulnerable in our community face. However, on the back of the regulations, I have a number of questions, which, I trust, the Minister will, potentially, address. Some have been mentioned. As the Chair stated, we do not easily mention cost in these times. We understand that many people need support, and need it now, but it would be wrong of us, as Members, not to think of the economic impact of the measures.”
“However, I must say that, as an elected representative, operating in such a fashion goes very much against the grain. <BR /> <BR />I am relieved that the Assembly can still meet, that we can still put questions to the Minister and that we can help to improve the situation that we face. That said, as I mentioned before, I am on record as stating at the Committee my desire to work alongside the Minister in these deeply uncertain times. Extraordinary times call for extraordinary measures. For that cooperation to happen — this has been mentioned as one of the Committee's key concerns — I urge the Minister and her Department to continue that ongoing engagement with the Committee. I welcome the fact that we had a conference call with the Minister and her departmental officials.”
“I ask that we continue to show them patience and understanding throughout this period. Front-line essential workers face the most insurmountable pressure. It is crucial that we support them as best we can. <BR /> <BR />I support the discretionary support regulations that have been brought to the House by the Minister, albeit in far-from-ideal circumstances, as was outlined by the Committee Chair. As a member of the Committee for Communities, I, along with other members, have been afforded little to no opportunity to scrutinise the regulations that are before the House. I know that these are the times in which we live, and I welcome the essential asset of speed in getting that targeted help to the people who are most in need.”
“We may not see that coming through now, but there will come a time when the pressure on the Department and, in particular, those staff will be quite considerable. It is up to us, as the Committee, to support them. I know that the Minister will continue to do that in her role. <BR /> <BR />We know that the Department for Communities has carried out schemes to provide people with essential non-perishable goods. I also want to pay tribute to those who are not within the broad remit of the Department and have also provided food; many people in the community, from farmers to those who work in delivery and transport, food production, factories and, indeed, food retail. From the farmer to the truck driver, we are for ever thankful for their work in these hard times. Communities are indebted to those people.”
“In the Department for Communities, I am thinking in particular about the many dedicated workers, as has been outlined, in jobs and benefits offices across Northern Ireland. They face their biggest challenge to date in dealing with the many worried and anxious workers who fear for their families' safety in these grave times of economic hardship. <BR /> <BR />There is a need for urgent support and guidance now and, equally, when this period of destruction is over — and it will end. The community will need the Department more than ever before. Recently, I read with some alarm that a local economist had estimated that a potential 132,000 jobs could be lost as a result of COVID-19 in Northern Ireland.”
“I welcome the Minister's opening remarks. By and large, I concur completely with Committee members' remarks. Indeed, the Chair has outlined some of our broad concerns. We are all acutely aware of the dangers of the virus and, indeed, the extreme nature of its transmission. In these times, I want to salute the emergency services, who continue to play a vital role in reducing the risk to citizens across the country. <BR /> <BR />I also want to put on record my thanks and appreciation to the many staff in the Department for Communities who play such a crucial role at this time. I extend that to the many other key workers, particularly the council workers who continue to carry out essential services.”
“Getting back to my litmus test, I feel that a lot of the restrictions have been cruel but necessary. That is without doubt. I welcome them. I voted for this legislation and the restrictions, but I now look in further depth at specific regulations that have been counterproductive. I have highlighted three of them. I appreciate the junior Ministers' time and ask them to reflect on those points.”
“It deserves further discussion. We have an increase in fly-tipping and an increase in waste lying in our streets and in our backyards. For those who have no access to refuse disposal, we are creating another public health emergency. There is an increase in vermin and in the potential risk to individuals and young people. That is something that the Assembly and Executive really need to bear witness to. It is important to have a unanimity of message across the board. We see now that some councils are adopting a different approach. I go back to the principle that, if council staff or, indeed, any other staff can apply social distancing measures, they should do so. <BR /> <BR />Those are simple elements of the regulations that I wanted to highlight.”
“I realise that it is the responsibility and remit of the council, but the point stands: while the gates are closed on Lurgan Park, we force people to move in restricted places on our pathways and streets, while closing the open space that could provide them with an opportunity for daily exercise at social distance. My friend Ms Cameron raised a point about autism. I pay tribute to her, because I know that it is issue on which she has lobbied heavily. She has been a champion in the House for those with autism. For children with autism and their parents, having access to urban parks is essential to the mental health not only of the child but of the parent. That point should be taken on board. <BR /> <BR />Lastly, I want to talk about waste management, because it is an issue that, reflecting on the regulations in place, we need to explore.”
“The junior Minister clarified a point about travel for immediate exercise, and I welcome that clarity. That is important and needed at this time. I want to focus on parks that are in an urban setting. It goes back to my point about being cruel, unnecessary and, in some ways, counterproductive. Those who live in the countryside have access to some beautiful rural roads in fine weather and can walk the roads with less traffic in a quiet, peaceful manner and socially distance, but, for those who live in urban settings, it is quite different. What we now have is people taking to the high street to walk up narrow streets, much closer to one another than if they were able to access the green, open space in their town centres; in this instance, I think of Lurgan Park, for example.”
“I concur with what the Member said about graveyards. I have no doubt that, if Members reflect on the point, there should be unanimity in the House about how we deal with the matter. Let us face it: I take your point about scientific evidence, but, if we have a situation where, for example, off-licences can be open and people can queue in a socially restrictive manner to access that service, common sense alone would tell you that the same rules should apply to a cemetery. That is logic. Nobody should be against the principle, if it is done in the correct manner. Let us face it: those who attend cemeteries do so with the right frame of mind — personal, quiet reflection. I ask the Assembly and the junior Ministers to please take that point on board. <BR /> <BR />The next point that I will raise is about parks.”
“That is getting to the point. While we put regulations and restrictions in place to save life — I recognise that in its entirety — we run the grave risk of taking life through the restrictions that we have put in place, if we do not act sensibly.”
“I am sorry, but I do not see how that regulation is necessary. If we can place and society can place social restriction measures on shops, as has been alluded to, or on walking space, surely to goodness we can place adequate restrictions in a graveyard. Let us remember that people go to visit loved ones at gravesides not for mass gatherings but for quiet times of personal reflection. Yesterday, I had an email on that very issue. It was from a gentleman who, quite briefly, got to the point:”
“Yes, I will in just in a moment. <BR /> <BR />I want to bring to Members' attention the recent media reports that talked about an elderly gentleman from County Antrim who wanted the opportunity to go and place flowers on his loved one's grave. She had passed away a year ago, and it was coming up to the anniversary. The gate was locked, so he attempted to climb the fence, impaling himself on the railing as he attempted to place flowers on his loved one's grave.”
“For many, the most basic form of grieving is to visit the grave, whether that be to place flowers or for quiet times of reflection. For many, it is a private, dignified act of remembrance. I feel that the regulations that are in place are cruel and unnecessary in that regard.”
“While I agree, for a large part, with the sentiment of that, some particular references and restrictions are both cruel and unnecessary, and perhaps, in part, counterproductive. <BR /> <BR />I talk in broad terms, but I want to cover the scope of mental health and the cause of those who are suffering at this time, which is something that the Assembly has really taken to its heart since its reconstitution and re-establishment. The omission of mental health conditions in the definition of a vulnerable person in the regulations, at 1.(2), is something that gives me great concern. Mr Nesbitt has rightly outlined one of the key restrictions that has had a devastating impact on mental health — and it is something that needs urgent review — namely that of access to graveyards, and particularly urban cemeteries.”
“It is important that this Assembly has the opportunity to debate them, given the quick pace at which they came through the House. There has been limited scope and time for Members to have their say on how this pandemic has unfolded throughout our community, and indeed how these regulations have affected our community. That being said, given the time that we have had, there has been much reflection on what has been successful — the Junior Minister made reference to that — and other areas that perhaps need further work. <BR /> <BR />I want to focus particularly on three key elements. I listened to the Chair of the Committee for the Executive Office, Mr McGrath, who said that the regulations that are in place are cruel but necessary.”
“Like others, it is only appropriate that I begin my paying respects to those who have lost loved ones at this time, both through the tragedy of contracting COVID-19, but also those that have lost loved ones as a result of natural causes at this time. They are being denied the right of the basic grieving process. It is only right that this House recognises that and thinks of them in our deliberations here today. <BR /> <BR />I also want to put on record my thanks to the medical professionals for the way in which they have dealt with this public health crisis. They are, indeed, a credit to us all. They are a credit to our health service and, as time goes on, we will learn to value that service and those people in a way that is befitting of what we have been through. <BR /> <BR />I welcome the opportunity today to review these regulations.”
“I also want to press upon the Minister to press further for the self-employed. They welcome the new funding package that they can access, but the delay in getting that to them could effectively mean that a lot of self-employed people cannot even put bread on the table. I know that the Minister will take up that point at the Executive table. <BR /> <BR />A particular point that I would like the Minister to address relates to the creative way in which PPE has been secured by the Department, which was mentioned by Mr O'Toole. Does the Minister have any indication of how quickly that PPE will essentially get out on the ground to organisations outside the health service that are much in need of it?”