Deborah Erskine
Fermanagh and South Tyrone · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“Minister, you did not mention the removal of the zero-detriment policy, which is a concern that I have. That is worrying for anybody who sits in the Chamber, and for the construction industry in particular.”
“I thank the Minister for his comments about the Western Trust's chair. I, too, pass on my sympathies to his family. <BR /> <BR />Minister, we had the pause to the emergency general surgery consultation process last July. You asked the trust to provide a vision plan.”
“Quality assurance is really important when looking at roads. A number of us in the Chamber could take you to potholes that we have raised with the Department that have been fixed but have then reopened within a matter of days, meaning that we have had to go back into the portal to raise it with DFI staff again.”
“I thank the Minister for her statement and hope that she enjoyed her visit to Enniskillen. The statement mentions moorings. I want to focus on the Fermanagh end of the Ulster canal. I have received communication about accessible jetties and ensuring that jetties and moorings are up to standard.”
“<BR /> <BR />That was laid bare last Wednesday when representatives from the ICRIR said that they had written to the Irish Government 11 or 12 times without receiving any form of reply from them. That is shameful.”
“<BR /> <BR />It is interesting that, for years, Sinn Féin has called on the UK Government to provide information, yet its silence on the Irish Government is deafening. There are people who sit in the Chamber who know exactly the truth about what happened, yet they are prepared to lie about their involvement in the IRA.”
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“Freedom of speech. <BR /> <BR />By the same token, the Bill does not mitigate for those who wish to peacefully protest or, indeed, speak to a loved one before they enter a premises to use an abortion service because they want them to rethink their decision. That is because influence is an offence in the Bill. The term "influence" is open to interpretation, and its inclusion in the Bill is dangerous and will have ramifications for a number of groups and people. <BR /> <BR />The Bill will displace the problem and move it elsewhere. The issues can be rectified by looking at harassment laws and strengthening them rather than through a rushed-through piece of legislation. Therefore, I strongly encourage Members to consider carefully legislation that may need to be revisited in future mandates.”
“I would like to move on. <BR /> <BR />Overall, I am not convinced that the Bill deals with the matter at hand. It is not about abortion, as some Members have pointed out. It is about some of the malicious practices that sometimes, unfortunately, operate in those areas.”
“Again, I point out that freedom of speech is very important. The right to protest is very important. All of us in the Chamber should uphold the right to protest and the right to freedom of speech.”
“I will ask the Member this: do we not have freedom of speech in this country? Do we not have the right to protest?”
“Perhaps she could deal with that specific question. <BR /> <BR />I thank the Member for North Antrim for tabling amendment No 6. That provision would ensure that competing freedoms are balanced in the implementation of the Bill whilst taking a proactive approach to reducing legal liability for the Department and potential cost to the public purse.”
“What would businesses have to say about the fact that they may be within a safe access zone? Would they be aware of that? Does influence come into it? Would it turn customers away from an area, as protesters may be displaced? <BR /> <BR />Amendment Nos 7 and 9 will now not be moved, as Ms Bradshaw indicated, but I want to give my views on them. Does signage further add to the lack of desire for someone to go into a zone, thereby affecting surrounding businesses? Whilst I understand the intention and motivation behind the amendments, as they remove the defence of lack of knowledge about where a zone is situated, they may also draw attention to anyone who is entering that zone. Therefore, they have a counterproductive effect. Has the sponsor consulted the PSNI in order to gauge the extent to which signage would make enforcement easier?”
“It raises expectations for staff in such facilities, the service users and the visitors who have legitimate concerns over their treatment outside the doors of premises. Persisting with unbalanced and unworkable legislation is a failure of us as lawmakers. <BR /> <BR />My colleague Pam Cameron set out the stall on each of the clauses. However, I will again draw your attention to some of the points, particularly to amendment Nos 4 and 12. Amendment No 4 is significant and points to a U-turn by the Bill sponsor. At the beginning, Ms Bailey was against the idea of including any prescribed distance on a safe access zone. Now we see distances included, and there is no provision for the Department to consider whether a distance is appropriate to the circumstances. <BR /> <BR />Let us take, for instance, Belfast city centre.”
“The Member is absolutely correct. The problems that exist in policing have been raised numerous times in the House over the last number of weeks. They will be concentrated mostly in Belfast as well, so I thank the Member for his intervention. <BR /> <BR />It is likely that the provisions, if ratified, would be subject to legal challenge, with implications for the taxpayer. I know that I have been an MLA for only a short time, but I am not naive, and I believe that private Members' Bills should not be a tool to gain votes at the ballot box or for simply a line in election literature. Legislation must be for the purpose that it is intended for. It must do exactly what it says on the tin. I do not believe that the Bill delivers that.”
“When you look at that issue and at the fact that policing cuts and cuts to policing numbers may be on the cards, given the budget to the Justice Department, we must ask this question: how will the legislation be enforced without proper resources on the ground? I said in Health Committee meetings that surely the Justice Minister must have some role to play in the legislation.”
“The police said that it would be difficult to enforce the legislation as doing so would require a continuous police presence.”
“Articles 9, 10 and 11 of the European Convention on Human Rights establish the freedoms that underpin the right to protest. <BR /> <BR />I point out that it is incorrect to suggest that wrongdoing is mainstream in the pro-life community or, indeed, in protest activity by pro-life advocates. I categorically condemn the actions of a small minority of individuals in the vicinity of these settings. Such actions are malicious and may reasonably be regarded as criminal in nature. As a result of threats made to staff, two members of staff who gave evidence to the Committee could not be identified. My thoughts are with those working in healthcare premises who are fearful and intimidated when simply going to do their job. <BR /> <BR />My concerns about the implementation of the Bill and its enforcement have not been addressed.”
“I thank the Member for her intervention, but a lot has changed since 2016. I would like to see an updated consultation and updated information so that now, in 2022, we could properly look at the Bill in the round. <BR /> <BR />We have heard important evidence that cannot be diminished. It was particularly distressing to hear some of the stories told to the Health Committee. In particular, I recall evidence from a cancer patient who was attending a clinic not for an abortion but, due to the nature of their cancer, for advice and had abuse hurled at them. I question the care and compassion shown in such cases. However, not all cases of protest create distressing situations such as that, and we have to strike a balance with freedom of speech, which is enshrined in law.”
“It was designed to wreck my character and misrepresent my deeply held views. I hope that those listening to my speech today will realise the consequences of spreading inaccurate information. <BR /> <BR />I move to the Bill in question. There has been inadequate time to consider the Bill properly. My DUP colleague Pam Cameron MLA and I made that view clear in the Committee. The fact that the Bill sponsor attended a Committee meeting yesterday to discuss her amendments and we are debating the Bill in the Chamber today speaks to that. We have not, for example, properly considered the consequences that implementing a safe access zone might have on surrounding businesses; nor, indeed, have we looked at best practice elsewhere.”
“I have thought a lot about the Bill and, indeed, its consequences. I welcome the opportunity to outline my views. The Bill will be of interest to many in the public domain. From the outset, I make it clear, that, in common with my colleague Pam Cameron MLA, with the exception of amendment No 6, in the name of the Member for North Antrim, I will not support any of the amendments. Like the Member for North Antrim, I oppose the Bill, and I will outline my reasons. <BR /> <BR />My voting on the issue has been consistent and clear. Unfortunately, throughout the course of the Bill, as it passed Committee Stage and at different stages in the House, some in the public domain have spread false and inaccurate information about my voting record. That has been deeply upsetting.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. The Member will know that Pam Cameron and I asked in the Health Committee that the evidence be reopened. Some members were allowed to give their views on the Severe Fetal Impairment Abortion (Amendment) Bill. Will the Chair clarify how many people were able to give their views during that Bill's Committee Stage?”
“Can the Minister detail when he hopes to make any announcement on further MDT allocation and whether my area, which is of greatest need, will see that money?”
“I thank the Minister for his answer and for following up on the meeting. The multidisciplinary teams (MDT) allocation is one thing that GPs in my area have said will significantly help them in their surgeries. Unfortunately, I have not seen MDT funding reach past the Ballygawley roundabout. I want to ensure that we see that funding coming down to Fermanagh and South Tyrone.”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. I am sure that he is aware of how important such strategies are for the health and well-being of those who suffer from lung conditions, for example. Given the apparent success of the catchment-sensitive farming scheme that has been employed in England, will the Minister update the House on how that scheme works? Will he also commit to delivering a number of specific pilots in the near future?”
“I thank the Minister. I know full well how beneficial Project Stratum has been to my rural constituency, even if other Members in the House are not so sure. Will the Minister detail how long people in rural constituencies such as Fermanagh and South Tyrone would have had to wait to get proper broadband were it not for Project Stratum?”
“I thank the Minister and his Department for the work that was carried out on the scheme, which was a huge scheme for Northern Ireland. Looking at the figures for the area that I represent, I think that £7·5 million is a huge amount of money for local businesses. <BR /> <BR />Can the Minister detail how the success of the high street scheme here compares with elsewhere? I think that it was also rolled out in Jersey.”
“The cuts of 2% in the Minister's Budget would create difficult decisions for Departments, which they have indicated in the media and at Committees. That cut across all the Departments will impact on education, roads, public transport, policing and investment in our businesses. Does he think that that is fair and that it provides the best services for all our constituents?”
“Will the Minister detail how vital the project has been, particularly for people and businesses in rural parts of Northern Ireland?”
“Project Stratum demonstrates what the DUP can deliver for people in every community and from every background across Northern Ireland when given the power to do so. I know the importance of better broadband in my constituency of Fermanagh and South Tyrone, while others try to diminish the importance of investment in rural areas.”
“However, amendment No 4, which adds a statutory duty for the autism strategy to outline how the Department will reduce waiting lists, and amendment No 7, which strengthens the independence of the autism reviewer, are particularly important. <BR /> <BR />The Bill is about strengthening and improving service provision to make a real difference in people's lives. I am pleased to support the Autism (Amendment) Bill and the amendments tabled by the Health Committee.”
“The Committee report highlighted the need for the Department of Health and the Department of Education to consider mandatory training for front-line staff, including teachers. It is incredibly important that we provide individuals with the tools that they need to carry out their role. <BR /> <BR />The Bill is designed to tackle the stark picture that we have of current ASD services, which have been severely impacted by COVID. The creation of an autism reviewer will be an invaluable scrutiny mechanism not only to hold Departments to account but to be a driver of research, to ensure best practice and to engage with advocacy organisations and bodies. <BR /> <BR />I am pleased to support the seven amendments outlined by the Chair of the Health Committee. All the amendments strengthen the Bill.”
“In my home constituency of Fermanagh and South Tyrone, we are particularly concerned about the postcode lottery for some services, and the stipulation in the Bill that services will need to be accessible regionally and equally across the trusts is welcome. We need to ensure the same consistency in schools, and I am pleased that amendment No 6 highlights that. <BR /> <BR />It is also important to note that another element of the Bill is the provision of training to staff in Northern Ireland Departments and bodies. The idea of that training is that it has two tiers to fit the needs of the individual from basic understanding and awareness to understanding intensive interventions, depending on the staff member's needs.”
“Clinicians working in our trusts also said that current services for the assessment and diagnosis of children are inadequate to meet the current need. Unfortunately, that is not new information for us. Reports such as those by the Northern Ireland Commissioner for Children and Young People (NICCY) highlight serious concerns about timely access to appropriate specialist care for children. The result is detrimental impacts not only for those in need of services but for our incredibly driven, passionate and compassionate NHS staff, who are becoming overwhelmed due to burnout and the extent of the task. We need to adequately fund and streamline services to ensure that supports are accessible in a timely manner.”
“The evidence highlighted circumstances that we, as MLAs, were already becoming aware of, in that individuals on the autism spectrum and the families and carers of autistic individuals were facing incredibly long and harmful waiting lists for the right help and supports. Again, I thank some of our clinicians in our trusts who gave evidence to the Committee to help us to understand the current picture and the need in ASD services. <BR /> <BR />Our clinicians highlighted the fact that adult ASD services were significantly and severely challenged and in need of significant investment in services and measurable targets with which to judge their efficacy. That concern was echoed by the National Autistic Society.”
“I thank my friend and colleague Pam Cameron for her efforts in bringing her private Member's Bill forward. The fact that the Autism (Amendment) Bill aims to amend a previous private Member's Bill, by Mr Dominic Bradley and the all-party group on autism, is testament to the passionate work of the all-party group on autism, Autism NI and the secretariat. I commend them for their work. <BR /> <BR />As a member of the Health Committee, I was very pleased to be part of the process of scrutinising this legislation. The Committee received evidence from different individuals and organisations, along with evidence from researchers and clinicians who work in our trusts. I echo Colm in thanking everyone who gave evidence to the Committee for their invaluable insight and contribution to the process.”
“Will the Minister agree that the Budget that he put out for consultation was actually a bad Budget? Others apart from the DUP have raised concerns about it. It fails to deliver on New Decade, New Approach targets such as those on policing, and it cuts huge chunks out of Education and Infrastructure. If it is a bad Budget, it will not deliver on the ground for my constituents, so would it have been approved by Ministers? It does not matter whether it is a one-year or a three-year Budget: people want delivery on the ground from a Budget that provides better roads, transforms our health service and gives proper funding for our children in schools.”
“<BR /> <BR />I welcome the important check and balance in amendment No 18, which will enhance confidence around the process, as direct advocacy services are to be independent of trusts. Given the nature of the Bill, it is welcome that amendment Nos 19 and 20 bring the definition of harm in the Bill into line with that in domestic abuse legislation, as has already been detailed. <BR /> <BR />I support the amendments in group 3. I take this opportunity to thank the Health Committee staff, the Bill Clerk, the Minister and all those people who provided the evidence that helped to formulate this important Bill.”
“<BR /> <BR />There also seems to be a lack of awareness of developmental trauma and the specific needs of a child or young person who has gone through the experience of being fostered or adopted. It is vital to promote and support educational achievement and prevent any disruption to education or training. No child or young person should be left behind, especially if their start in life has been different to that of their peers. Amendment Nos 14 and 15 would extend the trusts' duty to promote the educational achievement of a looked-after child to facilitating and supporting such support. That would be welcome. It would strengthen clause 122. It speaks to some of the concerns that were raised to us via informal and formal sessions of the Health Committee.”
“I will keep my comments very brief, as an awful lot has been said in the Chamber already, and my colleague Pam Cameron dealt with each of the amendments. <BR /> <BR />On amendment Nos 14 and 15, it was clear from the evidence from foster and adoptive parents that they wanted to ensure better educational outcomes for their children. What spoke volumes to me in some of the Health Committee's evidence sessions was that adoptive and foster families felt that they were very much alone at times in fighting for the best educational outcomes for their children and young people. Unfortunately, at times, it became a postcode lottery, depending on your trust or social worker. That should not be the case.”
“That is a welcome proposal that will ensure robust scrutiny, although it would have been useful to understand the reason for the different reporting periods for the Bill — five years — and the Children (Northern Ireland) Order 1995 — three years — to ensure a level playing field, so to speak, for the children they impact on. <BR /> <BR />My colleague Pam Cameron dealt with the amendments in the group in her contribution, which is why I am keeping my comments brief. Suffice to say, I support the amendments.”
“<BR /> <BR />There are certain amendments in the first group that I would like to deal with in particular. It is important to stress that many of the provisions in the Bill relate to enabling powers and future scrutiny of the regulations that are drafted. On that basis, they will be critical to monitoring the impact of the legislation. <BR /> <BR />In considering amendment Nos 1 to 42, amendment Nos 48 to 50, amendment Nos 52 to 57 and amendment No 60, the need to ensure that any future reconfiguration of how services are commissioned maintains the high levels of accountability and input in relation to adoption services must be stressed. <BR /> <BR />Amendment No 45 directs that the Department must report on the implementation of provisions of the Act within three years and once every five years afterwards.”
“The challenge and the need for the legislation is clear, as over recent years there has been a decline in the number of adopters. As the Chair outlined, the range of information that was given in evidence to the Health Committee by adopters and foster carers, as well as organisations and agencies, has detailed at times why that may be the case. It is important that we change the narrative around adoption and fostering. It is sometimes seen as a very difficult path, yet it is so enriching, as, by becoming an adoptive or fostering family, you are giving our children and young people opportunity and hope. The overriding aim of the Bill is to place the child's interests at the heart of every stage of the adoption process. Of course, that is something that all parties can and should unite around.”
“Everybody has said it so far today, but it cannot be overestimated how overdue this piece of legislation is, and I welcome its progress to date.”
“I, too, wish the Minister well as he has to endure COVID. I wish the Swann household well in its isolation.”
“From the discussions that I have had with him, I know that the Minister cares about Northern Ireland and will carefully review all the facts presented to him through any independent reviews, public consultations and environmental and economic studies. Politicking on the issue is not an option; it is too great a concern for my constituency of Fermanagh and South Tyrone.”
“They empower us by giving us the evidence to do what we should be doing in this place: proper scrutiny of legislation. As an aside on that point, it concerns me when I hear phrases such as, "We hope to have the opportunity for proper scrutiny of legislation in Committee". We must ensure that legislation has proper, robust scrutiny. I see that scrutiny in the Health Committee, on which I sit. The Chair of the Health Committee is here. The time constraints that we are under at the minute make that scrutiny difficult, but we are legislators. Laws should not be used just for election literature, because they have real impact on the ground. <BR /> <BR />I return to the Bill and to fracking.”
“How would fracking tie in to any of that? Does it sound like support for fracking? <BR /> <BR />It is important that we listen to the strength of public opinion on fracking and act accordingly. There has been a step change in public opposition to it, and I am glad that the Minister has been listening to that. I want to set the record straight: from what I can see and hear, no party in the Chamber is actively advocating petroleum licensing. Indeed, no fracking is happening in Fermanagh. It is very important that we send out that message from the Chamber tonight. To land the blame at my party's door is slightly mischievous in the run-up to an election. <BR /> <BR />We need to have environmental and independent reviews to provide evidence. The importance of consultation and wide-ranging DFE reports must not be diminished either.”
“The energy strategy taken forward by our Economy Minister sets out a range of ambitious targets and policies to support the transition to safe, affordable and clean energy solutions and to reduce our dependency on fossil fuels. It is safe to say that the practice of fracking does not lend itself to the vision set out in the Minister's energy strategy. <BR /> <BR />I am pleased that my party is committed to phasing out fossil fuels. As representatives, we have a responsibility to ensure the protection of the environment and to seek to promote renewable energy sources. The status quo of importing and consuming fossil fuels at current levels is unsustainable. To see that commitment, all you have to do is to look at the Minister's energy strategy, 'The Path to Net Zero Energy', which includes the following goals:”
“I welcome the opportunity, as a Fermanagh and South Tyrone MLA, to speak on the subject this evening. The concerns about fracking centre on my beautiful constituency and are well rehearsed. The Minister will know that I am incredibly proud to come from that part of the world. From the outset, I want to make clear that I am opposed to the practice of fracking, given the environmental concerns associated with it. <BR /> <BR />At the start of the debate, the Minister raised a vital point about the Bill's scope. I hope that the Bill sponsor will deal with that in her summing up, as it may help to give further understanding of the Bill.”
“We must always do better when it comes to identifying specific needs and ensuring that adequate support is in place for our children and young people. This legislation is a step in doing that. <BR /> <BR />Today is an example of us overcoming an issue in the education system to provide the best start possible in life for our children. Therefore, I support the Minister's action in bringing forward this important and much-needed policy change.”
“<BR /> <BR />A range of research, internationally and in the UK, has consistently indicated that, on average, the attainment levels of pupils born late in the academic year is lower than that of those born at the start of the academic year. I appreciate the fact that the Department has stated that it will continue to review its position with regard to children who are born prematurely or other groups of children who are at risk of underachievement, such as children with special educational needs. <BR /> <BR />I welcome that the Department is aware of the additional support and intervention in the education system that premature children frequently require. I also welcome that the Department recognises the need to increase awareness, understanding and support across the education system for those children.”
“I do not need to go into the problems that we already have in our mental health services, and the sad reality is that children are presenting to trusts at younger ages with mental health issues. <BR /> <BR />Early years are so important in the development of children's lives, and bringing ourselves in line with other jurisdictions where there is good practice is vital. We must always strive to give our children the best start possible in life. <BR /> <BR />There is public support for the legislation. Many parents have expressed their delight to me at the announcement of the legislation. Following the public consultation, it is clear from evidence from campaigners such as TinyLife that the legislation is long overdue, so I commend the Minister for prioritising it.”
“A hat-trick of DUP MLAs. <BR /> <BR />I commend the Minister, and Mr Weir before her, for bringing the deferral of school age legislation forward. Therefore, I express my support for the legislation. <BR /> <BR />As has been stated, parental choice is so important. Parents know their children best, and from the parents who have been in touch with me, I know the concerns that they have about their children heading off to school. That is compounded for some families when their children are young in the school year. Parents, rightly, have concerns for the development and educational attainment of their children. <BR /> <BR />The Bill will have a very positive impact on mental health and well-being. It will remove undue stress from children, and, indeed, their families.”
“It is not about me or anybody else in the Chamber; it is about the campaigners who have campaigned so tirelessly for the legislation. Each one of them should be proud today. I am pleased to support the legislation.”
“Of course, naturally, we do not want to think about that while our loved ones are fit and well. However, we must make our wishes known to our loved ones. I go further: you should be adamant when telling your family about those wishes and your choice in those end-of-life situations, so that your family members are under no illusion as to what your wishes are when you are no longer able to make decisions for yourself. <BR /> <BR />I am sure that the legislation will be in the media today. I hope that, tonight, people hear and see the campaigners and that, in homes across Northern Ireland, conversations about organ donation and what people's wishes are will start. I congratulate the campaigners on highlighting this important issue down through the years. Today is a day to celebrate their achievements.”
“<BR /> <BR />As the Health Committee's report states, the current rate of consent to organ donation in Northern Ireland is 64%. That figure has not increased significantly for several years, despite the consistently high levels of support for organ donation, so it is important that we do something. Soft opt-out has been implemented in other parts of the UK; in Wales in 2015, in England in 2020 and in Scotland in 2021. The experience in those parts will be invaluable to Northern Ireland as it charts its way through the process; we can learn from our counterparts. <BR /> <BR />We must remember that the right to choose is still part of it. However, the key to organ donation is having the conversations with your loved ones. Family members must play an important role. End-of-life discussions are never easy.”