Natalie Don-Innes
Scottish National Party · Scotland
“Marie McNair: I am proud of the policies that the Scottish National Party Government has introduced, which make childcare more accessible. We know that wraparound childcare is essential to ensuring that parents can find and retain employment, and that the impact of that policy is keeping children out of poverty.”
“Families in Clydebank and Milngavie, like those throughout Scotland, benefit from our investment of £1 billion annually in the provision of 1,140 hours of high- quality early learning and childcare.”
“I have welcomed the opportunity to visit a wide range of settings during my time in office, seeing our support and funding in action and witnessing the passion, dedication and skill of our childcare professionals, who seek every day to get it right for every child.”
“That work will be developed with adoptive families and delivery partners to ensure that it reflects lived experience and supports a consistent national approach.”
“Although we have invested heavily in CAMHS, there might be more to do to ensure that children and young people get the support that they need. I have acknowledged the challenges that adoptive families face, the need to strengthen support and the dedication of the practitioners who support those families.”
“I will respond to a number of points that were raised in today’s debate, but, given that this is my final speech, I will take a minute to thank the people of the constituency that I represent— Renfrewshire North and West.”
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“Our commitment to supporting children and families is evident in our continued investment of £1 billion per year to deliver 1,140 funded hours of high- quality ELC for all three and four-year-olds, eligible two-year-olds and five-year-olds who have deferred. We remain the only part of the UK to provide that offer regardless of the working status of parents. That offer is saving parents £6,000 a year, so for Meghan Gallacher to say that it is a half-hearted ambition does not do justice to the system that we have at the moment. However, I do not overlook the fact that the system does not work for everyone, and I want to get to a place where it does. Meghan Gallacher: To clarify, my point was not about the funding that the Government has put in.”
“Seven minutes is not enough time in which to deal with all the points that have been raised, but I am more than happy to follow up with members after the debate. I thank members from across parties for taking part in it and Roz McCall for bringing it to the chamber. I, too, recognise the hard work and dedication of our partners in delivering high-quality childcare across Scotland. The Government remains absolutely committed to developing an accessible and affordable childcare system that meets families’ needs and supports our mission to eradicate child poverty. We have already come a long way.”
“Safeguarding would be key. In the shorter term, I understand the importance of those issues, which is why I requested that Highlands and Islands Enterprise provide a report on rural and island childcare access. Building on that report, work is under way to arrange a rural and island childcare round table, which will bring together partners across policy, regulation and the childcare sector to focus on identifying realistic and effective action that we could take to improve childcare access to support families in those communities. Racism in Schools 5.”
“As she is aware, there has been a huge reduction in the number of childminders who are operating across my constituency in recent years, with no childminders at all left in Barra, Uist or Harris. In order to support parents back into work, can the minister say anything further about the Scottish Government’s work to increase access to childcare in rural and island settings, for example, through exploring the option of permitting childminders to operate in a non-domestic setting? Natalie Don-Innes: That specific example has been raised with me before by other members across the chamber and I feel that it should be explored further. However, amending legislation to allow the delivery of childminding services in non- domestic premises would be a lengthy process and we would need to carefully consider any consequences of doing so.”
“The Scottish Government continues to work closely with Comhairle nan Eilean Siar, the Care Inspectorate and the Scottish Childminding Association to support improved access to childcare across the Western Isles. We recognise the distinct challenges and the vital role of childminders in rural and island communities and have funded the SCMA to deliver a national three-year programme of childminder recruitment and retention. More broadly, we are supporting childcare access through national programmes, including investment in early adopter communities, and we have made commitments in the national islands plan to develop practical, place-based solutions for children and families. Alasdair Allan: I thank the minister for her on- going engagement on the issue.”
“The Deputy Presiding Officer: That concludes the debate. 13:15 Meeting suspended. 14:00 On resuming— Portfolio Question Time Social Justice and Housing”
“To take a slightly personal slant, my two children do not have much access to teens or older children, and I can see how that intergenerational work would benefit even them. As I said to Ms Roddick earlier in the debate, I would be grateful if she could send me more information on the programme. In looking at the future of the programme, I will certainly take into consideration the points that members have raised. I will finish by congratulating everyone involved in Growing2gether, which is enabling our children and young people to develop the skills, values and resilience that are needed to build a brighter future. I am sure that Growing2gether will continue to build on the superb work that has been done so far, and I wish the programme every success in the future. Again, I thank Ms Roddick for bringing the debate to the chamber.”
“Since the benefit launched, we have paid out more than £3 billion and, of course, we have just expanded it to £40 for children under one. In relation to the Children (Care, Care Experience and Services Planning) (Scotland) Bill, making provisions to support babies is an absolute priority. There are already provisions for that in the bill, but I am hoping to extend them further at stage 2 and I will meet Ms McCall to discuss some of that very soon. As I have said, I am very interested in the programme and the points that have been made. I am a big believer in intergenerational work and I believe in it for all age groups. Generally speaking, I think that that work has been done more by pairing younger people with elderly people, so I am interested in it for this age group.”
“We want to ensure that our youngest children get the support that they need to reach those developmental milestones and that the families get the support that they need to deliver that. We are taking a number of actions through whole-family support, whole-family wellbeing and all the preventative work that I regularly talk about with Ms McCall and any other member who will listen to me. On top of that, there are a number of other actions. In December, we published our “Early Years Speech, Language and Communication Action Plan”, which sets out our preventative, strategic approach—to build on existing strengths, address gaps in support, and place families and communities at the heart of that work. We are also delivering the game-changing Scottish child payment, which is forecast to support the families of around 330,000 children next year.”
“We are continuing to invest more than £1 billion every year in 1,140 hours of high-quality funded early learning and childcare for all three and four-year-olds and eligible two-year-olds. In last week’s budget, we announced a universal breakfast club offer for primary school children in Scotland, to be delivered by August 2027. We also announced new investment to expand after-school and holiday clubs for primary school children, which will support parents with wraparound care options and provide an important range of activities for children. I absolutely agree with Ms McCall’s points. Sometimes we talk about extremely emotive subjects in this Parliament, and this is one of them.”
“We talk a lot in the chamber about attainment and ensuring that children are able to attend their school, and I have spoken a lot about the virtual school network, but I am interested in understanding more about approaches that can help over and above that. We are pleased to have provided more than £800,000 to support the nursery programme through our place-based, community-led regeneration funding over a number of years. There has been some talk about disadvantaged young people and, before I touch on a couple of other points in the debate, it is important to highlight some of the steps that we are taking to provide wider support to children and young people.”
“This strengths-based preventative approach aligns closely with our focus on promoting positive relationships, supporting emotional regulation and addressing the underlying causes of disengagement, rather than responding only when behaviour reaches crisis points. It shows how relational, community-based programmes can complement the work of schools, contribute to calmer, more inclusive learning environments and support our young people to be successful learners, confident individuals, responsible citizens and effective contributors. I am really interested in that point, because—as either someone said, or I read—the programme has been very helpful for young people who were quite disengaged with school, by bringing them back in. That is really important.”
“Those who have been supported through the programme have said that it has led to a surge in their confidence, mental health and respect for others, helping them to find skills and qualities that they did not know that they had. It is heartening to hear that feedback, which shows the growth in self-esteem and resilience that the programme is enabling for our young people. Programmes such as Growing2gether demonstrate the powerful role that positive, supportive relationships play in shaping children and young people’s behaviour, wellbeing and engagement with learning. By giving young people the opportunity to take on responsibility, build empathy and form nurturing relationships with younger children, that work helps to deliver the social and emotional skills that underpin positive behaviour in school and beyond.”
“I thank Ms Roddick for bringing the debate to the chamber and for highlighting the excellent work that is being done in the Growing2gether nursery programme. A lot of what she said resonates with me. I am glad that the programme is helping to eliminate the feeling of not having a place or a purpose, because every child in this country deserves to feel special. I thank members for their heartfelt contributions in today’s debate. It has been terrific to hear about the unique approach that the programme takes and the clear benefits to young people, as the providers of support rather than the recipients. I convey a heartfelt thanks to everyone involved. Members have already touched on some of the ways in which Growing2gether has helped to support young people.”
“I thank everyone who provided evidence to the committee at stage 1, everyone who has engaged with the bill team and Government officials since the bill was introduced last summer and the many people I have met in our communities who are doing important work to support children and young people who are in care or have left care. Most important, I thank children and young people for continuing to share their stories, concerns, challenges, ideas and dreams in the hope that we will take all that experience and make change happen for them and especially for children who might need care and support in the future.”
“However, we know that there is more for us to do as a Government if we are to keep the Promise by 2030, as we committed to doing, and the Children (Care, Care Experience and Services Planning) (Scotland) Bill will take us further faster. It provides the scaffolding that is needed to build solid systems of support to wrap around whole families and move our services and interventions more towards prevention. However, I acknowledge that some stakeholders and members of the Scottish Parliament feel that it does not go far enough.”
“It is a personal honour for me to open this debate and introduce a bill that will, with the Parliament’s support, change lives across Scotland. We are making good progress on keeping the Promise. More than 2,500 fewer children are in care now than in 2020; the number of students who are supported in higher education by the care-experienced bursary more than doubled between 2019-20 and 2024-25; the introduction in 2023 of a minimum level of allowance for foster and kinship care families benefits more than 9,000 children every year; and no young person aged under 18 has been imprisoned since April last year.”
“The use of digital technology, of which the use of touch typing is particularly relevant, is a key aspect of the digital skills cross-curricular theme. The Deputy Presiding Officer: I see that my plea at the start of proceedings has fallen on somewhat deaf ears in parts of the chamber. I will try to get the supplementaries in, but the questions will need to be brief, as will the responses, and that will be the same going forward.”
“As I said, those resources are already available for local schools, and it is for them to decide, based on what is best for their area. I will add to my previous response. Work to improve the technologies curriculum, as part of the curriculum improvement cycle, is now under way. That will provide an opportunity for us to consider further the knowledge, understanding, skills and practical activities that children and young people need to develop to ensure that they can grasp career opportunities in the 21st century. As part of the curriculum improvement cycle, cross-curricular themes, such as digital skills and entrepreneurship, will be clarified, strengthened and embedded in the curriculum.”
“Does the minister accept touch typing is a skill that aids productivity, speed and accuracy of communication, and that it is more relevant now than ever, as just about every type of employment requires people to communicate effectively? Learning to touch type is compulsory in other countries, such as the USA, Australia and Canada. Is it the biggest failure of a Parliament not to provide children with opportunities? If we do not make it compulsory, children will be denied an opportunity that could enhance their life for ever. Natalie Don-Innes: I absolutely agree with some of the points that Mr Ewing raised, and he made an extremely important point when he highlighted the importance of being digitally literate and having the skills that are required to grasp career opportunities in the 21st century.”
“Typing qualifications and free-to-access programmes that are aimed at developing touch-typing skills are already available for pupils, and it is for individual schools to decide what to offer, reflecting their local priorities. The curriculum improvement cycle will ensure that Scotland’s curriculum remains forward looking, reflects the needs of today’s children and young people and supports high-quality teaching and learning. The review of the technologies curriculum, which includes computing science and consideration of digital skills as a cross-curricular theme, is under way, and a draft evolved curriculum technical framework is due for publication in summer 2026. Fergus Ewing: That rather long answer seems to be a synonym for the word “no”.”
“It is still relatively early days, but we have invested the funding and are committed to our childminding workforce.”
“Does the Scottish Government still agree with its 2023 programme for government that childminders are “essential” to the childcare ecosystem? If so, is it prepared to better the token gestures that it has so far come up with? Natalie Don-Innes: This is a really positive programme, but the decline in the childminding workforce is a long-term trend that, sadly, is mirrored across the entire United Kingdom. The programme has been active for 18 months, and it can take six to nine months for prospective new childminders to complete their induction. However, recruitment is only part of the solution. More than 200 childminders have already participated in innovative pilots as we explore different ways of better supporting existing childminders.”
“Childminding is a welcome, valued and important part of the childcare offer for children and families in Scotland. I am keen to enable more people to become and to remain childminders. We are providing £1.6 million of funding to the Scottish Childminding Association this year to help to improve the recruitment and retention of childminders. The association’s current programme is expected to run until 2027 and has expanded across Scotland, with 30 local authorities now involved, including South Lanarkshire Council. Davy Russell: The £1 million funding that was announced last year was designed to improve the recruitment and retention of childminders and to increase the childminding workforce by 1,000. However, the most recent statistics show that the number of childminders fell from 3,225 in 2023 to 3,040 by the end of last year.”
“That approach will enable key partners, including the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, the Association of Directors of Education in Scotland and teacher trade unions, to engage more fully with the requirements of the bill and will help us to work collaboratively and collectively to deliver on the statutory duties. I again thank all those organisations for their engagement during the bill process and for helping to inform our thinking on how best to respond to the bill’s requirements.”
“Ahead of stage 2, I discussed the question of equity with Liz Smith at some length. In particular, we reflected on the capacity of the outdoor education sector to deliver for children and young people with complex and multiple support needs. I thank the outdoor education sector for the input and insight that it provided on the matter and on other matters during the bill process. In particular, I welcomed the engagement of the Association of Heads of Outdoor Education Centres, the Outward Bound Trust and PGL Beyond. Those discussions and others have demonstrated that realising the intent and ambition of the bill will take time. However, that implementation process will be easier to achieve as a result of Parliament agreeing to allow for a longer lead-in time to commencement.”
“The Education, Children and Young People Committee heard a range of evidence on the positive impact that residential outdoor education can have, from helping to strengthen pupil-teacher relationships to building a young person’s confidence and improving wellbeing. Many schools already provide that experience as part of supporting pupils’ transition from primary to secondary school. It is for those reasons that the Scottish Government provided additional financial support to the sector during the Covid pandemic, so that it might survive the impact of that. Research also suggests that the residential experience can provide added benefits for young people in more socioeconomically deprived circumstances. In that context, it is not surprising that the issue of equity has been a key one that has been explored during the bill process.”
“The removal of the duty to fund will allow us to look at alternative sources of funding, which I have discussed with the committee and the member in charge. Although finalised costs are not available at the moment, I believe that the steps taken at stages 2 and 3 will allow us a better period of time to gather data prior to the bill’s commencement. We must ensure that wider forms of outdoor learning are not crowded out due to prioritising a focus on residential outdoor education. However, ultimately, we concluded that all such issues could be overcome or addressed in the legislative process and the implementation phase, as I have just outlined to Mr Mason.”
“Deciding on whether to support the bill was not easy for the Government. In addition to the small matter of putting part of the curriculum on a statutory footing, there were and remain significant challenges to overcome in delivery, particularly in relation to cost and workforce considerations. John Mason: I want to ask the minister the same question that I asked Liz Smith. The minister talked about cost. Does she have any idea what the Government might have to pay for this? Natalie Don-Innes: Throughout the bill process, I have been clear about the need to gather data to enable us to have a true understanding of the full costs associated with it. Amendments that have been made at stages 2 and 3 will allow us to do that.”
“Many people will have been privileged, in their youth, to have enjoyed time away from home at a residential outdoor education facility, often in spectacular parts of the Scottish countryside. For the children and young people who continue to benefit from such experiences, most have very positive memories. The point of the Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill is to ensure that more children and young people in Scotland get to benefit from residential outdoor education well into the future. The fact that we are debating the merits of the bill as amended is down to Liz Smith, who introduced the bill and has stewarded it through the Parliament. That requires significant work, and I thank Liz Smith and her team for the productive and constructive engagement that we have had.”
“It makes no change to the intention of the provision. I therefore recommend that members also support amendment 1.”
“Liz Smith’s amendment 6 also helps to give effect to another of this Government’s core policies, this time on fair work, by ensuring that all workers have an effective voice and a say on matters that affect them. I emphasise again my appreciation for the commitment of the education workforce, including teachers, pupil support assistants and other professionals who give freely of their time to provide Scotland’s children and young people with valuable residential outdoor education experiences. It is important that they can give their views on the implementation of the bill. Amendment 6 therefore seeks to build on what was agreed at stage 2, as Liz Smith alluded to. I therefore encourage the chamber to support amendment 6. The final amendment in the group, amendment 1, seeks to correct a technical error in the original drafting of the bill.”
“That is especially true where barriers exist that prevent some children and young people from accessing residential outdoor education through disability, support needs or poverty. If we are to change that, their views need to be accommodated, heard and listened to. The best way to know what pupils want and need from those experiences and the approach to provision that works best for them is to ask them. Amendment 7 remedies that omission, and the approach that it takes also strengthens the Scottish Government’s commitment to upholding the principles of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. I therefore hope that everyone in the chamber will support amendment 7.”
“I believe that the final set of amendments that I have lodged at stage 3 respond effectively to the concerns that some members raised at stage 2 and they have been discussed and agreed with the member in charge. Amendment 7 addresses the fact that, given that we have now agreed to provide in the bill an extensive list of key stakeholders who should be consulted, not including children and young people is a glaring omission. Should the bill pass today, Scotland’s children and young people will benefit from its provisions. It is therefore absolutely right that they should have the opportunity to give meaningful input on how the bill is implemented, so that its provisions meet their needs.”
“Last week, we announced that Professor Alexis Jay has been appointed the independent chair for the national child sexual abuse and exploitation strategic group. There will be an independent national review of the response to group-based child sexual abuse and exploitation in Scotland. Once the independent national review is complete, the group, independently chaired by Professor Jay, will consider the findings and provide advice to ministers on next steps. That goes hand in hand with the Police Scotland review that is under way. We have also been clear that there will be a statement on the matter next week. As I say, I have been very open and transparent in my answer to Mr Ross’s original question. I am happy to put on record the number of actions that this Government is taking to deal with this serious issue.”
“However, the emails that we have now seen show that the professor said that the “current position” was “unsatisfactory” because the Government would not publish her letter. Where is the justice secretary and why is she not here in the chamber? Does the minister believe—as I think most people will now—that the justice secretary’s position is untenable and that she should resign tonight or be sacked? Natalie Don-Innes: I have been very clear in relation to the points that Mr Ross has made. He started his response to my previous answer by saying that there has been no focus on the issue. I whole-heartedly disagree, and I am very happy to set out again the steps that we are going to take .”
“I believe that, when he leaves the chamber tonight, he will be asked by the media whether he fully supports his justice secretary—and he cannot, because these documents make it very clear that she misled Parliament and that she did not take the immediate opportunity to correct the record. I will go through that timeline again. The Presiding Officer: Very briefly, Mr Ross. Douglas Ross: On 26 September, Alexis Jay sent an email to the Government. On 8 October, there was a meeting of the national strategic group. On 18 November, the minutes of that meeting were published. On 19 November, there was a request for the correspondence. On 25 November, Angela Constance denied misrepresenting Professor Alexis Jay.”
“Ms Constance did not state that Professor Jay was speaking directly about the amendment. She made a general point on Professor Jay’s views on calls for inquiries and said that she also wanted to get on with the work needed to protect our children. Given the seriousness of the issue at hand, I think that that should be the focus of all of us in the Parliament going forward. Douglas Ross: It should be the focus of the Parliament, but it is not, because we have been misled. Ministers have not been truthful. They have had to be dragged to the chamber to provide the information that they have been sitting on, not for weeks but for months. This goes right to the very top, to John Swinney, and it is now a test of his leadership.”
“On the rest of Mr Ross’s question, I have been very clear about this before—I think that I made this same statement in my answer to the urgent question on 19 November. Mr Ross quoted Alexis Jay, and I want to put the facts on record once again. Ms Constance noted specifically that Professor Jay had been the chair of an independent inquiry into child sexual abuse in England and Wales and that Professor Jay had put on record in the past that, in regard to child sexual abuse and exploitation, “people should just get on with it”. Of course, it was minuted at the strategic group’s meeting in October that the quote was correct but that it was from January and not made in relation to the amendment to the Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill.”
“It was 8 October when the Government put the information into minutes. On 18 November, the minutes of the meeting were published. On 19 November, we got the Scottish Government’s first response, replying to my colleague Russell Findlay. It has been trying to hide this because it is trying to protect its cabinet secretary. Is that not right? Natalie Don-Innes: There were a number of points in there. I start by saying that it was always my intention to provide the information, therefore I repeat my apology to the chamber and the Presiding Officer for the confusion that my letter to Mr Ross has caused. I have made all the correspondence between the Scottish Government and Professor Jay available today.”
“In black and white, it is clear that the justice secretary did not tell the truth to the chamber. In black and white, it is clear that Professor Alexis Jay wanted the correction to be made. I will read out the full quote from Professor Jay’s letter. It says: “I have expressed no views on Mr Kerr’s amendment, but I am of the opinion that the Scottish Government should urgently take steps to establish reliable data about the nature and extent of child sexual exploitation by organised networks, of which so-called ‘grooming gangs’ is only one component. In the context of the national strategic group, I have had discussions with officials about how this might be achieved.” Her final line is: “I would appreciate my position being clarified”. That letter was sent to the Scottish Government—to the justice secretary—on 26 September.”
“The Government had to be shamed into publishing it today. However, it could not even do that right. It could not even give the Parliament the courtesy of providing that information to the members who had asked for it. It released it early under FOI, then came to MSPs after 5 o’clock. I do not know the reason or the explanation for that. The Presiding Officer has asked the Government to reflect. I think that we need a statement from the Government about what it was doing. Here is the issue: we know why the information had to be dragged out of the Scottish Government. John Swinney is staring right in front of him—he cannot look at me now—because I am about to say that he is going to lose his justice secretary. Angela Constance is either going to have to resign or be sacked for misleading Parliament.”
“Yes, and I apologise for not already doing so direct to Parliament and to the member, as we had committed to doing. I issued Mr Ross with the information today and provided it to the Education, Children and Young People Committee. As Mr Ross has stated, the information is also on the Scottish Government’s website. Douglas Ross: That is shocking, and I am glad that the First Minister is here, because he has serious questions to answer. Not only was it discourteous to members—I say “members” because people across the political spectrum have been asking for that correspondence for months— but, just yesterday, 24 hours ago, the minister said that she could not provide the information, that it would go through the freedom of information process and that it might be published by the end of the year.”
“We are currently evaluating the expansion to 1,140 hours, to better understand the difference that it is making for our children and families, and to consider things such as accessibility, flexibility, quality and take-up. As I have said, we expect to publish the overarching report in early 2026. The Deputy Presiding Officer: There are a number of supplementary questions.”
“How does the Government plan to monitor the benefits of the increase in relation to child development, closing the attainment gap and workforce sustainability across local authority areas, in order for that welcome change to continue to work for the children and families of Scotland? Natalie Don-Innes: There is no doubt that providing all families with 1,140 hours of fully funded early learning and childcare for three and four-year-olds since 2021—and ours is the only Government in the United Kingdom to have done so—will have benefited families financially, but we also need to understand the impact that it has had on the measures that James Dornan has outlined.”
“As a result of the priority that the Scottish Government has placed on investing in funded early learning and childcare, families across Scotland have benefited from the provision of 1,140 hours of high-quality funded ELC since 2021. Our interim evaluation, which was published in 2024, showed that uptake of the expanded hours is high, and there are promising signs that the expansion is delivering improvements in flexibility, accessibility and affordability. We expect to publish in early 2026 our overall evaluation of the expansion’s outcomes for children, parents and families over the period 2018 to 2025. James Dornan: Many of my constituents have praised the increase in hours for their children, because of the impact on the parents’ ability to work and on the finances of the household.”
“Of course, Mr MacGregor will know that, although those countries are comparable to Scotland, they are independent and have full control over all levers and resources that are needed to help to, for example, eradicate child poverty. In the meantime, I share the view that we have heard from stakeholders that full implementation of the approach in “Realising the ambition” at the early level would go a long way towards delivering the same benefits without the need for more fundamental systemic reform. I add that it is important to understand the impact of our deferrals policy. I believe that our focus should be on understanding the impact of policy changes that have been made fairly recently before considering more fundamental reform. However, I think that this is an important conversation to have and to keep open.”
“Upstart notes that countries with well-resourced play-based kindergarten approaches in early education have better child development outcomes, while children in countries where the formal school starting age is as low as five, such as Scotland and England, face growing health, attainment and wellbeing challenges. Although building such a system would take time and resources, a few years of care can clearly have long-term benefits. Therefore, how would the potential introduction of a kindergarten phase align with the Scottish Government’s current early learning and childcare policies? Natalie Don-Innes: I appreciate the points that Mr MacGregor has made. I am aware of the view that better outcomes in other countries are potentially associated with a later school starting age.”
“Play-based and child-centred approaches are key to our approach to children’s learning, particularly in the early years. That is what the curriculum for excellence already delivers, and our approach is underpinned by the internationally recognised national practice guidance for early years that is set out in “Realising the ambition: Being Me”. As I have discussed with Mr MacGregor previously, a kindergarten stage would represent a major shift in our education system. I believe that our focus at the current time should be on further embedding our play-based approaches and, equally, analysing their impact, but I welcome further discussion on that. Fulton MacGregor: I know that the minister is well aware of Upstart Scotland’s campaign to introduce a kindergarten stage. As she has said, I have raised that issue a number of times already.”
“What does the minister think that care- experienced children will think when they hear that good public money is being used on those bonuses? Natalie Don-Innes: I imagine that, in line with the comments in my previous response, the thinking would be that some of the figures are really disappointing—if they are, in fact, the correct figures. As I also said in my previous answer, there is a fine balance to strike when it comes to looking at excessive profit and, equally, understanding where profit is being reinvested. As I said, I believe that the provisions that we have put in the bill strike a balance that will allow us, in time, to ensure that there is not the excessive profit that the member has referred to.”