Natalie Don-Innes
Scottish National Party · Scotland
“Marie McNair: I am proud of the policies that the Scottish National Party Government has introduced, which make childcare more accessible. We know that wraparound childcare is essential to ensuring that parents can find and retain employment, and that the impact of that policy is keeping children out of poverty.”
“Families in Clydebank and Milngavie, like those throughout Scotland, benefit from our investment of £1 billion annually in the provision of 1,140 hours of high- quality early learning and childcare.”
“I have welcomed the opportunity to visit a wide range of settings during my time in office, seeing our support and funding in action and witnessing the passion, dedication and skill of our childcare professionals, who seek every day to get it right for every child.”
“That work will be developed with adoptive families and delivery partners to ensure that it reflects lived experience and supports a consistent national approach.”
“Although we have invested heavily in CAMHS, there might be more to do to ensure that children and young people get the support that they need. I have acknowledged the challenges that adoptive families face, the need to strengthen support and the dedication of the practitioners who support those families.”
“I will respond to a number of points that were raised in today’s debate, but, given that this is my final speech, I will take a minute to thank the people of the constituency that I represent— Renfrewshire North and West.”
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“It has been a fantastic collaboration between the Scottish Government, local government, the childcare sector and families across the country, and quality is at the heart of that expansion. I am sure that all members are encouraged that the Scottish household survey childcare report that was published just this morning shows that 91 per cent of households receiving funded ELC “were either very or fairly satisfied” with the quality of provision. When I visit ELC settings across the country, I am very proud to see the difference that the investment is making in children’s lives every single day—not to forget the difference that it makes to parents across Scotland by providing them with crucial support, reducing household costs and helping them to go out and work, train or study.”
“Natalie Don-Innes: We are expanding childcare in a number of ways and I will be happy to get on to talk about some of the different ways in which we are doing so and how we are exploring what families need in Scotland, if I can make some progress with my speech. If families paid for the offer themselves, it would cost them more than £6,000 per eligible child per year. However, that does not mean that there are no challenges. I reiterate my commitment to listen to the views of parents, those who work in the sector and, of course, members from across the chamber on how we can strengthen our national childcare offer. I am very proud of the progress that we have made over the past few years in delivering the expansion to 1,140 hours.”
“Families across Scotland have been benefiting from 1,140 funded hours of high-quality early learning and childcare for all three and four-year-olds and eligible two-year-olds since 2021. Some of the messaging that we have heard in the debate is not quite right about the priority that the Scottish Government gives to early learning and our understanding of its benefits for children’s development. We have been prioritising £1 billion of investment in that every year since 2021. Meghan Gallacher: If the Government was serious about fixing the problems with childcare and its expansion, why has it not expanded funded childcare from nine months onwards? That was a promise that the SNP made, and it is a promise that has been broken.”
“I thank members for taking part in the debate and for their contributions. I assure families around Scotland that we are listening to their concerns and reflecting on them. Early learning and childcare are central to the Government’s approach to making Scotland the best place to grow up in. As members have said, it is vital to support children’s outcomes, and we understand that. We know that the positive impact can be even greater for those families who are experiencing poverty. More than that, our childcare sector is a pivotal part of Scotland’s national economic infrastructure. It is vital to enabling parents and carers to enter or return to work, to increase their working hours or to take up learning or training. Every year, we invest £1 billion in that crucial service.”
“Amendment 312 disagreed to. Amendment 108 not moved. Amendment 313 moved—[Mark Griffin]. The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, that amendment 313 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No. The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a division. The vote is closed. Alexander Burnett has a point of order.”
“For Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Ind) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con) Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con) Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab) Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con) Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab) Eagle, Tim (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (Ind) Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con) Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con) Golden, Maurice (North East Scotland) (Con) Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con) Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con) Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab) Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con) Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green) [Proxy vote cast by Ross Greer] McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab) Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con) Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (Alba) Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Russell, Davy (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (Lab) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Reform) Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab) Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab) Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con) Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con) White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con) Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab) Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con) Against Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP) Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Don-Innes, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (LD) Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP) McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP) McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD) Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP) Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP) Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP) Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD) [Proxy vote cast by Willie Rennie] Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of the division is: For 49, Against 59, Abstentions 0.”
“Amendment 107 disagreed to. Amendment 312 moved—[Katy Clark]. 15:45 The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, that amendment 312 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No. The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a division.”
“For Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Ind) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con) Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con) Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab) Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con) Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab) Eagle, Tim (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (Ind) Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con) Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con) Golden, Maurice (North East Scotland) (Con) Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con) Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con) Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con) Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green) [Proxy vote cast by Ross Greer] McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab) Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (Alba) Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Russell, Davy (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (Lab) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Reform) Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab) Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab) Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con) Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con) White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con) Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab) Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con) Against Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP) Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Don-Innes, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (LD) Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP) McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP) McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD) Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP) Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP) [Proxy vote cast by Fulton MacGregor] Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP) Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP) Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD) [Proxy vote cast by Willie Rennie] Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of the division is: For 47, Against 61, Abstentions 0.”
“Amendment 311 disagreed to. Amendment 107 moved—[Jeremy Balfour]. The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, that amendment 107 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No. The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a division.”
“For Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Ind) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con) Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con) Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab) Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con) Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab) Eagle, Tim (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (Ind) Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con) Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con) Golden, Maurice (North East Scotland) (Con) Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con) Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con) Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab) Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con) Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green) [Proxy vote cast by Ross Greer] McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab) Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con) Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (Alba) Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Russell, Davy (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (Lab) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Reform) Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab) Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab) Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con) Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con) White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con) Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab) Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con) Against Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP) Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Don-Innes, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (LD) Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP) McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP) McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD) Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP) Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP) [Proxy vote cast by Fulton MacGregor] Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP) Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP) Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD) [Proxy vote cast by Willie Rennie] Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of the division is: For 49, Against 61, Abstentions 0.”
“Amendment 310 disagreed to. Amendment 311 moved—[Katy Clark]. The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, that amendment 311 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No. The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a division.”
“On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I would have voted no. The Deputy Presiding Officer: Thank you, Ms Don-Innes. I will ensure that that is recorded. For Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Ind) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con) Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con) Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab) Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con) Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab) Eagle, Tim (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (Ind) Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con) Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con) Golden, Maurice (North East Scotland) (Con) Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con) Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con) Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab) Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con) Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green) [Proxy vote cast by Ross Greer] McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab) Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (Alba) Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Russell, Davy (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (Lab) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Reform) Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab) Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab) Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con) Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con) White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con) Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab) Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con) Against Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP) Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Don-Innes, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (LD) Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP) McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP) McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD) Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP) Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP) [Proxy vote cast by Fulton MacGregor] Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP) Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP) Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD) [Proxy vote cast by Willie Rennie] Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of the division is: For 48, Against 61, Abstentions 0.”
“The Deputy Presiding Officer: The minister will now take questions on the issues raised in her statement. I intend to allow around 20 minutes for questions, after which we will move to the next item of business. I call Liz Smith, who joins us remotely.”
“Therefore, that will remain at the heart of the Scottish Government’s interactions with the member in charge and the Parliament more broadly as the bill progresses. Subject to the Parliament agreeing to the motion for the financial resolution tomorrow, I assure members that I and Liz Smith will swiftly engage again to agree the details of a work plan. Of course, we must make the best use of the time that will be available ahead of the formal stage 2 proceedings to make the progress and improvements that are required. The Scottish Government recognises the opportunity that the bill presents for children and young people across Scotland, but we must get it right. I look forward to working with the member in charge and members from across the Parliament to ensure that we do so. I am now happy to take questions.”
“I am assured, and I am grateful, that the member in charge is open and willing to explore compromises in her bill to help to mitigate unintended consequences and to strengthen the feasibility of implementation, should the bill become law. Importantly, we discussed the fact that, in working to strengthen the deliverability of the bill, there must continue to be a focus on ensuring equity of provision and equity of access to residential outdoor education so that all pupils have the opportunity to experience the range of benefits that such activities can provide. For example, it is widely accepted that residential outdoor education can deliver improvements in personal development, behaviour, attendance and pupil-teacher relationships.”
“I have offered to undertake certain engagements with Liz Smith on a joint basis. Support from my officials will also be made available, as appropriate, to further the policy development and analysis that will be necessary to shape a suitable way forward that best takes account of the outstanding issues. As part of our most recent conversation, Liz Smith discussed with ministers potential approaches to addressing the known challenges that the bill as introduced presents for the teacher workforce. We have also shared initial thinking on the potential role of capital investment in supporting improvements across the outdoor education estate. Those issues require more focused deliberation.”
“Amendments must also reflect the need for equity of provision and the time that will be required for the outdoor education sector to build sufficient readiness in advance of any new statutory duties coming into effect. Further close collaboration with a range of stakeholders, including outdoor education centres, teacher trade unions, the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities and the Association of Directors of Education in Scotland will be critical in informing stage 2 considerations. That is why I am pleased to confirm that Liz Smith has also agreed to develop, with the Government, a work plan that will set out activities to be undertaken, led by the member in charge, in the lead-up to the stage 2 proceedings to help to further address outstanding concerns and to develop draft amendments.”
“That we have established a shared understanding in that regard is important, as we are now beyond the point—as set out in standing orders—at which the Government would otherwise seek to take on the bill as Government legislation. Specifically, we have agreed that, as the member in charge of the bill, Liz Smith will work with the Government on stage 2 amendments to address the challenges of affordability and deliverability, which relate to the duty to fund, the targeting of those children who might benefit the most and a change in commencement. I believe that, across the Opposition parties, there is a wider recognition of the need to, and a willingness to, robustly consider amendments that seek to ensure that the bill will be more affordable.”
“Indeed, the Education, Children and Young People Committee concluded that the bill should only progress if concerns relating to the affordability and deliverability of the provisions were addressed. As I said, the Government respects the will of Parliament that was clearly demonstrated at stage 1 when it supported the bill’s moving forward. The onus is now on the Parliament to work with the member in charge of the bill—and, indeed, the Government—to address the challenges that have been raised in relation to funding. I assure members that the Government will play its part. The Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills and I have discussed with Liz Smith how she, as the member in charge, and the Government may look to continue to work constructively together as the bill progresses.”
“Although the Government accepts it as the Parliament’s will that the bill proceeds to stage 2 and is therefore lodging the necessary financial resolution, the Parliament has a responsibility to ensure that the bill, should it become law, is fit for purpose, meaning that it is affordable and, of course, deliverable. I have discussed that at length with Liz Smith, and I am grateful to her for her willingness to work through a range of options. That will include further considering the total potential costs of the bill, equity of provision and workforce implications. All those issues were recognised by the lead Education, Children and Young People Committee in its stage 1 report, and they have formed a central focus of my discussions with Liz Smith to date, as members are aware.”
“Pupils at Ulva primary school on the Isle of Mull take part in regular outdoor learning through activities such as weekly shore school, learning key skills and taking ownership of their whole learning environment. There is an important reason why I mention all that. The Scottish Government acknowledges the significant positive opportunity that Liz Smith’s bill represents, but, as it progresses to stage 2, we must ensure that the legislative approach aligns with and builds on, but does not detract from, all the good practice that is already under way to deliver outdoor learning across the system.”
“What that package of work demonstrates is that, even in the absence of legislation, the Scottish Government is working with partners across the education sector to improve provision of and access to impactful, safe and varied outdoor learning experiences, including residential outdoor education. Our schools and dedicated school staff are doing their best to ensure that pupils can benefit from such experiences. For example, Cedarbank school, an additional support needs school in West Lothian, is committed to ensuring that all pupils across broad general education receive two hours of outdoor learning a week, and all subject areas across the senior phase are encouraged to integrate regular outdoor learning as part of lesson plans.”
“The work includes the new Scottish outdoor learning strategic working group, which will provide recommendations next month on how the Government and partners can continue to strengthen support for outdoor learning. Education Scotland is supporting the Association of Heads of Outdoor Education Centres and the Scottish Advisory Panel for Outdoor Education in the development of a quality residential framework and a training resource for outdoor education centre instructors. Systemic change is being delivered through the curriculum improvement cycle, which is strengthening the place of outdoor learning across the three-to-18 curriculum, and we continue to provide pupil equity funding and the learning estate investment programme, which many schools make use of to support delivery of residential and on-site outdoor learning.”
“I am pleased to confirm that, following very careful and full consideration of the matter, the Scottish Government has today lodged a motion for a financial resolution for the bill, which we will vote to support when ministers move the motion tomorrow. I trust that that will come as welcome news to members from across the chamber. As I have made clear to members since stage 1, the Scottish Government absolutely recognises the important role that outdoor learning in all its forms, including residential outdoor education, can play in supporting the development of our children and young people. That is reflected in our refreshed learning for sustainability action plan, which was published in 2023. It might be helpful to briefly note some of the Government’s activity in that regard for the Parliament’s awareness more widely.”
“I welcome the opportunity to address the Parliament to provide an update on the Scottish Government’s on-going support for outdoor learning provision for our children and young people and, in particular, on our formal position on the financial resolution for the Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill, which was introduced by Liz Smith. As members are aware, for Liz Smith’s bill to proceed to stage 2, a motion for a financial resolution must be lodged within six months of the conclusion of stage 1. I very much welcome the engagement that I have had with members from across the chamber, and I thank the member in charge, Liz Smith, for the constructive discussions that we have held.”
“We will provide an update on the review in the autumn, which will take the appropriate steps to help to make the process clearer and more effective for parents. We need to remember that mothballing is an important process for local authorities to manage their learning estate, so a balance has to be struck. I am happy to provide an update to Parliament in the autumn on the review of the guidance, as I have stated. Construction Sector (Training and Apprenticeships) 8.”
“Parents in the Scottish Borders have legitimate concerns about the mothballing process and the Government’s guidance on it. Does the minister agree that, to address those concerns, any proposals right now to mothball nurseries must be paused until the Government has published the guidance? It seems apparent, if the written answers are anything to go by, that the review on mothballing will find that it is entirely inappropriate action for local authorities to take. Natalie Don-Innes: As I said, local decisions are for local authorities. However, any decisions that impact on nursery provision should be made in consultation with local communities and affected parents and families. I have been clear that the mothballing guidance remains in place.”
“Scottish ministers have committed to updating the advice to local authorities on mothballing that is contained in the statutory guidance for the Schools (Consultation) (Scotland) Act 2010. Scottish Government officials continue to engage with local authorities, parent representatives and other stakeholders as part of that work, and we aim to provide an update to Parliament as soon as possible during the autumn term. While the review is under way, the existing guidance on mothballing remains in place. Decisions relating to the learning estate, including nurseries, are the responsibility of local authorities. Rachael Hamilton: I am pleased to hear that there will be an update this term. However, I believe that, under the guidance from the Scottish National Party Government, nurseries in rural areas are under threat.”
“The process is not unique to the Scottish Government; the Welsh Government, the United Kingdom Government and Northern Ireland Administrations have similar processes.”
“Government’s use of process instead of choice is disappointing. What explanation can the minister give as to why process was chosen instead of debating a motion on the financial memorandum, given that meetings were held in February and August and that all the outreach that she has just spoken of could have fed into such a debate? Natalie Don-Innes: The question by Mr Whitfield presupposes the outcome of a Government decision on the financial resolution. I remind Parliament that, as I confirmed during the members’ business debate and in committee sessions last week, the financial resolution process is a legitimate and important process that ensures that ministers can exercise our unique responsibility and accountability for appropriate management of the Scottish budget.”
“The Scottish Government has engaged with stakeholders on our outstanding concerns about the bill, which relate to affordability, equity for pupils with additional support needs and the workforce. I met the Association of Heads of Outdoor Education Centres on 25 February, the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities on 6 August and trade unions on 25 August. Since the introduction of the bill, officials have also engaged the Association of Directors of Education in Scotland and the national complex needs network. I will confirm to Parliament the Government’s position on the financial resolution for the bill by 26 September. Martin Whitfield: I am grateful to the minister for that response and for the meetings that were held in February and August, but Government is about choice and the Parliament is the people’s voice of account.”
“Focusing on only one form of outdoor learning risks overlooking what may work best on the ground and which enabling measures may be the most supportive in continuing to improve that provision.”
“However, those positive and inspiring examples of how outdoor learning in all its forms is being provided to deliver personal and educational outcomes for pupils are not unique to Mid Scotland and Fife. Staff and learners at Cedarbank, an additional support needs school in West Lothian, have found that a dedicated three- year outdoor learning programme benefits learners and provides rich opportunities to connect with nature, care for living things and develop lifelong skills. All those examples—I have more, but I want to respond to the points that have been raised in the debate—show that the provision of impactful outdoor learning is already a key part of education and youth work, with or without legislation. They also show that provision is varied, reflecting the diversity of needs among our children and young people.”
“All that we need to know is whether the Government will lay a financial resolution by 26 September. Natalie Don-Innes: I will be getting on to that—I have a lot to say and now, less time to say it. Limekilns primary school in Fife demonstrates how localised outdoor learning activities can form part of the regular educational experiences of its pupils. The school has leased a piece of local vacant land that it has turned into a thriving community garden, with each class looking after its own raised bed. The children are outdoors all year round, building strong ties with their community. As the seasons change, they discover new things and get involved in that together.”
“However, residential experiences may not be suitable for all learners. Therefore, it is important to have other outdoor learning opportunities available for children and young people. Mr MacGregor rightly highlighted the benefits that outdoor learning in all its forms has for children and young people. A good example of that in the region is Fife Council’s non-residential outdoor education centre at Lochore meadows, which has a variety of adaptive equipment and accessible facilities for inclusive provision. Fife Council’s outdoor learning skills framework sets out how education practitioners can deliver progressive outdoor learning experiences— Graham Simpson: Will the minister take an intervention? Natalie Don-Innes: Yes. Graham Simpson: We do not really need to hear all that.”
“I thank all the members who have contributed to today’s debate, and I reiterate my recognition of the important role that is played by residential outdoor education in the development of our children and young people. I also thank Liz Smith for her continued work to raise awareness of the importance of residential education. There are many examples of impactful residential outdoor education and wider outdoor learning provision in the Mid Scotland and Fife region, some of which we have already heard about in the debate. That includes the PGL Dalguise centre, which has outdoor adventure activities that can support the development of key life skills for young people. There are many other examples that are having hugely positive impacts, and I want to be clear that I share the enthusiasm for those.”
“Earlier this week, the First Minister and the Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills met local authority directors of education to reflect on the progress of 10 years of the Scottish attainment challenge and to look ahead at what more we need to do to give more children a chance to get the skills and qualifications that they need to succeed in life.”
“The statistics show that we need to go further to continue the positive long-term trends that I referred to. In the statistics, it is good to see an increase in the proportion of looked-after leavers going on to positive destinations nine months after leaving school. That means that we now have more children and young people from the most challenging circumstances getting the chance to succeed at school and in life. We and key partner agencies, such as local authorities, need to accelerate our efforts to keep the Promise.”
“It is important for us to understand how our investment could be more impactful. Martin Whitfield: I am grateful to the minister for that response. Schools in Scotland must be ambitious for care-experienced children and ensure that they have all that they need to thrive. The independent care review resulted in the Promise, and yet the latest results show that the percentage of pupils leaving school early is rising and there is a 10-point gap in relation to positive destinations. Those statistics are a damning picture of the SNP Government’s failure to keep the Promise. What is more concerning from the minister’s answer is that the Government does not appear to understand why. Is that the case? Natalie Don-Innes: I do not agree with all of that.”
“I appreciate Mr Whitfield’s concerns. However, it is important not to lose sight of the positive difference in educational outcomes over the long term. The gap in the proportion of children achieving one Scottish credit and qualifications framework level 5 qualification or better reduced by more than 20 percentage points between 2009-10 and 2023-24. We have introduced a range of targeted support measures, such as the care-experienced students bursary, the Skills Development Scotland mentoring scheme and the provision of more than £70 million to local authorities through the Scottish attainment challenge fund to support the attainment and wellbeing of care-experienced children and young people. However, I appreciate that the measurements in 2023-24, where progress was static or showing small declines, require increased focus.”
“As he said, online bullying can take place outside the school gates, which adds an extra level of complexity. A lot of what we have been talking about in the chamber this afternoon is to do with tackling violence. Supporting our teachers has a part to play in that, as well as ensuring that incidents are recorded and children and young people have the confidence to come forward and report such incidents. On the work that I am leading alongside Ms Brown, I can confirm that the online safety task force’s priority will be to engage with the UK Government and social media and tech companies on those exact matters in order to seek a better way forward to protect our children and young people from online harm. The Deputy Presiding Officer: If he ensures that his party colleagues will behave, I will take a supplementary question from”
“As the minister said, online bullying does not end at the school gates; it is often hidden and can cause untold misery for its victims every hour of the day. In response, Dumfries and Galloway Council has announced a review of bullying, which is taking the views of schools, children, young people, parents and carers into account. However, councils cannot tackle that massive problem alone. Will the minister commit to ensuring that schools have the resources—both guidance and funding—to tackle concerns about online bullying? Will she update the Parliament on what engagement the Scottish Government has had with the United Kingdom Government to ensure that social media giants do everything that they can to protect Scotland’s children from online harm? Natalie Don-Innes: Mr Hoy has raised a crucial point.”
“Any bullying is unacceptable and must be addressed promptly and effectively. Online bullying can take place at any time of day, during school time or after hours, and we recognise the impact that it can have on a young person. In November, we published updated anti- bullying guidance, which has an increased emphasis on how schools can support young people who are experiencing online bullying. Together with the Minister for Victims and Community Safety, I am leading a joint ministerial task force that is focused on tackling online harms, which will seek to identify what more can be done to protect young people online. Craig Hoy: Dumfries and Galloway youth council is an organisation that is run for and by young people. Last year, it highlighted bullying as one of its top five major local concerns.”
“Natalie Don-Innes: I can confirm, as I said in my previous answer, that senior Scottish Government officials wrote to the council’s director of education on 29 May to draw the council’s attention to the existing mothballing guidance, including the provisions relating to consultation with affected families and communities.”
“A full council meeting is taking place next Monday to make a final decision, but, despite numerous questions, we still appear to be going round in circles, with ministers saying that consultation is required under the guidance and council officers saying that it is not. I asked the minister to write to the council—which was done on 30 May—but it is disappointing that the contents of that letter were not shared with my office. Can the minister simply confirm that her letter to the council confirmed what she and the First Minister have said in the chamber, which is that a consultation should have taken place?”
“As I have explained previously, it is the statutory responsibility of local authorities to manage their early learning and childcare estate in consultation with local communities to which they are democratically accountable. Although it would not be appropriate for me to comment on an individual council’s processes, I can confirm that senior officials have written to Aberdeenshire Council to highlight the requirements of statutory guidance in relation to the mothballing of local authority services. I understand that Mr Burnett is keen to take up my previous offer of a meeting, which I believe is now in the process of being arranged, and I look forward to it. Alexander Burnett: I am glad that the minister is aware of the proposal to mothball four nurseries in Aberdeenshire.”
“However, as a result of what Mr Eagle raised with me, we will look at the guidance and work with Disclosure Scotland on the information that is being provided to ensure that it reflects an accurate position. Honouring Prominent Figures 5.”
“In response to feedback, Disclosure Scotland has developed an exceptions process to allow children to apply for PVG scheme membership from the age of 15 years and eight months, so that it is active from their 16th birthday in order to prevent what Mr Eagle has referred to from happening. The exceptions process is available across all sectors, including sports, and it was put in place to support young people who leave school and move into a regulated role as their chosen career or to a further education pathway that can include training or work in sports coaching. The process requires the child to make a paper application, which will be processed to commence from their 16th birthday.”
“We are fortunate to have many young people who support sports and social clubs before they are 16, but, as soon as they turn 16, they must have a PVG certificate, and there is some confusion about when they can apply for that, with clubs worried that they will have to ask young people to stop volunteering, potentially for months, before a PVG certificate application is approved. Does the minister agree that we do not want to discourage young people from volunteering, and can she clarify the latest information from Disclosure Scotland with regard to when 16-year-olds can apply for a PVG certificate and how that is being communicated to clubs? Natalie Don-Innes: Yes, absolutely, and I would like to provide clarity today.”
“Disclosure Scotland engages regularly with sectors that use its services. Feedback received covers a range of areas related to the PVG scheme, highlighting needs and questions and addressing what works well. The PVG scheme covers a diverse base of stakeholders, some of which have unique needs and concerns, but feedback is continuously addressed and has led to the provision of additional guidance for certain sectors, alongside training workshops and a dedicated stakeholder engagement function. Tim Eagle: I thank the minister for an early discussion on that. A number of clubs have contacted me about a potentially unintended consequence of the changes to the PVG rules.”