Roz McCall
Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party · Scotland
“That restraint and seclusion have been used inconsistently and without parents being told is worrying, and that is exactly what the bill hopes to address. When parents find out what has happened to their child only because of bruises, distress and changes in behaviour, that is not just a failure to communicate; it is a failure of trust.”
“Beth Morrison and Kate Sanger have been mentioned by absolutely everyone who has contributed to the debate, which shows just how much work they have done to contact every single one of us, to lobby us and to highlight how important the legislation is.”
“Further discussion is not needed—decisive action is. The recommendations in the “Strengthening the Safety Net” report talk about having a national adoption practice model, improved training, mandatory data collection, enhanced crisis intervention and a more flexible adoption allowance.”
“Other areas of concern include the robust transfer of post-adoption support from a specialist adoption team to generic children and families services after three years. In theory, that might seem to be administratively tidy, but in practice it fails to reflect the complexity and longevity of adoptive family life.”
“I thank Fulton MacGregor for bringing the motion to the chamber and for continuing to highlight the importance of strengthening adoption support for families across Scotland.”
“My very first debate on this issue when I became an MSP was a members’ business debate on Scotland’s forgotten children, focusing on adoption in Scotland and the urgent need to improve post- adoption support.”
The complete record
Every one of 585 lines we hold for Roz McCall, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 12 of 12.
“I hope that parties that have a locus elsewhere may be able to use any influence that they have to encourage their—[Interruption.] I hear some laughter from the Labour back benches, which I think is somewhat telling. Members may be able to encourage their colleagues to reflect again on the perceived wisdom, particularly from the Labour Party—”
“Last year, I provided an update on that to Parliament and to the Education, Children and Young People Committee. It would be remiss of me not to mention Karen Adam’s speech, which was one of the strongest contributions from SNP back benchers. She was quite right when she said that poverty is not just about income but about dignity. We need to make sure that we eradicate the shame that is far too often associated with poverty. Karen Adam also spoke about the cognitive dissonance in relation to funding, which was the point that I was trying to make in relation to the Government’s efforts being hampered by policies from elsewhere.”
“Pam Duncan-Glancy: The cabinet secretary will know that, although a diagnosis is not required, it is important for families to have support and a diagnosis. To get a co-ordinated support plan, which gives children and young people rights at school, the input of a third party, such as another service, is needed. Pupils cannot get such a plan without a diagnosis. Jenny Gilruth: The member will realise that co- ordinated support plans have a statutory footing. In addition, pupils can access an individual support plan. We have seen their use increase in recent years, and many pupils have such plans, which can be put in place without a CSP. The associated action with the CSPs is part of the additional support for learning action plan.”
“It is worth recounting—I think that I had this same exchange with Ms Duncan-Glancy yesterday—that significant additional investment is being put into additional support needs through the budget. That additional £29 million does not sit on its own; it is in addition to the £926 million that the Government is investing in additional support needs. Monica Lennon spoke about challenges in relation to diagnosis, which I accept. She will understand that some of the issues relate to health, but I work on a cross-portfolio basis with the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Sport. It is also worth saying that children in schools do not need a formal diagnosis in order to access support, so they should be able to access support in our schools. We will continue to work with COSLA on that, because I recognise the challenge.”
“He talked about the importance of free school meals, but I do not recall his party coming to the Government with a proposal for the budget to support the universal roll-out of that policy. If that had happened, there would have been engagement with me, as Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills, and with the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government, but I am not aware that such advances were made. I am conscious of the time, Presiding Officer. Monica Lennon raised a range of issues. She spoke about her first speech back in 2016, when we were both first elected to the Scottish Parliament. I recall her speech, and I know how passionately she feels about eradicating child poverty. Today, she spoke about additional support needs.”
“She is also right to talk about the need for improved uptake, particularly by two-year-olds who qualify for free ELC. In recent years, that figure has increased—it is up to 59 per cent nationally. However, there is too much variation locally, and the Minister for Children, Young People and The Promise is working with our local authorities on a targeted approach to better support that work. Jeremy Balfour spoke about schools and performance, and we had an exchange about the OECD’s commentary on the impact of the pandemic. I have been fairly candid in accepting that there are challenges to take forward and, as I said in my opening speech, we can debate the reasons for those, but I did not hear Mr Balfour provide solutions or set out how we can drive further progress.”
“However, we all need to consider, particularly as we look to the future, how we can better resource our schools and our classrooms at the chalkface, because although that funding is making a difference, the situation is still challenging in our schools. I have reflected on that today. Willie Rennie spoke of the role of knowledge in relation to curriculum for excellence. We very much share a view on that, and that work is being driven forward by the broader curriculum improvement cycle. That is being led by our classroom teachers, which lends it significant credibility. We heard a range of contributions about the role of ELC provision. Clare Haughey spoke about the transformative impact of the 1,140 hours of childcare policy, which has been rolled out nationally.”
“That is exactly the point that Mr Rennie was getting at—that our expectations of schools have grown, particularly in recent years. Perhaps I should reflect that that is a result of additionality coming from the Government and expectations about the role of schools in closing the poverty-related attainment gap, engaging with families and having a broader locus in the wider community. What we expect from schools has undoubtedly changed. I was trying to make the point that our approach to school funding perhaps needs to better understand and reflect that. I do not think that I have heard a single member say that pupil equity funding is not something that we should have in our schools, and it is good that we seem to have cross-party consensus on that.”
“concerted efforts from UK Government, including on social security, to deliver the better society free from poverty that our children deserve.” I hope that Ms Duncan-Glancy will reflect on the range of policies that hamper our efforts to eradicate child poverty—for example, the benefit cap, the bedroom tax and the rates of universal credit, to which Karen Adam alluded, I think. The Scottish Government has been forced to mitigate that landscape. However, that is not the point of this Parliament—we should not have to use significant amounts of taxpayers’ money to mitigate the effect of decisions that were made elsewhere. Ross Greer was quite right to talk about expectations of my previous profession. I would extend that to the role of the school more broadly, which has changed in recent times.”
“Jenny Gilruth: I do not disagree with Mr Briggs. He cites a specific local dispute, which is a matter for the relevant local authority. I am more than happy to engage with him on the specifics of that school, but it is for that school and local authority to respond to that dispute. The Government can set national parameters but, as Mike Corbett from the NASUWT made clear this morning on the radio, it is for the local authority to enact how that works in our classrooms. More broadly, we have heard comments from the Joseph Rowntree Foundation. I come to Pam Duncan-Glancy’s points on that. Chris Birt, the foundation’s associate director for Scotland, has stated: “we need ...”
“We often hear in the chamber that there are no consequences in our schools, but that is not the case. I invite Mr Briggs to join me on a visit back to Fair Isle primary school—or any primary school, particularly in relation to the pupil equity fund. He is very welcome to do so. Miles Briggs: The teachers at Kirkintilloch high school say that there are no consequences for abusive and violent behaviour, which is why they are striking. We should go to that school and ask why it is not the case that every local authority is working together on a national plan to end violence and misbehaviour in school. That is the challenge that I set to the Scottish Government. It is not okay to say that things are okay in one school in one council area. Every school should be ending such behaviour, and we need to make sure that that happens.”
“I am sure that Mr Briggs will have heard on BBC Radio Scotland this morning the views of Mike Corbett of the NASUWT, who said that the Scottish Government had shown leadership in relation to the national action plan but that local authorities had to adapt those policies and put them into practice in our schools. Mr Briggs cited a specific school. I am always happy to visit schools, which in my role I do weekly. Perhaps he needs to reflect on my contribution about Fair Isle primary school’s nurture base, which has been enabled to exist as a result of extra funding from the Government. That funding is making a difference to behaviour and relationships in that school. The pupils and teachers at that school were keen to tell me that there are consequences there.”
“As the First Minister has made clear, eradicating child poverty is the top priority for the Scottish Government, and we will leave no stone unturned in seeking to achieve that goal. It is the focus of the entire Government, across every portfolio, as has been mentioned today. I will speak to a number of points that were made in what was, in general, a positive debate, with suggestions from across the chamber. Miles Briggs raised a number of issues pertaining to behaviour, which we have discussed at length in private and debated at length in the chamber. The Government has taken a range of measures on that. I heard calls for leadership, and I point to the Government’s national action plan, which was drafted in consultation with our teaching trade unions and COSLA.”
“I recognise the proposals that have been made in the budget and the moves towards eradicating poverty through education; however, we have heard before of record investment, policy after policy and plan after plan. The results speak for themselves. The Government may want to eradicate poverty through education but, unfortunately, the report card is coming back with a resounding “must do better”. 16:45 Jenny Gilruth: I thank members for their contributions. I am sorry that Roz McCall felt that the Government’s motion was self-congratulatory. The intention was to have a wide-ranging debate with members across the chamber, to hear their solutions to the challenges and to recognise the progress that has been made thus far. I was not clear from the debate which solutions were forthcoming from Conservatives. However, we may come to that.”
“Audit Scotland’s report on early learning and childcare states: “This is a flagship policy which underpins broader ambitions to reduce child poverty and to support economic transformation. Around £1 billion is invested in it annually. But the sector is fragile.” As Willie Rennie highlighted, there is a big funding disparity with the PVI sector, which is a big issue that must be addressed. The Government is so happy to highlight the £1 billion of investment, but it is not getting it right. The offer is so disjointed across Scotland that parents face a postcode lottery, and working parents are penalised the most. The Government’s motion was another round of back-slapping and self-congratulatory rhetoric.”
“How can the Government claim to be eradicating child poverty if it does not address all those issues? It is not a failing of Government to help people to help themselves. Not only is the Government refusing to address this issue; we are moving backwards on it. I have previously mentioned that Fife College had to close a fully subscribed course at its Kirkcaldy campus because the bus timetable changed, and no one could get to the class. I highlighted the issue when UHI Perth was forced to close the on-site childcare facility because of funding cuts to colleges. If early years funding did what it was meant to do, that would not have happened. Yes, I am mentioning early years funding again.”
“I think that it is more about balance between children, schools, the Government, community and families than about the partnership that Alex Rowley highlighted. The balance is skewed, and we have to bring it back. In my last few minutes, I will bang the drum again for the excellent work done by the Social Justice and Social Security Committee on parental employment, which again highlighted that this issue cannot stand alone. Its work highlighted how well the process could work not only to take children out of poverty but to support single parents and parents in low-paid work. The evidence taken by the committee was clear that work must be done to fix three areas that are holding people back from taking an avenue out of poverty for themselves: childcare, transportation and upskilling.”
“They deserve a round of applause. On the housing issues that Pam Duncan-Glancy highlighted, I will add that the number of children living in bed and breakfasts has more than doubled—that is a stark example of how this issue does not stand in the area of education alone. I welcome the contribution from the cabinet secretary regarding PEF and Fair Isle primary school—it is so important that we hear from children about their experience in our schools, and I am also up for a visit any time. I also echo the request from Martin Whitfield on publishing PEF data. Willie Rennie and Jeremy Balfour talked about a shift in balance made by schools and teachers over the years towards doing more, which is taking them away from their core function.”
“How can the SNP Government claim to be in pursuit of ending child poverty when too many of our children are continually left behind by an education system that is inadequate in giving them the skills that they need to succeed in life? Frankly, Scotland’s children need an education system that can help to lift them up, not put them down. That is what education is supposed to be about: giving all our children, no matter their start in life, the best possible chance at taking the opportunities that a good education can give them, whether it be knowledge-based or vocational. The truth is that education might only be part of the Scottish Government’s mission to eradicate child poverty, but it remains pivotal to the life chances of our young people. I echo Monica Lennon’s thanks to all the people who work in our education sector.”
“Care-experienced pupils are still routinely excluded from school—Mr Whitfield mentioned the oversight report, which I am sure we will get into later. Children’s mental health is not being supported and child and adolescent mental health services targets have never been met—not once. Deaf students are being failed, with a continual reduction in the number of British Sign Language teachers. Teachers are experiencing violence in the classroom daily. Teacher shortages and cuts to vital school support are failing all our children, particularly the very children who need help most. If those are the results of the SNP’s focus on education, what can we expect for things that are lower on the agenda?”
“I am pleased to close on behalf of the Scottish Conservatives. The SNP promised to transform Scottish education; it was their number one priority for many years. The language may have changed from, “Judge me on my record in education” and “Closing the attainment gap,” to, “Addressing child poverty through education” and, “The poverty- related attainment gap,” but it adds up to the same thing: a supposed priority focus on education to help address societal issues. So, what has changed in the education of Scotland’s children over the past 18 years? International rankings tell us a troubling story, with Scotland’s PISA scores in maths and science at record lows. The attainment gap remains almost stagnant, with outcomes for the poorest pupils remaining virtually unchanged. ASN pupils are not currently adequately supported in the classroom.”
“To ask the Scottish Government what its response is to reports that the Covid-19 lockdowns might have left a generation of children in Scotland with damaged eyesight. (S6T-02322)”
“To ask the Scottish Government how it is collaborating with third sector organisations regarding the provision of mental health, wellbeing and emotional support in schools. (S6O-04278)”
“They need to be nearer to their communities in a way that is safe for them and the community when a placement is necessitated, but they should not be passed from pillar to post. It was a decisive moment when the Parliament said that. I regret to say that it was not unanimous, but it was a decisive moment when we said that we are not having our children—under-18s—in our prison system.”
“Under no circumstances do our children belong in prison. Therefore, the system has to get with it—it has to get with the legislation. The Government and others just have to get with it, put our shoulders to the wheel and make sure that there is enough capacity. There are issues that we need to discuss with the UK Government. One of the issues that I am aware of from Ms Don’s statement and the passage of the legislation is the placement of children hundreds of miles away from their home when they should be placed nearer their homes in England. I am not saying that we are not or have not been guilty of doing that, but there are important issues that all the home nations need to take on board. At the end of the day, those children are our children.”
“I echo the condolences to families who have waited too long for answers. The Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Act 2024 means that most people under the age of 18 will now be housed in secure accommodation, which has capacity issues, as was highlighted in the statement to Parliament a couple of weeks ago by the Minister for Children, Young People and The Promise. Will the cabinet secretary assure me that all the lessons will be applied, where appropriate, across secure settings where young people are in our care? Will she shed any light on where any young offenders will be placed in the event of full capacity? Angela Constance: Let me be clear to Ms McCall that we closed the legal route—the legal loophole—that allowed our children to be placed in prison in order to ensure that it just cannot happen.”
“Will the member give way? Mark Ruskell: No, I do not have time. Some of the myth-driven rants that we are starting to hear—for example, that undergrounding is a cheap solution that can easily be put in place—could not be further from the truth. I believe that Stephen Kerr raised that in his speech. [Interruption.]”
“We have heard the concerns about violence in our schools, including in primary schools. Physical and verbal abuse is an issue in primary schools, as it is in secondary schools. As we have heard, mobile phones are not just a teenage problem, as 62 per cent of eight-year-olds own one. That means that younger children have the same access to negative influences and developmental anxieties as their counterparts do.”
“I am sure that the First Minister is aware of the surprise announcement by Lloyds Banking Group concerning the closure in 2026 of its base in Dunfermline, which currently employs 1,500 people. Although I am relieved to hear that the intention is that there will be limited job losses, with workers either relocating to Edinburgh or working remotely, the impact of the announcement on the local community has been vast, and the potential extra costs for staff members remain deeply concerning. What engagement has the Scottish Government had with Lloyds Banking Group on its surprise decision? Will the First Minister work to ensure that any impact of the move will be minimal for employees and people who live in the area?”
“Graeme Dey: If Ms McCall had listened to what I said, she would have heard that I said that there is more to do—I was quite clear about that. More is being done. For example, the Aberdeen university pilot, which has been launched, will help in that area. We are in no way complacent, and I have acknowledged clearly that there is more to be done in that space. Additional Support Needs (School Estate) 8.”
“In evidence to the Education, Children and Young People Committee, the Scottish Government’s former chief entrepreneurial adviser, Mark Logan, was particularly critical of the Scottish Government’s lack of progress on computing science teaching reform. He cited figures, which were gathered at local authority level, that showed that, in 2024 in Scotland, “at least 32,500 pupils” had “no access to a computing science teacher”.—[Official Report, Education, Children and Young People Committee, 29 May 2024; c 8.] When pupils do not have access to a science teacher, the minister cannot state that the Scottish Government is currently doing enough to improve their learning outcomes to prepare them for a career in the technology sector. What will the Scottish Government do to rectify the situation?”
“On the standards that children and young people can expect after secure care, those are contained in the secure care pathway and standards. All young people can expect those standards to be applied. The member also asked about the four beds. I do not expect that provision to solve all the problems, but, as I said in my statement, that is one of a number of measures that we are taking to try to solve the issues with capacity. If there is anything that I have not touched on, I am more than happy to follow up with the member afterwards.”
“With regard to the Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Act 2024, I stood here and said that we will continue to ensure that capacity is available. A lot of planning was undertaken and a lot of safeguards were put in place before the provisions were commenced. In addition, a lot of engagement took place between the secure accommodation providers, the Scottish Prison Service, Scottish Courts, Police Scotland and Social Work Scotland. We were ready for the provisions to be enacted. As I said, I was deeply disappointed by the situation at St Mary’s Kenmure, which has exacerbated things, but I hope that, through my statement, I have given assurances about the actions that were taken to resolve the matter.”
“First, can the minister confirm that greater flexibility in respect of use of the four emergency bedrooms in the secure accommodation centres will be sufficient to prioritise welfare for all? Secondly, I appreciate that there needs to be action in the medium to long term to create a more resilient system, but what preventative support is being provided to those leaving secure accommodation, the wider community and their families to prevent a return to secure accommodation in the future? Finally, one of the Scottish Conservatives’ key concerns was the need for adequate support for key agencies. That is still a concern, so what is the minister doing to rectify that issue? Natalie Don-Innes: I thank Roz McCall for her questions—there was a lot in there. I do not necessarily agree with the suggestion that we have fallen at the first hurdle.”
“I wish a happy new year to everyone in the chamber. I thank the minister for advance sight of her statement. During the passage of the Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill last year, my party consistently warned the Scottish Government that the capacity of Scotland’s secure accommodation provision would be a significant barrier to delivering the bill’s aims. In 2022-23, the number of admissions to secure care increased by 3 per cent. Unfortunately, the Government appears to have fallen at the first hurdle, and the provision of sufficient secure accommodation is now in question. Although the secure capacity contingency plan is welcome, it comes with huge additional challenges.”