Roz McCall
Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party · Scotland
“That restraint and seclusion have been used inconsistently and without parents being told is worrying, and that is exactly what the bill hopes to address. When parents find out what has happened to their child only because of bruises, distress and changes in behaviour, that is not just a failure to communicate; it is a failure of trust.”
“Beth Morrison and Kate Sanger have been mentioned by absolutely everyone who has contributed to the debate, which shows just how much work they have done to contact every single one of us, to lobby us and to highlight how important the legislation is.”
“Further discussion is not needed—decisive action is. The recommendations in the “Strengthening the Safety Net” report talk about having a national adoption practice model, improved training, mandatory data collection, enhanced crisis intervention and a more flexible adoption allowance.”
“Other areas of concern include the robust transfer of post-adoption support from a specialist adoption team to generic children and families services after three years. In theory, that might seem to be administratively tidy, but in practice it fails to reflect the complexity and longevity of adoptive family life.”
“I thank Fulton MacGregor for bringing the motion to the chamber and for continuing to highlight the importance of strengthening adoption support for families across Scotland.”
“My very first debate on this issue when I became an MSP was a members’ business debate on Scotland’s forgotten children, focusing on adoption in Scotland and the urgent need to improve post- adoption support.”
The complete record
Every one of 585 lines we hold for Roz McCall, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 8 of 12.
“That is the only sensible place, in my view, for it to reside, because the chief inspector must be an independent actor who is free from the entanglements of local authority management or, indeed, the Government interference that I spoke of earlier. They must be the safe harbour for professionals whose conscience will not allow them to remain silent. As this is whistleblowing awareness week, it is appropriate that I should have the opportunity to say that whistleblowing is, as I hope that all members would agree, not a fringe issue, but central to safeguarding professional ethics and public trust. We have already seen—most starkly in the Eljamel case in NHS Tayside—what happens when fear, silence and bureaucratic inertia are allowed to take root. We must not allow the same rot to fester in Scottish education.”
“The ability to raise concerns safely, independently and without fear of retaliation is fundamental to any healthy public service—in fact, it is fundamental to any healthy organisation of any type. However, in too many parts of our education system, that culture of openness is absent. At present, Education Scotland offers no formal independent route by which professionals can report concerns about misconduct, malpractice or systemic failure, and those avenues that exist are typically internal, often obscure and sometimes tainted by conflicts of interest. That is a glaring failure of governance, and I believe that it puts our children at risk. My amendments would place the responsibility for a secure, independent and transparent whistleblowing function in the hands of the chief inspector.”
“I also point members to my entry in the register of members’ interests as a director of the not-for- profit company WhistleblowersUK, which exists to campaign for legislative reform in the area of whistleblowing and to support people who are involved in whistleblowing and need such support. I say that in anticipation of turning to my amendments 35, 53 and 258, which concern the responsibility that I wish to confer on the chief inspector for creating a secure, independent whistleblowing function in Scottish education. They are not merely procedural amendments but moral propositions that are rooted in justice, integrity and the protection of the public interest.”
“Although I am not sure that he will press amendment 204 or move his other amendments, he has highlighted an issue on which I share some of his concerns. I am persuaded by the principle that every child in Scotland, regardless of how or where they are educated, deserves a full, fair and rigorous education, and that that should be extended to those who are educated at home. I am not entirely clear on how exactly that would be done, but I think that it is important that we consult parents who home school their children to understand what their expectations might be of any interventions in this area.”
“That not only places a disproportionate burden on small, often sole-trader services, but diverts valuable time and energy from the thing that matters most, which is caring for and educating our youngest children. This is about good governance; it is about streamlining regulation, reducing unnecessary bureaucracy and showing our childminders that we value the work that they do by respecting their time and their professional judgment. Amendment 206 would ensure that we maintained quality and safeguarding standards while reducing bureaucracy and supporting Scotland’s childminders. I ask members to support the amendment. Stephen Kerr: Let me begin by extending an olive branch of sorts to Ross Greer because, in lodging his amendments in this group, he has raised a very important subject in the chamber.”
“The amendment basically states that, once the Care Inspectorate had done its inspection, the chief inspector would not go back in and do a separate inspection unless certain parameters had been met, which are that it is specifically requested by the Care Inspectorate; there is a significant concern about the educational provision that needs immediate attention; or a joint inspection has been agreed. Across our early years and childcare sector, childminders play a vital role in offering flexible, nurturing care to thousands of families. Although they are already subject to thorough regulation and inspection by the Care Inspectorate, they often face additional, overlapping inspections from Education Scotland for exactly the same provision.”
“Martin Whitfield: I thank Roz McCall for lodging the amendment, because childminders are facing a significant challenge of, in effect, a duplicate inspection system where, on so many occasions, from the experiences that have been reported to me, there is no connectivity between the two inspections. If there was connectivity and joined- up thinking, the inspection would be useful for the parents and the childminders and, possibly, it could create an attraction for people to come back into the profession. Roz McCall: As usual, I cannot disagree with a single word that Martin Whitfield has said. That is exactly the problem that we are facing.”
“Currently, childminders who are registered with the Care Inspectorate can also be subject to separate inspections by Education Scotland. That can result in duplicated inspections, which places an unnecessary regulatory burden on childminders, many of whom are sole operators or small businesses. My amendment would require the Scottish ministers to make regulations to change the routine duplication of inspections by the Care Inspectorate and Education Scotland. If a childminder had already been inspected by the Care Inspectorate for educational provision, the chief inspector would not conduct a separate inspection unless certain parameters were met.”
“I will speak only to my amendment 206. Childminding provision in Scotland is currently insufficient to ensure adequate accommodation for children who are eligible for the early years offering. The number of childminding professionals has almost halved. A massive part of the issue is the increased regulation requirements that were brought by the early years roll-out of 1,140 hours of childcare and the corresponding costs and paperwork for the profession. 21:30 I accept that the needs of children must be at the centre of our processes, but that has to be balanced by the staff to ensure their safety and care, and the system needs to provide that balance. Amendment 206 would streamline the inspection regime for childminders.”
“To ask the Scottish Government, as part of its policies on managing deer numbers, how it is supporting public bodies such as local authorities and national health service boards to use more Scottish venison in any catering that they are responsible for. (S6O-04807)”
“Local government’s view is that section 22A takes away the ability of an education authority to determine the best location for Gaelic language provision and requires them to spend officer time and effort on a process that might determine that provision is unviable. The Scottish Conservatives recognise the good intentions behind the bill and see it as a springboard to speed up processes, but whether the legislation will stabilise or deliver a sustainable future for the Gaelic and Scots languages is far from clear. Only time will tell whether it goes the way of other initiatives for every child, such as free school meals, bikes and laptops, or whether we will see the development of our traditional speech. I wait with bated breath.”
“It goes on to highlight that “The supplementary financial memorandum focuses only on costs associated with Stage 2 amendments” and that “Concern remains that the costs of implementing the Bill have not been sufficiently captured.” The Government must do more to ensure that the funding is provided to do that. COSLA’s final point is that, at stage 2, there was a fully agreed amendment by the committee for Gaelic education. The Scottish Government introduced amendments to create a process for local authorities to consider requests to establish all-Gaelic schools. Local government is concerned about the time, resource and the expense of carrying out those new duties. There are a number of all-Gaelic schools in the absence of the legislation.”
“The pipeline of Gaelic teachers is often out with local authority control, and without concerted action from the Scottish Government and partners to increase the number of Gaelic teachers, any expansion would not be deliverable.” That issue must be addressed. We know from other Government projects, including the 1,140 hours expansion of childcare provision, that funding falters at the first hurdle. COSLA also highlights that issue, raising concerns in relation to the estimated costs for local government. It notes that sufficient information to allow an assessment of the accuracy of estimated costs was not provided, but that those estimates “seemed low” and that cost estimates of some implications for local authorities appeared to be missing.”
“That suggests that, should the bill be agreed today—I am sure that it will be—the enactment of its provisions will be entirely down to local authorities. It is therefore worrying to read the briefing that COSLA issued for today’s debate. Also, as Willie Rennie stated earlier, where are the Gaelic teachers? It is all well and good to move forward on legislation, but it is the outcomes that matter. As a former councillor I know at first hand the issues in taking forward educational changes—the 1,140 hours expansion of childcare provides a classic example. COSLA is quite right to highlight its concerns. It states: “Our submission to the earlier consultation referenced a report which noted that far too few Gaelic Medium Education Teachers were being trained.”
“The Deputy First Minister will be pleased to hear that I am not going to repeat the history lesson on the origins of Scots. Scottish Conservatives support making Gaelic more accessible. It is important that we highlight that that is not a party-centric effort. There is an awful lot of support across the chamber for making sure that Gaelic is more accessible. That is what the bill sets out to achieve. However, again we find ourselves worried about the ability of the bill to achieve its aims. We cannot legislate and forget. It will be no surprise to members to hear that I am interested in the education, care and wellbeing of the children of Scotland. In education debates, we are often reminded of the need for our councils to have the autonomy to progress Government legislation and guidance.”
“It is a privilege for me to be able to close this afternoon’s debate on the Scottish Language Bill on behalf of the Scottish Conservatives. As I said in the stage 1 debate, as Scottish Conservatives, whose ethos is based on tradition, we believe that our customs and heritage play an important part in who we are. We are proud of our shared culture and agree that we need to uphold and encourage our traditional languages. If I can play on language for just a second, what can be more basic to a Scottish Conservative than the conservation of Scots? Language, in all its forms, is the key to communication, but so little communication is effective. The innate understanding of the spoken and written word is not only the way to break down barriers, it is essential in fostering bonds and ensuring that traditions are there for generations to come.”
“Work has also been undertaken in school-age childcare in order to support the flexibility that people need when they are looking to get into the workplace or expand their hours.”
“Scotland is the only part of the UK to already offer 1,140 hours a year of funded ELC to three and four-year-olds and eligible two-year-olds. Childminders are an important part of the flexibility that will be taken forward. The encouragement of more childminders into early learning and childcare and the work that is being undertaken to support that is exceptionally important, as is the work that is being taken forward in our 23 early adopter communities. Regarding school-age childcare programme work, I have mentioned the extra time programme and the bright start breakfasts programme, which are examples of policies that not only help early learning and childcare but offer different approaches that might be suitable for families.”
“Given that the Scottish Government’s expansion of early years childcare from 21 August was predicated on working with the private sector and childminders, and that Scotland lost 255 childminders in 2022-23 alone, with the total almost halving since the SNP came into power, does the cabinet secretary think that the recruitment drive goes anywhere near far enough to address the shortage, which is entirely of the Government’s making? When will the barriers to parental employment be properly addressed? Shirley-Anne Somerville: In my statement, I detailed some of the work that has been undertaken and will be undertaken next year to assist with the delivery of early learning and childcare and out-of-hours support for working families. Our expansion of early learning and childcare has been exceptionally important.”
“Access to affordable good-quality childcare is essential to supporting parents back into work. That was highlighted in a Social Justice and Social Security Committee report last year, and it is a recognised route out of poverty. The progress report highlights the recruitment of 40 new childminders as a result of the programme for Scotland’s childminding future, which is, of course, welcome. However, that equates to roughly one and a quarter new childminders per local authority.”
“Someone who wants to pack up and move away from everything that they know and love to go to Scotland for a better life and future has a drive and a determination to succeed and thrive. They aspire to be wealthier, healthier, happier and more secure in their new country than they were in the one that they plan to leave. If we continue to ignore the underlying issues behind our population decline, we are destined to repeat the same mistakes. As much as that might facilitate a political grievance in Scotland, it is the people who will pay the price. 16:26”
“We have open borders in the UK, but people are not coming north. We have to understand the root of the problem before we can fix it. We need to encourage people to live in Scotland, but why would they, when the disadvantages outweigh the benefits? Issues including a lack of housing, inadequate childcare, transport difficulties and taxation are all working against us. The average wage in Scotland is £38,315. At that level, a person in Scotland pays more tax on £8,000-worth of their salary than they would in England. That goes against the aspirations that people have to advance and progress, especially when they are migrating to another country. Assuming that personal taxation is not a factor is simply naive.”
“Appropriate housing, workable and affordable childcare, job security and financial security all play a part. Equally, the fact that more Scots are delaying parenthood into their mid-30s and early 40s is contributing to smaller family sizes. Quite simply, Scotland’s population and workforce are affected by all the issues that are directly within the Scottish Government’s remit, including the housing emergency, economic inactivity, income taxation and inadequate childcare—I could go on. If societal pressures make Scotland a less attractive place to live in, we will be forever battling a reduction in our population. That is why migration policy needs to have a UK-based solution. Scotland receives about 6 per cent of migrants into the UK. That is lower than its 8.4 per cent population share and lower than the UK average.”
“The Office for National Statistics predicts that the UK’s population as a whole is projected to grow by 6.9 per cent in the next 20 years but, in Scotland, growth is predicted to be just 0.2 per cent. Scotland’s fertility rate sits at just 1.31 children per woman, which is the lowest in the UK and well below the replacement rate of 2.1 that is needed to halt Scotland’s population decline. As has already been mentioned, the outlook is even more worrying in rural Scotland, with a predicted 12 per cent population decline. A Scottish Government qualitative study showed that an individual’s financial, social and personal circumstances are a key consideration when they decide on their family size. Some people— especially women—are delaying parenthood in favour of an established career.”
“My contribution will continue the factual and honest approach that has already been presented by my fellow Scottish Conservatives, as well as many other members in the chamber, including the Deputy First Minister. When we are trying to find the solution to a problem, it is essential to first understand the root of the problem. To adequately answer the question of how we can produce a migration system that works for Scotland, we have to know why we are in the position that we are in. Many well-made points in the debate so far have set out some of the reasons, including our ageing population, changes to migration patterns from outside the EU, labour shortages in specific areas and illegal immigration. I will expand on population decline. Although it is not unique to Scotland, we are in a far worse position than any other country in the UK.”
“As members will be aware, under standing orders, the Presiding Officer is required to decide whether, in her view, any provision of the bill relates to a protected subject matter—that is, whether it modifies the electoral system and franchise for Scottish parliamentary elections. In her view, no provision of the Care Reform (Scotland) Bill relates to a protected subject matter. Therefore, the bill does not require a supermajority to be passed at stage 3. We will have a brief pause while members leave the chamber and before we move to the stage 3 debate, but I urge them to do so as quickly and as quietly as possible. 18:00 Meeting suspended. 18:01 On resuming— Care Reform (Scotland) Bill”
“Its current short title, which was changed at stage 2, properly signifies the full range of the bill’s content by referring to care in the round, which is a precedented approach in the conventions for assigning short titles. We rehearsed those arguments during stage 2. At the time, I explained that the short title needs to reflect the content of the bill. It is disappointing that the issue has come back at stage 3, but I am grateful that Mr Whittle will not press the amendment to a vote. The Deputy Presiding Officer: Mr Whittle, will you confirm that you are withdrawing the amendment? Brian Whittle: I seek to withdraw the amendment. Amendment 88, by agreement, withdrawn. The Deputy Presiding Officer: That ends stage 3 consideration of amendments.”
“In proceeding with the vague fiction that the bill is still some kind of reform, it seems like we are failing in our duties to pass relevant legislation. However, if Brian Whittle is not going to press amendment 88 to a vote, neither will I. Maree Todd: I do not support Mr Whittle’s amendment, and I am grateful that he will not press it. The short title of a bill should give a fair summary of its content, as it helps to index the statute book for users of it. The wording “Social Care and Support”, which Mr Whittle’s amendment proposed, fails to meet that standard. The bill is significantly concerned with healthcare as well as with social care.”
“However, it bears repeating that we in this chamber are sent to this place to pass legislation, and it is our solemn duty to pass legislation that is competent, relevant and accurate. Frankly, the bill before us does not represent that, and the title of the bill is not accurate about what it represents. In the foothills of this legislation, the Government had grand ideas about completely reforming and reshaping the care sector. It was to be done through a means that we fundamentally disagree with, but we recognise that it would still have represented a reform. However, the bill has been utterly hollowed out by the welcome removal from its pages of the national care service, which represented a ministerial power grab and nothing more. A lot of time and money has been wasted on that.”
“Amendment 87 disagreed to. Section 48—Short title The Deputy Presiding Officer: Amendment 88, in the name of Brian Whittle, is in a group on its own. I call Brian Whittle to speak to and move amendment 88. Brian Whittle: To many people, the bill does not constitute true reform and is not a reflection of what it set out to do. It is a shadow of what it should have been and has been subject to divisive debate throughout its passage. However, I acknowledge that there are provisions in the bill that will obviously benefit many people across Scotland. I feel that the content matters more than its name. In the spirit of a lack of cynicism, I will not press amendment 88. Amendment 88 moved—[Brian Whittle]. Alex Cole-Hamilton: I am saddened that my colleague Brian Whittle will not press the amendment to a vote, but I will not do so, either.”
“For Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con) Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con) Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con) Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Lab) Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab) Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD) Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con) Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab) Eagle, Tim (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con) Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con) Golden, Maurice (North East Scotland) (Con) Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (LD) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con) Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con) Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con) Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab) Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con) Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab) McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab) Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab) Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con) O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab) Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD) Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Russell, Davy (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (Lab) Sarwar, Anas (Glasgow) (Lab) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab) Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab) Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab) Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con) White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con) Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab) Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con) Against Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP) Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Don-Innes, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP) Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green) [Proxy vote cast by Ross Greer] Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP) [Proxy vote cast by Rona Mackay] Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP) [Proxy vote cast by Jamie Hepburn] McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP) McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (Alba) Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green) Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP) Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP) Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP) Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP) Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD) Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of the division is: For 50, Against 68, Abstentions 0.”
“Amendment 85 agreed to. Section 47—Commencement Amendment 51 moved—[Jackie Baillie]—and agreed to. Amendment 86 not moved. After section 47 Amendment 87 moved—[Brian Whittle]. The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, that amendment 87 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No. The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a division.”
“For Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP) Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Lab) Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Don-Innes, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab) Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP) Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (LD) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab) Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green) [Proxy vote cast by Ross Greer] Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP) [Proxy vote cast by Rona Mackay] Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab) Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP) [Proxy vote cast by Jamie Hepburn] McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP) McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab) Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab) Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab) Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (Alba) Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD) Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Russell, Davy (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (Lab) Sarwar, Anas (Glasgow) (Lab) Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green) Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab) Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP) Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP) Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP) Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP) Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab) Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD) Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP) Against Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con) Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con) Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con) Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con) Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con) Eagle, Tim (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con) Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con) Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con) Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con) Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con) Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con) McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con) White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con) Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of the division is: For 92, Against 25, Abstentions 0.”
“My apologies—my app would not connect initially, but it now looks like my vote against the amendment has gone through. The Deputy Presiding Officer: I can confirm that your vote was recorded, Ms McCall.”
“To ask the First Minister what the Scottish Government’s response is to reports that Police Scotland’s national child abuse investigation unit now carries out 700 child sexual abuse investigations a year, representing an increase of 30 per cent since 2015. (S6F-04155)”
“Ahead of the publication of the plan, I engaged with the Opposition on the issue—Mr Kerr was the Conservative party spokesperson at that point. That cross-party engagement was helpful. Perhaps it would be wise if we reconvened that group in August to look at the action plan on a cross-party basis and to talk about some of the issues that Ms McCall has rightly raised this afternoon. The Deputy Presiding Officer: I need a bit more brevity.”
“We have discussed those, and I am more than happy to engage with her further on that matter. I spoke about the advice on developing risk assessments for violent behaviour and on consequences that we will publish before the end of term. That was a key ask that came ahead of the publication of the behaviour action plan. There was a feeling from members of the profession that there were no longer consequences that they could deploy and be supported with. I want to be clear that teachers should be supported. We have exclusion in Scotland’s schools, and I have been clear that it is in the gift of teachers to use that as and when appropriate. On the member’s point about effectiveness, the action plan runs over three years, and we will evaluate its effectiveness annually. I am more than happy to engage with the member ahead of that evaluation.”
“The cabinet secretary mentioned the Scottish Government’s action plan. That was published in August last year but, since then, more than 3,000 violent behaviour incidents have been reported in schools in Fife alone. We know that teachers are having to dedicate an increased amount of time to dealing with challenging incidents and that they are dealing with a lack of support for mainstreaming pupils and the upcoming changes in the Education (Scotland) Bill. That is simply too much for our dedicated teaching professionals, many of whom are contemplating leaving the profession. In the update, will the Scottish Government give an idea of the effectiveness of the plan from last summer, particularly in light of the increasing expectations on our teachers? Jenny Gilruth: Roz McCall has consistently raised issues relating to Fife.”
“To ask the Scottish Government, in relation to its commitment that no young person under the age of 18 should be imprisoned, what discussions it has had with the Scottish Sentencing Council regarding reviewing the “Sentencing young people” guideline, which states that all sentencing options, including imprisonment, remain open to the court. (S6O-04750)”
“I know that work has started with Healthcare Improvement Scotland on Scottish intercollegiate guidelines network—SIGN—guidance on next steps that can be taken to implement some of the dementia report recommendations. I urge the Scottish Government to work with the ALLIANCE and HIS to make that happen. I look forward to a time in Scotland when sensory assessment is just a matter of routine, with everyone having access to improved care pathways and with support for people who not only have dementia but experience deafness, deafblindness and visual impairment. 17:43”
“But even when standard dementia assessments are done, the results aren’t able to separate dementia brain changes from sensory impairments which commonly overlap.” We must, therefore, ask how we know whether we are actually diagnosing dementia. The ALLIANCE is calling for sensory assessments to be a mandatory part of dementia assessment, and, considering that the number of dementia cases is set to rise by 50 per cent in the next 20 years, it is prudent to ensure not only that we are diagnosing the issue correctly but that we have in place adequate treatment plans for people, which is also essential. A lack of proper sight or hearing assessments, or even clear guidance on who is responsible for that assessment, can lead to poor and inadequate care or, at worst, people’s sensory impairments being continually missed.”
“The results of the surveys that were conducted for the report showed that only 6 per cent of GPs and 12 per cent of other health and medical professionals would assess both sight and hearing as part of an integrated assessment of memory or dementia. That is a big problem, as most dementia assessments rely on the person being able to see or hear the questions. We are diagnosing somebody with dementia without considering whether they have any sensory impairment. Dr Hannah Tweed from the Health and Social Care Alliance Scotland says: “Brain changes caused by dementia can have similar symptoms to Deafness, Deafblindness or Visual Impairment—and many people experience both dementia and sensory impairment.”
“Although dementia is not classed as an elderly person’s disease, it primarily affects people over 65, with 96 per cent of cases in Scotland involving people over that age. What concerns me most about the issue is that, although we know that there are direct links between sensory loss and dementia, we do not routinely test for sight or hearing issues when we diagnose a person. How can we be sure that any treatment plan will work for the patient if we do not know how much they can see or hear? After this debate, I will attend a meeting of the cross-party group on deafness, on which I work with some fantastic people on the issues surrounding deafness and deafblindness in Scotland. The group has been working on a report that highlights the problems in the current diagnosis pathway, which cannot help but have a knock-on effect on treatment.”
“First, I congratulate my friend and colleague Sharon Dowey on securing the debate. This is an important issue, which is not spoken about enough. It is disappointing that many of the fundamental issues that affect people in Scotland are addressed only in members’ business debates, without the full focus of the Government and at a time when many MSPs have other commitments. That is not to say that the minister will not listen to the debate intently—I am sure that she will—and I sincerely hope that progress is made on the issue. I want to highlight the issue of hearing loss and dementia. We know that Scotland has an ageing population, and we know that health and social care demands increase exponentially as we get older.”
“Members have contributed much in terms of solutions, and I commit again to working with and supporting them to drive the improvement that we need in our schools. The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call Beatrice Wishart to wind up the debate. 15:53”
“Jenny Gilruth: I am conscious of time, Deputy Presiding Officer, and I see that you are shaking your head. I am interested in the proposals that the Labour amendment sets out on funding. The Government has committed to the continuation of that funding to 2026-27. I have to acknowledge that there will be an election next year, so how we fund our schools beyond next year is in the gift of the Scottish people. Nevertheless, we have given that commitment, and I know that the Labour Party also supports the continuation of that funding. It is important to recall that there is still a lot to be positive about in Scottish education. We in the Parliament have a responsibility to be mindful of that as we want to encourage people into teaching as a profession.”
“I do not think that I heard any challenge to that this afternoon. It is important to reflect on the points that Mr Adam made about the number of teachers who are in permanent posts these days. I accept that the situation in our primary schools is currently challenging but, since 2014, across the board, approximately 80 per cent of our teachers have been in permanent posts. We also know that about 3,000 extra staff, including nearly 1,000 teachers, are currently being employed through the Scottish attainment challenge. That extra funding is coming from the Scottish Government to help to support teacher recruitment. I was interested to see the point in the Labour amendment on making the SAC and PEF allocations permanent— Pam Duncan-Glancy: Will the cabinet secretary give way?”
“However, I recognise that that is not currently the case, so we need to be creative in finding solutions to address that challenge. Mr Greene also touched on the General Teaching Council for Scotland’s relationship with, and responsibilities towards, the teaching profession. There is an opportunity for us, with the GTCS, to look at that issue in more detail. Colleagues write to me regularly on the GTCS’s role in that respect. With regard to the ask on joint workforce planning, it is important to put on the record that that process is being led by the newly established education and childcare assurance board. On the responsibilities, I note that the Government has responsibility for national workforce planning, but local workforce planning is the responsibility of local authorities.”
“We have to get agreement from the teaching unions and COSLA to move forward on that, but I am absolutely up for pushing it forward if Parliament supports that position today, because I think that there are opportunities in that respect. I turn to some broader points that were made in the debate. I am conscious that I have two minutes left, Deputy Presiding Officer. Mr Greene made a number of points in relation to STEM subjects. As I mentioned, there are issues in a range of subject areas, but the point that he made speaks to the language of entitlements. The entitlement to the totality of our curriculum is something that Louise Hayward flagged up in her review report back in 2023. We should have democratic availability of entitlements in all subject areas, and I want that to be the case in every school.”
“Douglas Ross raised that issue in relation to his constituent in Moray when he talked about recruitment practices involving the appointment of internal applicants only preventing others from being able to apply. I know that that approach was used in Fife Council when I was last employed as a teacher back in 2014, before I became a politician. There was a very locked- down approach to teacher recruitment in Fife Council, which was detrimental to enabling talent to flow into that part of Scotland. With regard to broadening recruitment practices, I would therefore be very supportive of Ms Duncan-Glancy’s proposals in that space. We have previously tried to do exactly that through the Scottish Negotiating Committee for Teachers.”