Bill Kidd
Scottish National Party · Scotland
“I think that it is possible to do that, and that having a child-centred and trauma- informed manner is important. I therefore urge members to accept my amendment or to accept Roz McCall’s amendment 75. Amendment 77 defines child-centred legal advice and representation.”
“Section 18(2) distinguishes local authorities because, unlike most other referring bodies, they will usually have on-going involvement with the child and the family once a referral has been made.”
“The minister also concedes that the amendments would not do any harm, so I would still ask the Government to accept them, because they would clarify the situation and leave things in no doubt at all. Finally—the Deputy Presiding Officer will be glad to hear—I will speak to amendment 201.”
“However, in line with the UNCRC, recent reforms made by the Parliament, such as the Children (Scotland) Act 2020, have moved away from arbitrary presumptions or distinctions about a child’s capacity that are based purely on age.”
“Notwithstanding that point, I have confidence that the dedicated infants and babies workstream will bring about changes, given who is involved in it—although I fear that those changes might not be dissimilar to what is being articulated in the amendments.”
“There is no consensus on the term, which means that there is some difficulty with legislation that contains it. The amendment relates specifically to section 18, which says that local authorities must provide the child in question with information on the children’s hearings process, the availability of child advocacy services and child-ce…”
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“The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call on Willie Rennie to wind up. Willie Rennie: I have nothing more to add, other than to press amendment 202. The Deputy Presiding Officer: Thank you, Mr Rennie. My gentle advice has obviously worked. The question is, that amendment 202 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No. The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a division. Members should cast their votes now. The vote is closed.”
“That, coupled with the ability for ministers to impose recording and reporting obligations in the regulations, will allow for consideration of how test approaches are operating before wider implementation of reform across Scotland. I move amendment 202, and I invite members to support amendments 202 and 211. Natalie Don-Innes: I thank Mr Rennie for lodging the two amendments in this group, and for his interest and constructive engagement on this important issue for some of our most vulnerable children. I fully support the amendments, which will mean that ministers can bring forward changes to reduce the number of children who are taken to a police station on arrest, and that they can pilot approaches, as necessary, before wider implementation. I urge members to support amendments 202 and 211.”
“Ministers will be able to exercise the power only to allow arrested children to be taken to places that they consider more suitable for children than police stations. Those places will be specified only by reference to either an enactment or a document. Where a document is to be used, it must be made publicly available. If it is created or updated after regulations have been laid, consultation will be required with the Police Service of Scotland, local authorities and any other persons that the Scottish ministers consider appropriate before finalising its content. The power for ministers to make different provision for different areas will allow for a gradual test-of-change approach in different parts of Scotland to be piloted.”
“It is of course important to ensure that children’s rights can be fully upheld in an alternative setting to a police station, and the proposed power will allow for the protections in part 1 of the 2016 act to apply in the alternative setting in the same way as they apply in police stations. Those protections include the right to be given certain information on arrest and the right to have a consultation with a solicitor. I recognise that, in future, there will be exceptional circumstances in which it will be appropriate for an arrested child to be taken to a police station. However, there will also be circumstances where an alternative would be more suitable. Under current legislation, there is no flexibility to allow that. My amendment 202 will allow ministers to make regulations that provide that flexibility.”
“We must also resolve outstanding matters, such as how assessments will be made about where a child should be taken on arrest, who will make those assessments and how the rights and protections that are currently afforded to children in police stations can be fully upheld elsewhere. Amendments 202 and 211 will allow ministers to make regulations, subject to the affirmative procedure, to modify the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 2016 so that an arrested child can be taken to a place other than a police station, and so that the 2016 act can operate to allow children who voluntarily attend an alternative place to remain there if they are arrested.”
“[Laughter.] Willie Rennie: There is a growing consensus that police stations are generally not an appropriate environment for children and that the number of children who are held there must be reduced. I share that view, which is why I lodged amendments 202 and 211. In my discussions with the minister, we both recognised the need to ensure that, in the future, the default position should not be that an arrested child is taken to a police station. However, we also recognised that any reforms in this area must be safe and sustainable, and they must allow police officers to carry out their duties effectively. As was highlighted during stage 2 proceedings, it is essential that we identify suitable alternatives to police stations before any legislative changes are made.”
“Amendment 200 agreed to. Section 21A—Family group decision making: information to be provided to the Principal Reporter Amendments 79 to 82 moved—[Miles Briggs]— and agreed to. After section 21A Amendment 201 moved—[Jeremy Balfour]— and agreed to. The Deputy Presiding Officer: Group 21 is on places of safety for arrested children. Amendment 202, in the name of Willie Rennie, is grouped with amendment 211. Willie Rennie: Eagle-eyed members will have noticed that we are more than three hours ahead of the timetable that was agreed to by the Parliament. There is probably a special place in heaven for the education team. However, the remaining amendments are all my amendments, and I can talk for ever. The Deputy Presiding Officer: Mr Rennie, I assure you that you cannot.”
“For Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP) Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con) Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Don-Innes, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con) Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP) Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con) Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (LD) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con) Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green) Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP) McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con) Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab) Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD) Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP) Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP) Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP) Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con) Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con) White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con) Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con) Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD) Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP) Against Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Ind) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Ind) Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Ind) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab) Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab) McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab) Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab) Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (Ind) Russell, Davy (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (Lab) Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab) Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab) Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of the division is: For 97, Against 16, Abstentions 0.”
“Amendment 77 disagreed to. Amendments 187 to 196 not moved. Amendment 197 moved—[Martin Whitfield]— and agreed to. After section 18 20:30 Amendments 78, 198 and 199 not moved. Amendment 200 moved—[Ross Greer]. The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, that amendment 200 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No. The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a division.”
“For Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Ind) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con) Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con) Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Ind) Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con) Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Ind) Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con) Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con) Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con) Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con) Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con) Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green) McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab) Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab) Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con) Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Russell, Davy (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (Lab) Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab) Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab) Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con) White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con) Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab) Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con) Against Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP) Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con) Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Don-Innes, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (LD) Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab) Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP) McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab) Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (Ind) Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD) Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP) Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP) Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP) Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD) Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of the division is: For 45, Against 69, Abstentions 0.”
“Amendment 77 moved—[Jeremy Balfour]. The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, that amendment 77 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No. The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a division. The vote is closed. Kenneth Gibson: On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I could not access the system. I would have voted no. The Deputy Presiding Officer: Your vote will be recorded.”
“Amendment 74 disagreed to. The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call amendment 75, in the name of Roz McCall. Roz McCall: On the basis of what has been said, I will not move amendment 75, but I am slightly disappointed. Amendment 75 not moved. The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call amendment 181, in the name of Bill Kidd. Bill Kidd: Genuinely moved. Amendment 181 moved—[Bill Kidd]—and agreed to. Amendment 182 moved—[Roz McCall]—and agreed to. The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call amendment 183, in the name of Roz McCall. Roz McCall: On the basis of the assurances that were given by the minister, I will not move amendment 183. Amendments 183 and 184 not moved. Before section 17 Amendment 76 not moved. Section 18—Information about referral, availability of children’s advocacy services etc. Amendments 185 and 186 not moved.”
“For Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Ind) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con) Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con) Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Ind) Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab) Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con) Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Ind) Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con) Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con) Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con) Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con) Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con) Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab) McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab) Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab) Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con) O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab) Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Russell, Davy (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (Lab) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab) Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab) Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con) Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con) White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con) Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab) Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con) Against Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP) Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Don-Innes, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (LD) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green) Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP) McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP) McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (Ind) Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD) Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green) Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP) Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP) Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP) Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD) Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of the division is: For 42, Against 71, Abstentions 0.”
“The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a division. The vote is closed. Mark Ruskell: On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I would have voted no. The Deputy Presiding Officer: Your vote will be recorded.”
“Natalie Don-Innes: I highlighted in my comments that the Scottish Legal Aid Board already requires solicitors working in the area of children’s legal assistance to meet five defined standards that demonstrate their knowledge and experience in child law. I appreciate that Mr Balfour is not assured by my comments and my commitment to writing to the Lord President and various others, but I think that that is a good next step in understanding where there are any gaps. Jeremy Balfour: I will not hold members back. I do not agree with the minister’s comments. Trauma training is vital, but I do not see it as part of what we have, so, with your permission, Deputy Presiding Officer, I will press amendment 74. The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, that amendment 74 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.”
“I will go back to amendments 74 and 77. I am still slightly concerned, to be honest, with the reply that the minister has given, because I do not see anything changing. A letter to the Law Society of Scotland and the Scottish Legal Aid Board will bring no fundamental change. As it stands, any solicitor can appear at a children’s hearing without having had any training at all. That is the wrong way forward for children’s hearings. We recognise that we are dealing with some of the most vulnerable children in our society, so for somebody who has never had any of that training to simply appear does a disservice to the hearing.”
“Amendment 201 would guarantee the availability of automatic legal aid in cases where a child is referred to the children’s reporter in respect of an offence that would likely have been prosecuted on indictment had the procurator fiscal decided to pursue a conviction. The Scottish Government is committed to strengthening children’s access to justice, and that measure will ensure that no child in those very serious circumstances is left without effective access to a solicitor, so I am happy to support amendment 201. The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call Jeremy Balfour to wind up and to press or withdraw amendment 74. Jeremy Balfour: I accept the reassurances that have been given in regard to amendments 189 and 192 and I will not move those amendments. I am again thankful to the minister for her help on amendment 201.”
“A person of 16 or 17 not subject to either of those restrictions can waive that right only if a relevant person, as defined in section 33(5) of the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 2016, agrees. The Scottish Government produces a letter of rights that is provided by Police Scotland to inform arrested persons of those and other rights, and an easy- read version is also produced. I hope that that reassures Jeremy Balfour and that he will now not move those amendments. I welcome Jeremy Balfour’s amendment 201, which seeks to bolster existing automatically laid provision for children involved in the hearings system and ensure that there is no gap in provision in cases where the child has been reported on offence grounds following a decision not to prosecute by the procurator fiscal.”
“Section 18(2) distinguishes local authorities because, unlike most other referring bodies, they will usually have on-going involvement with the child and the family once a referral has been made. They are therefore well placed to raise awareness of legal aid and advocacy services in the period leading up to and following the reporter’s decision. In addition, anyone who is in police custody or attends a police station either voluntarily or for police interview has a right to legal advice and to have a solicitor present in an interview. The right to have a solicitor present at interview cannot be waived by a person aged under 16, by a person 16 or over who appears unable to understand what is happening or communicate effectively, or by a person of 16 or 17 who is subject to a compulsory supervision order or an interim such order.”
“I welcome Jeremy Balfour’s amendments 189, 192 and 195, but I can assure him they are unnecessary, largely because the duties that they seek to create are already provided for. Rule 23(a) of the Children’s Hearings (Scotland) Act 2011 (Rules of Procedure in Children’s Hearings) Rules 2013 requires the principal reporter to give every child and relevant person information about the availability of legal advice whenever a hearing is convened. That obligation is clear and mandatory, and it is already in force. Extending that duty to other referring agencies is unnecessary, because legal advice becomes relevant only once the reporter decides that a hearing should proceed.”
“Our response to the “Hearings for Children” review noted that it was a matter for the Law Society of Scotland and the Scottish Legal Aid Board to ensure the highest of standards for those providing advice and representation to children. However, I will commit to writing to the Lord President, the Law Society, the Scottish Legal Aid Board and the national convener of Children’s Hearings Scotland to ask them to consider what further training may be required to be made available for solicitors appearing at children’s hearings, in addition to meeting the high standards that are already set out by the Scottish Legal Aid Board. I therefore encourage Jeremy Balfour and Roz McCall not to move their respective amendments.”
“However, its meaning is well established through practice, and a statutory definition would risk limiting its meaning. Moreover, creating a statutory definition without a requirement to consult relevant bodies would risk cutting across the existing regulatory framework, in which the Law Society and the Lord President set and oversee standards of competence and professional duties. I also assure members that there are already safeguards in place. The Scottish Legal Aid Board already requires solicitors working in the area of children’s legal assistance to meet five defined standards that demonstrate their knowledge and experience in child law and development. Solicitors can also choose to be specially accredited in child law through the Law Society of Scotland, and many do.”
“Why was it okay to do it when lawyers had to appear in regard to sexual offences but it is not right to protect vulnerable children in that way? Natalie Don-Innes: It is not about whether it is not right to protect vulnerable children in that way. I have laid out the advice, comments and opinions that I have received from the Lord President and the Law Society of Scotland. I cannot speak for other decisions that have been made, but I believe that this approach is the best way forward. I am going to speak to some assurances—I hope—that Mr Rennie is looking for, which I hope will also provide Mr Balfour with assurance on how Government will take the matter forward. The phrase “legal advice” that is used in amendment 77 is not routinely defined in statute.”
“At stage 2, I highlighted that minister-driven accreditation would represent a significant departure from that long-standing position and risk impinging on professional independence, which is a concern that I raise again today. That concern is shared by the Lord President and by other legal stakeholders. While I fully endorse trauma- informed practice, placing approval for solicitors outwith the independent regulatory framework would be inappropriate. I therefore cannot support amendment 74. Although amendment 75 includes consultation and would be subject to the affirmative procedure, it would still move accreditation into a ministerial responsibility, and I cannot support that, either. Jeremy Balfour: I accept that that is unusual, but we have done it in other pieces of legislation.”
“If amendments 174 and 175 are not workable, what other work is the Government taking forward to meet that aspect of the Promise and the recommendations from the “Hearings for Children” report? If I can be given that confidence, I will not support those amendments. 20:15 Natalie Don-Innes: Jeremy Balfour’s amendments 74 and 77, and Roz McCall’s amendment 75 are based on similar amendments that were lodged at stage 2. At that time, I undertook to engage further with stakeholders and consider them further. As we know, in Scotland, the regulation of solicitors is for the Law Society of Scotland, overseen by the Lord President.”
“However, we should not forget what was said in the Promise: it said that everyone involved in the children’s hearings system must be properly trained in the impact of trauma, childhood development, neurodiversity and children’s rights. That was echoed in the recommendations of the “Hearings for Children” report, which included this statement: “There must be consideration of the development of rights of audience so that lawyers should demonstrate certain skills and attributes before being able to appear on behalf of children and relevant people at a Hearing.” Those recommendations were wholly or partially accepted by the Government at the time, so I want to hear clearly from the minister, in her remarks, an answer to this question.”
“My amendment would introduce an accreditation requirement for solicitors, ensuring that those who represent children have the necessary skills, experience and understanding of what is asked of them. It is about raising standards and ensuring that children receive representation that is effective, informed and tailored to their needs. For a child, having the right support in that setting can make a significant difference to their experience and to the outcomes. I do not want to overegg the pudding, so I simply urge members to support the amendment. Willie Rennie: I will talk to amendments 74 and 75. I understand that the minister has concerns about how they would be implemented. We have also already heard about the Law Society’s concerns. It is a sensitive area in which the Government needs to act cautiously.”
“I look forward to members agreeing to all of the amendments in my name. I move amendment 74 The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call Roz McCall to speak to amendment 75 and other amendments in the group. Roz McCall: The Deputy Presiding Officer will also be glad to know that this is the last time that I will speak this evening. I align myself with the comments made by Jeremy Balfour, especially regarding his amendment 74. My amendment 75 seeks to ensure that children are supported by appropriately skilled legal representatives. They are put in a unique environment and a unique situation, and representing a child in that environment requires more than just general legal knowledge.”
“The minister also concedes that the amendments would not do any harm, so I would still ask the Government to accept them, because they would clarify the situation and leave things in no doubt at all. Finally—the Deputy Presiding Officer will be glad to hear—I will speak to amendment 201. I thank the minister and her team with regard to it. It aims to enhance existing automatic legal aid provision for children who are involved in the children’s hearings system. It would, importantly, guarantee the availability of automatic legal aid in cases in which a child is referred to the children’s reporter in respect of an offence that would likely have been prosecuted on indictment had the procurator fiscal decided to pursue a conviction. It is a helpful move forward, and I again thank the minister for her help in drafting amendment 201.”
“Amendment 189 would ensure that that happens if a constable makes a referral; amendment 192 would ensure that it happens if a health board makes a referral; and amendment 195 would ensure that it happens when the principal reporter informs the child that they need to make a determination in relation to that child. I understand from the minister’s correspondence with me that she does not believe that those amendments are necessary. I have to say that both the Law Society of Scotland and Clan Childlaw disagree. With due respect, Deputy Presiding Officer, you will appreciate that, if you have four lawyers in a room, you will get 12 different answers. The minister says that the amendments are not necessary but, obviously, other legal opinion disagrees with her.”
“The amendment added a further paragraph to ensure, at the same time, children were also given information about “the availability of child-centred legal advice and representation.” That was agreed to unanimously by the committee at stage 2, with the minister’s backing. However, it has come to my attention that that additional paragraph needs to be expanded so that it applies not only when a local authority refers a child to a principal reporter but in other referral situations. Amendments 189, 192 and 195 would ensure that children are made aware of the availability of child-centred legal representation and advice, however they are referred.”
“Amendments 189, 192 and 195 would make additions and clarifications as a result of Parliament agreeing at stage 2 to my amendment 115, which involved ensuring that children are aware of their rights to legal representation. At stage 2, amendment 115 was drafted with regard to what happens when the local authority has given the principal reporter information about the child with regard to children’s hearings. The local authority must, at that time, inform the child about what will happen in relation to the referral, about the children’s hearings process in general and about the availability of children’s advocacy services in particular.”
“There is no consensus on the term, which means that there is some difficulty with legislation that contains it. The amendment relates specifically to section 18, which says that local authorities must provide the child in question with information on the children’s hearings process, the availability of child advocacy services and child-centred legal advice and representation. Following discussions with Clan Childlaw, I felt that the phrase “child-centred legal advice and representation” should be defined in secondary legislation brought by the Scottish ministers to ensure that it is understood and complies with the good intentions of the bill. Those regulations would then be subject to the affirmative procedure to ensure that Parliament is happy with the definition, and I ask that members consider the amendment carefully.”
“I think that it is possible to do that, and that having a child-centred and trauma- informed manner is important. I therefore urge members to accept my amendment or to accept Roz McCall’s amendment 75. Amendment 77 defines child-centred legal advice and representation. The amendment was brought to my attention by the leading children’s charity, Clan Childlaw, and I put on record my thanks to it not only for its assistance with the amendment but for helping me to understand the bill better. Rightly, there is a lot of talk about the need for a child-centred approach in the bill, which is welcome and has to be the right direction for legislation that is being taken forward. However, I suspect that, if I went around all the other 128 members and asked them to define “child- centred”, they would all come up with slightly different definitions.”
“That will allow training to be given that will ensure that lawyers, and solicitors in particular, act in a way that is accessible, understandable and not overtly adversarial. There is already a precedent for that type of training being required for specific hearings—for example, the rights of audience that were introduced for sexual offences courts. I understand that the Law Society of Scotland is not supportive of the amendment. It points out that there is no training for advocates, but that is simply because it is so rare for advocates ever to appear at such hearings. Secondly, it says that it will take time for what is proposed to come about. I accept that, but, as we go forward with the hearings, it is important that families, children and panel members are addressed by those with the appropriate training.”
“Amendment 74 follows the report of the children’s hearings review, which recommended that there should be “consideration of the development of rights of audience so that lawyers should demonstrate certain skills and attributes before being able to appear” on behalf of children and relevant people at a hearing. The amendment therefore states that solicitors have a right of audience at a children’s hearing only if a solicitor meets certain requirements, such as “an approved course of training on child-centred trauma- informed practice.” The amendment also states that “The Council of the Law Society of Scotland must keep, and make publicly available, a record of the solicitors who have a right of audience in children’s hearings”.”
“Amendment 73, as amended, agreed to. Section 16—Removal of relevant person status Amendments 178 to 180 moved—[Martin Whitfield]—and agreed to. After section 16 The Presiding Officer: Group 20 is on children’s hearings: legal advice and representation and legal aid. Amendment 74, in the name of Jeremy Balfour, is grouped with amendments 75, 77, 189, 192, 195 and 201. Jeremy Balfour: The good news for the chamber is that these are the last amendments that I will be speaking to tonight and, hopefully, in this session. Amendment 74, in my name, and amendment 75, in the name of Roz McCall, look to do similar things and I hope that the Government might be willing to consider agreeing to one of them.”
“Amendment 73A agreed to. The Presiding Officer: The question is, that amendment 73, as amended, be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No. The Presiding Officer: There will be a division. For Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP) Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con) Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con) Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Don-Innes, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con) Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP) Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP) Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con) Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con) Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (LD) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con) Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green) Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP) McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con) Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD) Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP) Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP) Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP) Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con) White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con) Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con) Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD) Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP) Against Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Ind) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Ind) Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Ind) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab) Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab) McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab) Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab) O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab) Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (Ind) Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Russell, Davy (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (Lab) Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab) Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab) Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab) The Presiding Officer: The result of the division is: For 96, Against 18, Abstentions 0.”
“For Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP) Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con) Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con) Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Don-Innes, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con) Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP) Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP) Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con) Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (LD) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green) Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP) McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con) Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab) Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD) Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP) Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP) Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP) Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con) Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con) White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con) Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con) Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD) Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP) Against Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Ind) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Ind) Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Ind) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab) Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab) McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab) Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab) Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (Ind) Russell, Davy (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (Lab) Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab) Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP) Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab) Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab) The Presiding Officer: The result of the division is: For 97, Against 16, Abstentions 0.”
“Amendments 59 to 62, 175 to 177 and 63 to 72 moved—[Natalie Don-Innes]—and agreed to. 20:00 Amendment 73 moved—[Natalie Don-Innes]. Amendment 73A moved—[Natalie Don-Innes]. The Presiding Officer: The question is, that amendment 73A be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No. The Presiding Officer: There will be a division.”
“Notwithstanding that point, I have confidence that the dedicated infants and babies workstream will bring about changes, given who is involved in it—although I fear that those changes might not be dissimilar to what is being articulated in the amendments. Given the opt-in, opt-out situation and the fact that the dedicated infants and babies workstream is working well, I will, on this occasion, take confidence from what the minister has said and be assured that this Scottish Government, and whoever sits in that position after the election, will have feedback coming in from the workstream. I seek to withdraw amendment 172. Amendment 172, by agreement, withdrawn. Amendment 56 moved—[Natalie Don-Innes]— and agreed to. Amendment 173 not moved. Amendments 57 and 58 moved—[Natalie Don- Innes]—and agreed to. Amendment 174 not moved.”
“That is why the children’s hearings redesign board is establishing a dedicated infants and babies workstream, as I alluded to earlier. I hope that members will agree that the approach that I have outlined is the right one for this issue. I ask Martin Whitfield not to press amendment 172 or move amendments 173 and 174, and Roz McCall not to move amendments 183 and 184. If they do, I encourage members to vote against the amendments. Martin Whitfield: We find ourselves in the same position that we did at the end of stage 2. I understand the Government’s arguments and its reliance on the dedicated infants and babies workstream. This is a challenging area because, at the moment, the system will require additional reassurance for infants and babies to come from an interpretation of what is being said.”
“The Scottish Government will therefore work with Children First to further strengthen the training that is available on working with very young children. That will be directly informed by the support and expertise that will be offered to panel members through upskilling work that will be led by the NSPCC in partnership with Children’s Hearings Scotland. I also do not see the need for an infant advocacy service for under fives, as proposed in Roz McCall’s amendment 184, and I note that that was not an improvement that was recommended by the “Hearings for Children” report. This is an extremely emotive subject and I recognise that we must do all that we can to promote and protect the particular interests and needs of babies and infants in the children’s hearings system.”
“The operation of the national safeguarders panel and the allocation of safeguarders to cases is currently organised, under contract, by Children First. The panel was established under the 2011 act and is a fully demand-led and specialist service that is available for any child where there is an identified need. Safeguarders are often already appointed for younger children, including babies and infants, and the system works well. I therefore do not see the need for a bespoke service or type of safeguarder for infants. However, I acknowledge that there is always more that we can do to ensure that the rights, needs and interests of very young children are met in the children’s hearings system.”
“However, in line with the UNCRC, recent reforms made by the Parliament, such as the Children (Scotland) Act 2020, have moved away from arbitrary presumptions or distinctions about a child’s capacity that are based purely on age. There is a risk that introducing an age-based approach might lead to unlawful discrimination, contrary to article 14 of the European convention on human rights. I consider the current approach, which takes into account the individual needs of each child, to be the better way to approach matters. I hope that Martin Whitfield agrees and will not press amendment 172 or move amendments 173 and 174. I thank Roz McCall for explaining the rationale behind her amendment 183. However, there are technical flaws in it. The national convener has no role in safeguarder appointments; ministers appoint safeguarders.”
“Natalie Don-Innes: We all agree on the importance of ensuring that the interests of babies and infants are properly represented, that their needs are fully met and that they are supported through the children’s hearings system. However, we might disagree on how best to achieve that, and I do not consider the amendments in the group the appropriate way to do so. I note that The Promise Scotland was not supportive of similar amendments that were lodged at stage 2. If we are trying to take forward a rights-based approach that is centred on children’s individual needs, that makes the idea of creating distinctions that are based solely on age challenging. I understand the intent behind Martin Whitfield’s amendments 172 to 174, and I thank him for lodging them and allowing us to debate the matter.”
“By ensuring that infants have formal representation, we guarantee that their unique needs are not forgotten and that their best interests are always placed at the centre of our decisions. Article 12 of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child makes it clear that there is no lower age limit for the obligation to consider children’s views in decisions that affect them. Those views include not only what is spoken but also non-verbal cues and behaviours. Amendment 184 would ensure that specialist arrangements are made to understand and communicate infants’ views and experiences. I urge the chamber to support my amendments in the group.”
“An infant safeguarder would be automatically appointed for all infants aged under five upon referral to the reporter. An infant safeguarder’s role would be to represent the infant’s best interests, as I have already said, throughout the process. They would attend hearings and monitor whether services were being provided as planned. It is a monumental shift, but I hope that we can agree on it. Amendment 184 builds on amendment 183, but goes further by requiring that infants in the children’s hearings system have specialist representation. The earliest years of life are critical. Attachment, development and emotional security all hang in the balance. Too often, the needs and experiences of infants are overlooked simply because they cannot articulate them to us in words.”
“They are among the most vulnerable members of our society and—Mr Whitfield has alluded to this—due to their developmental stage, the impact of going through the care process on their development is most profound. They cannot speak for themselves, but every decision that we make affects them greatly. Amendment 183 would introduce the role of infant safeguarder—a dedicated advocate who would ensure that even the youngest children have someone who understands their needs, speaks up for them and ensures that their voices are not lost in the process. An infant safeguarder’s remit would be standardised. They would represent the infant’s lived experience within the caregiving relationship throughout their engagement with the hearings system. It would involve gathering information from the important people in the child’s life.”
“However, it is important to those who represent the voice of babies and infants and, indeed, to the babies and infants themselves—who at this stage are tiny, but who will grow up and come to understand the decisions that have affected them—that they are recognised by the Parliament, the Scottish Government and, most of all, the Promise and those in the care system as a very special case in a group of very special people. With that, I look forward to hearing from the minister and others who have amendments in the group. I move amendment 172. Roz McCall: The position of infants in the children’s hearings system is very important to me and to many people in the chamber.”