Stuart McMillan
Scottish National Party · Scotland
“Can the cabinet secretary provide any details about when funding will be in place to replace the Port Glasgow health centre with a new health hub? Can she advise when there will be investment to improve the fabric of Inverclyde royal hospital?”
“Will the member give way? Mark Simpson: I would love to. Stuart McMillan: Reform’s policies are about taking money out of the public sector, but Mr Simpson is now asking for more money to be spent on throughcare support. Where is that money coming from? I am genuinely interested to know.”
“Millions of people globally are impacted by climate change today, and that will also be the case for future generations, as has already been touched upon by Sanne Dijkstra-Downie.”
“It is important that they are successful in delivering the heat that we all need, but the issue of their environmental impact is also vital. District heating systems play an important role in communities up and down the country, but they come in a range of scales. Are they operating effectively?”
“I touched on the CPA a minute ago, and the issue of AI data centres has been raised time and again at both international and regional conferences. We are not the only people who are talking about the issue. Helpfully, it is on the agenda for this year’s festival of politics.”
“I look forward to the contributions from MSPs in the open debate, which I am sure will help the committee’s discussions on Thursday, when we meet for the first time, and during the rest of the parliamentary session. I will touch briefly on three items, for wider consideration.”
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“Before it took his life, it stripped him of his dignity.” There is the fear that was felt by Nicola and her late husband, Graham, whose bowel cancer led to terrifying hallucinations and a final two weeks of hell, during which Graham asked hospice doctors to help him to die. There is the fear that was experienced by Tora, Zoe, Sarah and their mother, Heather. They explained: “When she lay down, she made a choking noise. So they gave her medication to clear her tubes. Then came hours of vomiting brown foam … We cut up downie covers, towels, pillow cases … using them to mop up constantly … She said, ‘Tora, just kill me now’.” There was the fear of Leighanne, whose wife, Gill, died from stage 4 melanoma but who threatened to jump in front of a bus to end the pain.”
“There is fear about a so-called slippery slope, for which, as the Commons health committee concluded, there is no evidence anywhere in the world in relation to terminal illness mental capacity models of assisted dying. Moreover, the courts here have made it clear that this is a matter for the Parliament to decide. There is then the more generalised fear about taking a decision of such significance. I do not underestimate those fears, but they are nothing compared with the fear felt by those who must be at the centre of the debate. There is the fear of 22-year-old Brian Churcher, whose cancer left him in agony for two weeks in a hospice, where he pleaded with his family to kill him. His mother, Tracy, whom I met outside the Parliament earlier today, said: “This will remain with me the rest of my life. Cancer took everything from Brian.”
“Despite the House of Commons Health and Social Care Committee finding no negative impacts and, in many cases, improved investment in and engagement with palliative care in jurisdictions with assisted dying laws, there is fear about the interaction with such care. Despite no evidence from other jurisdictions and the fact that medical professionals already deal with such assessments in relation to patients stopping eating and drinking, and in relation to decisions about taking, refusing or withdrawing treatment, there is fear about coercion, when amendments to the bill last week put in further safeguards. Despite there being absolutely no possibility of any act coming into force without robust no duty/no detriment protection or key training, qualification and experience provisions being in place, there is fear about protection for medics.”
“This decision weighs heavily on us all, but, for some, there will be genuine fear. Despite consistent evidence of overwhelming public support for assisted dying, including among those of faith, there is fear that comes from being denounced from the pulpit or in church circulars. Despite the bill being explicit that disability alone is excluded from eligibility criteria, and despite peer-reviewed research from Professor Ben Colburn at the University of Glasgow showing that such laws do not cause harm to people with disabilities or undermine healthcare accessibility for disabled people, there is fear that there might be an impact on those in the disability community, who, again, polls suggest strongly support a change in the law.”
“With apologies to the Parliament, we are now beyond debate and I simply need to set out why the ban on assisted dying is failing too many people at the end of life, despite the best efforts of palliative care, and why passing up this opportunity to address that failure and the trauma that it causes would be unforgivable. I know that there are members whose position on assisted dying has been set for some time— both those for and against. I respect those positions, even when I fundamentally disagree. In the time that is available to me now, I plan to address those who remain conflicted. Some voted to support the general principles at stage 1 and others did not. All that I know is that they feel torn. They know that the current law lacks compassion and safety, yet they wrestle with doubts and questions.”
“I echo Liz Smith’s comments and the plea to those who are elected to the next Parliament that we up our game more consistently. I again pay tribute to Liz Smith, who will be an enormous loss to this Parliament. Reflecting on the debate, it seems clear that the Parliament might well vote against the bill shortly. If that is the case, I believe that it is a decision that many in the chamber, including many who will not return to it after May, will come to regret deeply, although not as deeply or as painfully as those dying Scots and their families who desperately need us to act with courage, compassion and urgency.”
“In conclusion, after reading the amended bill over the weekend and considering all of the above, last night was the time when I finalised my decision. I came to the conclusion that I could not support the bill and, sadly, I will be voting against it. The Presiding Officer: I call Liam McArthur, the member in charge of the bill, to wind up the debate. 21:49 Liam McArthur: I thank colleagues on both sides of the debate for their contributions. I particularly thank those who are making their final contributions in the chamber, whether, as Douglas Lumsden and Paul O’Kane observed, they realise it yet or not. Today’s debate has certainly emulated the debate that we had at stage 1, back in May. It has been a high point of this Parliament.”
“However, I do not believe that they have been used on such a contentious matter before. Last Friday, MSPs received an email from the Royal College of Psychiatrists in Scotland. It has remained neutral on the principle, but, following the removal of section 18 from the bill, it now believes that vital safeguards have been removed. Once again, that touches on the section 104 order issue. As we have heard, other bodies have also now rejected the bill because of a lack of safeguards. Those include the Royal College of General Practitioners Scotland, the Royal Pharmaceutical Society, the Medical and Dental Defence Union of Scotland, the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Glasgow and some others.”
“However, I disagree with allowing doctors to raise the issue of an assisted death with their patient. I disagree with allowing a doctor, who must remain at the time of ingestion of the drug, to be able to assist the patient. I disagree with the lack of opt-outs for hospices and other facilities. A variety of amendments were lodged at stages 2 and 3 seeking opt-outs for religious organisations that operate care facilities. They were seeking a conscientious objection opt-out, but those amendments were rejected. Other members have spoken about the section 104 order process, and I share some concerns in that regard. Section 104 orders have been used before in the Parliament and there has been engagement between the two Parliaments on that, so they are not a new process.”
“Jackson Carlaw touched on the silent majority, but I respectfully highlight to him that the overwhelming majority of people who have directly contacted me want me to vote against the bill. However, my decision tonight is a decision that I have come to myself. Has the bill been strengthened in parts? Yes, it has. Has the bill been weakened in parts: yes, it also has. Ross Greer spoke earlier regarding protections, and he is absolutely right. He went through some of those protections in great detail, quite a lot of which I absolutely acknowledge. I also welcome another two protections: the age of those who can apply has been increased from 16 to 18, and someone must have at least 12 months’ residence in Scotland before the first declaration of wanting an assisted death is made.”
“I wish that I did have a strong view either way, but I never have. I was pushed a bit more towards supporting assisted dying over the years, and that is because of family circumstances in which relatives have suffered a terminal illness: some with dementia, some with cancer and others with Huntington’s disease. I have seen how their lives changed and how they struggled, particularly towards the end of their lives. The experience of those family members pushed me towards being more supportive of the principle, but I was never 100 per cent there, so my vote tonight is based on the contents of the bill that we have discussed and amended. Before I go on, I thank all the hundreds of constituents who have been in touch with me.”
“First, I pay tribute to Liam McArthur for how he has conducted himself, and to him and his team for how they have gone about taking forward the bill. It is clear that a huge amount of time and effort, and passion, has been put into it, so I thank him very much for that. This is very much the toughest decision that I will have come to in my time in Parliament. Without the whole parliamentary process, from the first meeting that I had with Liam McArthur’s team in November 2021 to the amendments at stages 2 and 3, I have wrestled with the following two questions. First, are you against the principle of assisted dying? I am not. Secondly, does the bill provide enough safeguards to create what is being proposed? I do not think that it does. I have never had a strong belief either for or against assisted dying; I have always been torn on it.”
“We will continue to scrutinise the legislation in the sessions to come to ensure that its implementation and future regulations are balanced with support, training and guidance for the industry. 16:28”
“We know that such procedures are not suitable for young people and that they can have damaging and long-term consequences. The bill will improve accountability when things go wrong and give us an important opportunity to raise the public’s awareness of and educate people about the standards that they should be looking for before undergoing procedures with associated risks. Although we support the bill, we also recognise the reservations and concerns that were expressed by those in the industry who support regulation but are seeking reassurance in support and guidance. Scottish Labour supported a number of amendments that sought phased implementation and review of the operation and enforcement of the act.”
“I take the opportunity to put on the record again that we in Scottish Labour recognise the good practice that currently exists in the sector. However, we currently have no way of identifying the good from the bad and there are clear cases of hygiene and safety standards not being met, which is why the bill is so important. The sector has grown rapidly and, given the fact that these services and procedures are so widely available and easily accessible, the legislation is welcome. It is not for us to determine how a person chooses to present themselves, but the Parliament has a responsibility to ensure that public safety is protected and that necessary safeguards and regulation are in place. The bill will create an offence of providing procedures to people under the age of 18, which is welcome and long overdue.”
“We now move to the closing speeches. 16:25 Carol Mochan: I thank all of those who have participated in this debate for their cross-party working. I also thank the clerks and the bill teams for their work throughout. As I mentioned in my opening speech, Scottish Labour’s approach to the bill has consistently prioritised patient safety. The growth in the non- surgical procedures industry has highlighted a worrying gap in essential regulation to protect people and providers who deliver professional and safe services. This is a growing industry and the public and professional bodies want that to be reflected. The bill offers a chance to introduce national standards and expectations and, in the long term, it will ensure that patient safety is prioritised. We want all services to be as safe as possible.”
“I therefore thank the minister for listening, engaging and acting. The sector and the wider public will be safer as a result. Secondly, my thanks go to my constituent Jill Best. I had never met Jill until she got in touch with me to raise her concerns about this particular issue. After reading more about it and engaging with her further, I knew that she was passionate about the industry and also about sharing best practice. Jill’s actions and campaigning have brought about the bill. Others have helped greatly along the way, but I want to pay tribute to her. It shows that any person in Scotland can help to change the law. Jill’s actions will ensure that that happens today, and I ask members to thank Jill and the minister, and to vote to support the bill this afternoon. The Deputy Presiding Officer: Thank you, Mr McMillan.”
“I will not take my full four minutes of speaking time, because I have spoken throughout the process, including in the stage 1 debate. However, first, I want to thank the minister for her engagement and my constituent Jill Best for raising the issue with me in the first place. I appreciate that ministers are bombarded daily with requests for help, with many things being highlighted to them, but the fact that I have been raising it for almost eight years shows that the issue was not going to go away. Clearly, Covid-19 stopped any momentum on the issue, but the minister has always been willing to listen and engage, and I pay tribute to her for that. The round table hosted by Miles Briggs was a turning point, when the minister and everyone else in the room heard at first hand how a botched treatment had affected someone.”
“As a result of my amendment on a review after five years, which was agreed to at stage 2, and the stage 3 amendment 28, which improves the provision, future Governments will have the opportunity to try to keep pace with an ever- changing and fast-changing industry. Fundamentally, the sector is here to stay, so regulations are a must to safeguard consumers. I appreciate that not everyone will support the bill. There are non-medics who are highly trained, and the minister was clear about that at stage 2 and as we discussed the stage 3 amendments. However, ultimately, we need to guarantee that the sector will protect our constituents, and the argument on the importance of having a healthcare professional on site is compelling.”
“The bill is important, as the sector that we are looking to regulate has grown vastly in recent years. Today, the Parliament is being asked to support crucial legislation that will provide many safeguards to protect consumers. Since the issue was first raised with me by my constituent Jill Best in 2018, I have been on a learning journey. I was surprised by how lax the regulations were for non-medics. For trained medics who went into the sector, the hoops that had to be jumped through from Healthcare Improvement Scotland were strict, and so they should have been. However, there clearly has not been a level playing field, and the bill will enable the state to catch up.”
“My intention is not to delay the implementation of the bill or to create unnecessary barriers to progressing it; rather, it is to ensure that, when the new regime comes in, it will be workable and enforceable. There is confusion among those in the business about how all this will work in practice. It would be far better to get everything correct now, so that people understand what they are doing before the bill is implemented. For that reason, I ask that members support amendment 36. I move amendment 34. The Deputy Presiding Officer : I call Brian Whittle to speak to amendment 7 and other amendments in the group.”
“Given the significance of those provisions, it is important that necessary arrangements, guidance and regulatory structures are fully in place before those sections are brought into force. Effective regulation depends not only on what is written in legislation but on the systems and structures that need to be implemented and ready to operate. Amendment 36 would therefore make it clear that the regulations that are made under subsection (2) to commence sections 1 to 14 cannot take effect unless the condition that is set out in the new subsection is satisfied. In practical terms, that would link the commencement of those key provisions to the readiness of a wider regulatory framework, rather than simply allowing them to come into force on a date that might not reflect whether the system is fully prepared to operate.”
“The amendment is purely about making the relationship between those two provisions clearer, so that anyone who interprets or applies it can more easily understand how the section is intended to operate. In short, it offers a straightforward clarification that would improve the bill’s drafting and help to avoid any potential confusion. I hope that members will feel able to support amendment 34. The purpose of amendment 36 is to introduce an additional safeguard in relation to the commencement of sections 1 to 14. As members will be aware, having heard this afternoon’s debate, those sections contain the core provisions that will establish the new framework for the regulation of non-surgical cosmetic procedures, and they will play a central role in shaping how the system operates in practice.”
“Amendment 31 disagreed to. Amendment 32 not moved. Section 20—Commencement Amendment 33 not moved. The Deputy Presiding Officer : Group 7 is on commencement. Amendment 34, in the name of Jeremy Balfour, is grouped with amendments 7, 35 and 36. 15:45 Jeremy Balfour: Amendment 34 is a small drafting amendment that intends to improve the clarity of section 20. As the section is currently written, subsection (1) could potentially be read on its own without clear reference to subsection (3), even though the two provisions are meant to work together. Amendment 34 would simply insert the words “Subject to subsection (3)” so that it is clear that subsection (1) must be read alongside the conditions that are set out in subsection (3). It would not change the policy underlying the bill.”
“For Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Ind) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con) Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con) Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con) Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Ind) Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab) Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD) Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con) Eagle, Tim (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con) Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con) Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con) Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (LD) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con) Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con) Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con) Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab) McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab) Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con) O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab) Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD) Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Russell, Davy (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (Lab) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab) Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab) Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con) Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con) White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con) Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab) Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con) Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD) Against Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP) Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Ind) Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green) Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP) McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP) McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (Ind) Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green) Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP) Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP) Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP) Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP) Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of the division is: For 46, Against 67, Abstentions 0.”
“Amendment 27 disagreed to. Amendment 28 moved—[Stuart McMillan]—and agreed to. Section 19—Regulation-making powers Amendments 29 and 30 not moved. Section 19A—Regulations subject to the affirmative procedure: consultation Amendment 31 moved—[Sandesh Gulhane]. The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, that amendment 31 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No. The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a division.”
“For Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Ind) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con) Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con) Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Ind) Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab) Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD) Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con) Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Ind) Eagle, Tim (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con) Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con) Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (LD) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con) Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con) Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con) Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con) Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab) McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab) Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab) Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con) O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab) Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (Ind) Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD) Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Russell, Davy (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (Lab) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab) Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab) Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con) Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con) White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con) Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab) Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con) Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD) Against Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP) Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green) Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP) McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP) McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green) Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP) Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP) Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP) Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP) Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of the division is: For 50, Against 65, Abstentions 0.”
“Amendment 25 disagreed to. Amendment 26 not moved. Section 15A—Review of Part 1 Amendment 27 moved—[Carol Mochan]. The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, that amendment 27 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No. The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a division.”
“For Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con) Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con) Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con) Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Ind) Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab) Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD) Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con) Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Ind) Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con) Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con) Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (LD) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con) Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con) Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con) Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con) Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab) McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab) Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab) Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con) O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab) Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD) Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Russell, Davy (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (Lab) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab) Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab) Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con) White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con) Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab) Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con) Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD) Against Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Ind) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP) Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green) Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP) McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP) McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (Ind) Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green) Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP) Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP) Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP) Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP) Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of the division is: For 45, Against 66, Abstentions 0.”
“The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call Sandesh Gulhane to wind up and to press or withdraw amendment 25. Sandesh Gulhane: I press amendment 25. We are very supportive of the amendments in the group. The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, that amendment 25 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No. The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a division.”
“I also urge him not to move amendment 26, because it is unlikely that data will be available within the specified timescale to assess the effectiveness of enforcement. That matter can be addressed in the review that is required by section 15A. Amendments 33 and 37 are consequential to amendment 25, and I urge Dr Gulhane not to press them, either. In particular, amendment 37 would mean that the main provisions of part 1 of the bill could not come into force until the review of HIS’s capacity was complete and had been laid before Parliament. That would risk delaying implementation of the bill and the safeguarding provisions of the offences, and it could prevent work on regulations from being progressed. I urge members to support amendment 28 and I urge Ms Mochan and Dr Gulhane not to move or press their amendments in the group.”
“No legislative requirement is needed to ensure that HIS will be able to implement and enforce the bill. The Scottish Government will work with HIS to ensure that it can deliver what is required. That is critical, and I am happy to have the opportunity to repeat that. Sandesh Gulhane: Can the minister reassure Parliament that HIS has the required resources to carry out what we are requesting of it? Jenni Minto: As I have said, there will be an intense period of work between now and commencement, which will involve working closely with HIS to ensure that it has the right resources. It would be counterproductive to put in place an additional review requirement during that period, so I urge Dr Gulhane not to press amendment 25.”
“I hope that members will support amendment 28. I am also grateful to Ms Mochan for lodging her amendment 27 and for her support for the bill. Unfortunately, however, amendments 27 and 28 cannot co-exist. All the matters that Ms Mochan has raised should be part of any consideration of the impact on business, which will have to be assessed in a review under amendment 28. I also hope that my response to the amendments in group 5 reassures members, and Ms Mochan in particular, that support for business is at the forefront of the Scottish Government’s mind. Sandesh Gulhane’s amendments 25 and 26 address enforcement by Healthcare Improvement Scotland. I understand the concerns that were raised at stage 1 about HIS’s capacity to enforce the requirements in the bill, and I know that HIS is alive to those concerns.”
“I urge members to support amendment 28. Jenni Minto: At stage 2, I agreed that it was important to provide for a review, so I thank Mr McMillan for his amendment 28. It will strengthen the provisions of section 15A, which was inserted by his amendment at stage 2. It provides for a broad review at a point when it will be possible to fairly assess the bill’s impact. Given the rapidly changing nature of the sector, the Scottish Government will need to keep the procedures in schedule 1 under review so that the legislation remains effective and proportionate. Amendment 28 will provide an opportunity to review how effective the Scottish Government has been in doing that. It will also require the Scottish Government to assess and report on the operation of part 1, and particularly the impact on businesses and enforcement.”
“Ministers will be able to delegate the carrying out of the review and the subsequent preparation and publication of the report to another individual or body if they consider that appropriate. However, whoever carries out the review will have to consult Healthcare Improvement Scotland, the chief constable of the police service and any other person or organisation that they consider appropriate. Ministers must also lay the report that is prepared before Parliament. I am sure that we all want the same outcome, which is to ensure that procedures are performed as safely as possible. Amendment 28 will help to ensure that the legislation can be updated quickly, if required, after any review. I can see why Sandesh Gulhane lodged his amendments in the group, but I consider that my amendment covers his points, so I ask members not to support them.”
“The five-year period was chosen because the provisions of section 3 in part 1 will have been in place for a few years. With a fast-changing sector and new procedures being developed quickly, a review after five years will provide the Scottish Government with an opportunity to reflect on the changes and additions that are required to schedule 1 and section 3. The review will have to look at the inclusion of all the types of procedures that are listed in schedule 1 and at the operation of part 1. That will include an assessment of the impact on businesses, the enforcement of the requirements in part 1 and any other matters that ministers believe to be appropriate. That could include other matters that members raised at stage 2.”
“I lodged an amendment at stage 2 that introduced section 15A to the bill. However, after discussion with the minister, I would like to replace it with the more comprehensive provision in amendment 28, which covers what I actually want to establish. I thank the minister for working with me on the amendment. Members have raised concerns about the lack of post-legislative scrutiny for many years, which is why I lodged my amendment at stage 2. Section 15A places a duty on the Scottish ministers to review the operation of part 1 within five years of section 3 coming into force. However, in recognition of the concerns that persist about the bill’s impact on businesses, amendment 28 seeks to replace section 15A with a new section that will provide more detail on how such a review should be carried out.”
“Last year, I wrote to urge the UK Government to reconsider those changes, and I am disappointed that my request has been refused.”
“What assessment has the minister made of how harmful labour policies on immigration are to the dentistry sector in particular? As we know, the United Kingdom Labour Government is determined to lurch further to the right than even the Tories were when it comes to immigration policies. The Presiding Officer: On devolved matters, minister. Jenni Minto: I remain deeply concerned about the UK Government’s changes to the skilled worker visa, which will remove key dental professions from qualifying for sponsorship, including dental therapists, who are a critical element of increasing the skills mix in dental practice, especially in Scotland. More widely, those changes will impact on the ability of practices to recruit qualified staff, which will reduce access to preventative dental care and oral health improvement services in particular.”
“Amendment 276 disagreed to. Martin Whitfield: On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I have had indications from members who are online that, pursuant to the error that may or may not have occurred with the first vote, there was a misunderstanding that that vote was open longer than people who were listening in heard, because it was one minute as it was the first vote. It would be helpful to clarify the period of time that people have to vote for the people who are online. The Presiding Officer: Thank you, Mr Whitfield. For clarity, all the remaining votes will be 30- second divisions. Amendment 277 moved—[Audrey Nicoll]. The Presiding Officer: The question is, that amendment 277 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No. The Presiding Officer: There will be a division The vote is closed.”
“For Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con) Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Ind) Eagle, Tim (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (Ind) Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con) Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con) Golden, Maurice (North East Scotland) (Con) Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con) Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con) Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con) Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab) MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab) Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con) Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab) Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (Ind) Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Russell, Davy (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (Lab) Sarwar, Anas (Glasgow) (Lab) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP) Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab) Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con) Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con) White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con) Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con) Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD) Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP) Against Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP) Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con) Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Don-Innes, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (LD) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con) Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green) Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP) Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab) Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD) Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green) Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP) Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP) Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP) Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab) Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) Abstentions Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con) The Presiding Officer: The result of the division is: For 57, Against 62, Abstentions 2.”
“Amendment 275 disagreed to. Amendment 276 moved—[Audrey Nicoll]. The Presiding Officer: The question is, that amendment 276 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No. The Presiding Officer: There will be a division.”
“For Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con) Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Ind) Eagle, Tim (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (Ind) Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con) Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con) Golden, Maurice (North East Scotland) (Con) Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con) Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con) Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con) Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con) Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab) MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab) Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con) Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab) Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (Ind) Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Russell, Davy (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (Lab) Sarwar, Anas (Glasgow) (Lab) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP) Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab) Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con) Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con) White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con) Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con) Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD) Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP) Against Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP) Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con) Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Don-Innes, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (LD) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green) Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP) Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab) Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD) Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green) Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP) Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP) Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP) Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab) Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) Abstentions Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP) Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con) The Presiding Officer: The result of the division is: For 58, Against 60, Abstentions 3.”
“The Presiding Officer: The question is, that amendment 275, in the name of Audrey Nicoll, be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No. The Presiding Officer: There will be a division. The vote is closed. Jackie Dunbar: On a point of order, Presiding Officer. My app is still counting down, so I am unsure whether my vote has registered. I would have voted no. The Presiding Officer: Could you repeat that, Ms Dunbar? Jackie Dunbar: After the session resumed, I had difficulty reconnecting. When my app connected, I voted no and I thought that I had one second to spare, but my app said that I still had 15 seconds to spare. I want to double check that my vote has gone through. The Presiding Officer: Your vote has been recorded. Jackie Dunbar: Thank you.”
“I will pick up on a couple of the points that were made during members’ contributions. Returning to amendment 64, I completely agree with the points that Bob Doris made about the importance of having qualitative data rather than just numbers. That is worth drawing out in the debate, although I acknowledge the points that have been made about the difficulty and the practicalities that might be involved in collecting the data that is set out in amendment 64. I am also drawn to Bob Doris’s comments about amendment 296, which I will certainly reflect on. In closing, although I urge members to support the amendments in this group, I must warn that they can go only so far in pushing back against the incrementalism that could arise if we chose to endorse people taking their lives by voting to pass the bill. I press amendment 275.”
“Can the member explain why that is acceptable but the safeguarded option that the bill sets out is not? Audrey Nicoll: I do not consider that to be acceptable whatsoever. The point that I am trying to make is that we want to ensure that the bill includes the most robust safeguards. My contention is that clear, accurate and comprehensive reporting would be a significant part of that provision. Amendment 295, in the name of Murdo Fraser, and my amendment 275 would better ensure that suicide prevention support for those who are vulnerable is available to people who are considering taking their own lives. Having reviews would mean that the Government would be better equipped to take corrective measures when issues arose, if the bill was passed. Safeguarding must be at the heart of any legislation that relates to the use of lethal drugs.”
“I had the privilege of supporting the development of that strategy in its fairly early format—and that was certainly not yesterday. The strategy is essential when it comes to issues such as the vulnerability of terminally ill people who are considering ending their own lives. We know that, with proper support, the desire to die diminishes. Jackie Dunbar: Like Jamie Greene, I have, for a change, been mostly silent in the chamber. Does the member agree that there are currently no safeguards when a dying person attempts to take their own life or when they travel overseas for an assisted death? Under the current law, vulnerable folk can choose to starve themselves to death by voluntarily stopping eating and drinking, and many do. That is legal and doctors are required to support them in that.”
“Despite that being clear in annual reporting, issues have not been rectified. I doubt that that was the original intent of lawmakers. In fact, last year, in Washington state, they decided that, due to budget restrictions, they would drop annual reporting on their operation of assisted dying altogether. The evidence from abroad flags for us the issue that, even with the best reporting, incrementalist expansion and a lack of corrective action remain a risk. I draw members’ attention to amendments 289, 296 and 116, in the names of Stuart McMillan, Stephen Kerr and Sue Webber, which attempt to address the issue. I, too, commend the Scottish Government’s suicide prevention strategy, which is world leading, as Kevin Stewart highlighted earlier.”
“To draw on his comments, perhaps it is the case that different models have different strengths and weaknesses. My amendments 275 to 277 and the amendments in the names of Bob Doris, Emma Roddick, Miles Briggs, Sue Webber and Murdo Fraser all attempt to bolster reporting and increase accountability. I consider that they are proportionate and that they will strengthen and complement reporting. However, I am also mindful of the comments that have been made about overlap and duplication. That brings me on to issues that have been flagged in Oregon, where more than two thirds of the data have been found to be missing in reports on matters such as complications. Annual reporting has shown that, in practice, the application of the terminal illness threshold has expanded well beyond a normal understanding.”
“However, as the Health and Sport Committee in the House of Commons concluded after a 14-month inquiry, we know that there is no example of a terminal illness mental capacity model of assisted dying that has expanded its eligibility criteria. That dates back to Oregon in the late 1990s. Yes, there are jurisdictions that have models of assisted dying that are more expansive—Audrey Nicoll mentioned Canada and the Benelux countries— but there is no example of any of them amending their criteria to make eligibility narrower or more restrictive. As I said, I want to reinforce the fact that there is no example of a jurisdiction with a terminal illness mental capacity model of assisted dying that has expanded its eligibility criteria over the years. Audrey Nicoll: I very much note and accept the member’s point about different models.”