Brian Whittle
Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party · Scotland
“As Jamie Halcro Johnston said, roads, rail networks and ferries—we keep coming back to ferries—are key to keeping those communities where they are and stopping migration away from them. The chamber will welcome the fact that this— eventually—is my last speech in this parliamentary session.”
“Speaking as somebody who got his first mobile phone—a brick of a thing—at the age of 32, I find that quite astonishing. It is important that pupils have the opportunity to put their phones down in school, but also important is what happens outside school.”
“As always, I want to introduce a slightly different approach to the subject and so I will talk about how we should develop health policy. We must start from the position that services should be available to our communities no matter where they are, whether they are urban, rural or on islands.”
“It is interesting that the girls attitudes survey carried out by Girlguiding UK in 2025 found that girls are restricting their online activity in order to protect themselves, with more than a third of respondents reporting that they avoid using certain apps and platforms in order to protect themselves.”
“It is a pleasure to follow Beatrice Wishart, who, as we all know, has been a real champion for her communities in the time that she has spent here.”
“That was an interesting question from Mr Harvie, as the Scottish Greens have spent the majority of this session of Parliament demonising our farmers and food producers.”
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“If neurodivergent conditions were never supposed to fall under child and adolescent mental health services, why did the Scottish Government allow that to occur in the data in the first place, and for such a length of time? In March 2024, the workforce census of the Royal College of Psychiatrists reported that the number of general psychiatrists, including locum rolls, had remained unchanged for more than a decade. According to freedom of information data that I obtained, only 32 per cent of children were seen for an assessment within the timescales recommended by the national autism implementation team.”
“I thank the minister for early sight of his statement. This is the first time that I have been able to officially welcome him to his new post. He takes it over at a really challenging time, as he has just alluded to. When we have such a massive increase in diagnoses over such a short period of time, it is obvious that something catastrophic has occurred. I put it to the minister that the Scottish Government has not been entirely honest with the public or the families who have suffered on the waiting list. The gathering of data has not been transparent and the Scottish Government has once again been cherry picking and manipulating the data to fit its narrative.”
“The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call Beatrice Wishart, to be followed by Liam Kerr. You have up to three minutes, Ms Wishart. 13:26”
“Gulls are traditionally associated with the sea, and my constituent lives inland, so the only reason that the gulls are there is for a food source. Their natural behaviour and environment have changed because of human interaction. Unless councils are given greater enforcement powers, along with the powers to manage the population, those issues will persist and grow. I hope that the minister will address those key issues in his response. I once again thank my colleague Douglas Ross for raising this important issue. The Deputy Presiding Officer: Due to the number of members who still wish to speak in the debate, I am minded to accept a motion without notice, under rule 8.14.3, to extend the debate by up to 30 minutes. Motion moved, That, under Rule 8.14.3, the debate be extended by up to 30 minutes.—[Douglas Ross] Motion agreed to.”
“Neither does the council have any legal powers to require other building owners to follow the hierarchy of controls that are referred to by NatureScot before ultimately applying to it for a licence to remove nests and eggs. That is an action of a responsible property owner. The approach to gull management needs to change to a proactive whole-system approach, working with residents, businesses and property owners, who each have a role to play. Not only do councils and businesses need the ability to get a licence for control measures, as my colleague Douglas Ross has laid out, but councils need more powers for enforcement in situations where the building owners and occupiers are documented and not managing their premises responsibly.”
“I realise that these birds are protected but in doing so then the council/ Scottish Government must be responsible for the impact they are having on residents lives.” When I raised the issue with the council on behalf of my constituent, it told me that it has no statutory duty to take action against the gulls and that it has no statutory powers to enforce the changes in behaviour that are needed to make a meaningful impact in such situations. In fact, it has said that it cannot stop people from feeding birds. However, it tries to encourage responsible feeding and offers education to that effect in the cases that are brought to its attention.”
“In his own words, he “spent a considerable amount of money on this property including the back garden area for the benefit of my grandchildren. The last two summers have been ruined with the council’s inability to do something about these birds and the pest they have become. My rear garden has become a no-go zone in the summer due to constant swooping when the young gulls are born, and the constant large amounts of toxic bird waste being deposited over my garden area.”
“I acknowledge that a balance must be struck between managing nuisance birds and managing conservation and the wider impacts on the ecosystem. However, we must also recognise that there is an inherent risk to people and property as gull numbers increase in human-populated areas. I recognise that some councils in my constituency are better than others at managing nuisance birds, and some face different challenges in that area. The Scottish Environment Protection Agency uses East Ayrshire Council’s seagull management plan as an example of good work. However, that does not mean that there are no seagull-related issues in East Ayrshire, and even the best councils have limited tools at their disposal. A constituent of mine moved to Kilmarnock in 2021.”
“I thank my colleague Douglas Ross for bringing the debate to the chamber. I listened to the interaction between Douglas Ross and Christine Grahame about terminology. As a Troon boy, and having had the great pleasure for 30 years of doing my morning run along the beach with my dog, I can assure members that “dive-bombing” is a very good description of what gulls do. Fortunately, my dog was smart enough and big enough to take care of herself— Christine Grahame: Will the member take an intervention? Brian Whittle: Of course I will give way to Christine Grahame. Christine Grahame: “Dive-bombing” is a description of an action. Terms such as “menace” apply a characteristic. Brian Whittle: It is a very apt description of what gulls have been doing for years.”
“Martin Whitfield: The mischievous question that follows is whether, if the plan was laid today, the 40-day limit would be challenging. Ross Greer: Because of the way in which the provision is drafted, the period would not include recess, which is critical. That issue came up at stage 2. Clearly, 40 literal days, rather than 40 sitting days, would be of no use whatsoever, particularly over the summer recess. I reassure Mr Whitfield that the amendment is future proofed in that regard. I hope that that is a reasonable point of compromise and that the Government will see the intention with which the amendment was lodged.”
“Obviously, it is up to parliamentary committees whether to operate on a majoritarian basis. It would be up to a committee whether to send a letter to the chief inspector that reflected both majority and minority positions within it. I do not want to dictate to future committees of future sessions of Parliament how to go about it, but I am attempting to give Parliament an adequate period of time in which to express a view. That may be a collective view by consensus, which would be preferable. However, although a consensus view might not be possible, I still think that it would be appropriate for the views of the elected representatives of this country in relation to the plan to be taken into account by the chief inspector. I see that Mr Whitfield wants to come back in.”
“Ross Greer: I did not specify the committee, because committees change with each session of Parliament. In legislation, it is therefore best practice to refer to “Parliament”, and it would then be primarily for the Parliamentary Bureau to decide in the first instance. In practice, however, it is quite obvious to all members that there is always a committee that deals with education specifically or, in this session, education, children and young people. It would be for that committee to decide whether it wished to take evidence and invite submissions from key stakeholders on it, as well as to provide feedback to the chief inspector on what was in the draft. It could work that into its work plan. I would hope that, like quite a lot of committee work, that would be based on points of consensus.”
“I understand the Government’s concern about adding 60 days on top of that. However, further inspection plans should not be, and do not need to be, produced in a rush; there should be time for Parliament to consider them. That is a reasonable compromise with those who believe that the inspectorate should be accountable to Parliament rather than the Government. That is not a view that I share, but I think that we can reach a level of accommodation and ensure a substantial role for Parliament in relation to that area. Martin Whitfield: What is Ross Greer’s view as to what Parliament would do if there was disagreement? Further, are we talking about the education committee, or any committee to come that covers education, or Parliament as a whole?”
“Amendment 237 focuses on an area that has turned out to be of significant controversy between me and the cabinet secretary, which is the difference between 60 and 40 days. Amendment 237 would reduce the number of days for which the first inspection plan that is produced by the chief inspector must be laid before Parliament. I amended the bill at stage 2 to require inspection plans to be laid before Parliament for 60 rather than 40 days. This amendment is an attempt at a compromise with the Government, which disagreed with that extension. It seeks to address its concern that the first inspection plan being laid before Parliament for 60 days is too long, given the time period that would come before that 60- day countdown began—that is, the time period between now and then, once the bill is passed and receives royal assent and so on.”
“In practical terms, that means looking at safeguarding, health and safety and wellbeing policies, and confirming that those are not paper exercises but living procedures. Together, the amendments would strengthen transparency and focus on welfare without adding any new layer of bureaucracy. Building a predictable process and a clear emphasis on duty of care into inspection will build in trust and, ultimately, improve the quality of Scottish education. I move amendment 231. Ross Greer: Amendment 232 would require the chief inspector’s inspection plan to set out how the inspections will consider the extent to which relevant establishments are securing the rights of children. I hope that that is an uncontroversial suggestion.”
“Amendment 231 would require the published inspection plan to set out who will receive advance notice of an inspection and how it will be given, wherever notice is usually appropriate. I have spoken to headteachers and teaching staff who have told me that timely and transparent notice reduces anxiety, allows constructive preparation and ensures that staff, parents and learners all understand the process and their role within it. Amendment 231 would make that good practice a statutory expectation. Amendment 233 addresses the substance of an inspection. It instructs the chief inspector to explain in the plan how inspectors will assess an establishment’s duty of care to both the learners in its charge and the staff it employs.”
“Amendment 229 disagreed to. Amendments 36 and 230 not moved. The Deputy Presiding Officer: Group 19 is on the inspection plan. As we are nearing the agreed time limit, I consider it necessary to exercise my power under rule 9.8.4A(c) of standing orders to allow the debate on the group to continue beyond the time limit in order to avoid the debate being unreasonably curtailed. Amendment 231, in the name of Pam Duncan- Glancy, is grouped with amendments 232, 233, 37, 237, 238, 41 and 42. Pam Duncan-Glancy: Yesterday, we spoke about the frequency of inspection. The scheduled frequency of an inspection means very little unless those it affects know when it is coming and what it will look at. The two amendments that I have lodged in this grouping add that clarity to the annual plan.”
“For Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Lab) Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab) Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab) Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab) Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab) McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab) Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab) O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab) Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Russell, Davy (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (Lab) Sarwar, Anas (Glasgow) (Lab) Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab) Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab) Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab) Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab) Against Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP) Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con) Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con) Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con) Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Eagle, Tim (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP) Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con) Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (LD) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con) Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green) [Proxy vote cast by Ross Greer] Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP) [Proxy vote cast by Rona Mackay] Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP) McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP) McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con) Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD) Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con) Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP) Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP) Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP) Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP) Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con) Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con) Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD) Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of the division is: For 22, Against 93, Abstentions 0.”
“Amendment 223 agreed to. Amendment 224 not moved. After section 35 Amendments 225 to 228 not moved. Section 36—Inspection plan The Deputy Presiding Officer: I remind members that, if amendment 229 is agreed to, I will not be able to call amendment 36, due to a pre-emption. Amendment 229 moved—[Pam Duncan- Glancy]. The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, that amendment 229 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No. The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a division.”
“On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I, too, would have voted yes. The Deputy Presiding Officer: Thank you. I will make sure that that is recorded. For Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP) Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con) Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con) Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con) Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Eagle, Tim (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP) Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con) Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (LD) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con) Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green) [Proxy vote cast by Ross Greer] Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP) [Proxy vote cast by Rona Mackay] Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP) McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP) McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con) Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD) Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con) Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP) Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP) Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP) Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP) Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con) Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con) Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con) Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD) Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP) Against Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Lab) Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab) Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab) Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab) Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab) McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab) Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab) O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab) Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Russell, Davy (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (Lab) Sarwar, Anas (Glasgow) (Lab) Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab) Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab) Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab) Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of the division is: For 93, Against 22, Abstentions 0.”
“On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I am sorry, but I have a bad connection here. I would have voted no. The Deputy Presiding Officer: I will make sure that that vote is recorded. Foysol Choudhury: On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I was unable to connect. I would have voted yes. The Deputy Presiding Officer: I will make sure that that vote is recorded.”
“On a point of order, Presiding Officer. My app would not connect. I would have voted yes. The Deputy Presiding Officer: Thank you, Mr Whittle. Your vote will be recorded.”
“However, the statement is an acknowledgement that we need to do more. We need to go further and we need to go faster. On delivery, both of the documents set out the progress that we wish to make over the coming years, and I expect to see some elements of them delivered quickly. Some changes will be happening now, such as those that I announced in relation to foods that are high in fat, salt and sugar, and our proposed structural changes to some of our national boards. On Brian Whittle’s question about the digital front door, he is correct. The initial pilot is happening in Lanarkshire at the end of this year and we expect to roll it out to the rest of Scotland in 2026.”
“Finally, the much-trumpeted digital front door, commonly known as the NHS app and first announced in 2021, is expected to be providing limited services to dermatology patients in Lanarkshire by the end of the year. When does the cabinet secretary expect it to be able to do for patients in Scotland what it can already do for all the patients in the rest of the United Kingdom? Neil Gray: I thank Brian Whittle for what I think was his support for what we have set out in the documents. I recognise that there has to be a continued emphasis on prevention. With regard to what Ms Robison set out when she was in my role, significant steps have been made to move to a more preventative model, including the work that has been done on urgent care pathways and the hospital at home service, for example.”
“The then Cabinet Secretary for Health and Sport, Shona Robison, said: “I am committed to taking forward our health and social care agenda in the context of public sector improvement and against the four pillars of public sector reform in our response to the Christie report”, those being “prevention; integration at a local level; workforce development; and a focus on performance, with outcomes- based targets.”—[Official Report, 7 June 2016; c 9.] Scotland’s poor health record and low healthy life expectancy are no secret. In fact, the solutions have been in front of us for decades. How will the cabinet secretary quantify preventative spent and measure success? Considering that the documents have apparently taken years to come together, when does he expect the changes in them to be achieved?”
“I thank the cabinet secretary for early sight of his statement. Having read the statement, my overriding feeling is: what a breakthrough. Who would have thought that investing in preventative health and digital solutions would benefit the NHS and the health of our nation? Rarely have so many statements of the blindingly obvious been contained in a single Scottish Government publication. In my first debate, on 7 June 2016, I championed preventative spend and investment in digital solutions.”
“My door is always open to ideas about how we can deliver that change in a way that is as inclusive and as effective as possible, benefiting the entire Scottish population, including staff who deliver services across our health and social care system. I will conclude by referring to the point in the motion about colleagues’ concerns about the future medical workforce project that is due to report at the end of the year. Once the project has reported, I will invite colleagues to participate in a cross-party panel to discuss its findings and to consider the onward reforms that are required, building consensus and showing our collective commitment to our NHS doctors in delivering real change and renewal. 15:52”
“More of the care that they deliver will be in the community, with hospitals’ capacity targeted towards those with the most complex needs. The service renewal framework will provide a blueprint for delivery and mark a step change in the way that we deliver healthcare. Those frameworks represent a comprehensive package of reform, but they will be successful only if they have the support of Parliament. I therefore want to use today’s debate as an opportunity to restate my absolute commitment to working with colleagues across the chamber in the coming period to deliver the change that I believe we all want to see. Through collaboration and consensus, I believe that we can set the system on the path for success.”
“I had a look at the app that is being deployed in South Lanarkshire, and all that can be accessed is dermatology. We are miles behind. What is preventing the Scottish Government from adopting technology in the first place? Neil Gray: That is the first iteration—the first pilot part—of the NHS digital front door, which is operating not only in South Lanarkshire but in the entirety of NHS Lanarkshire. We will build a product that goes beyond what Mr Whittle suggested, for the reasons that he has outlined, which I agree with. I believe that the framework can and will support staff to work more flexibly and collaboratively across teams by enabling better access to the right digital tools that make their lives easier and the healthcare that they deliver better.”
“The first of those, prevention, involves focusing on early intervention and reducing the burden of disease. The second principle, people, involves designing care around individuals, not systems. The third principle, community, involves shifting more care closer to home. The fourth principle, population, involves planning services based on real population needs rather than organisational boundaries. The fifth principle, digital, involves using technology to improve access, co-ordination and outcomes. Brian Whittle: Will the cabinet secretary give way? Neil Gray: If I still have time, Presiding Officer? The Deputy Presiding Officer: Brian Whittle, briefly. Brian Whittle: I am grateful to the cabinet secretary for giving way. I know that he wants to deploy technology in the way that it can be, but the reality is that it is not happening.”
“The discussions are on-going. Several colleagues picked up on the fact that Scotland faces serious and growing health challenges. More people are expected to be affected by disease in years to come, and too many lives are still being cut short by poverty and inequality. Addressing those challenges is not solely the task of people who work in acute and community health settings. Instead, we need to shift our focus from treating illness to preventing it. By taking that approach, we can reduce the burden on our healthcare system and the staff who operate it. Alongside the population health framework, we will publish the service renewal framework, which is our long-term plan to reshape health and social care services. The framework is shaped by five key principles.”
“When I talk about renewal, I am not talking only about changes in systems or plans for the benefit of patients, I am clear that the changes must also deliver for staff. Jackie Baillie: What can the cabinet secretary do for junior doctors this August? They face not having jobs this August. Neil Gray: Funding is in place for local boards to make employment decisions. That is for them to do, and we will continue to work with the BMA on those matters. Indeed, I will meet the BMA resident doctors committee very soon to discuss some of those issues. In relation to the points that Sandesh Gulhane made, I can tell members that I met the Royal College of General Practitioners, and I will meet the BMA general practice committee tomorrow morning. I met the consultants committee and representatives of the speciality doctors committee today.”
“The greatest gift that we can all give is to bring about those service improvements and reductions in waiting times, and—I say this candidly—to reduce the potential for moral injury that is presented by the inability of our staff to respond to situations in the way that they would wish, to which colleagues have referred. We owe it to them to drive improvements and set the system up for future success, and I guarantee to colleagues that that is my top priority. In my opening remarks, I also touched on our plans to bring forward our population health and service renewal frameworks in the very near future. The speeches that I have heard today have reinforced the importance of making the changes that will be enacted as a result of those frameworks.”
“In my opening remarks, I did not have time to reflect on the immediate work that we are doing to improve the performance of NHS Scotland through the operational improvement plan and the investment that we are making to reduce waiting times and accident and emergency waits, and to increase access to the NHS. Those improvements will undoubtedly benefit people who are in need of care and treatment, but—crucially, in the context of this debate—they will, ultimately, alleviate the pressure on and support the wellbeing of members of our NHS Scotland workforce, who are the key focus of today’s discussion.”
“The SNP Government is not a serious Government. It has no idea how to deal with the issues that we are debating today, and while it remains in office, the health of our nation and the support that our NHS needs will continue to slide. 15:46 Neil Gray: I thank colleagues across the chamber for participating in the debate. I am grateful to everyone for their contributions. The way in which the debate has been conducted has been disappointing at times, but I want to close in a more consensual manner. As the Presiding Officer knows, I like to bring people together.”
“Apparently, the Minister for Social Care, Mental Wellbeing and Sport and her team did not understand the term “technology-agnostic interoperable solution”, so they decided to google the meaning of it—it appears that that is how the Scottish Government now decides policy—and were confused by the answer. Therefore, I thought that I would google the term. Here is what I got: “A technology-agnostic interoperable solution is one that can work with various technologies and systems, allowing for flexibility and integration without being tied to a specific vendor or platform. This approach promotes interoperability, scalability and future-proofing, enabling businesses to adapt to evolving needs without being constrained by a single technology or vendor.” If I was cynical, I would suggest that the minister was trying to avoid scrutiny.”
“Scotland’s rurality is one of them, but the poor health of our nation is the huge elephant in the room. As a result of ill health, we have high levels of economically inactive people, and there has been an alarming rise in poor mental health. If we focus only on increasing the head count, we will forever need to increase the head count. Preventative health has been the poor relation in that equation. The deployment of a technology-agnostic interoperable solution is absolutely essential if we are serious about bringing our NHS into the 21st century.”
“Neil Gray: Will the member give way? Brian Whittle: I will, briefly. Neil Gray: I refer Mr Whittle to the nursing and midwifery task force, which is looking to implement alternative routes into nursing and midwifery training. The Deputy Presiding Officer: I will give you that time back, Mr Whittle. Brian Whittle: I appreciate that. That brings me to the way to tackle the pressures that have been put on our healthcare system and, specifically, our GPs and nurses. There are two elements to dealing with the pressure on hospitals and GP surgeries: increasing the head count and, crucially, reducing need. However, all I have ever heard the Scottish Government talk about is increasing the head count and the fact that we have record numbers of staff per head of population. There are reasons for that need.”
“Both positions cannot be true, and the truth is that the Scottish Government’s response is akin to trying to fill the proverbial bucket with holes in it. Staff retention should be tackled first: recognising the issues that our GPs and nursing staff face, and creating an environment that encourages them to stay and, crucially, encourages more people to take up those positions. That is an approach that I have pushed ever since I arrived in the Parliament. Incidentally, something that the Scottish Government could do right now is reintroduce nursing and midwifery apprenticeships as an alternative route into the profession. More than 40 per cent of midwifery students are over the age of 30 and have probably had to give up another career to pursue that one. We should be making it easier for them to access it.”
“Of course, the situation has got progressively worse than that: the Scottish Government is very keen to count the number of GPs, as opposed to the full-time equivalent number, which paints a really different picture of primary care. The same applies to our stretched nursing and midwifery departments. “Burnout” is a word that is used increasingly often, as more and more of our NHS staff are either retiring early or off sick with stress. The Scottish Government often puffs out its chest and tells us about the record investment in the NHS and the record numbers of nurses, doctors, midwives and consultants. However, when we challenge that with the reality of record waiting lists and vacancy numbers, and continually growing ill health, we suddenly hear the words “Westminster”, “Brexit” and “pandemic”—anything other than “SNP responsibility”.”
“In relation to workforce planning, I feel that we are stuck in a time loop. It seems as if, for all the time that I have been in the Parliament, and as Monica Lennon pointed out, we have been asking for some kind of credible workforce plan—and by credible, I mean one that actually addresses the need. Back in 2018, the then Cabinet Secretary for Health and Sport, Jeane Freeman, decided that the Scottish Government would train an extra 800 GPs over a 10-year period, to address a shortfall of 860 in the number of GPs—the mathematicians among us may already see the flaw in that plan. However, as Audit Scotland pointed out, by the time those 800 new GPs are trained, some of the existing workforce will have retired—who could have foreseen that?—leaving an estimated deficit of 664 GPs in 2027.”
“I move motion S6M-17869.2, to leave out from “recognises” to end and insert: “acknowledges the challenges facing the NHS and the critical contribution of its workforce; thanks the dedicated NHS staff for their hard work and professionalism in times of enormous pressure; notes with concern that too many people are waiting too long for treatment and welcomes, therefore, additional funding to reduce patient waits and deliver 150,000 extra appointments and procedures in 2025; acknowledges the challenges in primary care and community health settings, where too many people face difficulties making a GP appointment; recognises the calls for greater workforce planning to account for the changing landscape of delivering healthcare, building on historically high levels of staffing; notes the Scottish Government’s commitment to develop future workforce planning in response to the forthcoming population health and service renewal frameworks; believes that it is important that this work is informed by doctors working in the NHS through the Future Medical Workforce project, which will report on the planned dialogue, alongside an analysis of workforce demand and supply, by the end of 2025, while continuing with implementation of the Nursing and Midwifery Taskforce over the course of the year, and regrets deeply the UK Labour administration’s reckless decision to close the health and care worker visa to adult social care, which will lead to acute workforce challenges and the closure of services, and have a devastating impact on both those receiving care and staff providing care.” 15:07”
“The population health framework and the health and social care service renewal framework, which will be published soon, will build on those initial steps, setting the trajectory for the years ahead and demonstrating our ambition for the NHS in Scotland. I look forward to collaborating with the workforce as we seek to implement those new ways of working for the benefit of our patients and staff across the country.”
“Therefore, I must take this opportunity to highlight my significant and grave concern about the recently published UK Government white paper on immigration and the Labour Government’s intention to close the social care visa to new applications from abroad. The implications of that will be catastrophic for our social care sector and will undoubtedly have an impact on the entire system. The Deputy Presiding Officer: Cabinet secretary, I have been generous with your time, but you need to conclude. Neil Gray: A vast amount of work is under way, both from a workforce perspective and from a reform and renewal perspective.”
“In order to do that work well, the process cannot be rushed. That is why the report on that conversation will be published by the end of this year, alongside our assessment of the demand for medical services and the possible future supply of the medical workforce. Consultation on any future policy changes will also need to be informed by the outcomes of NHS England’s review of postgraduate training, which will have an impact, as there are benefits to all four nations if some of our systems and processes are developed in lockstep. That consultation will take place in 2026. Even with continued effort and investment to grow and support our NHS Scotland workforce, the system can function effectively only if it operates as part of an integrated health and social care system.”
“We want to ensure that the number of people who come through training is married to the number of positions that are available on a wider geographical basis, and that we have staff in the areas where we need them in order to respond to patients’ needs across the country. The work that is under way to consider the future needs of the medical workforce will consider questions such as what the role of a doctor will be, what will look different for them in the way that they deliver care and, importantly, what steps we need to take now in order to deliver against that. The project has been welcomed by doctors at all stages of their careers, as well as by NHS employers, the royal colleges and the British Medical Association. Listening and dialogue will be key, and all doctors will have an opportunity to contribute their views.”
“Will the cabinet secretary give way? Neil Gray: Would I be able to get the time back, Presiding Officer? The Deputy Presiding Officer: There is very limited time. Neil Gray: I give way briefly. Brian Whittle: I appreciate the cabinet secretary giving way, because I have a genuine question. When my daughter qualified as a midwife, there were 10 times as many applications as there were places. Now, midwifery places at universities are going through the clearing house. Does that cause the Government any concern? Neil Gray: I recognise that there are areas in our health service that are particularly attractive, such as paramedicine, midwifery and paediatric nursing.”
“To ask the Scottish Government what assessment it has made of any economic implications of the Scottish Fiscal Commission’s latest forecasts and the potential impact of rising public health costs on businesses across Scotland. (S6O-04775)”
“As her husband Campbell wrote, “At your time of greatest need, they robbed you of the one thing you needed most—the unconditional love of your family and friends.” This bill will make sure that no one else will ever again suffer the trauma and harm that were experienced by Anne, by her loved ones and by so many families across the country during lockdown. I urge members to support the bill.”
“We have worked tirelessly to balance the concerns that were raised in Parliament with the urgent needs of the people in Scotland. This legislation reflects our shared commitment to strengthening social care, social work and community health. People who access social care, their families and everyone who supports them cannot wait any longer for the changes that they urgently need. That shared commitment is no better embodied than by Anne’s law. For almost two years, at the end of her life, Anne Duke was denied the companionship and the touch of the people whom she loved.”