Lim Kim San
Singapore
“Mr Speaker, Sir, the Public Utilities Board's investigation shows that the residents of Pulau Ubin are unwilling to pay higher prices due to higher operating costs, thereby causing the contractor to cease operations. It was explained to the hon.”
“Sir, I understand the Member's point, but I hope he realises that six months after serving notice, the pigs will still be defecating freely which will continue to contaminate our water.”
“Sir, if anyone should get sick from coming into contact with contaminated water, I hope they will accept sympathy from the Member for Jurong. But we cannot evaluate the danger to human life in terms of dollars and cents. The farmers have known for several years now that pig-rearing will have to be phased out of the catchment areas.”
“Sir, all I can say is that we are still looking into the feasibility of siting a coal-fired station on one of the islands to reduce the pollution problem. But no definite decision has yet been made. We have several offers to do a feasibility study on it, and we are looking closely into the matter. 5.45 p.m.”
“Merit Scholar- Merit Courses ships Bursaries Medicine/ Dentistry 44 41 Engineering 28 22 Architecture/ Building/ Estate Management 6 18 Accountancy/ Business Administration 9 14 Arts/Social Science/Law 32 40 Science (includes Pharmacy) 82 102 ___ ___ 201 237 === === Sir, I believe the hon.”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, air pollution is being monitored daily by the Anti- Pollution Unit, and we find that the air pollution in industrial estates and the urban areas is normally higher than in the residential or rural areas.”
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“The use of charcoal and wood for cooking is also prohibited. We know of one instance where a goldsmith made illegal use of his flat and he probably used an oxy-acetylene torch to design his jewellery. There was an explosion but the fire did not spread. Many casualties in a fire are due to the victims being overcome by smoke, But staircases in HDB flats are made of concrete and will not burn. These staircases are not enclosed. They are open and smoke cannot build up to impede access. In slab blocks, several concrete staircases with access to common corridors which are fully ventilated are provided. So the chances of being overcome by smoke in a HDB flat in a fire are almost negligible. The flats are designed in such a way that fire occurring in one apartment is unlikely to spread to another. Our experience has shown that the design to contain fire is successful for fire occurring in 2, 3, 4 and 5-room flats had not spread after burning up the contents within the flat itself. However, in 1 --room flats, fires have spread from one flat to the adjoining flat through open BRC wire-mesh below the ceiling. Hon. Members will remember that complaints were made against sealing these openings in the present debate and the reply given was that they have to be closed in order to prevent fire from spreading. It is not fortuitous that there have been no raging infernos in HDB flats. It is by design that the Fire God has not been given the opportunity to vent his fury there. The HDB is fully aware of the danger of fire occurring in high-rise buildings and has minimised fire risks in the design and structure of its flats. There is a relatively lower fire risk in HDB flats and the anti-fire measures mentioned by the Member for Kim Seng need not be installed.”
“Sir, I am glad to have this opportunity to correct any misconception that may arise out of the observations made by the Member for Kim Seng yesterday with regard to fire safety precautionary measures in Housing Board flats. In this House, the Housing and Development Board has been accused of many things, some of them deserved, most of them undeserved. The implication made that the Housing and Development Board does not provide minimum fire safety precautions or does not incorporate safeguards against fire in HDB flats is most undeserved and unfair. The HDB has made a thorough study of the fire prevention aspects in the design of its flats and as a result the flats are designed and built so that there is a relatively lower fire risk, Fires in homes are mostly caused by short-circuit of old electrical wires concealed in ceilings; often they start in the kitchen. There are no concealed ceilings in HDB flats and all wirings are exposed enabling easy identification of faults and rectification. Any electrical point to be installed and any renovation or change in design of the flat have to be approved by the Board. The wirings are renewed at intervals of 15 to 20 years. There is therefore less chance of fire occurring due to old wiring or short circuits inside the ceiling. HDB flats are built of reinforced concrete, bricks or hollow bricks which are also non-combustible. The risk of a major fire is greater in hotels, departmental stores, commercial buildings and store houses where combustible materials are likely to be stored. The combustible material in HDB flats are limited to a small amount of furniture and furnishings. The HDB is very strict in ensuring that commercial and industrial activities are not carried out in its flats.”
“Sir, we have taken statistics. So we have staggered the bus stops. Now there are no more queues. Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, in view of the Hon. Minister's explanation, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.”
“Sir, I can assure the Member for Sembawang that if we could manufacture the telephone equipment here, we would have done so. We could not get anyone interested enough to join in the manufacture of telephone switching equipment, and therefore the waiting time needed is still five years. As regards the rural areas, the request is for new buses for rural residents. I think there have been new buses for rural residents but, taking into consideration the nature of rural roads, they become old buses in no time. Much as we like to, we cannot be changing buses every six months. I think the Member is probably right that there are pirate taxis around. I will alert the ROV.”
“They have made use of overhead lines and that is how we catch up with the demand. But one must remember that lines alone are not enough. There must also be the switching equipment to go with it. Anyway, for the information of Members, we have tried to make use of all the facilities available. For example. Telok Blangah New Town is now being served by the North Exchange sited at the Thomson Road/Whitley Road junction. Since there is excess capacity there, we are tapping it for use in Telok Blangah New Town. Nevertheless, the demand for telephones in Telok Blangah is so great that tapping the excess in this Exchange which is not meant to serve Telok Blangah is still not sufficient. It will be some more time before the equipment is available. However, the Member for Telok Blangah may be pleased to hear that next month we are putting into service 10,000 pieces of switching equipment. For the Ang Mo Kio New Town, the new Exchange building is scheduled to be completed in October 1976. The necessary switching equipment will follow immediately, and by October 1977 all the residents in Ang Mo Kio New Town will get their telephones. One way in which we can reduce waiting time would be for intending subscribers to come together and share a party line. But quite a number of them are quite choosey. An offer of a party line has been made but quite a number of them have turned it down. If they are really in urgent need, they can always share a party line, that is, if service is available. 7.00 p.m.”
“Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, action has been taken to stop this dangerous practice. Since the Minister of State has already replied to questions on the MRT. I would like to take up the point mentioned by the Member for Anson regarding the long wait for telephones. Earlier in the day n this House, when the question was raised about the waiting time for telephones, the reply given by the Senior Minister of State was that we were making every attempt to reduce the percentage of applicants who have to wait for telephones. Here again, it is not a question of bad planning. When we draw up a development plan for the future, estimates are usually made. We are very wise men indeed if we can be perfect in our est mates. It has been shown that the demand for telephones has risen beyond expectations. In other words, our experts estimated that there would be a demand-increase of 15% per year, but the actual demand has gone up by 20%. There is also the question of backlog. I think credit must be given to the Housing Board for having built houses very quickly, much quicker than we can install the telephones. They are building flats all over Singapore now. The time-lag for installing telephone equipment is five years. If we draw up the plans today and then place our orders, it will be five years later before we can actually get the equipment. That is one of the reasons why we have to make these estimates. Therefore, given the time-lag of five years and with the Housing Board putting up flats in less than two years in some places, there is this discrepancy. But whatever it is, we are doing our best to catch up with the backlog. In fact, the TAS have been asked whether it is possible to make use of overhead lines because it is faster to install telephones this way.”
“If I may, Sir, with the indulgence of Members, call upon my Senior Minister of State, who is very closely associated with the MRT, to reply to Members' comments.”
“He has also suggested that we should revise the commencement of the ALS from 7.30 am, to 8.00 am. This question has been looked into by the experts. His reason is that this is to allow parents to send their children to schools in the CBD. He also says that in his experience he has not seen any traffic jam during this period. I say that if we were to extend the time to 8.00 am. He will experience a traffic jam. At the moment there is no congestion because the ALS begins at 7.30 am. There are very few schools within the CBD. If the parents want their children to go to school by car, there is no reason why they cannot form car pools. The Methodist Girls' School has formed car pools quite successfully. Perhaps their children could take buses because, as he has said, bus services have improved. He has also said that perhaps the timing of the imposition of the restriction is not quite right. That is a matter of opinion. However, in the same breath he has also suggested that it is time we imposed restriction on entry into Jurong. Here again it is a matter of opinion. We think this is not the time yet. We are in charge of the ALS and we have enforced it in the City area. If the Member were in change he would probably enforce it in Jurong too. But we are studying the problem closely. I agree with him that restricting entry of private cars into Jurong may help to clear the congestion around the periphery of Jurong Town. Anyway we should wait until the Pan-Island Express Way is completed before we go any further into this. Members may be wondering why I have not touched on the MRT and give some information on the questions which have been asked.”
“If they are able to do this, we would have seen an increase in the number of taxis applying for the ALS licences. In actual fact, there has been a decrease in the sale of ALS licences. Perhaps taxis drivers might be able to get away with this in the beginning. But ultimately the public would get wiser. Anyway, we have a device whereby the time of purchase of the ALS licence by taxi drivers is indicated on the disc. If a passenger is observant, he will notice this and should not pay for it once the taxi driver has recovered his payment for the licence from his previous passenger. He need not pay for it. The Enforcement Officers are going round to see that cheating of this nature does not take place. If a taxi driver is found to have severally charged passengers for the ALS entry fee, action will be taken against him. 6.50 p.m. [Mr Deputy Speaker in the Chair] The Member for Kallang has suggested that the Government should participate in the equity holding of the SBS. We are now considering the question of workers participating in the equity holding of the SBS. It is too early in the day for me to make any announcement. But we are seriously considering whether it is advisable to allow the workers to participate in this, and ultimately Government's participation too. As regards his suggestion that revenue from the increase in road taxes and registration fees should go towards the development of the MRT. I can only say that the increase is negligible. The MRT will cost not millions but billions of dollars. But he is correct in saying that the purpose of the increase in the ALS fee and the other fees is not to raise revenue but to discourage people from owning cars, thus preventing our roads from being choked by too heavy traffic, thereby hindering our economic progress.”
“Anyway, arising from this experience, the SBS will probably put up their own bus guide. The suggestion made by the Member for Kim Seng about posting information on bus routes at bus stops will be taken into consideration. I will forward the suggestion to the SBS. 6.45 p.m. The Member for Kim Seng did suggest that in order to ensure better road discipline there should be heavier penalties. Heavier penalties have been imposed. More details will be given by my Minister of State during, the debate on the ROV. As Members know, and as indicated by the Member for Kim Seng, penalties alone will not be sufficient to raise the standard of courtesy among motorists. There is also the question of education. As regards his suggestion that ambulances, Police cars and fire engines should have the right of way. I entirely agree with him. Here, again, it is a question of social conscience, and consideration by the motorists, the cyclists, the scootenists, and other road users for each other's welfare and for that of the community. It will come about through education and not through sheer enforcement of penalties. Anyway, there is a saying that a journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step. We have taken the first step to warn motorists that these emergency vehicles should have the right of way. I hope that in time to come motorists will have enough consideration for their fellowmen to decide what is right and what is wrong, and no matter how much they are in a hurry, they will give way to these emergency vehicles. To come to the Area Licensing Scheme, I do not agree with the Member for Kim Seng when he said that taxi drivers benefit from the ALS. Some of the black sheep do benefit, however. He says that they charge every passenger the ALS fee of $4.”
“Here again, the improvement has been due in some measure to the secondment of an SAF team to help maintain the buses. To maintain buses, we must have spare parts. The costs of spare parts have also gone up. So it is not true to say that the 5-cent and 10-cent bus fares have disappeared because the bus companies are amalgamated and there is a monopoly. There are other irresistible factors at work. One of the problems of running an efficient bus service is to provide sufficient buses during peak hours. But what do you do with these buses during the off-peak hours? The buses will lie idle and the crew also will be idle and they have to be paid nevertheless. So one way of solving this problem is to allow the Scheme B buses and also the City Shuttle Service to continue. In this way, I think we are maximising the use of all available buses, because during part of the peak hours in the mornings and evenings the Scheme B buses are usually quite free. During the hours when they are not engaged in transporting children to school, they help in transporting other commuters. In this way, they help to take the load off the SBS during peak hours, and I think it is necessary that they should be allowed to carry on for some time. The question of the bus guide is a most unfortunate one. The bus guide was put up as a commercial proposition by a private firm which obtained information about the bus schedules and other relevant information from the Singapore Bus Service Ltd. As a commercial venture, of course, they canvassed for advertisements. Unfortunately, in finalising the format of the bus guide, they did not consult the SBS. As a result they produced a very poor bus guide and probably lost money in the process.”
“One of the indicators to show that there has been great improvement in the bus service and the way the employees discharge their duty is the decrease in the number of complaints received. In fact, complaints have dropped by as much as 75%. I now come to the observation made by the Member for Anson. He mentioned about the long wait for refuelling of buses. I know it is very irritating for commuters to have to wait in the bus while it is being refuelled. Action is being taken to ensure that every bus, before leaving the depot in the morning, is fuelled the night before. But it is essential for every bus to be refuelled at least once a day because it travels on an average of 250 miles, and it does not carry a tank large enough to hold sufficient diesel oil for a journey of 250 miles. Anyway, buses are refuelled as far as possible during the off-peak hours. More refuelling terminals are being set up, and in certain places two oil pumps are in use. This problem is being looked into, and I think there will be a great improvement soon. Like the Member for Anson, I deplore the end of the era of the 5-cent and 10-cent char kway teow and mee goreng with eggs, in the same way that he deplores the end of the 5-cent and 10-cent bus fares. One must remember that there are factors which make it impossible to retain the old rates of fares and prices. Hon. Members certainly are aware of inflation and may recollect that the price of diesel oil has gone up. The SBS has to pay higher wages and also the NWC wage recommendations. These are the factors which increase costs. The Member has mentioned about the delay in schedules. SBS has more buses on the road because of better maintenance of the buses.”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, it is very nice to receive congratulations from Hon. Members. My only regret is that my predecessor is not here. Otherwise, he would be most pleased at the progress that has been made, a greater part of which was achieved during his time. I wholeheartedly agree that there has been tremendous improvement in the public transport system and this, in a great measure, is due to the cooperation of the workers and also to the secondment of a Government Team of Officials to the SBS. It would be appropriate here to mention some of the measures which the Management Team has taken to improve the bus service and also to improve the standard of discipline among the workers. One of the things they did was to keep personal files of employees, and they drew up a code of conduct and disciplinary procedures. Disciplinary action is also being centrally dealt with by headquarters. In this way, they were able to spot the black sheep among the employees and remove them for the good of the company. Drivers, conductors and other persons who have been recruited are given training prior to putting them on the job. They were told of their duties and responsibilities and they were also told to provide service with courtesy and with a smile. Of course, some do not perform satisfactorily and, when spotted, are sent back for refresher courses. There has also been a strengthening of the Enforcement Section. The duties of the Enforcement Section are, first, to ensure that bus fares are properly collected, buses run on time, and to catch drivers who speed. Based on their reports. disciplinary action is taken.”
“May I correct the Member? I did not say that priority will be given to application for a transfer. I said that consideration will be given.”
“Sir, I beg to report that the Committee of Supply has made further progress on the Main and Development Estimates for the financial year 1st April. 1976 to 31st March, 1977, and ask leave to sit again tomorrow.”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, I am reminded of the crooked man who lived in a crooked house, all in a crooked way. If we are going to permit that kind of a building here, then there is no point in setting up the Building Control Division, Neither should we have architects. A building is put up not only for the purposes of dwelling but also for its aesthetic effect. The landscape should not be marred by a crooked house, a leaning house or a leaning Tower of Pisa. That is why we have the Building Control Division.”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, the building plan from the Building Control Division has been drawn up by a professional architect. I do not think there is anything wrong with the eaves protruding three feet out. If the Member were to think seriously, allowing the eaves to protrude eight feet out from a house which is about 10 feet high, the eaves would reach the floor! No doubt it will prevent the rain from coming in, but it will also prevent the light from coming in, So the plan is drawn up proportionally and is architecturally correct. I think it fills all the needs. If the eaves should protrude eight feet out without any support, it also constitutes a danger to the occupants. I think there is a very good reason why an extension to eight feet is not allowed. Farmers are farmers, they are not architects. As regards whether the toilet facilities should be placed outside or inside the house, I do not know whether it is fair to place your toilet nearer to one's neighbour or to oneself. If everyone wants to have his toilet nearer to his neighbour and not next to his own kitchen, then we will be back to square one.”
“We will give it very sympathetic consideration.”
“It is a question of choice. Do you want to have community centres, or do you want to have car parks? There were people who shouted for car parks, and so community centres have been turned into car parks. You can have one but not both. As regards rent, I think it is quite fair for the Housing Board to base it on the latest rent because the area may have flourished. Therefore, it is quite fair that the rent is based on the latest rates.”
“However, for those who were given less than a year's notice, we are making an exception. We are compensating them with the cost of replacing the poles. But I do not believe that within the short period they had spent so much money. It is not correct to say that the compensation is unfair and that it should be enhanced. First and foremost, I do not think he is right in saying that it is unfair. Secondly, enhancing the compensation would mean that we have to enhance the compensation for other resettlement cases elsewhere. Here, I have got to say, "No" to him with a smile.”
“Another reason why applicants for transfers have to wait longer is that 3-room flats are very popular. Wherever possible, we allot such flats to those who have already been on the waiting list, Those who have not yet had the advantage of staying in Housing Board flats should be given first preference. After that we will then look into cases for transfers. With regard to the request for abolition of the tender system, I have replied to that earlier. Now, with regard to the question raised by the Member for Changi. Let me say that licences for kelongs are given on the understanding that they are on Temporary Occupation Licences, and may be revoked at any time. This is the understanding. I find it very difficult to believe what the Member has said. He may be quite naive to believe what he has been told. He said that on the 29th of January ` the kelong operators were told. "Yes, go on. You can repair your kelong." A fortnight later in February they were told, "You stop. We are acquiring it." He said that during that fortnight they had spent $20,000 repairing the kelongs, which finally went into the sea. They must be very efficient. If they are that efficient, we do not have to import fish. I do not think they have really spent $20,000 within a fortnight. He mentioned that 25 kelongs are affected but quite a number of them have already had their licences revoked since 1974. Yet they are still there. They know very well since 1974 that they have to leave. I believe some Members know that these kelongs are not genuine kelongs. They are not built to catch fish. They are there for something else. I have no knowledge of what they are there for. Some Members may wish to enlighten me on that. But as I have said, they are not there for fishing.”
“They can find jobs there. If they want they can become cleaners for the Housing and Development Board. The Member can give their names to me. The Member for Anson talks about the digging of roads all over Singapore. We have to dig roads because the Housing Board is building so many houses and there are also many factories coming up. With economic progress we have to lay pipes for water and cables for electricity, sewerage and telephones. All these are different services, requiring different techniques in laying the systems. This problem has preoccupied not only me but also my colleague. the Minister for the Environment, for the last ten years. There is a coordinating committee to see that a road is not dug up soon after one service has been laid. But the peculiarities of the different services are such that we find it difficult to coordinate the work. There is one telephone to every six persons in Singapore. That is quite a high rate. Almost everyone in Singapore has a water closet now. All this means that if we do not dig up the roads to lay the services, we cannot have them. Of course, the road should, be dug as quickly as possible and there should be coordination. I can assure Members that there is a committee sitting, with the Director of Public Works presiding, and from time to time the Minister in charge will sit in to improve coordination. We have done all we can to ensure that there is as little hindrance as possible to motorists and, at the same time, to ensure that economic development is not hindered. Let me now come to the Member for Sembawang. We do allow HDB residents to move into larger flats. But there are certain priorities, such as for medical reasons or other extenuating circumstances. Wanting to get married is probably not one of the priorities.”
“They have not yet been resettled. Some of them may have been resettled.”
“Let me now come to the Member for Punggol. I have said something about resettlement and our attempt to place the affected people on some jobs. If a person is really willing to work, as my colleague, the Minister for Labour, has just said. "See the Employment Service." There are lots of jobs available. We have issued thousands of work permits. And yet the Member for Punggol has said it is difficult td find a job. We will find jobs for them in the housing estates which we are building in Punggol. Mr Ng Kah Ting: In the interim, what can they do?”
“These are good suggestions and will be looked into. It is not beyond our power and means to persuade the nurses to do so. Now, the problem of single people. The Member for Ulu Pandan must realise that priority should be given to applicants who have families living with them. We have a long waiting list of 90,000 applicants. But for the young single men and women with initiative, they should have no problem finding accommodation because we allow them to rent rooms from tenants or owners of Housing Board flats. They will find it easier to find such rooms now because, as I have said, the new flats are bigger. I think that should take care of their problem. We are not going to build Housing Board flats solely for single persons. I do not know whether or not they will create more mischief! With regard to finding jobs in housing estates, there are lots of vacancies for sweepers and cleaners in the Housing Board estates. If flat tenants find it difficult to get work, they can apply to the Housing Board for such jobs. There is no problem as the HDB is finding it difficult to fill these posts. In fact, we are encouraging people who live in the estates to take up these jobs. With regard to community halls to complement the community centres, this question is being looked into. It is our policy to build community halls to complement the community centres in all new Housing Board estates. The Member for Ulu Pandan is most fortunate in that in his constituency he has 17 fields and open playgrounds. Yet he still wants one more. If all Members agree. I will give him one. An Hon. Member: There are 65 constituencies.”
“The blocks are quite close together and I feel claustrophobic. But in our experience we find that the children can easily adapt themselves. They play along the corridors. In the new housing estates the flats are twice the size of the old ones. So there is ample space. The children can play along the corridors among themselves. As they grow older they would go to the playground. But, of course, there is a need to provide more playing fields and more open space for the children. We will try to provide that as much as we can with our limited space. With regard to the old people. I have great sympathy for them because the old `family tradition is breaking down. We find that more and more old people are being left on their own, The Housing Board has tried renting its flats to the private Homes for the Aged so that they can bring the old people to live there. I have also asked whether it is possible to make use of the ground floor (which the Member has suggested should be turned into a kindergarten) to house these old people. If the old people have young members of their family living in the same estate, we will give them priority to be housed there. This matter is being looked into. As I have said, there is a pilot plan to rent some of the flats to Homes for the Aged. We have also gone a step further. If the old people so wish, we will try and accommodate them in places near their relatives or families, so that they can baby-sit their grandchildren. They can be a help to working mothers in looking after their children. As regards nurses, I think my colleague, the Minister for Health, would be very pleased if the Member can persuade retired nurses to help look after the sick, the aged and the children in the housing estates.”
“This is one aspect of the Housing Board which very few people have looked into and are aware of or want to be aware of. To the average Singaporean, a landlord is a rich man. He owns houses and he rents them out. He collects rent and he is therefore a rich man. The Housing and Development Board being the biggest landlord in Singapore should, therefore, be the richest organisation in Singapore. And yet it has to get a subsidy of $46 million from the Government. Why? Because we are subsidising public housing. So I hope Members will note that. Though the HDB is the biggest landlord in Singapore, it is not making money. The Housing Board is being subsidised to the tune of $46 million for this year: it was subsidised $36 million last year As we build more houses, the subsidy will grow. The Member for Ulu Pandan says that the tenants are strangers when they move into Housing Board flats. Even if we should move 500 people into a kampong, they will be strangers. So it makes no difference. Whether or not he is going to be lonely, and whether or not he can make friends, depends upon his character. If he is an extrovert he makes friends easily. But if he is an introvert, he is going to be lonely whether in a kampong or in a Housing Board flat. As from a life of growing vegetables to a life in Housing Board fIat, we have gone into a new environment. We have progressed and so some of the past practices have to be left behind. It is nice to be nostalgic about this. But I think we have to adapt ourselves and I am very glad that he has pinpointed some of the problems ., the problem of loneliness, the problem facing bachelors and the problem of young children. 5.00 p.m. Children living in high-rise flats do pose a problem. I have visited a number of these high-rise flats.”
“Street hawkers are given priority in the allocation of stalls in hawker centres and markets as this will improve the environment and make it easier to enforce clean personal habits among those who handle and sell food, Of course, consideration can be given to those who find it difficult to earn a living because of age or circumstances. But consideration will only be given to those over 40 years of age for a market pitch or a hawker licence. The Member also raised the query about those who are resettled from Ang Mo Kio to Sin Ming Road. He wants to know whether, when the time comes, they will be allowed to return to Ang Mo Kio. I think this is very speculative, By the time they have settled in Sin Ming Road for a few years they may not want to return to Ang Mo Kio. And by that time if they still think of returning, thereby displacing their roots again the matter can then be raised. The Member for Ulu Pandan is right. We have moved from the kampong to the city. We have moved from the pondok to high-rise flats, We have made economic progress. We are on the way to being an industrialised country. We are a commercialised city. And in that process, of course, many changes have occurred, one of which is that the Member is not now able to enjoy life sitting under a coconut tree in the moonlight, strumming his guitar or fishing with his toes. Some of the things that we have left behind are good and some are bad, but as the Member says, "There is no looking back". But in entering an industrialised, commercialised and urbanised environment we have new problems, some of which he has stated. In passing, the Member did mention that the Budget estimate for the HDB has gone up compared with 1974-75, the subsidy being $46 million as against $36 million for last year.”
“They are given a Housing Board flat or cash in lieu. In order to solve their employment problem, the Housing Board will be building two rural centres, one in Punggol and the other in Jalan Kayu. These rural centres will be built amidst a farming population so that those who are not bona fide farmers but part-time farmers can find work there if they want to. This is one of the ways to solve the employment problem of ex-farmers. Those people living in attap huts will be given priority in the allocation of Housing Board flats. Shopkeepers will be given priority to tender for shops in Housing Board estates. They will have to pay what we call "a rising rental", that is, during the first year of occupation they pay only 50% of the average rent which a public tenderer pays. For the second year of occupation they pay 10% more and by the sixth year they will be paying the full rent. These are the resettlement terms, and so priority is given to them in certain cases. It all depends on which category of resettled persons they come under. I hope that answers the query by the Member for Serangoon Gardens. As regards licences for hawker centres and markets, we have 32,000 hawkers on the road. We are going to resettle them in hawker centres and markets and they are given first priority. I know, everybody thinks that hawking is very profitable and so wants a hawker licence. So we have to be very careful. We do not allow every Tom, Dick and Harry to be a hawker. Only those who really find it difficult to make a living will be given very careful consideration. It is the Government's policy to move hawkers from the streets into hawker centres and markets.”
“They are not bona fide farmers then. So if they are not bona fide farmers, they are given the choice of either a Housing Board flat or cash in lieu. Some Hon. Members: No I”
“We allow free market forces to play here. Free market fortes determine rentals. This is in reply to the suggestion by the Member for Sembawang that we should abolish the tender system. The system has been working well 90% of those who have tendered for HDB shops have succeeded in making it pay. This is a high percentage of success for any type of business. Achieving 90% success in any undertaking is a sure sign of a successful system. I can find no other system which will ensure a fairer deal. I come now to the points raised by the Member for Serangoon Gardens I think it is time for Members to stop listering to rumours I am not aware that Serangoon Gardens Estate is to be acquired, and do not think it is the policy of the Government to acquire a well laid out estate, then pull the houses down and build Housing Board flats. That is not the policy. Where a housing estate is well laid out and has established itself. I think we will leave it alone With regard to priority for farmers who are resettled from Ang Mo Kio, we can divide resettlement into different categories For instance. "efficient bona fide farmers". A bona fide farmer means a farmer who has been rearing a minimum of 100 pigs or 3,000 head of poultry and is making full economic use of the land. This is a bona fide farmer and if he is efficient he will be able to earn a reasonable income from his 100 pigs or 3.000 head of poultry. And on resettlement he will be given alternative land to farm elsewhere. While listening to the Member for Punggol, I was a bit confused because he says that these poor people were able to live because they were supplementing their income from farming. If their income from farming is only supplementary, they would not be full time or bona fide farmers.”
“Mr Speaker. Sir, let me take the comment of the Member for Toa Payoh first. If he were in this House yesterday he must have heard the exposition given by the Prime Minister in reply to the accusation of discourtesy on the part of public servants, raised by the Member for Katong. So I would not go further into that other than saying that where instances of discourtesy and rudeness can be pinpointed, action will be taken. The Member for Toa Payoh raised several points with regard to the tenancy of shops. He says that shopkeepers do change their trade from time to time and, because of that. HDB officers ask them to either revert to their original trade or to pay a revised rental based on the present standard rental for the trade The rentals and tenders for shops are based on the type of business done. Those who tender for coffee shops and provision shops have to pay high rentals. So if a person has tendered for a bookshop and in time changes it into a coffee shop or provision shop, he is being unfair to those who had tendered a higher rate for a coffee shop or a provision shop. Therefore, the rationale behind the action of the officers is that the tenant either reverts to his original trade or pay the new rental for the type of trade that he is going to engage in. I think this is quite fair. I come now to the accusation of high rentals. Who pays the rental? The public pays the rental. Who tenders? The public tenders. If a businessman tenders, he knows better than you or I what price to pay. They have been quite successful. We made a survey and found that 90% of those who tendered for HDB shops made their business pay. So this is not a rate that is fixed by the HDB. This is a rate fixed by the forces of supply and demand.”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, on a point of order. Some Members have already given notice to speak on specific subheads, but they all seem to be speaking now on this subhead.”
“PARKING PLACES (SURCHARGE) BILL Order for Second Reading read.”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time." While my Ministry has been fairly successful in taking enforcement action against the erection of unauthorised structures and is able to contain such illegal activities, however, there has been an appreciable increase in unauthorised change of use of premises, both within and outside the city area. Many trades and small industries, offices, stores, and workshops have moved into premises which are not to be used for such purposes. This is especially so in the residential areas. Sir, such unauthorised uses invariably affect the amenity and the environmental quality of the area and create nuisance and disturbance to the neighbourhood. On the other hand, change of use of buildings or land is permitted where the proposed activities can be logically and naturally integrated into the prevailing activities of the area. In such cases, the change of use usually results in more intensive usage of the premises and land. Mr Speaker, Sir, the Bill seeks to amend the Planning Act so as to give specific powers to permit the change of use of buildings and land where conditions allow, to grant such permit for a specific period of time, and to impose a development charge which will be set out in subsidiary legislations. It is also intended to intensify enforcement action against all unauthorised changes of use in order to bring such illegal activities under effective control. Sir, I beg to move. Question put, and agreed to. Bill accordingly read a Second time and com mitted to a Committee of the whole House. The House immediately resolved itself into a Committee on the Bill.-[Mr Lim Kim San]. Bill considered in Committee; reported without amendment; read a Third time and passed.”
“of Nature of Offence Convictions Food - labelling 51 Food containing prohibited preservatives 62 Food containing excessive preservatives 55 Food containing artificial sweetening agents without licence 88 Food - adulterated 19 Food containing prohibited colour 36 Food - not of the quality, nature or substance demaned by purchaser 15 Food - unfit for unman consumption 11 Food containing metals 5 Importaion of Filled Milk 1 Food containing mineral oil 10 Food containing excessive arsenic 3 Total 356 REARRANGEMENT OF ORDER OF BUSINESS 2.38 p.m. Resolved, "That the Second Reading of the Parliamentary Pensions (Amendment) Bill be taken after a few other items on the Order Paper have been dealt with." - [Mr E. W. Barker]. LOCAL GOVERNMENT INTEGRATION (AMENDMENT) BILL Order for Second Reading read.”
“Sir, the Food Regulations, 1974, were brought into operation on 1st May, 1974. These Regulations were made under the Sale of Food Act, which came into operation in May, 1973. The Food Regulations, 1974, govern the standards of the food sold in Singapore, while the inspections and prosecutions against offenders are mainly done under the Sale of Food Act. Inspections of food sold, kept or intended for sale are carried out daily by the staff of the Ministry of the Environment. The total number of inspections made under the Sale of Food Act and the Food Regulations, 1974, from May 1973 to February 1975 is 28,219. The details of the inspections made are as follows:- No. of Type Visits (a) Inspection of public markets 2,474 (b) Inspection of private markets 1,973 (c) Inspection of provision shops, supermarkets and other premises 21,866 (d) Inspection of ice-cream factories 1,020 (e) Examination of food as requested by importers and traders 664 (f) Destruction of usound food 70 (g) Investigation of complaints related to food 63 (h) Investigation of food poisoning incidents 89 ------- Total 28,219 ======= Summons action has been taken against offenders for infringing the Sale of Food Act, 1973, and the Regulations made thereunder. From May 1973 to February 1975 there were 356 convictions. The breakdown figures of the offences are as follows:- No.”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, it has been my unfortunate experience during the last few months to have to attend quite a number of funerals. I have always thought that I have a sensitive nose, but I have not come across the smell that has been described. It could be that others have a more sensitive nose than I and the explanation given by the Member for Punggol is probably true. I have asked my officers but they cannot confirm it. However, it is possible that since the soil is loose after a grave is dug, the smell of decomposition might seep through the soil. But it takes a really keen nose to sense it. Anyway, if this is so, we will make further investigations and may insist on a deeper burial in the case of soil of this nature.”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, the Member for Anson has given a poetic description of the graveyard and its surroundings. I am glad to note that in his description there is no mention of his coming across mosquitoes in spite of the fact that he had to make his way through muddy potholes of water. This is because anti-mosquito measures are being actively carried out all the time all over Singapore. Chua Chu Kang cemetery is one of the many places constantly checked for mosquito breeding. This cemetery is 900 acres in extent. Only part of it is developed. Lalang and undergrowth are cleared at four-weekly intervals, that is, once a month. However, there may be occasions when rainfall is heavier than usual, and this will cause them to grow faster than normal. Hence, the burial ceremony mentioned by the Member for Anson must have taken place near an undeveloped piece of land and at a time when clearing of lalang was due. While I can appreciate his very imaginative description of fighting through waist-high lalang and hacking through undergrowth, I must however accept it with a pinch of salt. However,' let me assure the Member for Anson that instructions have been given to my officers to see that the paths to the graves are smooth and clean. Mr Speaker, Sir, graves are not dug six feet deep. They are dug five feet deep, according to regulations. The Superintendent of Cemeteries is there to see that this regulation is observed when the grave diggers do their work. In addition, lime is added to the fill to prevent smell. Perhaps we can take it as a fact that public conveniences for men and women are usually quite a distance away from the burial site. I believe it could be that perhaps someone had to answer the call of nature at about the time he was there.”
“This is the price we have to pay for being in the centre of a very busy trading route. But whatever can be done is being done to prevent pollution of our sea.”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, I cannot reconcile what the Member said just now. On the one hand, he said that on that particular beach "maintenance can be summed up in one word `nil' ". But then he went on to say that "However, I am pleased to say that the grass cutters have kept the grass in that particular area neat", so there is maintenance. The deplorable condition of the beach is because people are irresponsible or careless. They continue to ignore the no-littering signs. Perhaps the Member was there when picnickers may have dirtied the place again immediately after the cleaners have completed cleaning. So I cannot accept the statement that there has been no maintenance. There has been maintenance but no amount of maintenance can prevent what he called "this deplorable condition". This deplorable condition is the result of littering by some people who use it. However, I think the long-term solution lies in educating the public. Until the public change their habits, no amount of litter bins, beach cleansing work and enforcement action can keep our beaches completely free of litter. There is no litter bin in the particular beach which the Member mentioned because when the tide is high it covers the beach. So there is no point in putting a litter bin only to see it float away later. On the complaint of oil sludge, may I inform the Member for Anson that the shipyard concerned has its own facilities for reception of oil sludge. The PSA also has its own facilities at Pulau Sebarok for removing oil sludge from tankers and ships. The PSA has also been taking enforcement action against sea pollution. We are at the crossroad between East and West, and hundreds of ships pass by daily. Some of the ships may have discharged their oil sludge while passing through without being caught.”
“Sir, I beg to report that the Committee of Supply has made further progress on the Main and Development Estimates for the financial year 1st April, 1975 to 31st March, 1976, and ask leave to sit again tomorrow.”
“If we want to please everybody, we would not be able to succeed in our business of government. However, in a densely populated country like ours, if we do not pay attention to the time factor then, to my mind, the country will in future be in dire difficulties. It is only when we can make full use of the time available and avail ourselves of the favourable conditions around us that we can carry out our policy of bringing a better life for our country and our people. Another point I would like to add relates to what the Member for Changi had said about the problems of the fishermen. The Member for Toa Payoh has also added the point about the management of hawkers by the HDB. According to my understanding, the Resettlement Department of the HDB will usually bring the matter to the appropriate authority which has jurisdiction over the matter concerned. In other words, if the matter raised comes under their jurisdiction, such as when there are vacancies left, the department concerned would try to accommodate such people like resettled fishermen. Other matters will be taken up by the other relevant departments concerned. I myself have considerable experience dealing with HDB hawkers. Under normal circumstances if a hawker centre is built in an HDB estate and ready for allocation, then the Estate Officer of the Area Office concerned will discuss with the MP concerned about resettlement cases and other matters relating thereto. So in the circumstances I believe the Member for Changi would be consulted by the Area Office concerned when the fishermen in question were to be resettled, so that the matter could be solved amicably.”
“Secondly, two of the sites chosen are extensions of old market places. Since the sites have been fixed, there is hardly any possibility of reversing the decision. Another point is about unlicensed hawkers in Jurong. At that time the JTC had not yet set up its own hawkers department, and moreover the factories there were in need of their services. Therefore, the JTC could only decide on the sites for the hawker centres in Jurong Town, while the expenses and the management thereof came under our control. But now any new hawker centre in Jurong Town will be managed by the JTC authorities. The Member for Sembawang mentioned about newsvendors. According to our records, if a newsvendor does not have a stall at a definite place, he need not hold a hawker licence. We have not taken any action against such news-vendors. A newsvendors normally delivers the newspaper from house to house on a bicycle. But if he sets up a stall, he would be bound by certain regulations, and we will then take measures to deal with him. As we have said, it is easy to talk but difficult to practise. So it is very well to give encouraging answers to please people, but it will not be practical if in the end they cannot be fulfilled. In this regard I hope many Members will agree with my view. In Asia many countries with Parliamentary democratic systems have failed. It is because the governments in these countries could only pay lip-service and could not actually practise what they preached, which caused the degeneration and subsequent dismemberment of the governments concerned. On the other hand, in the course of carrying out of our policy if we desist from action for fear of adversely affecting the interests of a minority, then we shall not be able to accomplish anything.”
“Sir, for every rule there is an exception. Of course, in real cases of hardship we will make an exception. One exception is that national servicemen who are trained as cooks during national service and have become exceptionally good cooks and who have discharged their national service liability well will, if there are vacancies in the markets, be issued with hawker licences. This is a reward for good service in the army and an encouragement to people to cook better and more tasty food. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for the Environment (Mr Chor Yeok Eng)(In Mandarin): Sir, there are several points I would like to make to supplement the replies given by my Minister. The Member for Jurong made certain comments concerning hawkers and the siting of hawker centres. At the moment the matter is dealt with by several departments, the HDB, PSA, and the JTC besides the Ministry of the Environment. The present arrangement is this. In regard to the designing or planning of hawker centres, if it is to be in, say Jurong Town area, then it is dealt with by the Jurong Town Corporation. Because if it is not handled by them there will be certain inconveniences and difficulties in respect of choice of site, supervision, etc. This resulted in the various authorities being responsible for control of hawkers in their own areas. Regarding the question of whether or not a Member of Parliament should be consulted in the setting up of a hawker centre in his constituency, in so far as the Ministry of the Environment is concerned the Member of Parliament concerned has generally been consulted in the choice of a site. As regards Jurong, two reasons could be given for the Member's complaint. The first is that the JTC has only recently set up a hawkers department.”
“We are not encouraging hawking. Probably it will be better for the fishermen to engage in some other occupation. I doubt very much whether a good fisherman can become a good hawker. He will probably go bankrupt in no time. We would probably save him a lot of trouble by not giving him a licence. But as we are unable to resettle all bona tide hawkers into designated areas, we are not issuing new licences. The problem will be a perennial one. On the one hand, we are not able to accommodate all bona fide hawkers and, on the other hand, we are issuing more licences.”
“As I say, I do not know about the case. It could be that the hawker was told, "Would you please move your goods as you are blocking traffic?" The hawker was probably recalcitrant and said, "Go to hell with you. I will remove it at my own time." Therefore, it was taken away. It could be like this; I do not know. At the moment, the Ministry of the Environment puts up its logo in every market place and hawker centre under its control. It is for administrative' effi- ciency that some markets are controlled by PSA, JTC and HDB. For the Ministry of the Environment to control hawkers all over Singapore is a bit unwieldy. So it is a question of administrative expediency. Authorities or statutory bodies which build markets or hawker centres within their own estates look after them, but they all observe the same Hawker Regulations. I do not know if fishermen can become good hawkers.”
“It is not the policy to confiscate the goods. But there must be other good reasons. I do not know about this particular case and I do not think we should waste time on particular instances. If the Member wants it to be clarified, please write to me giving details of the case.”
“He can still be a danger to the public if he subsequently comes in contact with typhoid or cholera germs. And if his personal hygiene is not up to standard, he will pass it on. I think the best means of making hawkers realise that clean personal habits are essential would be for members of the public to avoid hawkers with dirty habits. That is more effective than all the fines imposed by my inspectors. Sir, as regards the suggestion that we should inspect and supervise food prepared by hawkers in squatter areas, here again it is not practical. We are already short of doctors and, as I said, I am finding it very difficult to recruit health inspectors. To supervise the preparation of food by every hawker in every squatter area is impracticable. Members know that different hawkers sell their food at different times of the day and the food is therefore prepared at different times too. It is physically impossible to carry out this suggestion. The only way to ensure that they are clean is to allow only licensed hawkers to sell in hawker centres under sanitary conditions, closely and strictly supervised. Sir, if any Member remains unsatisfied because I have missed replying to their questions, I am prepared to answer them.”
“We find that the only most effective way to dissuade them from illegal hawking is to confiscate their goods. Sir, I am unable to assure the Member for Anson, or for that matter the Members for other constituencies, that hawker centres will be built in places within their own constituencies. As I explained earlier, there is limited space and limited finance. It would be ideal if we can build a hawker centre for each and every MP and in the place of their choice together with sufficient space to allot enough stalls for their constituents. But unfortunately the ideal is not attainable because of certain limitations. We have already spent $4.2 million. For 1975-76, we are providing another $4.2 million for hawker centres and markets. We have spent quite a lot of money already. We have built 20 markets and hawker centres. They are under various stages of construction. But to build hawker centres in a place which Members consider ideal and which the hawkers consider ideal, is beyond our capacity. Sir, as regards medical examination for hawkers, we are doing that. But we cannot do it for every hawker. It is free, I know, but the hawkers would suffer because it will take one week to really examine them as we are doing now when we resite them and put them in hawker centres. And during this time they will lose their earnings. As I said, there are 31,000 hawkers and together with their assistants, there will be about 40,000-odd. And it is almost physically impossible to examine all of them. So we do what we can. If there is trace of any outbreak of cholera or typhoid in any area, we go there and we really examine all of them in that area. But medical examination and screening does not mean that hereafter he will not be a danger to the public.”