Low Thia Khiang
Singapore
“Mr Speaker, my question is for the Minister for Health. The official communication channel to the people who subscribe to the WhatsApp group quoted the Prime Minister saying that "Experts think that the Wuhan virus may be less deadlier than SARS". So, can we have some verification whether this is true so far?”
“In Mandarin, Sir. (In Mandarin): [Please refer to Vernacular Speech.] So, Member Mr Gan Thiam Poh meant to say that although the Minister has the decision-making power under this Bill, you can still go to Court to challenge the decision.”
“Mr Speaker, clarification in Mandarin. (In Mandarin): [Please refer to Vernacular Speech.] I have stated clearly that the Government already has a lot of power under existing legislation. They can even shut down websites.”
“(In Mandarin): [Please refer to Vernacular Speech.] First and foremost, you must follow the Minister's decision to take down the message, you cannot go to Court. According to this Bill, you must comply with the Minister's order. Otherwise, you will be charged.”
“In Mandarin, Sir. (In Mandarin): [Please refer to Vernacular Speech.] Our Secretary-General is in the Committee. He told us about the contents of the Committee's discussion, so we know what was discussed in the Committee.”
“(In Mandarin): [Please refer to Vernacular Speech.] You assume that the Minister will not do this, but is your assumption correct? It may be correct now, but will it be correct in the future? Even the Minister cannot guarantee that, he said he cannot be sure that future governments will not abuse their power. Can you be sure?”
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“Further clarification, Sir. Is the Minister aware that if it is more than $5,000 in a year, any single donation, even 50 cents, in order to keep that amount, you will have to have records. It is more tedious than having, let us say, more than $50, and you have to record. Or we do not need to keep record at all.”
“Mr Speaker, may I seek clarification from the Minister? I would like to know from the Minister what is the basis for the $5,000 anonymous donations that are allowed in one financial year. And why does the Minister prefer a capping of anonymous donations to $5,000 in a financial year, unlike in some countries where they cap a single donation, thereby allowing small donors? By doing that, is the Minister aware that he is actually imposing a very tedious process on the opposition, especially opposition parties which basically receive small sums of donations? Is that purposely making it difficult for the opposition to keep accounts and to make it more difficult for the opposition to receive small sums, knowing that we depend a lot on small sum donors whereas I believe PAP would not need the money?”
“Without any administrative assistants how do we keep records?”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, may I have permission to clarify a statement made by my Secretary-General?”
“The Minister has not answered my question on what has HDB done.”
“Sir, what has the HDB done or how has it assisted the town councils on the problem of potential killer litter before the incident in which a young girl was killed by a killer litter? Second, what is the role of the HDB, in managing the estates, on this killer litter problem? I thought town councils are responsible for taking enforcement action on killer litter offenders. From the Minister's answer, it seems to me that the HDB should also be responsible. What is the role the HDB would play under the circumstances in such a situation?”
“Sir, how does a person prove that he has checked the passport and the original documents? Does he need a witness in case the person turns out to be an illegal immigrant? The witness can say, "Yes, I have seen him verifying."”
“Sir, as regards landlords, the landlord does not know and has no knowledge of the subletting. On the question of deterrence, if the court, even without mandatory sentence in the legislation, were to impose very heavy penalty, is that not deterrent enough?”
“Sir, I have two questions. Firstly, in a situation where the landlord has exercised due diligence, verified the documents of his tenant, but subsequently, the tenant might bring his friend into the house to stay with him or sublet it without the landlord's notice, will the landlord be prosecuted under the circumstances? Secondly, the Minister explained just now why there is a need for mandatory sentence to deter would-be illegal immigrants. But looking at the statistics, it seems to me that it is not really effective even with the mandatory sentence. I wonder why we want to impose a mandatory sentence rather than allowing the Court to decide based on the circumstances. Can we not trust the Court to decide on the different situations? I think the Court will know what is the policy of the Government. If it is really that serious to deter illegal immigrants, I believe the Court will impose the necessary punishment.”
“So these are all costs which have to be reflected and then the customers and business will be able to decide.”
“Yes. BG Lee Hsien Loong: No, that is not the purpose. If the cheapest way to do it is by cheque, then we let people do it by cheque. If the cheapest way is by cash, we let people do it by cash. If the cheapest way is by Giro, then they go by Giro or ATM. But each one has a cost and each cost ought to be reflected. Our problem is that none of these costs has been reflected, and everything has been apparently free and we have been applying moral suasion, telling people it is good for the country, cashless society, please do this, that and the other. "Don't write a cheque, use this." But the price signals are the other way. It is free to write a cheque. The cheque book does not cost money. So people write cheques. It costs the bank $2 to clear a cheque. Eventually, it costs the customer $2 too. Somewhere, indirectly, it is bundled into your charges, but you do not see it. So you do not recognise it. We have to move to a position where these costs are properly reflected and I think there will be affordable alternatives when all these costs are reflected, because, in fact, Singapore is not an expensive country in which to provide banking services. And then customers will choose and if it makes sense to write a cheque because it is a big amount of money, you write a cheque and you send it over. If it is $20 on your PUB bill, you may go to the ATM and pay, or you may dial up and pay and that costs 10 cents instead of having to queue up at the counter, which really is not just a matter of whatever counter charge may or may not be, but the cost of taking a bus to go there, spending an afternoon queuing up, paying and then coming back, all of which means time to you and loss in production to the economy.”
“Would the charges on checking accounts push Singapore into a cashless society? BG Lee Hsien Loong: Do you mean that we ought to charge for cheques in order to persuade people to go cashless?”
“Sir, I wonder whether the increase in charges for banking services, especially checking accounts, is purported to push Singapore towards a cashless society. The DPM was talking about encouraging customers to march away from the bank. In view of the imposition of POSBank's minimum charge, would DPM encourage POSBank's small account holders to march out of POSBank and to open accounts with some other banks? BG Lee Hsien Loong: I do not understand the question about checking accounts.”
“" But some people tell me that it is easy to do so. I will have to learn harder, but old folks will find it even more difficult. It is something which we will have to allow to phase in over time.”
“The reason that we have not given banking licences profligately is because a banking licence carries great responsibility to operate in a very tight manner, to make sure that the deposits are safe and that the depositors do not lose their money. Finance companies operate well as finance companies, but to say that because it is a finance company, let us make it a bank, and it will offer cheap services - when a bank comes along and says, "I am offering something very cheap", that is when banking regulators get quite worried and start to look very carefully to see whether there is something not quite right. So I do not think it is a wise thing to say that the Government will give a banking licence to anybody. Can the person make good use of the banking licence, operate a good bank and provide services which are safe for Singaporeans? If so, he can have a licence. If not, that is unwise. The lowest-cost banking service most likely in the next phase will be Internet banking, no branches, no counters. If there is a branch, every time when you go there, it will charge you a few dollars just to say hello to the teller because it costs money to keep the teller there and to pay rent on the branch. You use ATMs, dial up on the Internet or do phone banking. It is growing in the developed countries and is something that we are studying now on how we can also introduce it in Singapore. The costs are significantly lower than having the bricks and mortar but, at the same time, it is something which customers will take a while to get used to, particularly for the older Singaporeans. If you tell them about Internet banking, it is not so easy. Even I find it difficult to pick up a phone and it says, "If you want to find out the account balance, press 1, if not, press 2 and so on.”
“Sir, is the DPM aware that the US government is subsidising low income families to operate checking accounts? It is reported in today's Lianhe Zaobao. Based on the rationale explained by DPM on the subsidy of consumer services and what he termed as banking services, does he think that the US government is being irrational? The second question is whether the Government will consider opening up the domestic banking market by allowing local finance companies to operate banking services to serve small depositors who will need just simple basic banking services. DPM does not need to worry too much whether or not these are viable. Because when you open up, some finance companies may offer banking service for free. The question is whether the Government is prepared to open up the market. BG Lee Hsien Loong: Sir, firstly on the American government, it is not for us to pass judgement on the American government, least of all, on a one sentence report in Lianhe Zaobao, as reported by Mr Low Thia Khiang. They have a different approach. We have explained our rationale. Cheques are a very integral part of the American financial system. It is not a positive feature but it is the way they work. They write cheques for $2, $5, $7, small sums, and it costs $1 or $2 to clear each cheque. But that is the way their system is and they have not been able to rationalise. So perhaps that is one reason why they have had no choice but to subsidise. But that is their problem. We do not have that problem. Secondly, as to whether we would give a banking licence to a finance company, I think that is a totally different proposition. A bank is a bank, a finance company is a finance company.”
“Sir, does the Minister see the need to require foreign domestic workers after they have arrived here to also include a psychological evaluation in their subsequent medical examination?”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, I would like to seek the Minister's view on the significance of the Speakers' Corner to Singapore.”
“Sir, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. The sum of $3,944,037,060 for Head L ordered to stand part of the Main Estimates. The sum of $2,052,000,000 for Head L ordered to stand part of the Development Estimates. The Chairman: I shall now deal with the remaining heads of expenditure in respect of which no amendments stand on the Order Paper Supplement. In respect of the Main Estimates, they are Heads C, D, G and Z. I propose to take those heads of expenditure en bloc. Question, "That the sums stated for those Heads of Expenditure which appear in the last column of the Schedule of estimated expenditure under the Main Estimates on page 37 of Paper Cmd. 2 of 2000 stand part of the Main Estimates," put and agreed to.”
“Sir, I read the Hansard and understand that Mr Chiam complained in the past that PCF officials had indeed asked whether or not students who requested for admission belonged to any political party. Is this correct? What is the Senior Minster of State's view on this?”
“Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head L of the Development Estimates be reduced by $10 in respect of Code LF5200. I would like to ask the Minister: (1) When did the Government decide to provide the grants to PCF and on what considerations that Government so decided? (2) How much grant has been disbursed to PCF so far since the scheme started? (3) Does the Ministry assess the effectiveness of application of the grants, and if so, what improvements have been made by the PCF in terms of its curriculum or upgrading of its facilities, and whether these improvements are across the board of all PCF education centres or only in PAP wards? (4) Does the Ministry impose any guidelines on operation of PCF education centres, for example, whether we allow PCF to admit students based on political affiliations?”
“Will there be a situation whereby every school will say that the student refuses to buckle down? Is it possible that a student who may have made some mistakes in the past could end up with no school to go to? RAdm Teo Chee Hean: If there are students who wish to continue with their education and no school would admit them, please let me know. I know of no such case. But if there are students who do not take their education seriously, they go to school and create difficulties, not just for the school but for the other students, and make it difficult for the other students to study, then, I would think very carefully about whether or not we want to insist on having that student attend school and sit in the class. I have received many letters from parents on subjects like that too, complaining," Why did you allow this student to continue in this class where my child is because he is creating a nuisance?" But the schools actually try very hard to allow the students to stay. The teachers are very compassionate and they try their very best to do so.”
“Sir, the point is that there were schools which refused to accept him. Of course, he went to school at the end of the day. But the fact is that he has gone through quite a lot of schools and obviously there were schools which had the attitude that since he had this problem, it was better for them not to accept him. Is this the right attitude of the schools? RAdm Teo Chee Hean: Mr Low was making a general point that these people do not have a second chance. This young man had a second chance and he did very well in school. And I am very happy for him. When students run into difficulties, they sometimes find it better to move to another school, to a new environment, where they can make a fresh start. That may be a sensible thing to do, than to continue in the school that he is currently in. And sometimes because of that, they blossom, they solve their problems and they do well. If that is the case, then that is good. Sometimes, when meeting students who have had difficulties in the past, the principals would want to talk to the students and the parents and say, "Look, are you willing to buckle down, resolve not to get into the difficulties that you had in the past, buckle down and get down to work? If you are, come. If you are not, even if you come to this school or that school and you continue with your past practices, you are not going to do well." When faced with such a choice, sometimes they buckle down, and they get down to work. They get their second chance and they do well. Sometimes, they do not. 5.30 pm”
“Sir, I thought the Minister would not want to respond because the survey was not conducted by the Ministry or not related to the Government. But the second part of my speech is related to the Ministry, ie, the school's attitude towards students and failing to give students a second chance. Is their attitude going to be helpful in bringing out the results of the Desired Outcomes of Education? RAdm Teo Chee Hean: In the particular case of this student, he did go to school and he did get very good results. So I am not sure what point Mr Low is making.”
“Sir, in fact, I asked a specific question as to whether the survey that I referred to is part of the desired outcomes that the Ministry aims to have and whether it is the objective of the Ministry to promote a sense of national identity and thereby minimise the ethnic identity. It is specific. RAdm Teo Chee Hean: Sir, this was not a survey conducted by the Ministry. So I am unable to comment on the detailed results. But whether or not we want to build national identity, the answer is yes. Whether we want to have the students understand their ethnic roots, the answer is yes. But if I heard Mr Low correctly, he was asking to go further than that. He was asking why we have not done more for the Chinese sense of identity, and he was attributing it to our teaching English in the schools, and so on. I am not sure exactly what Mr Low is suggesting. But it seems to me that he was suggesting quite a departure from what we have as principles in our national education system and perhaps even advocating going back to where we were in the 50s. I would not support that.”
“Sir, the Minister has not responded to my speech. I do not know whether he is going to respond. RAdm Teo Chee Hean: I am unable to respond to Mr Low's speech because he made some very general remarks, some of which can be attributable to the education system, but some of which cannot. So I am not quite sure how to respond to his speech. It seems to me that Mr Low was suggesting that we go back to a segregated education system where we put emphasis on Chinese, and so forth. We had a long debate in this House on SAP schools, and whether they are suitable or not. I am not sure what Mr Low was suggesting.”
“Some schools want to attain high ranking, and they are only concerned with students scoring good results for them to attain their target. To them, it is better that those students who do not behave well do not come as they may ruin the reputation of the school. If the mindset of the school administrators is such that they are so eager for quick results and instant benefits, then how can we expect them to educate our students in a holistic educational approach in order to attain the desired outcomes of our education policy?”
“Unlike in the Malay community, when the Malays go to the mosque and attend the various activities connected therewith, their sense of belonging to their own ethnic group is strengthened, and the use of their language enhanced. On the other hand, apart from the Government's Speak Mandarin Campaign and some related activities, there is nothing very much in our social framework to make the ethnic Chinese in Singapore enhance their sense of belonging to their community. Now with the education system turning to use English as the main medium of instruction, learning of English literature made compulsory in the secondary schools, and some schools offering European history rather than Asian history, many Chinese students have very limited knowledge of their own history and their own literature. No wonder they do not have a sense of belonging to their own racial group. I do not know whether the aims of our education system is such that we want to blur the students' sense of belonging for their own ethnic group in order to enhance their sense of belonging to Singapore as a nation. The second incident was this report on 2nd March in the Straits Times that one top student from a neighbourhood school was originally from a well-known school. However, during his younger days, he committed a number of offences and had criminal convictions. As a result, many schools did not want to take him. Fortunately, this neighbourhood school admitted him and gave him a second chance. He seized the opportunity, turned over a new leaf, and scored many 'As' in his 'O' level examinations. While we are talking about a holistic approach to attain our educational ideals, some schools are using this unilateral policy.”
“Sir, in this budget, the Ministry of Education made out a long list of achievements in its educational ideals. However, from two recent incidents, I cannot help but ask myself what are the educational results that we have attained. First, we have this random survey conducted by Dr Chan Han Ying of NUS which revealed that one-quarter of the Chinese students did not wish to be Chinese in their next life. On the other hand, the vast majority of Malay and Indian students wished to remain as Malays and Indians respectively in their next life. Singapore has been implementing the unified education system and bilingual education for many years. All the students from the various ethnic groups are educated in the same educational system. How is it that there is a great difference in their basic sense of belonging for their ethnic groups? Some commentators felt that this was a result of the impact of western culture on Singapore and some people were saying that this was an inevitable result of Singapore's globalisation. However, all the ethnic groups in Singapore are subjected to the same western culture and the same globalisation. How is it that the survey reveals that the inclination of the Chinese students is so different from that of the students from the other ethnic groups? Over the last 30 years of nation building, all the policies of the Government have been such that the emphasis is on the use of English as the main stream. This has affected the Chinese community most. Apart from the language and the family traditions, there is no effective method under the Government's policy to nourish their sense of belonging to their own ethnic group.”
“Sir, is the Minister aware that it is not only the part on delivery, but also bringing up the children. Very often, these unwed mothers face family pressures in between, so they have problems of living within the family, and if they are going to live with their friends, they are going to face uncertainty over accommodation. The question is how do they have a permanent home for them to bring up the child? They face this problem and the HDB will not allow them to apply directly for a rental flat. Since the Minister is so sympathetic, I would appreciate it if he could persuade the HDB because we have asked the question but HDB did not allow.”
“Sir, in his reply just now, the Minister appears to be very compassionate and sympathetic towards unwed mothers. I would like to ask him whether he is aware of lodging problems faced by unwed mothers with children, and whether he would persuade the HDB to allow unwed mothers with children to apply directly to HDB for a flat.”
“Sir, may I seek a clarification from the Minister?”
“Sir, one particular area of concern among VWOs serving the elderly is the lack of coordinated effort to look at the social needs of the community at the planning stage. It is not common for services to be needed in a particular locality but one is not able to site the service centre there due to a lack of a proper site. Matters are compounded in the new housing estates where void decks are becoming short in supply and there are competing uses. Sir, it has become critical that the various planning agencies get together and provide for many of these services and facilities at the planning stage. The Inter-Ministerial Committee on the Ageing Population made a recommendation in its report last year, calling for MCDS to become the coordinating agency to coordinate with various Government agencies involved in the town planning stage, that is, when the blueprint is being drawn up, MCDS should be the coordinating agency to identify the demands and needs of the elderly. Sir, it also made the recommendation that CDCs, grassroots organisations and VWOs be consulted on the local needs as far as the elderly were concerned so that the needs and facilities that they require can be taken into account in planning and when implementing programmes for the aged. Sir, I would like to ask the Minister what steps the Ministry has taken to become the coordinating agency in this respect.”
“Sir, currently, there is an Elderly Development Division, under the Ministry of Community Development. Its functions include, among other things, monitoring and reviewing of community-based programmes and residential care services for the elderly, and regulatory control of sheltered homes for the aged. Under the Ministry of Health, there is an Elderly Care Unit responsible for development of institutional care and community-based services for the elderly. Sir, although I understand the different focus and capability of the Ministries in developing specific services needed by the aged, I share the view in the report of the Inter-Ministerial Committee on the Ageing Population that the current situation does not provide a satisfactory framework in providing services to the aged. The Report said, and I quote: "The present administrative divide between social care and health care hinders the development of holistic models of care for senior citizens. It also discourages service providers from expanding their scope of services and limits the scope of joint planning and development of health and social services." This is in page 85 of the Report. I would like to know from the Minister what is his response to the above. Mr R. Ravindran (Bukit Timah): Sir, the number of senior citizens aged 65 years and above stood at 235,000 as at 1999 and there will be 529,000 of them in the year 2020. The rapidly ageing population will mean that there will be increased demand for elderly care services at the local level. It has been commented for sometime that there are insufficient facilities at the local level for the elderly.”
“From a negative perspective, the patient is a test subject. His condition may worsen. However, on the positive side, the patient is participating in the search for a cure of his condition. If a cure is found, the benefit is not just for one person but it will be for everyone else in the world that suffers from this illness. Its existence will provide hope to a person who would otherwise have only one option, to await certain death. The cost for the patient must be minimal, perhaps even free. Such a hospital could attract some of the world's best researchers. The Hospital of Hope would be a congregating place for researchers. Knowledge will be shared and accumulated for the good of all.”
“I was worried after reading the newspaper report of 7th February in the Straits Times that the number of patients had increased by 20% whereas the number of staff had increased by only 11%. Some doctors said that they were too tired to maintain the requisite level of service. I quote from the Straits Times: A cardiologist said, "I spend about five minutes or less on a patient. It is not enough. I want to spend more time, but there are so many patients to see and so much to do." Is it true that as a result of the Government's plan to restructure, the hospitals have to look at the bottom line and thus have to cut cost, resulting in not enough doctors and nurses being recruited? Hence, the quality of service is affected. I would like the Minister for Health to give us an audit on the quality of service in the hospitals. How frequent is the audit conducted? Could the Minister tell us what kind of benchmark the Ministry of Health has with regard to the various types of services in the hospitals and the level of service Singaporeans can expect in the healthcare. Mr Gerald Ee (Nominated Member): Sir, I would like the Minister to consider setting up a hospital to specifically treat patients who are not responding to established treatments and medicines. Such a hospital will be a place of last resort and could be known as the Hospital of Hope. There should be stringent entry requirements. A person wishing to be admitted to the Hospital of Hope must obtain the certification of at least two specialists to confirm that he is not responding to established treatments and medicines. The hospital will be a place where new but untried, and experimental treatments and medicines are applied with the patient's consent. There is no guarantee of a cure, only the hope for one.”
“Sir, in the last one to two years, I have frequently heard complaints about the services at the restructured hospitals. Basically, the complaints could be in two categories. The waiting time is too long and services rendered by the medical staff are not satisfactory. Patients have to wait too long to see the doctors at the Specialist Outpatient Clinics (SOCs), and at the A&E unit, patients inadvertently have to wait for a long time before being admitted to the wards. A survey published recently in the Straits Times confirmed that the waiting time at the 18 specialist clinics at the Singapore General Hospital and at the NUH is about two hours. With regard to the service level, the people are not happy with the services of the medical staff. Secondly, they are worried about the nurse-to-patient ratio. For instance, patients complain that the hospital staff lack the necessary skills in administering intravenous drips or inserting gastric tubes to suck out fluids from the patient's stomach. When they ring for a nurse to come and assist them to go to the toilets, the nurse does not turn up even after a long wait. Some cannot help but urinate on the bed. Patients who went back to the specialist clinics at the hospital told me that after waiting for 1 1/2 hours they were merely given a five-minute examination. They wonder if the doctors really understood their problems. Some patients who complained about their pains were told that there were too many problems and that these could not be diagnosed at one examination and were told to come again. Sir, of course these were isolated cases. I could not say for sure what the overall service performance of the whole staff was.”
“Could the Senior Parliamentary Secretary clarify what are the criteria for eligibility for concession from HDB? Assoc. Prof. Koo Tsai Kee: Sir, I have just clarified that. There is only one condition, that is, whoever can form an education centre with a paid up capital of $5 million, which in today's context is not very big. In fact, this criterion was drawn up in 1991. I have asked HDB whether we should revise it because $5 million in the context of today's dot.com fever is very small. An hon. Member: Maybe $10 million. Assoc. Prof. Koo Tsai Kee: Mr Chiam has got it factually wrong. Mr Chiam has got it factually wrong the third time when he quoted the example where a resident could not sell his flat after five years of occupation in his flat. No, he can still sell the flat after five years' occupation, but he cannot go to HDB and register for a second new flat. He can only do that if he has served up a ten-year period from the time he took possession of his first flat. All HDB rules are fairly applied across the board. It does not discriminate between party, creed or race. Mr Chiam should get his facts right before coming here again on these issues.”
“They know that the supply is available; it is coming on-stream; Government land sales programme is this amount every year. If you are interested in public housing, we also have sufficient public housing available for you. You join the queue. I think that is a very clear cut, a very transparent and a very fair policy which will help to ensure that there is stability in the supply and it will help to ensure that the market in the long term is fairly well balanced. He made one last point about HDB 2. I think I have given him an answer on that one. Now, on Mr Low Thia Khiang's point - list of old flats waiting to be upgraded. He would like to have a list. We do not give this list to anybody, even the PAP Members who ask. I do not think we should give this list freely. But you know what the flats are, you know the age of your flats in your constituency. And I think, generally, people do know in those areas that I mentioned just now - Redhill, Toa Payoh, Queenstown, Tiong Bahru. I think if you go and do some homework, you will be able to find out where these flats are. It is not difficult. On the time frame, as I indicated earlier, this is a very long-term programme. We are about half way through or maybe slightly more. But I think it is very presumptuous to say that this is going to be the five-year time frame for MUP. For a start, how do we know that we are going to have surpluses every year for the next five years? This is something that we should not forget - that we can only do an upgrading if we have the surpluses. Therefore, I cannot provide any time frame for MUP programme. We will take it on a year-to-year basis. Tying upgrading to political support - what was your question?”
“I think that is a very tall order for any Ministry or any authority or any government to achieve. To achieve stability in price, I think, requires you to monitor and to find out or to second guess what the market is going to be like. If you want to achieve that, you have got to release land in a way that will help to soak up the demand. Even then, you may not be able to succeed. So what do we do? We say, let us gauge what is the medium term demand. These are the numbers of new households that are being formed, the number of young families that are coming into the market, the people who are coming in from overseas, whether employment pass holders, professionals or PRs, or whatever - let us do an estimate on what is the medium term demand, what is the trend. In the Concept Plan review, you are talking about population target of 5.5 million, what does that entail in terms of number of units that are required. And then we work towards that. We release land such that the private sector and also the public sector, HDB, can provide the required number of units. And I think that is what we will do. Short-term fluctuations from year to year depending on the stock market, depending on the external demand - these are all short-term fluctuations which I think we are not in a position to try and anticipate or second guess. So, as far as possible, the policy is, let us release a steady flow of land for a long term or medium term supply, and prices will fluctuate according to how the demand comes in. But in that way, by making that clear and making that transparent, people are not tempted to go and rush in if they do not need to. People are not tempted to try and chase prices like what happened during the peak of the property boom.”
“Sir, the Minister says that he has a comprehensive list of old flats, waiting to be upgraded, to prove that Hougang flats are not the oldest. Would he make available the whole list to me or to make it public? And would he estimate what is the time frame that my estate would be upgraded? Second clarification, Sir. The Minister mentioned about the criteria for the upgrading. I want to ask him this. By tying the upgrading programme to political support level, does it make any difference at all to pork barrel politics where you use Government funds to dispense benefits to your supporters? Mr Mah Bow Tan: First of all, let me answer Mr Sinnakaruppan. He was first in the queue; higher priority. I have to give face to my parliamentary colleague. Mr Sinnakaruppan is quite adamant that the family size should be a factor in the setting of prices. My point really is that it is not HDB's ambit. It is not HDB's mission to actually vary prices according to family size. We vary prices according to location. I think that is eminently suitable. We vary prices according to floor, which floor it is (low floor or high floor). I think that is also easily understood, and no arguments. Either you are on the 25th floor or you are on the 2nd floor. We vary prices according to closeness to MRT. Again, no questions asked. But the moment you ask HDB to start to vary prices according to how many children you have, HDB is going to have a lot of problems, and I do not think this is something we want to commit HDB to doing. So let us agree to disagree on this one. I do not think it is a good idea. He also asked about release of land. The question of release of land is really a question of what do we want to achieve. His point is that we should be achieving stability in price.”
“When I referred to the upgrading issue in Parliament, the Minister for National Development said that it was not possible to upgrade all the flats at the same time. The Opposition wards must queue up at the end. But now the situation is that the flats which are less than 10 years old in the PAP wards are already upgraded, while flats which are more than 20 years old in the Hougang constituency have not. I can anticipate the Minister for National Development telling me that there is a difference between IUP and MUP. Be that as it may, the people in Hougang can suffer a little bit of disadvantage. The Government can just provide IUP to these flats that are more than 20 years. The result of this policy of two different kinds of upgrading is that flats in Hougang which are older than 20 years are not upgraded, but flats in other constituencies which are less than 10 years old are upgraded. My conclusion is that the Minister's explanation that it is not possible to have all the estates upgraded does not hold water. What the PAP Government really meant was that the Opposition wards would have to wait till what the Prime Minister said at the last election that "opposition wards will become slums". If, as the Prime Minister has said, one fine day the Opposition ward does become a slum, compared to other wards, this will be the desired outcome of the PAP in consolidating the hold of its power and an achievement of Prime Minister Goh during his term of office! By then, I wonder if the Cabinet, which the Minister for Finance described as the custodian of the people's money, will feel proud of the slums among them in the so-called Singapore 21 vision.”
“Sir, on HDB upgrading, I recall that on 7th March, during the debate on the financial policy of the Government, the Minister for Finance, in reply to questions on the budget surpluses, said and I quote: "Who is the Government? The money in the reserves is yours. What is the Government? The Government represents the people. The Frontbench and the Ministers are just your agents holding the money." The Minister spoke with justification and good reasons. But the more I think of it, the more I become doubtful. The Government's money belongs to the people. But it is for the Government to decide how to spend it. The ruling Party, the PAP, is using the people's money to threaten the people by saying that if you do not vote for the PAP, you would not get the benefit of upgrading funded by the Government with the people's money. The Minister for Finance said time and again that the Government represents the people. Since the Government represents the people, it should be fair to all the people alike. But the scheduling of the upgrading programme is based on the election results. In the PAP wards, some estates which are not very old have already been upgraded. But in my Hougang constituency, some older flats in the old Punggol estate are already more than 23 years old, yet the turn has not come for them to be upgraded. Since the Government's money is the people's money, why is it that the people in the Opposition wards do not have a share in it? Perhaps the PAP Government does not regard the people in the Opposition wards as their people. At the last general election, Prime Minister Goh Chok Tong even went to the extent of saying that the flats in the Opposition wards might become slums one day. These are words coming out from the mouth of the Prime Minister. I am very surprised.”
“Sir, in last year's Budget debate, I pointed out that the training programmes of workers have to be supported and approved by employers. I am glad to know that now the workers can go to the CDAC or the CIDB as their "surrogate employers" to obtain training and retraining. But this "surrogate employer" scheme has not been publicized and made known to the workers. I think MOM has to step up its publicity of these training programmes for workers so that they know the channels to which they can obtain such training and skills upgrading. During my meet-the-people sessions, quite a number of people came and told me that they were facing employment problems. Broadly, there are two classes of unemployed workers. One class is 40 years and below, but with low education and low skills. They have to compete with foreign workers and they either lose their jobs or their incomes are reduced. The other group consists of those above the age of 40 years. Some of them have some skills, some with low education and some have no skills and they could only go for odd jobs because most of them are not unionised. These workers are facing difficulties in finding jobs. We can imagine that when our economic restructuring is complete, it would be even more difficult for these people to find jobs suitable to them. MOM should look after the plight of such people and give them the proper training and job opportunities so that they will be able to contribute in the framework of our new economy. I do not know how many of such workers we have. Maybe MOM can give us some figures. But even if this is only a small number, they should not be overlooked because they are most vulnerable. They are part of us. We expect MOM to give them all the necessary help and support.”
“Sir, the Auditor-General's Report highlighted weakness in computer security in the following Ministries and agencies: Ministry of Education, the Registry of Trade Marks and Patents, Maritime and Port of Singapore Authority, TAS, the Inland Revenue Authority of Singapore and the PUB. Sir, we are all aware that with the advent of information technology and its usage, it is also associated with the risk of losing information, or worse, undesirable manipulation of the technology to one's advantage. Computer security lapse could also lead to a private citizen's sensitive information being revealed through the Government's database. I think the Government, being the user of such technology, should also be aware of the risks associated with it. The Government also has a public responsibility to ensure that the data it has on citizens are properly secured. I am therefore surprised that the Auditor-General found so many computer security problems in so many Government agencies. I therefore have the following questions: (1) What is the security standard set by the relevant authority? (2) Is the Government sure that the standard set is secure enough to prevent some unauthorised access to the database? (2) Who is responsible for ensuring that the set standards are met? 2.45 pm”
“Clarification, Sir. The Minister agrees with Kenneth Chen that people who live in private condominiums are more civic-minded than people who live in HDB estates. That is what he said. I would like to ask ---”
“Sir, may I have your permission to clarify?”
“Only by doing so, our farmers could then concentrate on their production issue instead of having to deal with the environmental officers every now and then when the people complain. We should also have guidelines for the planters to follow if they are using the untreated biological fertiliser. 5.15 pm”
“Especially PAP wards! Assoc. Prof. Low Seow Chay: Hougang also sometimes has foul smell. Sir, I would like to talk about other types of foul smell, besides what happens in Hougang. I would like to talk about smell from animal waste from the farms. It is common that people complain about smell from the farms and point their fingers directly or immediately at the egg farms that generate the waste. There is no doubt that these farms generate the waste. But the smell of the waste could be intensified by the widespread application of the biological fertiliser used by the landscape companies and vegetable farmers. The reason is that we now have so-called organic farm products which are very attractive to consumers. So a lot of biological fertilisers are used and they generate a lot of smell. Certain farms have their own waste treatment facility. Those who do not have waste treatment facility supply the raw untreated waste to farmers. And the way the farmer uses the raw waste can cause the objectionable smell that leads to people's complaint. On one occasion, a NUS researcher wanted to do a modelling of the pollution dispersion from a chicken farm. When the farmer asked him to provide some data to know what will be the acceptable emission level at the complainant's end, no answer was given. What does it mean? It means that even the pollution researcher himself has no basic pollution emission standard for him to use as a basis for his study. In other words, there is no standard of what the odour level will be acceptable. Without an acceptable odour limit on the complainant's end, the complaint would then become relatively arbitrary. In my view, we should try to find out from other advanced countries and learn from them how we could set an acceptable odour limit.”
“Sir, can I have your permission to seek one clarification?”