Ng Kah Ting
Singapore
“Mr Speaker, Sir, before I ask my supplementary question, may I declare, on behalf of the Member for Kebun Baru and myself, that we are both involved in the building of Montfort Secondary School and Montfort Junior School both of which are Government-aided schools. My question now, Sir, is: when will this take effect?”
“But, Sir, at the end of this debate on the Second Reading and the Bill committed to a Select Committee, I sincerely hope that all those who have the interest of Singapore at heart should come forward and make their contributions, be they critical or ways and means on how better we can improve upon this Bill.”
“But the basic foundation, I submit, and that is, the political stability-honest, efficient and an incorruptible political leadership-is paramount to the future well-being of Singapore, and that is, if we are to continue to enjoy our good standard of living, our good government and of course as an independent, sovereign entity or nation.”
“Sir, I knew that the NCMP would come out and say that-don't mix up the ISA with PPSO because basically it is the same. I say, no. Because in 1958, PAP was not in power. It was the Lim Yew Hock government. That is the difference I am trying to make. So let us not go around in this wild political rhetoric. I understand that.”
“Sir, before I make my observations, I just want to make a couple of points in reply to the Non-Constituency MP, Dr Lee. He said that in 1958 when he was asked to stand as a PAP candidate in Kallang he was afraid of the ISA. I do not think that is quite correct because in 1958, Sir, there was no ISA.”
“We should take advantage of the present political stability to provide for the future. In conclusion, Sir, let me draw an analogy. With Singapore being the No. 1 port in the world, this analogy is not inappropriate.”
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“Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, since the members of the Committee that was appointed to study the recommendations of the Commission of Inquiry had accepted that there should be appropriate amendments to the Port of Singapore Authority Act, may I inquire of the Hon. Minister for Communications and Information and Second Minister for Defence as to when such amendments could be drafted and introduced in this House.”
“Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, would the Hon. Minister for Finance and Minister for Health kindly consider disclosing to this House the review of pensions, whether it is a right or as a form of Singapore Allowance, as soon as possible?”
“Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, will this be continually done so that it becomes a pan of the way of life of Singapore? BG Lee Hsien Loong: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, yes, it will be done regularly so that it becomes a part of our way of life. Silent mobilization has become a part of our way of life - we do it regularly and nobody takes any notice. In time, Open Mobilization will attain the same status. HDB FLAT OWNERS UPGRADING TO BIGGER FLATS (Levy on resale of flats) 4. Mr S. Vasoo asked the Minister for National Development (a) how many existing 3-, 4- and 5-room Housing and Development Board flat owners have applied to upgrade to bigger flats; and (b) what is the rationale for not reducing the respective levy on resale of flats by owners upgrading to bigger HDB flats.”
“Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, while it is very heartening to receive the report from the Hon. Minister of State for Defence and Trade and Industry on the success of the first Open Mobilization scheme, will future exercises be conducted in such a way as to test the full preparedness of our reservists? BG Lee Hsien Loong: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, the answer is yes. For the first exercise, it was necessary for us to give pre-warning and publicity because the public had to be made aware of the nature of the exercise and what was expected of them. Otherwise, there would have been alarm and confusion which would have been highly undesirable. However, it is important that reservists should know that mobilization, whether open or silent, can take place at any time, on any day or weekend. Therefore, for future exercises, we do intend to activate the system without giving advance notice, so that the reservists will not know beforehand that this is the evening when they must watch their television sets for the mobilization symbol. Also, beyond coming back without notice, we will expect them to go not only to report but to equip themselves, to shake-out, to fall into battle order and to move out, and perhaps conduct a realistic exercise to verify that the whole system works. We will not do this with our entire order of battle, but we will do it with components, and we will do it regularly.”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, can the Minister enlighten the House as to whether there have been such cases referred to the Committee concerned?”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, is it not true to say that the Government is very simplistic in its policy on pig farmers, as has been stated in no uncertain terms by the Parliamentary Secretary in his reply to the observations made by my good friend, the hon. Member for Chua Chu Kang, by myself and others? Because the very words that came out from his mouth is for me too simplistic a policy of the Government.”
“We want to acquaint the public with the findings of the Primary Production Department and to reduce the prejudices and mis-information surrounding frozen pork. To cite an instance, Sir, during the campaign, there were many people who raised the question of the presence of chemical preservatives in frozen pork. It was a good opportunity to allay the fears of the consumer that no such chemical preservatives were used and that freezing itself was the only means of preservation. Sir, the Member for Whampoa also distressed me because he practised what I normally associate with the Member for Anson, and that is, to cast a slur on Government and government-associated companies. Coming from the Member for Whampoa, I can only say: Et Tu Brutus. Sir, there is no, and I repeat, there is no basis to the claim that Primary Industries Enterprise is the only company given the right to import frozen pork. In actual fact, no company requires a licence to operate as a frozen pork, or for that matter, as a frozen meat importer. What is required, Sir, is just an import permit which can be obtained from the Primary Production Department. The purpose of the import permit is to ascertain that the pork or other frozen meat originates from a country with compatible veterinary public health standards. This is to protect the consumers in Singapore from the peddling of low-quality and undesirable meat products. Currently, Sir, 36 companies are engaged in importing frozen pork in Singapore. Primary Industries Enterprise only imported 150 tons of frozen pork last year, representing 2% of the frozen pork imported into Singapore, and there is again no validity to the allegations that government was promoting frozen pork because a government-owned company is importing frozen pork.”
“It is quite apparent, Sir, that the hawkers who are operating at low rental cooked food stalls in the Government food centres are not passing on whatever rental savings that they have to the consumers. So in the long term, an alternative means of allocating cooked food stalls, as they become vacant, need to be looked at, and I again thank the Member for Toa Payoh for his suggestion. However, I am appreciative of the fact that a tender system may contribute to an increase in food prices, and that we would definitely consider the various options carefully before we adopt the final solution. Sir, I next come to the Member for Whampoa. I am distressed to hear that the Member for Whampoa has not been moved by our consumer education effort. I am, of course, referring to his unwillingness to eat frozen pork. Sir, the Frozen Pork Campaign was not an exercise to interfere with the consumer's likes and dislikes. It was a consumer education exercise. And the campaign, Sir, was organized by the Consumers' Association of Singapore with the support of eight other organizations, both Government Ministries and the private sector. Sir, I must state clearly that it was not organized by the Primary Industries Enterprise (PIE). Sir, the Primary Production Department had carried out tests which showed that frozen pork is just as good as fresh pork in terms of nutrient values and taste. More importantly, the Primary Production Department had also monitored consistently the prices of frozen pork and noted that frozen pork is cheaper than fresh pork. However, at the present moment, frozen pork accounts for only 6% of the total pork consumed in Singapore. Therein lies the objective of the Frozen Pork Campaign.”
“Sir, it is also far from practical to attempt to control the prices of cooked food items because the prices of such items depend very much on quality and quantity, and again on the popularity of that particular stall. However, Members of this House will be pleased to know that hawkers are advised and required to display on their stalls the prices of their various items that they are offering for sale. And if the public feel that such price tags are far too high, are in excess of what they think is good value for their money, then I would advise them, Sir, to turn to other alternatives or to go to another stall. Sir, the Member for Toa Payoh also pointed out the need to look at an alternative system of allocating hawker stalls, in particular cooked food stalls. My Ministry will review the policy of allocation of cooked food stalls after the remaining 540 street hawkers have been resettled into food centres. We would like to thank the Member for Toa Payoh for his suggestion regarding the tendering of future vacancies in such food centres. I would like to inform the House that at the present moment, there are already two systems of cooked food stalls in operation. First, we have those who operate cooked food stalls in the Government food centres that are run by HDB and MOE. Then, we have another group of people who operate cooked food stalls in the coffee shops. They rent a stall space from the coffee shop owner. We know that the rentals paid by those who are operating in the coffee shops are sometimes four to six times more than those that are paid by the hawkers in the Government food centres. Sir, we all know that the food available in the hawker centres usually is not significantly befter in quantity or quality over those that are available in the coffee shops.”
“On a point of clarification, Sir. If that idea is simplistic, can I ask from the Parliamentary Secretary to state whether it was not too simplistic to embark on intensive pig farming from 1975 to 1985 which resulted in untold misery? Was that also not simplistic? Dr Lee Boon Yang: Sir, the programme to embark on intensive pig farming was to meet a need because, in the early 1970s, many pig farmers were located in the catchment areas. As a result of development for increased catchment capacity, many of these farmers had to be relocated. The question then was: should such farmers be phased out immediately upon relocation, or should they be given the opportunity to continue farming? The decision of the day was to allow them to continue. But in view of the shortage of land in Singapore, they were told that it was not possible to continue farming pigs under the old method, that if they wanted to continue farming pigs, land would be made available to them but they would have to switch to intensive modern pig farming in order to upgrade their productivity, efficiency and competitiveness. Sir, next I will touch on the Member for Toa Payoh's comments. The Member for Toa Payoh spoke about the need to control increasing hawker food prices. Sir, my Ministry has no intention to control and to regulate hawker food prices because the prices of cooked food, like other items of goods and services, should be best determined by free market forces. At this point, I would like to thank the Member for Whampoa for his far more erudite explanation of why prices of such goods and services cannot be just controlled by regulations.”
“And whenever it is necessary, we can whiffle them down say, from 80 sq km, it has to come down to 60 sq km, or it may be much less. So we may have to whittle them down to smaller areas. But I do not think he can dispute that in the interim, say, 3-5 years, before these lands are really needed for housing development or whatever, these lands could be put to optimum use. We have been stressing on optimum utilization of land. Here is one area, Sir, that I would like the Minister for the Environment to point out that they have.”
“But, Sir, looking at the problem in another perspective, ie, the farmers in phase 1 have been phased out completely and they have moved out, big tracts of land have been left unattended. We had occasion to hear from PAP Members on both sides of the House making the point that some of their constituents who had moved out, say, from Bukit Batok, notice that these lands have not been put to good use. And we have also heard the answer from the Hon. Minister for National Development when he explained that it is not possible to just move quickly into an area that has been vacated. I can well understand him. It takes time for conceptual planning from the drawing board to be translated into reality. In this respect, the hon. Member for Chua Chu Kang has also suggested that these lands that have been laid to waste, so to speak, could be put to good use. In this regard, could the Hon. Minister for the Environment not consider leasing out these lands for some other agricultural purposes or development which will not cause any pollution? For example, Singaporeans have a name for eating durians and every year millions of dollars are being spent. Why can we not have some durian plantations in Singapore? And with that in mind, I heard the Minister of State for Defence say that the Ministry of Defence needs land for training purposes. So if durian cultivation is allowed now, the saplings in the initial stages will become sturdy trees in years to come. Why can we not keep these lands which make good training ground for the Defence Ministry? But lest the Minister of State jumps and say, "On a point of clarification", may I say, Sir, I am aware that in land scarce Singapore, every bit of land is important.”
“So I would make another strong plea to the Ministry of the Environment to take a careful look in the resettlement of people whose livelihood is affected in a quantifiable sense, and if necessary a more than sympathetic consideration should be given, rather than saying, "Look, these people have been adequately compensated for, and maybe we can help them by way of giving them a shop-house in an HDB estate." Far from it. If they have a shop-house, Sir, my contention is that they would have to spend quite a lot of money into the business, not forgetting that the compensation they get would have to go towards paying for the flat. But if they were given, say, a hawker stall, then less capital will be needed, and if it fails the chances are the loss will not be so great. Only then they could try and turn to or adapt themselves to a new environment and make a living through hawking. Now, I make this plea, Sir, because I notice that the provision under this subhead is hardly sufficient. 11.30 am Sir, talking about the affected farmers, there is another amendment which I moved, and this concerns the development of farm lands at Punggol and South Seletar. It comes under the Agricultural Planning and Development Services. We have heard from the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for the Environment that pig farming will be phased out and there is an implementation plan. First of all, I would like to know what progress, if any, has been made in this regard. If there has been progress made in the implementation plan, ie, that it is being considered, contrived or whatever, is the Ministry now ready to disclose the plans to this House?”
“But that cool comfort will not last long for sooner than the customer steps out of the supermarket, he or she comes back to square one. So, I would say that the wet market, together with the hawker centre, should be built. Otherwise, Sir, I anticipate that many stallholders will not be able to eke out a living if they continue to be market stallholders. The question is: do we want the situation where we say we are caring and concerned but we are forgetting these people? Then, Sir, another problem that I wish to address this House concerns the resettlement of pig farmers, vegetable farmers and other residents, not only from Punggol but a lot of other places. Many of these people have been farming the land for generations and when clearance comes, they come to the MPs, "Please help us obtain a hawker stall to sell cooked food or market produce." These requests are sent to the Ministry of the Environment, Hawkers Department. Sometimes they help when the question of hardship can be established, but most times they say, "No, it is not possible." Why is it not possible? "Because the rules are there on grounds of hardship," and so on and so forth. But it is more because these people have been given adequate compensation. I highlight this with a case in which I had to fight very hard, the only case which I succeeded on grounds of hardship. One farrier, who was widowed, was compensated with an amount of about $130,000. With that compensation she bought a flat at Lorong Ah Soo, which is Hougang South, in Paya Lebar. And she came to me and it took me more than a year before I could impress upon the Minister concerned that here was a genuine case of hardship.”
“Sir, I now come to this question of the development and improvement of market and hawker sites. I was a bit surprised and taken aback at the suggestion to stop building these wet markets. I do not think it would be a good idea if the Ministry of the Environment, or for that matter the Housing and Development Board, were to scrap wet markets. Wet markets have been part of the way of life of Singapore. Just now the Member for Braddell Heights mentioned his problem of the old market in Lim Tua Tow Road. I know that market very well. It was reconstructed and renovated, and so is Simon Road Market in Serangoon Gardens. What I wish to point out, Sir, is this, In a wet market there are wet and dry goods. It is a good meeting place for housewives to gather. Do hon. Members in this House not agree with me that they find the market-place an interesting place because they meet a lot of their constituents? On Sundays, I see my good friend, the hon. Member for Changi, going to the market at Hougang Avenue 7. It is being renovated. And I am pleased to get a feedback from him. The goods there are wet and dry. I would appeal very strongly to the Minister for the Environment to impress upon his colleague the Hon. Minister for National Development not to stop building wet markets. If wet markets are not built, I am afraid you entail higher costs to the people. Let me give an example, Sir. If one wishes to shop in cool comfort in a supermarket, inevitably one has to pay a price. In a wet market, Sir, one can walk through from stall to stall and even choose. But in the supermarket, things are all pre-packed to the exact weight and exact price. The choice is just a matter of quantity and cool comfort.”
“Because our arrival time was not the same, I did not notice but some of my good friends noticed that one refuse truck suffered this problem; the truck was dripping liquid waste as it went along. Sir, I was going to ask what steps are being taken to maintain and upkeep these vehicles, and what encouragement or further encouragement has been given, by way of campaigns or whatever, that could be directed at all households, be it in the HDB estates or private housing estates. It is important to know that Singapore, with a high density of population living in, say, 5,000 per sq km, endemic diseases like cholera could well spread very fast. So an awareness of the importance of using these plastic bags to wrap up whatever refuse or waste could be mounted so that we will not have a situation where an endemic disease is spread very fast. I liken this to the fly menace that I brought to the attention of this House and the Minister for the Environment, in his reply, said that he had visited the refuse disposal ground at Lorong Halus and found that, because there were not enough workers, the contractors did not supply enough earth and it became a breeding ground for flies. Therefore, we can see that, in a place like Singapore, if environmental action concerning public health is not properly taken, we may face a very serious situation. Sir, I come to the question of cleansing vehicles. I notice, in the Development Estimates, there is a provision of $7 million for the purchase of new mechanical sweepers. This would help reduce the dependence on manual labour and to cut down costs. But, on the other hand, I think we should have more mechanization as far as the sweeping and collection of garbage is concerned.”
“Sir, in fact, I had wanted to speak as and when the amendments come up, the first of which concerns Solid Waste Management. And the amendment that I had intended to move was under Subhead M B-02 Project 8102 of the Development Estimates - a new vehicle workshop at Eunos Industrial Estate - for which the building cost of $9.6 million had almost been expended, requiring only a $1,000 for FY 85, and this is a mere revote. In other words, I take it that this new vehicle workshop at Eunos Industrial Estate, has not only been completed but is also operational. Now, the point I wish to make concerns maintenance and the upkeep of the vehicles, ie, the garbage disposal trucks. I remember the previous Minister for the Environment did point out to this House that some of these garbage trucks should have been properly maintained and that the refuse or solid waste collected by these trucks should have been properly kept. So we had this campaign on the use of plastic bags. As a result, Sir, most households, if not all, were urged to wrap up the refuse in plastic bags for collection and disposal by these workers. Sir, the point here is that these workers, I understand, are very few and less and less of them will be available because this is a job which very few will take in a situation of tight employment. But what happens is that, from time to time, when one follows behind these refuse trucks, one notices that this solid waste has, in fact, become liquid in one way or another, and therefore the liquid drips down from the truck, leaving behind a long trail of watery waste. In actual fact, Sir, this morning I was asked by some good friends, hon. Members in this House, if I had come to Parliament House via High Street. I said yes.”
“Sir, I have three amendments*. I will, with your permission, Sir, range over them.”
“Some 688 vacant market produce stalls in these 17 markets are being converted into a total of 243 cooked food stalls. These cooked food stalls are earmarked for allocation to the remaining street hawkers and other HDB resettlement cases. Sir, for public health reasons, we need to separate cooked food stalls from market produce stalls. In addition, a cooked food stall also requires a certain area for refreshment purposes for the customers to sit. So, approximately three vacant market produce stalls will only yield one cooked food stall. Hence the conversion of vacant market produce stalls to cooked food stalls can only be carried out if there is a sufficient number of vacant market produce stalls. My Ministry will continue to monitor the situation and to identify any other markets which have a sufficient number of vacant stalls for conversion.”
“Much to the surprise of the officers who went through all the difficulty of interviewing and writing up reports, only 107 of those who were offered stalls, in other words, only 18% of those who were eligible, finally accepted the stalls. The rest came up and told us, 'Sorry, we do not want the stall. Can you please give us another stall in such and such a centre?", which invariably is one of the more popular thriving food centres. Sir, the priority for cooked food stalls has to be given to the existing licensed street hawkers, as a result we find that the allocation of such stalls to other needs to be stringently monitored. And since we cannot satisfy every applicant who wants to have a stall in a popular centre, we regret that there will always be appeals from the MPs and the continuing exercise of assessing such applicants, and finally a reply, "A cooked food stall is not available. Would you take an alternative market produce stall?" Unfortunately, the operation of a market produce stall requires more expertise, more effort, and the profit margins are probably less than in a cooked food stall, As a result, many of these applicants who were offered a market produce stall did not take it up. On the other point raised by the Member for Chong Boon about the conversion of market produce stalls to cooked food stalls, two years ago my Ministry together with the Housing and Development Board conducted a survey on all the wet markets in Singapore with a view to determining how many vacant stalls were available and whether they were suitable for the conversion from market produce stalls to cooked food stalls. A total of 17 wet markets were found to have a sufficient number of market produce stalls and they were suitable for conversion.”
“The Member also touched on inadequate car parks at the Pasir Panjang food centre. I will certainly have my Ministry officials look into this matter of car park facilities. Regarding the Dover Road Food Centre, I would like to inform the Member that it is a food centre under the management of HDB, and I am sure any further improvement that is required will be looked into by HDB. Sir, I come now to the Member for Chong Boon who raised a subject that is very close to the hearts of all hon. Members in this House, and that is, the subject of application for hawker licence. Sir, we are all very familiar with the large number of people who are persistently applying for hawker licences, and the result is invariably the rejection of their applications. Sir, in 1971, my Ministry embarked on a programme to resite all street hawkers into proper food centres and markets. The reason was to contain the problem of street hawkers causing pollution, obstruction and congestion. In 1974, my Ministry ceased issuing new hawker licences except to those who meet the criteria for hardship cases. Sir, the programme of resettling street hawkers is almost completed now. We have at the present moment another 546 street hawkers waiting to be resettled. We expect the programme to be completed by the end of this year. We are fully aware of the frequent requests for hawker stalls by members of the public, Between 1982 and 1984, my Ministry received a total of 15,088 applications for hawker stalls under the hardship criteria. We investigated each and every case, interviewed the applicants, and after assessment we found 580 of them meet our criteria, and hawker stalls were accordingly offered to these 580.”
“Passing the buck. Dr Lee Boon Yang: On the question of finding a place for some people to conduct small scale hawking, I regret to inform the Member that my Ministry is not in favour of bringing back street hawkers or unlicensed hawking activities, However, if the Member for Bukit Batok or any other hon. Member in the House feels that they have the premises, private or public premises, such as community centres, community halls, where they want to organize bazaars, jumble sales and suchlike activities on weekends, then my Ministry will definitely consider such applications, And where they can provide the necessary public health requirements, like toilet facilities, for the number of people who are expected to come to such bazaars, then we will certainly agree to the conduct of such bazaars. The Member for Pasir Panjang, Sir, has brought up the question of the Pasir Panjang Food Centre and asked whether it would be improved, upgraded. The existing Pasir Panjang Food Centre, Sir, was built in 1978 with a total of 28 stalls. It is a single storey building, a fairly high roof, ranging from 3,3 to 5 metres. It is an open-sided structure which was located in a park shaded by trees and is being provided with ceiii,ng fans for ventilation. He mentioned that the Centre may be rather uncomfortable. Well, l would like to inform him that during this year my Ministry will be improving the centre in terms of providing insulation panels underneath the roof which will reduce the heat load into the structure and thereby making it a far more comfortable place. At the same time extension work at the Food Centre is being carried out which will provide 17 new cooked food stalls. The extension is expected to be completed by June 1985.”
“They have got the kind of management which some of the schools do not have in setting up school management councils or advisory committees. Perhaps we can learn something from them. It is in this light that I file the two amendments, Sir. Finally, on the question of junior colleges. I would very much like a junior college to be built in Hougang New Town, not in Punggol Constituency which will be too big by that time. But I think there is no loss whatsoever in making this small request.”
“For example, in the Hougang New Town, only one primary school has been completed and is operational only a few weeks ago, and it has been handed over to the Catholic Mission, I am pleased to put on record that, through the intervention of the Minister of State for Education and Communications and Information, as well as the Senior Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Education, the Catholic Mission has been able to take over this primary school and is contributing 20% of the building cost. That I would say, Sir, is a recognition of the missionaries' contribution towards education in Singapore. I believe that when the House first met on 25th February, 1985, many hon. Members in this House took the oath on the Bible, whether it be the Douay version or the King James'. It shows that the missionaries have done a lot for Singapore in terms of education. In this respect, Sir,[ would like to make another request and, that is, while recognizing the contribution that these missionaries have made, would not the Minister consider helping them? I take cognizance of the fact that today, with affluence, this zest for missionary work is not entirely satisfactory. As a result not many are coming forth so that quite a number of these Christian missionaries are faced with the problem of recruiting sufficient numbers of people to carry on their mission. In this respect, would not the Minister consider helping them? Since they have made their contribution, we should not only recognize them but because they have served well and will continue to contribute to education, we should allow them more time to repay. Instead of repaying 20% of the capital cost over a period of three years, let us not be too stringent. All I am asking is more time.”
“Thank you, Sir. Sir, I had intended to move two amendments to the Development Estimates that cover the primary and secondary schools as well as the junior colleges. I note that about a third of the Development budget or $148.57 million is being set aside for the construction of new primary and secondary schools and junior colleges. There will be a total of about 43 schools and two junior colleges to be constructed in the financial year 1985. The better part of the time during the last 11/2 days has been spent on general education, but I want to shift the debate to the question of the building programme for both the primary and secondary schools as well as the need for junior colleges in the various HDB New Towns. For example, in Hougang New Town, the better part of which will be coming up in Punggol Constituency by the late 1980s, there will be some 20,000 to 25,000 units. I am not particularly happy - I would say I am rather disappointed - that so far only one primary school has been completed. In the last 15 years several new towns have been built by HDB - and that has resulted in massive population shifts. In the process, a lot of schools, both primary and secondary, have had to give way to new ones and the old ones have to be upgraded in terms of facilities as well as amenities. One can go down the line. For example, on the relocation of schools. The original project cost was revised from $31 million to $57.6 million and requiring a revote of $1.468 million to complete the relocation of schools. The point I wish to make and the elucidation that I wish to seek of the Minister for Education is that, are there going to be schools which will be better located?”
“May I have your permission to speak now, because I have two amendments* Nos. (14) and (15) which concern schools, so that I need not move them later?”
“Moreover, because of our size and dense population, the attendant environmental pollution will be undesirable. The PUB has not yet decided to proceed with the project. Other alternatives such as natural gas are being looked into. As stated in the MTI Addendum to the President's Address, the PUB is negotiating with Petronas on the supply of natural gas from Malaysia. It is willing to buy natural gas on fair commercial terms, and will negotiate for a long term contract to ensure security of supply at prices competitive with fuel oil. Discussions are continuing, and are progressing satisfactorily. MAIN AND DEVELOPMENT ESTIMATES OF SINGAPORE FOR THE FINANCIAL YEAR 1ST APRIL, 1985 TO 31 ST MARCH, 1986 Order read for resumed consideration in Committee of Supply [5th Allotted Day]. [Mr Speaker in the Chair] 11.19 am Head L -”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, before I ask Question No. 7, may I say that I am a member of the PUB Board, and this question is asked in the interest of the public. Sir, Question No. 7. PUBLIC UTILITIES BOARD (Alternative fuel for electricity generation) 7. Mr Ng Kah Ting asked the Minister for Trade and Industry, as the possibility of a disruption in oil supplies in the future cannot be ruled out despite the current depressed world oil prices, whether the Public Utilities Board has taken the necessary steps to diversify its energy resources for electricity generation. BG Lee Hsien Loong (for the Minister for Trade and Industry): Mr Speaker, Sir, although oil prices have come off their peak, the Public Utilities Board has not relaxed its efforts to search for an alternative fuel for electricity generation. The various alternatives considered include nuclear energy, coal and natural gas. Nuclear power plants are low in fuel costs but high in capital costs. Although nuclear energy is "clean" - nuclear plants do not emit products of combustion as do fossil fuel-burning plants - it presents many other problems. Firstly, nuclear reactors are only economical above a certain minimum size. Singapore is unlikely to consume this much electricity until after the year 2000. Then there are problems of safety and disposal of nuclear waste, which are particularly hazardous in densely populated Singapore. In 1982, we conducted a study to look into the feasibility of building a coal-fi red power station on Pulau Tekong. Coal would be cheaper than oil. However, unlike oil and natural gas, coal is very difficult to handle and use. A large area is required for storage of coal and disposal of ash.”
“On a point of order. I would like to know what the Member for Whampoa is trying to make out.”
“They know your views but you are making political capital out of their views. I am only more interested in their well-being, the dollars and cents. [Applause]. I am not interested in playing to the gallery to get the applause. I am not. I know what I am doing. The Member for Potong Pasir also tries to join in. Come and try over my dead body! I am glad, Sir, that the Minister for Finance has been kind because he said that we are able to penetrate a chink in his armour. In other words, he is a kind-hearted man. He has got great feelings for these people and, I think the pensioners owe him, I would not say a dinner, but a thank you. On that note, Sir, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. The sum of $11,515,620 for Head W ordered to stand part of the Main Estimates.”
“Sir, I do not accept the word of thanks from the Member for Anson because it is obvious that in trying to thank me he deflected from the main theme of my speech. I tried to appeal to the Minister for Finance about the plight of those pensioners, but he very cleverly made good use of the time and your indulgence, Sir, by going on to something else. I do not thank him for that. But I would like to draw the attention of this House that if this is the kind of debate that we are going to have, then the real issues of the people, those whom we stand up to fight for, will be forgotten and this House will be treated as what is known as parliamentary theatrics. The TV is there. It is brought into the homes of all Singaporeans. Here, I am discussing and pleading with the Hon. Minister for Finance to look at the plight of the pensioners. Here, I have a Member of the Opposition, supposedly to be known as a learned Member, I am no lawyer, but I understand the innuendoes, the nuances that come from it, and therefore this issue has been sidetracked. But I will bring it back and put it in proper perspective so that all Singaporeans will know and, more particularly, those pensioners, especially the Pensioners Association of Singapore. They have written to me.”
“' Sir, I am aware of the fact that these officers have given yeoman service and who may be on the top of their salary scale - I say "may be" because I happened to hear the plight of one very senior civil servant who retired about 10 years ago and he said that with his pension today he was not able to live because he is well over 60 and beset with health problems, and we have been talking about looking after the aged. 12.30 pm But now I come down the line to those who used to earn $300-$500 before they retired with a gratuity of $3,000-$5,000 and a monthly pension of about $100-$150. With a rising cost of living and inflation, surely, Sir, these people who happen to enjoy good health and are able to live beyond the age of 67,3 years get full pension. But, still, Sir, this is not enough. The former Minister for Finance was kind enough to take note of this plea and he introduced some form of financial help ($75-$100) known as the Singapore Allowance to help alleviate - I say "alleviate", not entirely helping them to overcome - their plight. But for the record, this lot of people have helped to make Singapore what it is today. I think rightly, Sir, given that kind of situation, Government should be more than generous to come forth and lend a helping hand, which they deserve from time to time.”
“Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head W be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead WA-01 of the Main Estimates. Sir, in moving this amendment, I merely wish to bring to the attention of the Hon. Minister for Finance the plight of some pensioners, I say some pensioners, not all, particularly those who retired in 1975 or earlier, ie, the period before the introduction of the high wage policy of the Government. From time to time, Sir, we read in the papers about genuine grouses made by some of these pensioners drawing very paltry sums which they could not live on. And from time to time in this House, the PAP Backbenchers do try their best to get the Minister for Finance, and his predecessors as well, to increase these pensions, and sometimes we are fortunate to hear that our plea has been well received. Today, I am making the same plea because I note under this Head, there is an increase of 13.9% of the expenditure over the period of 1979-83. I was looking at the various items and what caught my atten- tion were items such as Object Group 331o item (3). For that item, there is an increase of $25 million. In other words, Sir, according to the Memorandum, the explanation is that: 'This reflects the increase in the number of officers retiring from or leaving the service on completion of their contracts as well as a revision in the rates of gratuity payable.”
“Would he get the HDB to find a way out to alleviate their harsh experience in the light of the present economic recession?”
“Thank you, Sir. I just want to make three points. First of all, I wish to thank the Minister for National Development for his quick reply to my questions when he made the Ministerial statement on the HDB having to adopt a new accounting system and, not to my surprise at all, the fee paid to Price Waterhouse, as mentioned, was $2.2 million and the cost of installing the hardware of the computerized system was $8 million and $0.8 million for the software. But I suspect, Sir, that this will be very much more. For the record, I would like to say "thank you" to him. I will move on to two other matters. One is on resettlement which was very aptly raised by my good friends, the Members for Nee Soon and Chua Chu Kang who made requests to the Hon. Minister to be more humane and to the Resettlement Department officials to make it less traumatic for those affected by clearance. But I wish, Sir, to add that costs have gone up, and our Prime Minister had said that we should make it less traumatic for them. So I am requesting for an upward revision of ex gratia compensation to all those affected by clearance because they are a group of our people who have to make way in the public interest so that we can develop to a higher stage. The next point concerns the resettlement policies. I do not wish to involve the House into a lot of illustrations, but suffice to say that there should be a total review of the resettlement policies that are now being carried out by the Resettlement Department. Lastly, Sir, we learn that the Hon. Minister has managed to ask the HDB to withhold the rental increase of shophouses. May 1, in the same way, ask him to consider the plight of those who have applied by tender during the 1981-82 period at exorbitantly high rentals?”
“Sir, may I have your permission to speak so that I do not have to move my amendments*, as time is running out?”
“Sir, the Minister of State has not answered the other part of the question, and that is, how long can we live on the patronage of our friendly countries on the use of their land for our military training? BG Lee Hsien Loong: Mr Speaker, Sir, as long as we have friends, we have arrangements with our friends. But we also have arrangements which preserve our position in Singapore. 12.35 pm”
“Thank you, Mr Speaker, Sir, for giving me this chance to speak. I will just ask some questions. I wish to seek some elucidation and at the same time to express my concern or reservation on some matters pertaining to our national defence. Yesterday, when I heard the answer of the Minister of State for Defence and Trade and Industry with regard to the limitations of land for training, I was more than surprised to learn at the same time that there are some friendly countries giving us land for training of our reservists and national servicemen. Sir, my question is, how long will this fortune last? The other matter is about the expenditure on national defence. In the development estimates, there is only an increase of $6 million. Whilst we make up for deficiency in numbers, we must make up for the capital-intensive per capita of our national servicemen. I am reminded of one Chinese saying, which is an imponderable, ( ) "Yan ping ching rih, yung chai yee chau." The First Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Defence (Mr Goh Chok Tong): Mr Speaker, Sir, the Member for Anson last year alleged that an officer was wrongly promoted by the SAF.”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, may I ask of the hon. Minister two questions arising from his Ministerial Statement. First, what was the cost involved in getting the consultant to evolve the new kind of accounting system for the HDB? In other words, the consultation fee and the amount involved in this whole exercise. Secondly, with the prospect of having to buy back land from the Government after lst April this year, may I ask of the Minister whether land will be bought back as encumbered land or land with vacant possession?”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, I have two supplementary questions. First, is the question of counsellors. Can the Minister of State for Home Affairs and Community Development enlighten this House on what form of training do counsellors get? The second question is whether these counsellors are adequately trained, and how do they go about counselling the addicts?”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, can the Hon. Minister of State for Home Affairs and Community Development enlighten this House as to whether the crime situation has somewhat improved since the introduction of the NPP into the housing estates or areas as mentioned by him in his reply?”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, since it is apparent that the letting off of fire-crackers is widespread, particularly in all the housing estates, could the Hon. Minister in-charge assure this House that other measures besides police patrols are in hand to inform or educate the public that such behaviour is not only anti-social but will not do well for the country?”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, just one supplementary question. Would the Minister ask the HDB to consider the question of siting tenants in the shophouses and whether the results of the survey could be reported to Parliament in the shortest possible time?”
“All facts relevant and material to their deaths would be investigated by the police and tendered in evidence to the State Coroner. The practice in the Coroner's Inquiries is to allow the next-of-kin of the deceased persons, either by themselves or their solicitors, to examine and challenge these facts, and also to tender their own evidence, if any. All these would be evaluated by the State Coroner who would make his findings accordingly. Coroner's Inquiries are public inquiries, Their proceedings are open to public scrutiny. The findings of the Coroner would be conclusive as regards the death of the deceased persons. The boards of inquiry established by the Minister for Defence do not have the powers of the State Coroner, and rightly so. Their witnesses are not protected by the same rules of evidence as those that apply in the courts. The publication of the board's reports could therefore meet with legal difficulties. Besides, there may be security objections in making public the reports, as the boards investigate also the training the servicemen were involved in and the remedial actions to be taken. It is therefore unnecessary and inappropriate to make public the reports into the deaths of PTE Leow and OCT Tan.”
“Jeyaretnam asked the First Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Defence whether the Committees of Inquiry appointed to inquire into the deaths of Pte Leow Kok Beng, National Serviceman, on the 31st of January 1985 and Officer Cadet Tan Peng Kian on the 2nd of February 1985 have completed their investigations and submitted their reports and whether the Minister will make available to Parliament the reports. BG Lee Hsien Loong (for the First Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Defence): Mr Speaker, Sir, the inquiries into the deaths of national servicemen of PTE Leow Kok Beng and OCT Tan Peng. Kian are still in progress. They are expected to be completed by early May 1985. The Minister for Defence stated in written answer to a similar question by the Member for Anson on 19 October 1984, that the death of a serviceman, especially a national serviceman, is a matter of grave concern, not only to the Ministry of Defence, but also to the general public. He gives the assurance again that whenever a serviceman is killed or seriously injured in service, the Armed Forces Council, chaired by the Minister for Defence, directs an investigation into the matter. The board of inquiry is chaired by a senior officer from a different unit, or even a different Ministry, who has nothing to do with the incident. It investigates not only the immediate cause of the death or injury, but also the training the serviceman was involved in, and whether remedial or disciplinary actions are called for. The board reports directly to the Armed Forces Council, which follows up the case with the full resources of the Ministry of Defence. As for making public the results of the investigations, under the law, the deaths of PTE Leow and OCT Tan would be the subject of Coroner's inquiries.”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, may I ask the Hon. Minister of State for Defence and Trade and Industry how effective will this Open Mobilization system be, and what impact will it have on the reservists and the people as a whole? BG Lee Hsien Loong: Mr Speaker, Sir, just to give some sense of scale, to mobilize silently, using couriers and messengers, it takes altogether 30 hours for a unit to get ready - 24 hours to bring the people back, and six hours for them to get prepared, equipped, and in battle order. With Open Mobilization, we hope to reduce this time to 12 hours, which means six hours to get the people back, assuming we can reach all of them simultaneously, and six hours to get them ready and equipped for war. Can we get all of them back within six hours? A lot depends on how keyed up and clued up the reservists are, and how quickly they respond to the mobilization notices. We can broadcast a message throughout Singapore within a few minutes. It is up to the reservists who have received this message to return as quickly as they can. It is also up to the family members to inform them, if they are not at home and not reachable by television, to go back to camp as quickly as possible. So how many per cent of our reservists we can get back in six hours is yet to be seen. We hope that it will be as good as the system which we have developed using Silent Mobilization. DEATHS OF OFFICER CADET TAN PENG KIAN AND PTE LEOW KOK BENG 2. Mr J.B.”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, is the Hon. Minister of State stating that the Ministry is having second thoughts on the Abortion Act that was introduced and implemented in 1974? And that there being serious consequences on the younger population, particularly the teenagers, it now merits a review of the Abortion Act?”
“I ask the Minister whether he is aware of this.”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, since the Hon. Minister of State has invited hon. Members to contribute suggestions, may I commend him and his Ministry to the intensive in-depth report in the Hansard on the two occasions that this House had to debate on, and that is, the Abortion Bill to liberalize abortions, and the second one was to repeal the Abortion Act, followed by the re-enactment of the new Abortion Bill. In those two pieces of legislation, I am sure the Minister of State and his Ministry will find replete with arguments and suggestions.”
“Mr Speaker, Sir, just one final supplementary question. Does not the Parliamentary Secretary agree with me that all this means additional expenditure, resulting in having less for savings?”