Dame Meg Hillier
MP for Hackney South and Shoreditch · Labour (Co-op) · United Kingdom
“On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker, I have huge respect for the Minister, but she has said that she will not take any interventions. She is a very good Minister, and I trust that she will answer in detail the points that have been raised in the House today; having discussions with her and the Government after the debate is too late…”
“My hon. Friend talks about who makes our laws, and she has talked in articles that she has written about the primacy of this place. If the Bill goes forward, is she willing to accept amendments?”
“I welcome my right hon. Friend to her place and thank her for that response, which demonstrates the complications of these schemes. I asked the National Audit Office to look into this, and yesterday the Public Accounts Committee published its report on compensation schemes, suggesting that a central body be established.”
“I am pleased by my right hon. Friend’s answer, but she is in a unique position across Government to ensure that we are protecting not only women, but those who are blind or have visual impairments, who really value this technology.”
“I welcome the Chancellor’s clampdown on speculation and leaks ahead of the Budget; it is certainly an important step he has taken. On the issue of certainty, the National Wealth Fund is a critical investor in crowding in private investment around the UK. I noted that he has changed the remit.”
“Further to the points made by my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth East (Tom Hayes), it is important that we talk here and that we have diplomacy, but what practical actions are the Foreign Office and the Ministry of Defence taking to ensure that there is a review of physical defence and security, so that we send a clear message to t…”
The complete record
Every one of 4,811 lines we hold for Dame Meg Hillier, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 10 of 97.
“I associate myself with the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Kensington and Bayswater (Joe Powell), and others, and I very much welcome the Deputy Prime Minister’s written statement today, and her speech highlighting why the Government are acting and what they are doing. We know that this was a systemic failure over many generations and across many parts of Government. In fact, in 2018 the late James Brokenshire issued a ministerial direction to civil servants to ensure that the original money was spent to remove the most dangerous cladding. I spoke to the senior civil servant who had had to go back and speak to predecessors about what had gone wrong, but no one had seen this coming.”
“I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way; I want to repeat the point I made earlier, to see if I can get a response this time. We knew at various stages that there needed to be skilled people, from surveyors to contracting, to carry out the remediation work. Looking back, does he regret that perhaps some of that effort was not put into developing those skills earlier, so that constituents of ours who are still waiting for remediation could perhaps have had it done more quickly?”
“It palliated that pain and got her to a place where, although she was unable to eat for two and a half months, she was saved and her pain was managed. Our best friends were the pain nurses and the anaesthetists. I have other examples of another family member, but I do not have time to go into them today. I hope my daughter forgives me for raising her personal situation in the House today—”
“We were the first country in the world to recognise palliative care as a separate profession, and some of the tragedies we have heard about today arose from a failure in that system. A failure in palliative care and support is not a reason to continue. I have personal experience of this. Many hon. Members will remember when my daughter was very ill a few years ago. I had not intended to speak about this today, but she was admitted to hospital as a teenager with acute pancreatitis. The Bill would not have covered her, but I did not know for five days—in fact, many months—whether she would live or die. For those first five days she did not sleep and she did not eat, and she was crying out in pain. I saw what good medicine can do.”
“Friend the Member for Hackney North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott)—about those who are vulnerable for other reasons and who could be coerced or persuaded down this route. I have had the privilege of being around the hospice movement for nearly 50 years, as my father established one of the first national health service hospices in this country. I saw what he did as a doctor in a world where death was not talked about, where surgeons would say, “We’ll whip this bit out and you’ll be fine.” He would be one of the first to have to tell the patient that they were actually going to die. The work that he did, on the back of giants such as Dame Cicely Saunders, is something we should be proud of.”
“In my brief remarks today, I want to touch on principle, policy and practice. We have to be very clear that we are having a debate not just on the principle, but on the Bill. The principle at stake is that we would cross a Rubicon whereby someone who is terminally ill, according to the definition in the Bill, is assisted by the state to die. That is a fundamental change in the relationship between the state and the citizen, and the patient and their doctor. If we have a scintilla of doubt about allowing the state that power, we should vote against the Bill today. Like most of us, I came into politics partly to stand up for the vulnerable, and we have heard heartbreaking stories today about those vulnerable at the point of death. We have also heard—and I concur completely with my right hon.”
“I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. She is absolutely right. When we see the system working, it is great, but some of what we have heard today has referred to a failure of the system. That cannot be a reason for us to accept the Bill today. For more than 30 years I have been scrutinising the policies and actions of public bodies and seeing the mistakes that they make, both in the care sector when I was in local government and more recently as Chair of the Public Accounts Committee.”
“Let me say this to those Members: if someone who was English, a bright woman in her 60s, was unable to challenge what was said to her and to have that conversation with a doctor, just think what passing the Bill today would mean for many more vulnerable people. I thank the House for its indulgence.”
“Cicely Saunders campaigned and triumphed to ensure that we had one of the best hospice movements in the world. If Members have any doubt in their minds about the impact of the Bill on people who do not have the same capacity as those who are talking about this in the television and radio studios, they should think of those in my constituency who have poor English, or the woman who came to see me a month ago with terrible pain in her gall bladder. Removing it would have been a simple daytime operation, but she did not understand what the doctor had told her, and she was not going to have her gall bladder taken out because she did not know what it meant to be without a gall bladder.”
“I will not go into the details, because others have already done so, and I am sure that many more will, but we made coercive control illegal in 2015, and although the Bill refers to safeguards, I fear that that will not pick up coercive control. When we ruled it to be illegal, we thought that was a moment of progress in the House. Given the time, I will now move on to some of the practical challenges. My constituents are struggling to see doctors face to face, and seeing the same doctor twice seems like a miracle in today’s Britain. My right hon. Friend the Health Secretary is trying to sort it out, but it will take a long time. We need to sort out our battling health service, we need to support palliative care, and we need to discuss what a good death is.”
“Where I do agree with the hon. Gentleman is that the time is not right. We have not had the proper discussions about palliative care. Some of us have been trying to talk about it for many years, and we need to ensure that this debate does not stop today, but the Bill must stop today. It is not developed to deliver the palliative care resource that we need. I do want to touch on the policy, but let me first return to the point that I was making before the hon. Gentleman’s intervention. We have seen many failures in the system, including contaminated blood, and whistleblowing in the NHS repeatedly shows such failures. There is great trust among those who support the Bill that these safeguards will deliver.”
“I draw the House’s attention to the fact that a family member works for Allied Irish Bank, and to the fact that I am a trustee of a pension fund. I want to ask my hon. Friend about the remit letter for the Financial Conduct Authority. Just as the pushmi-pullyu in “Dr Dolittle” did not know which way to go, there is a danger that if we try to pursue the secondary objective while protecting consumers, consumers could lose out. Could she set out clearly how she expects the FCA to ensure that it maintains its approach of protecting consumers? Could she pick up on the comment from the hon. Member for Wyre Forest (Mark Garnier) about whether there will be any move to mandate pension funds to invest in UK infrastructure?”
“The path to carbon capture and storage is littered with failure: three previous projects never got off the ground, despite lots of taxpayer money going into them. What precisely are the Government going to do to ensure that this project delivers?”
“T2. Schools are closing across inner London, and across London more widely, for various reasons, leaving premises empty or at risk of being sold off. What strategic oversight is the Secretary of State taking to ensure that we get the best value for our children from these properties?”
“I have many tower blocks in my constituency, and too many constituents find that their lifts are regularly broken and are not getting fixed. This is not just down to individual landlords—it cuts across the piece. Is it not time for a debate in Government time about how the four main lift companies organise their structures and maintenance contracts? This is stopping people from living their lives, and very often leaving them trapped in or outside their flats.”
“Q2. In Hackney, nearly 4,000 children who could fill eight primary schools are in temporary accommodation, in many cases outside London. That is bad for their future opportunities, and it is ripping our communities apart. I welcome the Government’s pledge to build new homes, but will the Prime Minister ensure that those who cannot have a roof over their heads are a top priority in that long queue for new housing?”
“We have had a tumultuous period: Brexit, the pandemic, the mini-Budget, 14 years of austerity, delayed and failed decisions, particularly on capital spending—we have had three carbon capture and storage projects that have never come to fruition—the saga and cost of stop-and-start on High Speed 2, 700,000 pupils in schools that are not fit for purpose, public services on their knees, and public sector net debt at its highest rate since the second world war.”
“I have to say that I am disappointed that so much of this Budget was revealed before today, which is not normal practice. Going forward, I hope that constituents and the MPs representing them will be the first to know about major issues, and that courtesy to this House and the Treasury Committee will be a hallmark of Treasury engagement. This Budget comes at a very exciting time, but it is a difficult one for the Chancellor. She has made it very clear that she will deliver certainty, and she has inherited one hell of a mess.”
“I have spent 13 years examining public spending in enormous detail, including nine years as Chair of the Public Accounts Committee. Like me, the Chancellor was a scrutineer: she chaired the Business and Trade Committee, and she understands the importance of scrutiny. I am very clear that the Treasury Committee will not give the Chancellor an easy ride, because she is a highly capable woman who can come and explain all her decisions to us. She knows that it is our job to rigorously examine the detail of the Budget next Wednesday, when she will appear in front us. She will be getting a bit of what she dished out as Chair of the Business and Trade Committee. I know that she will expect nothing less than robust challenge—if she were not up to it, she would not be in her post.”
“The rules set in 2011 lasted three years, but in the last three years we have had three different fiscal mandates, two different supplementary debt caps, and one supplementary borrowing target. I think the Chancellor knows that when she is in front of the Treasury Committee we may challenge her and ask her about her fiscal rules, but I have certainty—we all have certainty—that she will be in her post for long enough to stick to the fiscal rules that she has set. They will have a longevity beyond the previous Government. I welcome this Budget, and pay tribute to my right hon. Friend. The UK’s first woman Chancellor stood at that Dispatch Box, and another glass ceiling was shattered. She should be proud; we are proud, and I congratulate her on that achievement. It is my first Budget as Chair of the Treasury Committee.”
“Gentleman’s watch as Chancellor—although he did some things about covid that we would all recognise needed to be done, and we recognised it at the time—that the bounce back loans led to a significant amount of the fraud that resulted from covid. Now my right hon. Friend the Chancellor has stood up, and what has happened? The FTSE is up—and it has gone up by more since I stood up, by 1.6 percentage points, unless anyone can update me—and the OBR has said that this will add growth to the economy. The right hon. Gentleman also attacked the Chancellor on fiscal rules. Let us be clear: fiscal rules are not a new thing. Since 2011 there have been seven fiscal mandates, five supplementary debt targets, two supplementary borrowing targets, and an investment limit.”
“When I was in my former role as Chair of the Public Accounts Committee, there was common ground at times with the Prime Minister of the day. In private, when I had cause to meet the right hon. Gentleman, he was courteous, thoughtful and respectful, had the national interest at heart, and, when it came to constitutional matters, was in very much the same place as me. I was therefore very disappointed today by the cheek of the right hon. Gentleman in standing up and having the chutzpah to talk about fear, foreboding and uncertainty. It was the 2022 mini-Budget that plunged the country into crisis, put up the mortgage rates of our constituents, and is still leaving people living in great hardship. It was on the right hon.”
“Before I begin, I must—as well as drawing the House’s attention to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests—draw its attention to the fact that I have a family member who works for Allied Irish Bank. I have been looking forward to today. I feel honoured to have been chosen by this House, on a cross-party basis, to chair the Treasury Committee, and to be the first Labour Treasury Committee Chair to welcome the Budget of a Labour Government and our first female Labour Chancellor. I thought that, after a 14-year wait, this would be an exciting moment; and in a moment of sentimentality, realising that for the second time today I would be following the right hon. Member for Richmond and Northallerton (Rishi Sunak), I was going to reflect on an interesting constitutional position.”
“She will be more aware than anyone about the impact on the market if she does not manage debt very carefully. International investors may use the existing debt model, so when she comes in front of the Treasury Committee, I would be interested in talking to her about how she sees this playing out in the international arena.”
“I look forward to seeing the detail on cladding, but it is a big issue in my constituency, where many people’s lives are on hold as a result. The money for affordable homes is incredibly vital for those living in difficult situations, and the Chancellor is absolutely right to have finally funded the compensation schemes for infected-blood victims and for postmasters and postmistresses. When the state makes an error, the state needs to correct it. It should never be a party political football. The Chancellor has had to make tough choices, and she has set out her fiscal rules to provide clarity to the markets and a long-term trajectory for investment and growth. We on the Treasury Committee will watch net financial debt closely to see how the benefit is measured, and it is important for taxpayers and the market that we do so.”
“I do not want to tell tales out of school, but shadow Ministers were dismayed because they could not spend everything that they wanted to spend. As Chair of the Public Accounts Committee at the time, however, I knew what she was talking about and that what was coming was not going to be pretty, so I welcome some of the steps that she has announced today. I have not had a chance to look in the Red Book or at the detail, but the multi-year funding settlements that she has put in place are a great opportunity to give certainty to business and investors in our country. Hopefully, we will finally nail the issue of HS2, which has cost the taxpayer a fortune. We need to get on with that in order to make sure that we are delivering investment for our country.”
“The hon. Lady is a former Chair of the Treasury Committee and I welcome her being a member of it, as she will add great value. As she knows, we will have the opportunity to raise questions with the Chancellor at next week’s hearing. She has now been forewarned that the hon. Lady may ask about this issue. It is important that we recognise good people who provide support in the public sector by watching our public finances, and I always take people on good faith unless I have a reason not to do so. We have an opportunity to explore this issue elsewhere. As a share of GDP, taxes are higher than at any time since world war two. Before the election, my right hon. Friend the Chancellor was tough on spending commitments, and sometimes there was a bit of moaning in the Tea Room.”
“If we read The Daily Telegraph , we will think the world is going to hell in a handcart, but if we read more measured commentary, we will find that the Chancellor is judged well on what she has achieved today. As the hon. Member for Gosport (Dame Caroline Dinenage) said, there are concerns about how the measures in the Budget interact. Alongside sister Committees, we on the Treasury Committee will examine those.”
“Given the headroom that the Chancellor has secured under the new rule, the Treasury Committee will be watching how much she invests, because we need to see the growth that she has set out as her goal. That must be sustainable, so it needs to be productivity growth. There is no single solution, but analysis by the Resolution Foundation found that a 1% increase in capital stock increases productivity by 0.4%. We will look closely at this, and at the spending review in 2025. On tax, the increase in employers’ national insurance to 15% is an understandable measure. It is always challenging to find money in these difficult fiscal circumstances, but the increase brings money into the Exchequer at a faster pace than some of the other measures that were mentioned in the media. I have a wide approach to reading about things.”
“The hon. Lady is a very experienced Member of this House, and she has made her point. She will no doubt have the opportunity to speak in this Budget debate, and there will be plenty of opportunities across the Committee corridor. I welcome her as a fellow Chair. Committee Chairs are already planning how we will work together to ensure that we hold the Government to account, whichever party we represent. The fiscal rules are designed to provide fiscal certainty and predictability, to bring a sense of discipline to the public finances, and to reassure the markets, as I have mentioned. I welcome that stability, as will the markets, as the FTSE increase suggests.”
“Again, we will be working with sister Committees to look at that. The Chancellor also promised to close or reduce the tax gap. That is very bold, and difficult to deliver, so again the Committee will be looking closely at how it is dealt with, as well as at the recovery of fraud moneys, which can be challenging to deliver in any particular timescale.”
“I am sure that the Public Accounts Committee, the Treasury Committee and the Health and Social Care Committee will, among us, hold the Health Secretary to account for his promises to make sure that that is spent well and delivers permanent and lasting change. Also, the capital investment is desperately necessary. It is not that long ago that the previous Government raided capital budgets for day-to-day spending in the NHS. That cannot be allowed to continue. The investment in defence is also absolutely necessary. There is a huge gap in the defence equipment plan, which I know my right hon. Friend the Chancellor is all over, and she is right to make that increase. I look forward to the path to 2.5% of GDP on defence; never again should we be going below that. Local government, although it has had a boost, is going to be very squeezed.”
“Other things such the Animal and Plant Health Agency in Weybridge and Porton Down need investment. These are risky things not to invest in. There is going to be a challenge in public spending even with the increase. Although the increase is welcome, the growth that the Chancellor has called for and is trying to achieve will be required in order to deliver and ensure that we see the spending that we need. Even with the uplift that she highlighted—the 1.5% from next year in day-to-day spending—this is a very tight financial situation for all Government Departments. The boost to the Department of Health and Social Care is staggering, and welcome.”
“We need to trust our elected Mayors to make decisions for their area, and the model shows the direction of trust that, hopefully, this Government will continue to go down. Before the last general election, I listed what I called the big nasties. This was just some of the additional spending that needed to take place on things that had been left, sometimes by the previous Government and, sadly, sometimes by successive Governments. These issues included the reinforced autoclaved aerated concrete failure in schools—I welcome the move finally to deal with that—the long waiting lists in the NHS and overcrowded prisons. From the Red Book, it looks as though the Justice Department has had an uplift, although it is difficult to make a full judgment on that in the few minutes I have had to glance through it.”
“I welcome some of the other measures that have been announced. The increase in the national living wage will make a huge difference for so many of my constituents. They work hard and are certainly not shirkers, as some Conservative Members might call them, but they can barely make ends meet. In my constituency, many people work four days a week because they earn enough to be able to do so. Others have four jobs over seven days, just to hold body and soul together. I welcome the increase and the removal of age discrimination. The devolution model makes so much sense in so many ways. On the Public Accounts Committee, we repeatedly looked at the challenge of bidding for pots of funds, which is costly and time-consuming.”
“If I were the sort of person to get big-headed as a result of the number of Members asking me to do things that are probably not within my remit, I could extend the remit and the power of the Treasury Committee infinitely. Of course, it is the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael) who chairs the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee. As I say, we Chairs are planning to ensure that we work closely together on issues where there is an overlap of interests, and we will pick up on all these issues. The Government have promised openness, transparency and accountability, and I take my Front Benchers at their word on that. I am sure that the Chancellor and her Ministers will be available to talk to people and address Members’ concerns about specific elements of the Budget.”
“I wish her well, and I wish the Labour Government well, of course. I want to see these results on the ground in my constituency. As I say, the Chancellor will appear in front of our Committee, without fear or favour, over the coming years and we will be challenging her and her Ministers to make sure that they stick to the promises that she has laid out today.”
“It seems that the Chair of the Public Accounts Committee—this is something the hon. Gentleman and I have in common—hears promises made by Governments of different colours who do not always deliver as they should. He is absolutely right. In fact, the National Audit Office, at my request, pulled together a document looking at compensation schemes. They are often put together differently—although these particular schemes have now been set—and some do not deliver as well as others. Windrush is also in that mix. This is important, and perhaps the hon. Gentleman is offering his services to the Chancellor to ensure that that money gets out of the door. Of course, his Committee will be examining these programmes as time goes on. It gives me great pleasure to respond to the Budget today and to welcome a Labour Chancellor to her place.”
“My right hon. Friend is right about the challenge it will be for the Government to balance the public finances. A stiff target of 2% in-year efficiency savings has been set for Departments. What is she doing to make sure that the target is robustly applied, and that Departments do not game it by putting off decisions, which will end up costing more?”
“I should draw the House’s attention to the fact I am a leaseholder subject to service charges, as are hundreds of my constituents. There is very often a real lack of transparency and accountability from service providers. Bills are not very clear, and it takes quite a lot of effort to understand them. The Government could regulate, but will the Minister use his convening powers to encourage service providers to do better, prior to discussing legislation that could take a very long time?”
“As Chair of the Treasury Committee, which has responsibility for scrutinising the Budget, I find the timing of this statement a bit frustrating, as we will have questions that presumably cannot be answered until Wednesday. Will the Chief Secretary explain how the guardrails will work? There is the national infrastructure and service transformation authority, the office for value for money and the National Audit Office. What role will each play in reassuring the markets, so that an autumn “sniffle”—that is PSNFL, or public sector net financial liabilities—does not become a winter cold?”
“Nearly 5% of children in Hackney have an EHCP—and that is not accounting for others who have special educational needs. With schools closing, we have an opportunity to create alternative provision. The other week, one poor headteacher told me that more than a third of her reception class has special educational needs, most of which were not identified before the children started school. Clearly, there is a need for a different vision. Will my hon. Friend meet me and people from Hackney—or even visit Hackney—to see what we can do with spare school spaces to motor this change forward in Hackney, faster than is possible nationally?”
“I thank the hon. Member for securing the debate. It is an important issue, and I agree that it is admirable for someone in such circumstances to pull out and see the bigger picture. To add to that bigger picture, in the borough of Hackney, half of which I represent, the forecast cost of temporary accommodation is £54 million this year, and there are eight primary schools’ worth of children, equivalent to 1% of our population, living in temporary accommodation. I am sure that the hon. Member would agree that the position is unsustainable, and I congratulate him again on bringing it to the attention of the House.”
“I thank the hon. Gentleman for his indulgence in giving way again. He is right to cite the National Audit Office’s excellent work to shine a light on the issue. Does he agree that if we turned those many millions spent on temporary accommodation into money spent on good-quality affordable social housing, we would go a long way towards solving this problem?”
“I thank my hon. Friend and neighbour for giving way. I am old enough to remember when bed and breakfasts were commonly used for households who could not get permanent accommodation. That was rightly dealt with because it was a scourge on modern society. Does my hon. Friend agree that we are now slipping massively backwards because of the numbers he outlined, and that we need to find a quick solution, in order to support our constituents?”
“I am very pleased that my hon. Friend is in this post, because she understands the real issues. We have this ridiculous situation where families in my constituency in east London are being sent to other parts of the country, putting pressure on the housing markets and causing issues there. This vicious circle is costing the taxpayer—and households, our schools and our communities—dear. I am sure that she is moving on to what solutions may be available, and she has our support in finding those.”
“Q15. In my constituency, hundreds of leaseholders, tenants and shared owners are living in properties with cladding and other defects. Around the country, there are thousands. Their lives are on hold. Many are facing bankruptcy and delaying having children, unable to move. We have had another change in ministerial responsibility. Will the Deputy Prime Minister take a personal lead on keeping on top of this issue, as years since Grenfell people are still living in limbo and need some hope of change?”
“However junior someone is, they are expected to raise a concern up their chain of command in their specialist area, and if they are still concerned, they can take that to another party within the organisation—a whole other set-up—to make sure that they are challenging the approach taken on risk. That is expected. It is embedded in the training that people look at the risk and make sure that they are calling things out. Nothing is too small, and no one is too junior.”
“That was from a review of the responses to the 2022 civil service people survey—that is a bit of a mouthful. The National Audit Office also highlighted the number in the NHS with the same concern—61.5%. That was in 2024, so this year. Less than two thirds of NHS workers think it is safe to challenge the way things are done; lots of work needs to be done to improve that. There are institutions that do this quite well. Earlier this year, the Public Accounts Committee visited NASA, in Washington. As a result of the tragedies with the Columbia and Challenger space shuttles, the people there have a very open approach to raising concerns.”
“I will come to some good work in other sectors in a moment, but we found generally that there was not enough focus on whistleblowing in the wider public sector. The Francis review of the health sector highlighted the need for effective whistleblowing policies not just in the health sector, but more widely. Earlier this year, the Public Accounts Committee revisited whistleblowing again—it seems to be a bit of a theme—and still we stressed the need to embed a “Speak up” environment. We were looking particularly at whistleblowing in the civil service at that point, but the lessons read across, sadly. The National Audit Office found earlier this year that just 52% of people in the civil service “think it is safe to challenge the way things are done”.”