Dame Meg Hillier
MP for Hackney South and Shoreditch · Labour (Co-op) · United Kingdom
“On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker, I have huge respect for the Minister, but she has said that she will not take any interventions. She is a very good Minister, and I trust that she will answer in detail the points that have been raised in the House today; having discussions with her and the Government after the debate is too late…”
“My hon. Friend talks about who makes our laws, and she has talked in articles that she has written about the primacy of this place. If the Bill goes forward, is she willing to accept amendments?”
“I welcome my right hon. Friend to her place and thank her for that response, which demonstrates the complications of these schemes. I asked the National Audit Office to look into this, and yesterday the Public Accounts Committee published its report on compensation schemes, suggesting that a central body be established.”
“I am pleased by my right hon. Friend’s answer, but she is in a unique position across Government to ensure that we are protecting not only women, but those who are blind or have visual impairments, who really value this technology.”
“I welcome the Chancellor’s clampdown on speculation and leaks ahead of the Budget; it is certainly an important step he has taken. On the issue of certainty, the National Wealth Fund is a critical investor in crowding in private investment around the UK. I noted that he has changed the remit.”
“Further to the points made by my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth East (Tom Hayes), it is important that we talk here and that we have diplomacy, but what practical actions are the Foreign Office and the Ministry of Defence taking to ensure that there is a review of physical defence and security, so that we send a clear message to t…”
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“One of the things still not agreed is getting back into the Erasmus scheme. The Turing scheme, which was proposed instead, cut out youth groups, which has had a big effect in my constituency and around the country. Does my hon. Friend have any further information —I hope the Minister is listening—about the pace at which we might get back into the Erasmus scheme?”
“My hon. Friend has helpfully laid out a list of issues for the Minister. I would add: what do we do about touring musicians? It has had a really big impact that people are unable to tour in Europe because of the cost of cabotage, visas and so on, as well as the time delays. Does my hon. Friend agree that we should be pushing that issue as well?”
“Are his fishermen not pleased that their export market, which was often turning fish back because of the massively complicated controls, is now open to them again? We were not eating that fish in the UK, and too often it was rotting.”
“The UK has one of the best defence industries in the world. I am disappointed, as a fellow patriot, that the hon. Gentleman wants to downplay our ability to access that money and support UK businesses and jobs.”
“I am disappointed that we are hearing, from the hon. Gentleman and others on the Opposition side of the Chamber, words such as “surrender”, “sinister” and “stupid”. They are nicely alliterative, but let me give him some other words: “cheaper”, “faster” and “more opportunities”? They are what the deal brings to the young people of Boston and Skegness, as much as to the people of Hackney South and Shoreditch.”
“My right hon. Friend is making a compelling point. In contrast to the hon. Member for Boston and Skegness (Richard Tice), she seems to be leaning into co-operating in order to protect. That does not mean rule-taking, surrendering or being stupid; this is leaning in and working with others to protect us all on our own terms.”
“I am slightly perturbed that the hon. Member says, “whatever side of the Brexit debate we fall on”. As my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow (Ms Creasy) said, Brexit has happened. We are now in the real world of today, in which there is a war in Ukraine and huge issues because of the energy crisis, and it is absolutely vital that we work with partners across the world, whether that is through the India trade deal or this one. Can he not acknowledge that we are now living in a different world and that the word “Brexit” is of no use to us any more?”
“The issue of copyright and creatives is big in the news because of artificial intelligence, but it has also been a long-running issue and it is good that the spotlight is on it. Will the Minister look into a levy on IT equipment, so that people who provide their creative material on that receive some effective royalties, as happens under the book lending scheme? This is an early idea, but if he starts talking about it now in government, we might get some success.”
“It is right that we have properly resourced boundary commissions, but we have more than one in England: the Boundary Commission for England and the Local Government Boundary Commission for England. Have there been conversations at the Electoral Commission or elsewhere about amalgamating those two commissions or pooling resources in order to save taxpayer money?”
“I spent most of the last Government’s time in office scrutinising public spending, and grew weary of promises of pay or other Government decisions not being matched with budgets for schools, hospitals and so on. When things like changes to national insurance and pay increases are made, I hope that this Government will be very honest about the impact on school budgets, and not have headlines that are not balanced with funding. I therefore hope the Minister is making good arguments in the spending review. Could she make sure that she really leans into the issue of falling rolls in London’s schools? Any hoped-for pay rise, which is much deserved by teachers, will be a double whammy for schools in London, because rolls are falling and their income is therefore much lower; that will have an extra impact on staffing decisions.”
“I commend my right hon. Friend for explaining—in as much detail as he is able on the Floor of the House—why he believes that this is a necessary act, and I trust him to have the security of the nation as his top priority. However, elements of the treaty cannot be talked about, even at the point when this House may vote on it. There is only one Member of this House who has access to all areas of Government spending: the Chair of the Public Accounts Committee, the hon. Member for North Cotswolds (Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown). Does my right hon. Friend agree that some areas need deeper scrutiny, and will he support our plan to have a scrutiny Committee that can examine sensitive issues, including this one?”
“Yesterday, there was a lot of coverage of the Chancellor’s comments about the ISA limit. She pledged to keep it at £20,000 but did not specify how much within that would be cash and how much would be investments. Can the Minister reassure me that she is seriously considering the impact on the mortgage-lending market of changing the cash ISA limit?”
“I congratulate the Prime Minister on this achievement, on top of two great trade deals. This is important if we are trying to deliver growth in the economy. Could the Prime Minister outline what he thinks the two or three main gains are to boost the economy in short order, so that we can build the public spending that we so badly need?”
“We have seen the slaughter of innocents going on for far too long, and as others have said, people are dying right now. I welcome the Foreign Secretary’s statement and the Prime Minister’s statement yesterday with France and Canada. The Foreign Secretary mentioned that he had met Vice-President Vance. To get a breakthrough, because Israel is not listening, America needs to be part of this. Can he tell us about that conversation with Vice-President Vance and whether he has any hope that we can make a statement jointly with the US as well?”
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Mundell. I have many constituents who have been really affected by the Supreme Court ruling. I highlight one who works in the ambulance service; she has breasts and uses women’s changing facilities without any issue. Were she to be forced into using other facilities, it would declare to everybody her transgender status. She has lived as a woman and has a gender recognition certificate. Dos the hon. Member agree that this legal ruling creates a real mess that needs sorting out?”
“My hon. Friend highlights an important point. Many people have been in touch with me who are very frightened because of the Supreme Court ruling. Does he agree that not only do we need to speak here but that the Government need to make sure the interim guidance is quickly firmed up as proper guidance, because the interim guidance is causing confusion and fear for so many people?”
“Does the hon. Lady not agree that the Equality Act was well written to deal with intersectional issues when they arise, that the guidance around it was very clear, and that this Supreme Court ruling has muddied that. As she says, the Government may need to step in to resolve this.”
“Under the previous Trump Administration, the British Foreign Office issued a travel warning to trans people because of the so-called bathroom ban—well, the actual bathroom ban—in parts of the United States. Yet now we are in a position where many trans women and trans men are very frightened about using toilets. Does my hon. Friend agree that Government action is needed?”
“My hon. Friend is making an important point. The gender recognition certificate is often destroyed by trans people because they have their new birth certificate. The certificate itself is not always an extant document.”
“This, I believe—as I know many others do—presents a serious risk that terminally ill patients, already highly vulnerable, will feel pressured to end their lives.”
“If those changes had been discussed before the original Bill was published, or even in evidence before Committee, we would have been in a better place to get that tighter drafting that is needed in making good legislation. We are not a debating society; we are now legislating for a law that would enable the state to assist in people taking their lives. I am sad that we are able to discuss these amendments only now. I did not get the opportunity to be on the Bill Committee, but I commend all Members who spend so many hours discussing and debating those issues. The ramifications of the clauses I want to talk about are important for potential users of a service, for medical professionals, for families and for other health professionals. The Bill currently allows doctors to suggest assisted dying to a patient who has not raised it themselves.”
“I rise to speak to new clauses 1 and 2, which stand in my name, and consequential amendment 2, and I will touch on others at the end. These amendments—without being dismissive of those who helped me draft them—are imperfect. Those of us who are not the promoter of the Bill have not had the support of Government drafters in tidying up the Bill. We need to acknowledge that the Bill in front of us today is the Bill—more or less—that will or will not be passed by this House. For any amendments made, by the point of Third Reading, that is it—there will be no further opportunity to redraft them. Sadly, one of these amendments was rejected in Committee.”
“I thank my hon. Friend for his point, which brings me to something I really want to address. As I said in my opening remarks, these are imperfect amendments. I will get into some of the conversations that I have had with a number of people about this. I am one person; I have not been able to consult the BMA, as a Government or a sponsor could, for example, but I am aware of its concerns. However, we are talking here about very definite and irreversible decisions on life and death. I know that many doctors have had conversations about that, but not to the level required to legislate for it. This is a different set of circumstances, but I very much appreciate his point.”
“As I have said, this is an imperfect process to deal with that challenge, but it is a very different set of circumstances compared with the other advice that doctors give.”
“I thank my right hon. Friend for that intervention. Given her many years as a constituency MP in the same borough as me, we both know many such vulnerable people. Dr Rachel Clarke, a hospital palliative care doctor, said: ‘If, for instance, you say to a vulnerable patient who has just been told they have a diagnosis of terminal cancer, “Have you thought about assisted dying?”, I would suggest that stating it broadly like that is a form of pressure and that you are potentially unintentionally coercing that patient.’ –– [ Official Report, Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Public Bill Committee, 28 January 2025; c. 75, Q93.] So we are in a very difficult space, as my hon. Friend the Member for Stroud (Dr Opher) highlighted, with his background as a practising GP. We recognise that.”
“I need to get into the arguments for my two new clauses, so I will not take any more interventions for the time being. I believe that there is a serious risk that terminally ill patients, who are already vulnerable, could feel pressured into ending their lives sooner than they would wish to. We know of examples of patients who felt suicidal and low at the point of diagnosis, and at that point they are vulnerable—this is not the debate in which to make points about that—but often, with good care and pain relief, they can move away from that decision. There is also the issue about the burden on family.”
“I must make progress. I also want to talk about how the teenage brain works. The Bill would apply to a young person at the age of 18. A month or so after they reach that age, they could undertake an assisted death. Let me highlight some of the good conversations that I have had with people who have generously given their time to speak with me about these important issues, which I am worried have not been addressed at any point in the Bill’s passage, except for a short and important discussion in Committee.”
“Let me finish my point about doctors’ advice before I move on to the issue of 18-year-olds. Dr Alexandra Mullock, who is a senior lecturer in medical law and co-director of the centre for social ethics and policy at the University of Manchester, said in written evidence to the Bill Committee: “The freedom for a registered medical practitioner (RMP) to raise/discuss the option of seeking help to die in clause 4(2) is ethically problematic.” She also highlighted: “Professional advice regarding treatment will be received by the patient as a recommendation”, as the hon. Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Dr Johnson) said. That is a really big concern. The UK coalition for deaf and disabled people is very concerned, and would like this provision removed as well.”
“It was heart wrenching to read. Those with illnesses and disabilities were particularly concerned about what the Bill means for them. These children have not really had a voice in the debate so far, and there is talk about whether the Bill may apply to children with life limiting or severe progressive diseases.”
“The hon. Gentleman highlights an important point in relation to my amendment and others: in this House, we made coercive control illegal in legislation only in recent years. This is such a big issue, and what is different about the Bill—this is why some positions are particularly challenging—is that we are talking about irreversible decisions. I want to talk a bit about how the teenage brain works. Children and young people are particularly susceptible to being influenced, including into dangerous and risky behaviour. In a number of countries, assisted dying laws have been expanded to allow children and young people to end their lives. We need to be alert to that very real risk. I am impressed by the work of the Children’s Commissioner, who recently published a report into children’s views on assisted dying.”
“I thank the hon. Lady for her comments. If I have time, I will touch on social media, but I want to put on the record my thanks to some of the professionals who gave of their time to speak to me in preparation for my amendment.”
“I apologise to them in advance that I will not be able to do justice in the time that I have to the very many careful and thoughtful points that they raised.”
“Not at the moment. I had some very interesting conversations with Sophie Scott, professor of cognitive neuroscience at University College London; Sallie Baxendale, professor of clinical neuropsychology at UCL; Sarah-Jayne Blakemore, professor of psychology and cognitive neuroscience at the University of Cambridge; Dr Richard Hain, consultant and clinical lead, all-Wales managed clinical network in paediatric palliative medicine at Cardiff and Vale university health board; and Dr Anna-Karenia Anderson, consultant in paediatric palliative medicine and medical director for Shooting Star children’s hospice. I am only sad that there has not been a bigger debate, because the process has not allowed for one.”
“I have said no—I need to explain the issues, and give due credit to the people who have assisted me in raising them. Adolescents’ brains develop differently. From the age of puberty, there is a rapid change in how young people make decisions. As adults, we have the experience to imagine what the future might look like, but younger people, up to about the age of 25, often cannot plan or predict their future because that part of the brain has not developed well, and they are not good at understanding regret. The comparisons are different for adults. Role models and social groups matter a great deal.”
“In this case, the counterfactual is not being here anymore; that is a very difficult thing for a lot people to understand, particularly young people. The ability of young people to think flexibly and change their minds is in the front of the brain, which does not always react to the—”
“I do not have time to completely unpick the hon. Lady’s points, but to have something positively suggested is a big issue for young people, so the social media aspect is important. The social network matters. At the point of puberty, teenagers will look to their social group, which will massively influence their behaviour in a way that their families will not. Adolescents are more likely to take risks: their neurodevelopmental underpinnings are different, and pathways between the rational and the emotional parts of the brain are not fully developed. In “a hot situation”, where there is a lot of emotion, they take more risks, particularly because they do not have the ability to think about the counterfactual.”
“Even young people under the age of 16 can have such conversations because of Gillick competency, which is a good principle, but the issues around mental capacity and Gillick competency are often not well put in place—”
“I need to make some progress. Madam Deputy Speaker, I am trying to speak at great pace. Teenagers are passionate about their beliefs and peers can change their minds in a way that their parents often cannot. There is not always a logical decision-making path. A doctor would carry weight. In response to the point made by the hon. Member for Edinburgh West (Christine Jardine), a child may be thinking about dying but somebody—that doctor or professional—could make their decision a legitimate option. There are many issues in palliative care. We talked about Gillick competency, but to be clear, young people under the age of 18 can make their own decisions about healthcare.”
“I have said no to my hon. Friend—I have moved on from the points that she wanted to talk about. The law is ambiguous about Gillick competency. The Mental Capacity Act 2005 and Gillick competency triangulates through the person but also the condition, so it relates to the complexity of the condition as well as to the individual. Peer pressure is a big part of what has an impact on people, as well as the view of the professional or doctor.”
“There has not, however, been time to work through how those issues have an impact on younger people. If only I had time to go into some of the evidence I have received—I have only been able to give a hasty run-through because of the pressure on time today, which is a sign of the challenges of the process. We have not got time to go into the detail that we need to consider. Socialisation is important. Social media has a very big impact and we need to understand that that will have an impact on young people making their decisions.”
“I need to make progress. On the issue of children making a decision at the age of 18, they could have a conversation with someone about dying and then on their 18th birthday sign on the dotted line; the conversation would not even have to be at that point. We need to understand that even at the age of 18 or 19, young people’s brains are in a different place on this. If we pass the Bill, we are saying that at the age of 18, 19 or 20, people could have an assisted death. We need to understand the ramification of that for those people. I want to ensure that I cover some of the other points that hon. Members have made. I do not have time to go through all the amendments that play into this, but strengthening the panel and the safeguards, as well as the issues that hon. Members have raised around coercion and capacity, are very important.”
“I am trying to do the maths on my timing. I fear I have run out of time. I would like to speak for longer, but I sense from the mood of the House, and from you, Madam Deputy Speaker, that hon. Members do not wish me to do that. I am very concerned that the issues have not been properly discussed. I again remind hon. Members that if we vote on the Bill, these matters have not been fully tested with the professions concerned, as we have heard from the Royal College of Psychiatrists this week and from many of the other professions who would have to grapple with the legislation in practical terms. What we are doing now is legislating for the real practice of delivering those measures, and we have not had time to fully explore that.”
“Many of those who have tabled amendments have not yet been called to speak, and I, for one, would like to hear their points of view.”
“On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Many people have put in to speak today, and we appreciate the huge challenge to you, chairing this debate, and for the Speaker’s Office. It is normal for private Members’ Bills that the debate continues in an orderly and proper fashion so that everyone can have their say. We appreciate that that is much more challenging in these circumstances, but we have heard many times that we are running out of time, Members are not taking interventions because of concerns about time, and the informal time limit has dropped to five minutes. I am aware that the Front Benchers still need to speak. It is in the power of the Chair, of course, to refuse any suggestion of a closure motion. I would like to ask you whether there is any thinking going on about whether this debate can continue.”
“Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. My concern is that this is the last debate on these amendments. It is in the control of the Chair whether to grant a vote on a closure motion. I simply make that point, as I am sure you heard, Madam Deputy Speaker.”
“I am sorry to intrude in a debate on Stockport railway station, but I feel a burning need to highlight the issues of Dalston Kingsland station. That railway line was the London Overground but the Mayor of London has renamed it different things in different areas, and that part is now the Mildmay line. That station has no lift, unlike others on that line. That really is a big issue, especially as it is close to the world-famous Ridley Road market, so it attracts a lot of visitors. I hope the Minister will cover how fast we can get lifts into stations without step-free access.”
“I draw attention to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests as a trustee of the parliamentary contributory pension fund. The points about fiduciary duty have been made. Given that fund managers will need time to pool together funds that reflect the Government’s wishes and the voluntary accord, when does the Minister expect it to kick in? At that point, might he consider mandation?”
“I add my congratulations to the Secretary of State and the team at the Department as well as our team of officials under Lord Mandelson in Washington. This is a major step forward in a short time. Given how long trade agreements normally take, this is an impressive step. However, as has been mentioned, we know that President Trump has made rattling sounds about tariffs on the film industry. The creatives and technical businesses in my constituency who contribute to our film industry are obviously nervous about that. Will the Minister reassure us that he is putting his shoulder to the wheel on this issue and not resting on his laurels on the triumphs achieved so far?”
“Q9. The London borough of Hackney spends £54 million a year, and rising, on temporary accommodation. Not only is that costing the taxpayer dear, but it is wrenching families apart. Communities are being rent asunder, schools are closing, and families are living in hostels in overcrowded rooms or in far-flung areas outside London. I welcome our pledge to build 1.5 million new homes, but will the Prime Minister reassure my constituents that social housing is a priority for him?”
“I welcome the Minister’s measured and thoughtful response to President Trump’s latest announcement and his full-throated support for the British film industry. He will be aware that my constituency is very much a filming venue for both film and television. In his discussions with the United States, will he ensure that he is also championing high-end television, as I think he briefly mentioned, which is often filmed, produced and made in Hackney? I also make a plea for all the creative industries in my constituency that feed into the film industry. Can the Minister ensure there is good communication from the Government on these negotiations? This is creating a great a deal of uncertainty.”