Dame Meg Hillier
MP for Hackney South and Shoreditch · Labour (Co-op) · United Kingdom
“On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker, I have huge respect for the Minister, but she has said that she will not take any interventions. She is a very good Minister, and I trust that she will answer in detail the points that have been raised in the House today; having discussions with her and the Government after the debate is too late…”
“My hon. Friend talks about who makes our laws, and she has talked in articles that she has written about the primacy of this place. If the Bill goes forward, is she willing to accept amendments?”
“I welcome my right hon. Friend to her place and thank her for that response, which demonstrates the complications of these schemes. I asked the National Audit Office to look into this, and yesterday the Public Accounts Committee published its report on compensation schemes, suggesting that a central body be established.”
“I am pleased by my right hon. Friend’s answer, but she is in a unique position across Government to ensure that we are protecting not only women, but those who are blind or have visual impairments, who really value this technology.”
“I welcome the Chancellor’s clampdown on speculation and leaks ahead of the Budget; it is certainly an important step he has taken. On the issue of certainty, the National Wealth Fund is a critical investor in crowding in private investment around the UK. I noted that he has changed the remit.”
“Further to the points made by my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth East (Tom Hayes), it is important that we talk here and that we have diplomacy, but what practical actions are the Foreign Office and the Ministry of Defence taking to ensure that there is a review of physical defence and security, so that we send a clear message to t…”
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“That brings me on to the proposals in the Bill relating to the setting up of childminder agencies. I mentioned my concerns about this in an intervention. I am not alone in my scepticism. It is unclear from the Bill how the proposals will work. Among other things, I am concerned that the concept of an agency is different to different people. It might mean one thing to the Minister who made the proposal, and another to others. Is it a children’s centre or a local authority effectively acting as an agent for Ofsted and professional development locally—something that I could support, with the right safeguards—or is it the relentless march of the private sector, supported by the Government, who are enabling it to turn a profit from the relationship between child- minders and parents?”
“I am the second of 10 children, so I do not have a problem with lots of children being looked after, but imagine taking six toddlers through potty training, or to the park. A constituent wrote to me on the subject. She is just one of the many parents, childminders and professional child carers in Hackney who are really concerned about the proposal. Her child is looked after by a childminder, whom she values greatly. She says: “If this ratio had come in before I had gone back to work I may not have gone at all. I didn’t want my baby in a nursery. I feel very strongly that parents need the option of leaving our children in a safe, caring home environment” with a childminder. She speaks for so many parents up and down the country, and indeed for childminders.”
“The policy is unworkable. It beggars belief. It does nothing to reduce costs, but if one were to say, on a generous reading, that it did, it would be at the cost of quality. So that Members are absolutely clear, let me explain that the Government propose that the adult-child ratios for nurseries should go from one adult per three children to one adult per four children for one-year-olds and younger—for the baby room in a nursery, as most of us would know it—and from one adult per four children to one adult per six children for two-year olds. They propose changing the childminder-to-child ratios from 1:1 to 1:2 for the under-ones, and from 1:3 to 1:4 for children aged two to five.”
“I am against that, because it is important that we provide an accurate assessment of the availability of, and demand for, child care in an area, and it is reasonable to expect that to be done locally. I am greatly in favour of local authorities having more say on the subject, but if we remove that statutory duty, in areas unlike mine, where there are not that many children, that may be something that falls off the edge of a local authority’s area of responsibilities. That is another example of the Government’s small-state-is-good ideology, this time on a local level, and with working parents as the victims. It does not square with the Government’s desires—all our desires, indeed—and need to encourage people into work. There is also a huge issue to do with the proposed ratios between children and their nursery carers or childminders.”
“I represent one of the youngest constituencies in the UK: over 20% of the population of my borough is under 16. Between the last two censuses, the population in the borough of Hackney grew by 30,000. That included a large increase in under-fives, and many people in their early 20s and 30s, many of them parents. Child care is therefore of great importance in my constituency, as well as up and down the country. The Bill deals with many important issues, but I want to focus on child care. The muddle of Government child care policy is not helped by the child care clauses. They make nothing clearer; in fact, they make the chaos worse. First, the Bill repeals the local authority duty to assess child care provision.”
“One concern I have encountered a lot in my constituency is where a child has something that is difficult to diagnose or put a name to. Does my hon. Friend share my concern that unless we get this right in the Bill, those children, their parents and their teachers will not have any better provision than is currently on offer?”
“Tomorrow marks the start of London fashion week. Are the Government willing to work with the British Fashion Council, which is announcing a mapping exercise of manufacturing in the industry to help to support jobs and growth for all of our constituents?”
“There are currently only six working mothers in the Government, and only one at the Cabinet table. That might go some way towards explaining the confusion and chaos in the Government’s child care policy. Will the Leader of the House agree to a debate in Government time—as it involves Government business—to discuss this matter, so that the Government can take on board the expertise of other Members from their own constituencies and their own experience?”
“My constituency, Hackney South and Shoreditch, has had a long love affair with the industry. It is embedded in both the history and the culture of the borough. From the arrival of the silk weaver Huguenots in the late 17th century to the present day, generations of aspiring designers have settled and set up their businesses in the east end. It is the natural hub of an industry, its beating heart, which today provides 1,500 jobs in design and manufacturing.”
“As ever, it is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Riordan. At the end of this week, London fashion week will dominate the media with news of the latest trends on the catwalk, but if we look beyond the perfect seams of the catwalk shows, there lies the beating heart of an industry. It is an industry that contributes £21 billion to the UK economy and supports 816,000 jobs, making it the largest employer of all the creative industries, so it is definitely an industry worth talking about. For all that significant contribution to the economy, there is also huge potential to grow, to flourish, to be better and to create more jobs. Excellent foundations are in place. Our fashion colleges are exceptional, and London has a worldwide reputation as the creative launch pad for the industry.”
“We have already seen adverts in Australian newspapers for people to travel there—not particularly in relation to fashion, but I am sure that that will follow. As I said earlier, the British film industry has been the focus of tax breaks and investment vehicles, so we should look imaginatively at how to support fashion. I hope that the Government will react not simply with words of support to echo what the Prime Minister has said, but with action. In these difficult economic times, the Government should support the fashion industry and recognise its value and importance to the UK economy.”
“I am sure that the Minister’s Department is already in intense discussions with the Home Office about the graduate work visa programme, which is restricting opportunities for some of the best international graduates of our fashion colleges from setting up their fledgling businesses in the UK. Over the years, some of those graduates have stayed, because they could, and have grown their small businesses into bigger businesses, creating jobs and wealth in the UK. I do not mind who creates jobs and wealth, but I want that to happen here. With the current visa regime, the danger is that those people will have better opportunities to travel to and be poached by countries that see the advantage of doing so.”
“They know what skills they need and, with co-ordination, they can develop skills programmes to train people in those skills, particularly in the seven eighths of the iceberg that we do not see—not the catwalk end, but all the skills that support the manufacturing and retail industry. I have previously raised with the Treasury the issue of small business support and innovative finance models, which are often not regulated by the Financial Services Authority. They need to be available to the small businesses that make up so much of the fashion industry, because those businesses struggle to raise money in other ways.”
“The industry is stepping up to the mark to develop its own solutions, but the Government could help. In particular, will the Minister back the move from unpaid interns to apprenticeships—including, crucially, graduate apprenticeships—with a programme of support and information, and a focus on the gap in technical skills that is opening up and might, if not quickly plugged, leave the UK fashion industry behind the curve? Will she agree to work with the British Fashion Council to map manufacturing business and support development and growth at the high end, which does much to entice international designers to come to the UK and to entice graduates to stay? I hope that the Minister will agree to work with employers.”
“Across the Atlantic ocean, in New York, a £3 million fund has just been created to protect the garment district, through supporting skills training and investment in new machinery. London and the UK must not be left behind: we should be leading, not following, in what is one of our leading-edge industries. Business schools in the USA partner with the fashion industry to marry the best business and fashion brains. We, too, could follow their lead with a little support, and set up a fund to lend to new creative businesses and to support our fashion colleges. I am sure that the Minister is aware of the Prime Minister’s personal support, which he pledged at the London men’s fashion event at Downing street recently. He cited fashion as one of the key industries that is critical to the future of the British economy.”
“We can be very proud of the fashion industry, which provides substantial benefits to the whole country. We have a wealth of creative talent, and we have educational institutions, which are the best in the world, that are making the most of it. However, we cannot let it end there: the fashion industry is not letting it end there, and we could be doing a lot more. The Government should invest in a machinist school as part of their general support for manufacturing. Will they partner with the British Fashion Council, which will launch a British manufacturing and textiles mapping report this week to underline the potential of what we already have? With a modicum of Government support, the industry could grow and create the jobs that the Prime Minister is so keen to see.”
“To give just one example, men’s footwear brands are enjoying international success in the far east and the US, and factories are currently working flat out to keep up with demand. Organisations such as DISC and the Centre for Fashion Enterprise are laying the foundations for the fashion industry’s future, yet they are funded not by the Government but by the European regional development fund—I was present when the European Commissioner launched it in my constituency—and that funding will not last for ever. DISC’s funding will run out in 2014, which is only next year. Will the Government step up and support British industry as well, or will they leave it to someone else? If the industry is important enough for Europe to fund, I hope that the British Government will similarly support it.”
“When the elements of excellent education, design support and the ability to manufacture come together, the industry will have an opportunity to flourish and grow further. In New York, fashion zones or clusters have been created to encourage industry growth by offering cheaper rents and loans. Encouraging growth in those areas of the fashion industry might produce massive economic benefits locally and nationally. The British film industry has often been the focus of tax breaks or investment vehicles, so why not look imaginatively at what might be done to support jobs and growth in fashion? It is an exciting time for the industry, and one that is filled with opportunities. Across the world, there is huge demand for British-made products, because they are the hallmark of quality and good design.”
“Its goal is to create links with designers and manufacturers, and to offer support and advice to manufacturing businesses. DISC has proposed the creation of a machinist school that would train 25 machinists a year and provide the manufacturing industry with a new, young generation of highly skilled professionals with relevant skills. It is here that we hit one of the challenges of how to fit fashion into the models that the Government are promoting. To be a good machinist, someone needs not a short apprenticeship but lots of practice, which means a longer training course than some of the apprenticeships now being funded by the Government. The establishment of such a school, which we are keen to host in Hackney, would sustain the industry, but there are other opportunities to expand.”
“Instead, manufacturing businesses are forced to work around the clock with a skeleton staff in the build-up to London fashion week, and they often close their doors for months afterwards. It is no wonder that there is a temptation to use unpaid interns. British designers want to make their samples and garments here, but there is not currently the capacity to do so. The UK Fashion and Textile Association has recently secured £2.7 million for the Textile Centre of Excellence in Huddersfield to support skills training throughout the UK. The industry is therefore giving much support, but a bit of focus on how the Government might support it better would be welcome. The Designer-Manufacturer Innovation Support Centre—also known as DISC—was launched last year with European regional development fund money.”
“Throughout the country from London to Scotland, there are established and specialised manufacturers producing exactly such top-quality products. In the east midlands alone, about 10,000 to 15,000 jobs are provided by fashion manufacturing. Many manufacturers set up in the UK to create those high-quality products, but they are struggling to expand and grow because of a lack of skilled machinists. Currently, the industry needs 150 more skilled machinists a year just to sustain itself, and companies can barely afford to take on and train new apprentices, because the cost of mistakes in high-end manufacturing is too great to be worth the risk. The Government have a programme to support apprenticeships, and it would be good to hear from the Minister how that might be better applied to the fashion industry.”
“It is a business that has recognised not only a gap in the market and been a success, but the importance of fuelling new designers and showcasing and supporting new talent to grow businesses as a whole. Its business has helped many designers grow substantially, which shows what can be achieved when talent is given the right tools. When designers get the support and funding they need, they face another hurdle: where to manufacture? There is a real desire to manufacture more in Britain. Volume manufacturing may have gone, probably irrevocably, abroad. However, I am not talking about grubby, backstreet sweatshops, but high-end manufacturing—the top end, which is the true craft that involves artisanship, local production and traditional techniques.”
“The Centre for Fashion Enterprise—its director, Wendy Malem, used to be a designer—and NewGen, a programme run by the British Fashion Council, both offer the business support that is so needed by designers. NewGen is currently sponsored by Topshop, and last year it celebrated its 10th anniversary. Without that programme, we would never have heard of Alexander McQueen, who started his business in Hackney and whose legacy gave Kate her wedding dress. However, both schemes are vastly oversubscribed. From speaking to those in the industry, I know that there is an appetite to expand such partnerships, but no funding for it. Incidentally, Not Just a Label provides a platform for new designers.”
“To give an example, Not Just a Label is an innovative and exciting new business in my constituency. Based in a small office in Shoreditch, it searches out fresh new designer talent, and promotes and sells their products on an online platform. When it started, it was given no funding from banks or investors. Now, as it tries to expand, banks will still not lend to it, despite its success, saying that online businesses are too risky. Such businesses are not necessarily looking for a grant or a subsidy, but simply for a loan—sometimes just an overdraft facility—to help them start up or expand. With all those barriers, how do new designers get off the ground? Happily, some support is available from the British Fashion Council and the Centre for Fashion Enterprise, which is based in Hackney.”
“Fashion, first and foremost, is a business, so however talented a designer, he or she needs business skills, but too often the creatives do not have such skills. I have met some amazing people in my constituency from companies in which there is a good relationship between a creative and someone with a business head. Many people do not have such a relationship automatically, so they need support. Like those in any small company, they cannot do everything in the business. Creative businesses start at a disadvantage, because they find it harder to get funding. Financial institutions are much less likely to lend money to creative businesses, which are more likely to have new, innovative business models and younger owners, and are therefore seen as more risky.”
“I hope that the Minister will disabuse me of that notion and say that that is not the case in the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, but we have certainly seen that attitude from other parts of Government. We need a clear path laid out from secondary school onwards, so that young people can see the career opportunities before them. We also need to see the end of unpaid internships. I am pleased that both the British Fashion Council and the UK Fashion and Textile Association are putting their weight behind proper training, apprenticeships and real jobs. Unpaid internships cannot be justified in an industry that generates so much money for the UK. I move on from education to the skills needed; there is a skills deficit in business and manufacturing.”
“How do we make sure that the graduates of today have the support to succeed? Along with other higher education establishments, our fashion colleges face squeezed budgets, so we cannot assume that they can continue to do as well as they have been despite the cuts. Other countries understand that and are pouring money into their own fashion colleges. We face increased competition and cannot fall behind. Education is the foundation of the industry; it is where talent is moulded, encouraged and allowed to flourish. We must ensure that our young people continue to be able to study at world-class institutions here in the UK. The Government’s plans for the EBacc, although now abandoned, reflect a mindset that downgrades the importance of creative skills.”
“Today, I want to talk about how we can sustain and build on that success in the future, in both London and the rest of the UK. Sustaining the industry and securing its future starts with education, so we must ensure that that is working well. I am incredibly proud of the fashion colleges and institutions across the country and in my constituency. They have an international reputation for excellence and year-on-year produce many talented graduates from around the globe. The London College of Fashion, which has a campus in my constituency, is a shining example of that. It has been running for over 100 years and has produced incredible talent, including: Linda Bennett from L. K. Bennett; Emma Hope; Jane Brown; and Jimmy Choo, the famous shoe designer, who also had his first studio in Hackney. Who are the success stories of the future?”
“Before I was interrupted, I was saying that my constituency is the natural hub of an industry that today provides 1,500 jobs in design and manufacturing. Hackney is home to about 150 design, manufacturing and design consultancy businesses. London fashion week alone generates £30 million for the city’s economy, showcasing about 250 designers to a global audience and generating £130 million-worth of media coverage. London and the UK benefit from fashion tourism too, which is estimated to have accounted for 0.5% of tourism spending in 2009. However, the debate is not just about Hackney and London; in 2009, the fashion industry directly provided more than 800,000 jobs across the UK, and indirectly accounted for 4.5% of total employment.”
“I hope that the Minister will address the issue of visas later in her speech. If she is not planning to do so, it would be good if she could address that point before she moves on from higher education.”
“On that point, businesses in my constituency tell me that it is often still difficult for them to get money. We know that funding for lending is actually fuelling a lot of buy-to-let landlords, which is a different issue altogether. However, there is also a real need for the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills to look at licensing alternative forms of funding, such as crowd funding, which are popular for some of these small businesses. If the Minister cannot answer me now, perhaps she could write to me about her Department’s attitude to that issue and what it will be doing.”
“Further to the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Slough (Fiona Mactaggart), I have many constituents who have submitted an in-time application and have not even received an acknowledgement from the UK Border Agency. When my office chases up some months later, it turns out that they have not even been input into the UKBA computer system. Perhaps the Home Secretary can tell us whether this is an attempt by the Home Office to massage figures about the number of applicants and the speed with which it is dealing with them.”
“T3. Today, we saw the Government unveil their “pile ’em high, teach ’em cheap” approach to child care, hot on the heels of cuts to tax credits for poor working families and cuts to child benefit. When is the Chancellor going to unveil his supposed plans for a tax benefit for child care? What are the Government doing to support working families?”
“In my constituency, which is very young, there are a number of families who have two children of the same gender living in a three-bedroom property. Under the new rules, they would only qualify for a two-bedroom property. What would my hon. Friend’s advice be to them? Or perhaps I should ask what the Minister’s advice would be to a family who have a 15-year-old boy and a 12-year-old boy, with the 15-year-old about to turn 16 in a few months’ time, but in the meantime—from April onwards—the family will have to find that extra rent. Will that drive the family into the hands of moneylenders, or do the Government have a plan?”
“In my constituency, private sector rents are so much higher than in the social rented sector that moving is not an option for people in such circumstances. Does my hon. Friend agree that in my constituency, and I am sure in other constituencies too, many people do not understand that the change will happen from 1 April, or from when their tenancy renews? Does he foresee a big social problem arising from the Government’s lack of ability to communicate this invidious policy?”
“I draw attention to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. Does my hon. Friend agree that one of the biggest mistakes of the many that the Government made in their first few months was to cancel the register of landlords? The desire to change policy and improve the quality of private rented housing is now much more difficult, because we do not know where all those private landlords are.”
“Earlier, the Under-Secretary of State, the hon. Member for South West Norfolk (Elizabeth Truss), hinted again about changes to child care. A week or so ago there were major trails in the Sunday papers about imminent announcements. Has she been thwarted in her ambitions by members of the Government who do not wish to see women back in the workplace and contributing to the Government’s tax take?”
“My hon. Friend raises the issue of people with mental health problems. Does she agree that that is an area of great concern, along with other conditions that can fluctuate, such as HIV and AIDS? Such conditions are difficult to assess in a 15-minute interview. Does she also agree that it is the framework of the assessment that is at fault, and that Atos might have something to answer for as well?”
“Does my hon. Friend agree that the tenor of the debate about “strivers and skivers” says a great deal about what the DWP intended when it set up the assessment system—as do my sheaf of papers relating to constituency cases and the list of cases that she is reading out?”
“Other Members have raised the issue that Atos is a private company. I am sure that my hon. Friend will agree that it would be helpful if the Minister could reveal the profit margin, as this is public money being spent by a private company, which one would expect to make a profit. Would it not also be useful if the Minister could tell us whether there has been any change in the profit in the years for which Atos has been doing the assessments?”
“Does the hon. Gentleman agree that people with HIV/AIDS, where the side-effects can cause many day-to-day problems, are not properly assessed in the work capability assessment?”
“Penalties on readmission rates were introduced to improve clinical practice, but patients suffering from sickle cell and thalassaemia in my constituency and elsewhere cause hospitals to be fined for readmission, even though it is often in the patient’s best clinical interest. Will the Minister once again reconsider exempting sickle cell and thalassaemia from the penalty?”
“In Hackney there are more than 70 betting shops and last year £167 million was spent gambling on fixed-odds betting machines. What further evidence does the Minister need to take action on reducing either the number of machines or the frequency of bets that can be laid, which are taking money from my poorest constituents?”
“Over the weekend we read a great deal of what was provided to lobby journalists about the Government’s plans for the future of child care, yet when the Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister relaunched the Government on Monday afternoon we heard no detail about their plans. When will a Minister come to this House to lead a debate or make a statement so that Members can contribute on the issue of the future of child care, which is such an important one for most of my constituents?”
“The hon. Gentleman is talking about state intervention. Many people in my constituency and across London must effectively be subsidised through in-work benefits because of their low wages. There is therefore state subsidy and a cost to the state with the current regime.”
“Let us remember that it was the Conservative Government of the ’80s who abolished the mechanism for setting fair pay, the wages council. I am very proud that I am a Labour MP and that it was a Labour Government who introduced the minimum wage because of the abysmal failure of having a complete free rein on wages.”
“Thank you very much, Mrs Main, for calling me to speak. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Erith and Thamesmead (Teresa Pearce) on securing this debate on a very important issue. I represent a constituency in the part of London—east London—that was the birthplace of the living wage campaign. I think that we would all agree—Labour Members would certainly agree and perhaps even some Government Members would agree— that a fair wage for a fair day’s work is something that we support. I was slightly disturbed by the hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope) seemingly comparing people abroad working for £1 an hour or less with people here in Britain, as though that was an option for people here. I hope that he did not mean it quite that way, but that is how it came across.”
“I cannot understand how the hon. Gentleman makes a jump to reach that conclusion from my suggesting that we do not want to go back to a complete free rein on pay. That is not what I am saying at all, as he well knows. It is mischievous of him to suggest that I am saying that.”
“I will offer one word of caution. We need to look at the hourly gross rate of pay. That is obviously important, because it reflects the day-to-day money that people take home to live on, but we also need to consider pensions and other work benefits. When we assess what is fair pay, those benefits need to be brought into the round. My point is that, if a company pays a little lower than the living wage but pays a pension, we need to be watchful. As a Labour Government, we will need to be clear that the pressure, or indeed the kudos, of paying the living wage does not lead to the erosion of other benefits that are a type of payment in kind. My hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) made some very good points about that.”
“I will just make a little progress before I take interventions. I am also delighted that it is my party that is seeking to ensure that, in constituencies such as my own, a living wage will enable people to work. Let us be clear about something, before we run away with the idea that a living wage will be very damaging to lots of small businesses. A living wage is not something that a Labour Government would force upon business, or certainly not upon small businesses. There are businesses such as Moo.com in Tech city, which employs people in its warehouse in EC2, providing good, valuable jobs locally. Those people are on the minimum wage for the first part of their contract, until they have been there for a while, and then the company increases their wage. Flexibility is built into the Labour policy to ensure that the system will work.”