Dame Meg Hillier
MP for Hackney South and Shoreditch · Labour (Co-op) · United Kingdom
“On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker, I have huge respect for the Minister, but she has said that she will not take any interventions. She is a very good Minister, and I trust that she will answer in detail the points that have been raised in the House today; having discussions with her and the Government after the debate is too late…”
“My hon. Friend talks about who makes our laws, and she has talked in articles that she has written about the primacy of this place. If the Bill goes forward, is she willing to accept amendments?”
“I welcome my right hon. Friend to her place and thank her for that response, which demonstrates the complications of these schemes. I asked the National Audit Office to look into this, and yesterday the Public Accounts Committee published its report on compensation schemes, suggesting that a central body be established.”
“I am pleased by my right hon. Friend’s answer, but she is in a unique position across Government to ensure that we are protecting not only women, but those who are blind or have visual impairments, who really value this technology.”
“I welcome the Chancellor’s clampdown on speculation and leaks ahead of the Budget; it is certainly an important step he has taken. On the issue of certainty, the National Wealth Fund is a critical investor in crowding in private investment around the UK. I noted that he has changed the remit.”
“Further to the points made by my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth East (Tom Hayes), it is important that we talk here and that we have diplomacy, but what practical actions are the Foreign Office and the Ministry of Defence taking to ensure that there is a review of physical defence and security, so that we send a clear message to t…”
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“It makes sense to align ourselves with that draft European directive, which borrows from the best practice in Britain, before we look at transposition, hopefully in the summer of next year.”
“The situation is slightly more complex. There are two points in my hon. Friend’s question. One is about the total number of experiments. It is important to say that we do not have a percentage cap on the number of experiments that can take place, so more science can equal more experiments. We make an effort to ensure that most of those experiments are done on the least sentient animals, and that wherever there is an alternative, that has to be used. On section 24, there was a review in 2004 prior to the Freedom of Information Act coming in. Another review was scheduled for 2006, but that was delayed because of a court action. That finished in 2008, at which point the draft European directive was published.”
“I refer to my earlier point. It is a simple maths lesson, in a sense. If more science is proposed, more experiments are likely to come before the animals scientific procedures division to see whether it is acceptable to carry out those experiments. At all times the Home Office inspectorate looks very carefully at the suggestions put forward, ensuring that only experiments that can be done only on animals are agreed. If not, alternatives have to be used. We have also invested an awful lot of money in the National Centre for the Replacement, Refinement and Reduction of Animals in Research—NC3Rs—to reduce the use of animals in experiments, but more science in the global context is something that we should welcome, even if it sometimes leads to perverse outcomes, as in this case.”
“I know from my constituency that it is sometimes a challenge to find an interpreter in the right time frame who has the right qualifications and professional skills to do such demanding work. Interpreters do not have an easy job. Some of the issues that they deal with can be quite harrowing.”
“The responsibility for providing interpreters at the police station is an operational matter for the chief officer of the force concerned, and the Home Office has no plans to change that. Code of practice C issued under the Act for the detention, treatment, and questioning of persons by police officers states that chief officers are responsible for ensuring that appropriate arrangements are in place for provision of suitable qualified interpreters for people who are deaf or who do not understand English. The code indicates that a person must not be interviewed in the absence of a person capable of interpreting if they have difficulty understanding English, if the interviewer cannot speak the person’s own language or if the person wants an interpreter present.”
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr. Caton. I thank the hon. Member for Manchester, Withington (Mr. Leech) for raising this debate. Other hon. Members have spoken to me and to my hon. Friend the Minister for Security, Counter-Terrorism, Crime and Policing about the issue, particularly my hon. Friend the Member for Eltham (Clive Efford) and my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Central (Tony Lloyd), who has spoken to me about it on behalf of a number of Manchester colleagues. Clearly, there is some concern in the Manchester and London areas in particular. I am aware of the issue, and I welcome hon. Members’ interest in it. I also welcome the chance to debate it today. It is useful to start by outlining the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 requirements on interpreters.”
“We must allow ACPO to play its role, working with police forces, but I shall address the hon. Gentleman’s comments about legislating in this area later. ACPO acknowledges the invaluable contribution of the work carried out by interpreters in police forces and across the wider criminal justice system, but it also points out that outsourcing does not constitute a breach of the national agreement. Police forces are duty-bound to secure best value, and ACPO is not aware of any outsourcing activity that does not seek to operate in accordance with the national agreement.”
“However, outsourcing is often used because forces cannot get someone from the national register to do the work. There is anecdotal evidence that outsourcing has led to a drop in the quality of interpreting being provided, because interpreters are not prepared to work for the money available. We recognise that, and we know that work needs to be done to help to resolve the issue. ACPO’s lead official on interpreting issues, Assistant Chief Constable Douglas Paxton of Staffordshire police, wrote to all police forces last year, reminding them that they should use interpreters from the national register where possible. Forces were also reminded of the need to ensure that outsourcing did not compromise compliance with the standards set out in the national agreement.”
“I am aware that outsourcing, and the engagement and use of interpreters outside the national register, has been an issue in some police forces since about 2005, so it certainly is not a new issue. The hon. Gentleman has raised it about his area. Interpreters understandably object to outsourcing because they receive less money under that system. The average pay range for an interpreter on the national register is between £35 and £50 an hour, but could drop to as low as £15 to £20 an hour if they are employed through an agency. I can see the economics of the situation: if an interpreter has a choice of jobs, they will clearly take the higher paid rate if they can, so there is a problem with getting them to do interpreting through outsourcing.”
“As with PACE code C, the national agreement requires not that an interpreter from the National Register of Public Service Interpreters must be used, but that they should be drawn from the register where possible. That is important, because if no one from the register is readily available, there can be big challenges, and that leaves the police in a difficult position. They have to consider how long they can wait when they have someone in custody, as there are, quite rightly, legal requirements on how long people should be kept in custody. That protection is in place, and interpreting is relevant to the delay and cost to the police and criminal justice system if justice is not carried out properly or fairly.”
“The reality is that there is a shortage of interpreters, which is one issue that the Home Office and the Ministry of Justice alone cannot resolve. PACE code C requires that the outcome in article 5 of effective communication between police and the detainee is met, and advocates that, wherever possible, interpreters should be drawn from the national register. That is something that I think we would all wish to see as a paradigm. The use of interpreters in criminal proceedings, including at the police station, is governed by the national agreement on arrangements for the use of interpreters and translators in the criminal justice system, which I shall call the national agreement.”
“Members have raised are addressed. PACE code C contains specific requirements aimed at ensuring that information gathered may be admissible in court and, importantly, that the detainee understands what is happening at the police station and which matters are being put to them. That is a fundamental right. Access to an interpreter at the police station is a key safeguard in compliance with our responsibilities as a Government and as a nation under article 5 of the European convention on human rights, which states that everyone who is arrested shall be informed promptly, in a language he or she understands, of the reasons for his or her arrest and of any charge against him or her. The national register is an important and useful source of interpreters.”
“I have not discussed the issue widely, as I am not the policing Minister and it has not been a topic of conversation when I have visited police throughout the country, but from personal experience in my constituency, I can say that the police are anxious to ensure that interpreting is of good quality. They are aware of the sensitivities and issues. If they get someone who cannot do the job properly, a case might not stand up in court and there could be issues involving service to the victim or injustice to the perpetrator. There is a strong awareness among police of the need to get the right sort of interpreting. If the hon. Gentleman will let me continue, I will explain a little about some of the issues that he mentioned and what the Government are doing to work with the police to ensure that the concerns that he and other hon.”
“Members who have raised the issue with me—indeed, I know it is from my conversations with them. I hope that they will all welcome the work that we are doing to address these important problems. My hon. Friend the Minister for Security, Counter-Terrorism, Crime and Policing is aware of hon. Members’ concerns from his conversations and correspondence with them, and I know that he will keep them updated about our thinking and progress in this area.”
“Friends in the Home Office and the Ministry of Justice are considering that, but before we can make that change, we must ensure that sufficient, trained, able and competent interpreters are available to enable the police to progress their investigations and ensure that detainees are not in custody for too long. The danger with hastily introducing legislation is that if we do not have sufficient bodies on the ground to deliver what we are legislating for, we will be in the same position as we are now, with too few interpreters. That is a key issue. The key driver in ensuring quality of result for the victim and fairness for the perpetrator in any case is having good-quality interpreters. I am sure that view is shared by the hon. Gentleman and by other hon.”
“There are a number of reasons why interpreters are used, and it is right that we should consider the issue seriously and closely. We need quality services at a reasonable cost, and there should be no incentive to reduce quality. Responsible police forces will take that into account, but outsourcing alone is not the problem. The hon. Gentleman asked why we do not legislate on the matter. There are no immediate plans to do so, but it is an important option, and we are considering amending the PACE code of practice on detention to require the use of interpreters from the register only. My hon.”
“Friend the Member for Liverpool, Garston (Maria Eagle) will lead on that work. The focus of the exercise will be to determine how we can ensure that suitable, qualified interpreters are available for use throughout the criminal justice system. I repeat that the Home Office cannot solve the problem alone, but the Government can take a role in encouraging people to take up those important positions. The rising demand for interpreters is due to a number of factors. We are living in an international world, and we expect that our cities, particularly Manchester and London, will be diverse. Interpreters are sometimes called because the police are concerned about their ability to understand someone who thinks that they can speak English, and because they need to be clear that their message is getting across.”
“ACPO has started work on national scoping exercises with forces to assess current requirements and service improvements, and how they could be met. We hope that will give a clear indication to the interpreting profession of the opportunities for fully qualified interpreters in that valuable area of work. We recognise the benefits that the national agreement provides, and we need to ensure that its framework delivers the necessary service to the criminal justice system. The Government will work with key stakeholders in the criminal justice system and with the representative bodies of the interpreting profession on reviewing the current guidance. My hon. Friend the Minister for Security, Counter-Terrorism, Crime and Policing, and the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, my hon.”
“Clearly, it is also an issue in Manchester, as a number of Manchester MPs have raised it with me too. There is a challenge, but it is a little beyond the Home Office’s remit. The Government need to look into the matter, and interpreters, as a profession, need to work out why relatively few of them go into that type of work. Police forces are outsourcing their requirement for interpreters as a pragmatic approach because they need to progress investigations. They have to get the balance right, to make sure that investigations are carried out fairly, with a high level of proof, and to make sure that people are not spending time in custody unnecessarily. We must all recognise that those issues are difficult to balance, while ensuring that we maintain the quality of interpreting.”
“In particular, where the fees payable to interpreters—as distinct from those paid to the intermediary agency—are lower than those contained in the recommended Terms and Conditions for Interpreters in the CJS…they are likely to be unattractive to fully qualified interpreters who are on the” national register, “with the result that the contractor resorts to unqualified interpreters who may not be competent. This is not acceptable.” Those are ACPO’s words, and the point is fairly clear, but the critical issue is that the national register currently lists about 2,000 interpreters—a figure well below what police forces in England and Wales would deem appropriate. I see the problem in my area of London, as does my hon. Friend the Member for Eltham in his area, and he has raised the issue with me.”
“I agree that it is an important issue that we need to consider in full. My point is that the national agreement has some flexibility, and that it is right to explore the options. ACPO says that it is not aware of any outsourcing activity that does not operate in accordance with the national agreement, and I am keen to hear from hon. Members, as I have been doing, about how it is working in their areas. The national agreement says of outsourcing: “Police forces and other CJS agencies that are contemplating outsourcing the provision of interpreters must ensure that this does not compromise compliance with the standards set out in this Agreement.”
“There is much more collaboration in the team now, and its members are competing heatedly for various contracts that are now being sub-let.”
“The scheme speeds up checks, and that benefits employers and employees, because they will be able to start work sooner and their salaries will not be late. I have little time to go into what is a big area, but the suppliers went through a rigorous procurement process and, if they fell by the wayside, it was because they did not meet requirements. Hand on heart, I can say that one of the best procurement teams in the Government is dealing with the scheme. We went through a very effective procurement strategy. We set up a competition, and five companies ended up on our team of contractors which will bid for smaller contracts. That strategic suppliers’ group went through such rigorous testing that we now know the standards that we expect from it, and it does, too.”
“I stress that they were not chosen as an easy, soft-touch first group; other work was going on in the Home Office, so we decided about a year ago to align both projects. Rather than leave out the immigration scheme, there seemed to be much more sense in aligning the two as part of the same scheme. It was clearly part of the same approach. Airline pilots have sought portability for their security passes, and we have had some constructive conversations with a number of air industry organisations—perhaps more constructive than with those few that have chosen to criticise the scheme publicly. I am always happy to consult people and to discuss their concerns. It is much more helpful if they talk to us directly, rather than just going to the newspapers. The business benefits to airlines will be enormous.”
“If I present myself, my card and my PIN, I am clear that I have given permission for some information about me on the register to be verified by the person, bank—whomever I have a relationship with. No one else should be able to look up information, except in extreme circumstances, such as suspected terrorism or serious crime—and only then, when clear proof is given to the custodians of the database that the information, or a certain amount of information, is required. There will be no opportunity—not even for the police—to fish around the register to see what information can be found. It will be as secure as a military database. Nothing is ever risk free, however, and it would be irresponsible of us to suggest that. Nevertheless, it is important that I highlight those points. Foreign nationals have been very receptive to the scheme.”
“Friend, if he wishes. The scheme commissioner will work alongside the Information Commissioner’s office, with which we have had several discussions to ensure that the scheme works properly. Several legal protections are in place—for example, regarding the handful of staff who will have direct access to the register. They will amount to about 100 people. My hon. Friend rightly raised the issue of human error, but, if somebody tampers with the register, they will face a severe legal penalty, including a prison sentence. No personal information will be downloaded to USBs or discs. In fact, generally, there will be no terminals on people’s desks, as that would allow them to look up an individual with the card present. That puts the power in the hands of the citizen.”
“We recently introduced interviews for first-time adult passport applicants, and there have been some successes, with people often faltering when asked, either prior to or after an interview, for further information to verify that they are genuinely who they say they are. We have a trusted Government organisation already doing that work, and the same organisation will run the identity card scheme. My hon. Friend is right that trust is a key factor. It certainly bears on my mind as the Minister responsible for the work, and we need to ensure that we build and maintain public trust and show that we have clear and transparent approaches to tackling any breach of trust. The scheme’s commissioner will soon be appointed—we hope by the summer. His or her role is clearly laid out, and I shall happily send details of it to my hon.”
“We already have a very trusted Identity and Passport Service—71 per cent. of the population trust it to hold their information. Information from our passports is held on a database, but we will provide a far more secure database and far more secure updated information, making the card a much more useful product. In many ways, the identity card programme involves an update similar to what we have done with passports—automating the process, rather than having an old-fashioned paper-based system. My hon. Friend is right that one could counter-argue and say that several documents are more secure than one, but that is why we must get the first identity check right. The IPS is very good at doing that.”
“As one council chief executive told me, they will be able to spend more time on the people who are difficult to deal with, because they will be able to process many people whose identities will be easy to check if they choose to produce a card. Of course, under the 2006 Act, they will not be required to show the card. No one will be required to show the card to access a public service, but they can choose to do so if they wish to be dealt with quickly. The message about ID fraud is important. It is a growing concern, about which I get more letters now than I did when I started this job. People are aware of ID fraud issues, and we will soon launch work to remind people to maintain their identity securely, pointing out the various measures that the Government, across the board, can undertake to help people do so.”
“Different groups in the population have different attitudes, but I want to be very clear that there is no intention, either by the Home Office or by the Government, to extend the information that will be included on the identity card. As the Minister responsible, I am very clear that we do what we say we will do, and no more. We are very clear about that. The card will display only minimal information but, using the fingerprint and digital images, link one person to one identity, which is the key point. Making life easy and more convenient is one area, but, for public sector organisations and private businesses, it will improve efficiency, too, because procedures will be quicker and easier.”
“It will be a voluntary scheme, so people will be able to choose to continue to go down the cumbersome route of producing sheaves of paper; or, they will be able to register with the scheme. We hope that the first British citizens will register in the autumn. We will soon invite early expressions of interest and then decide the areas in which people will be able to sign up to the cards at the same time as some airport workers will receive them. The Identity Cards Act 2006 is explicit about the information that can be held—it is information that proves identity. There will be no requirement to include, for example, blood group, criminal record or health issues. Interestingly, however, some young people to whom I have spoken wondered why we were not including that information.”
“In the future, however, there will be a simple way to prove one’s identity. My hon. Friend highlighted the fact that the identity documents that we currently present reveal a lot of information about ourselves. For example, all the information on my bank statement is not something that I want someone to see when I try to prove my address. It can be difficult for many married women who operate under different names to find a utility bill in their name, and, certainly, that is increasingly difficult for younger people who do not have a telephone landline or who live in shared accommodation. The information about one’s address is on many of those documents, but it will not be on the face of the card. In producing an identity card, there will be safeguards that do not exist for the many other ways in which we currently prove our identity.”
“A birth certificate is not a suitable form of identification to prove who one is, because anyone can buy it from the General Register Office or their local council, and utility bills can fall into the wrong hands. I carry my passport around with other documents, and that is not very secure, so having one single way of proving one’s identity will be incredibly useful to people. If I have time, I shall mention how we might do so automatically. The scheme will reduce needless bureaucracy, so the long-winded process of proving one’s identity by, for example, handing over various documents to one’s local council for a parking permit will no longer be the only option. Someone may take those documents to a back room to photocopy them, keep the copies and, perhaps, lose them, as sometimes happens even with good councils.”
“Too often, however, people jump on that large figure and consider it a major area for criticism, but, if we divide it by 10, the figure is considerably lower in any case. My hon. Friend’s point about the rationale is important. Convenience is a major factor, but, when we polled the public, they were very clear that safeguarding their identity from fraud was a concern. On the subject of immigration control, messages from other parts of the Home Office about maintaining our borders were also a key factor. When we get a job, use a bank, purchase goods and access services, we need to prove our identity. Currently, we use numerous documents, and, when I was last at a parcel collection office, I saw 11 listed documents, most of which were not forms of identification.”
“Over a 10-year period, the cost of the scheme will be £4.785 million. About 70 per cent. of that, however, will be the cost of implementing secure passports with fingerprints, something that we are doing to meet international requirements that make life more convenient for British citizens travelling abroad. The operational cost of issuing the cards and maintaining the register will be recovered from fees, as we are currently required to do for passports, so there is no big pot of money waiting to be spent. I know that my hon. Friend understands that point, but it is worth highlighting for others following the debate. We do provide that level of detail, and, were we able to break out of the cost report straitjacket, perhaps we could explain it more clearly.”
“We have had a period since the Identity Cards Act 2006 became law, after it was debated in Parliament twice in 2005, when perhaps we were not communicating enough to the outside world about our plans. Inevitably, such a vacuum is filled with people’s concerns, and there probably was not a strong enough counter-voice from the Government about the benefits. I hope that I can put that straight today. First, to pick up on my hon. Friend’s comments about uncertainty over costs, this is one of the most reported cost areas in government. Every six months, a cost report is laid before Parliament. Sometimes I think that it is an inflexible way of reporting costs, perhaps for some of the reasons that he raised, because it tends to lead to people jumping on a particular large figure.”
“I am pleased to speak for the second time this afternoon, Mr. Caton. I am delighted that my hon. Friend the Member for South Derbyshire (Mr. Todd) has raised this debate. Unbelievably, this is actually the first time that I have had the chance to debate the matter as the Minister responsible since I was appointed to take responsibility for ID cards in July 2007. I very much welcome his calm and rational discussion of some important points. My hon. Friend was right to highlight the fact that during the process of the legislation and beyond, there has been uncertainty about some of the reasons why we are introducing ID cards. The Government have not been clear enough about their reasons.”
“We must ensure that we reserve our fire for other concerns about the directive. The European Centre for the Validation of Alternative Methods to animal testing is important. The directive proposes a national reference lab, but we believe that the national centre for the three R’s could be a virtual lab. It is a shame that we have so little time to discuss this important subject. Animal experimentation comes under an area of Government policy that must recognise a wide range of opinions, and I am delighted that we have been able to air some of them today.”
“Until reliables are developed, procedures have to be performed using animals, but there is not a great number, if that is any reassurance. Furthermore, there was no cosmetic testing on animals in 2007. I turn to some of the points raised by the hon. Member for Southend, West (Mr. Amess). Again, I thank the all-party group, under his chairmanship, for its work, and on non-human primates, I refer Members to Hansard of 3 February, when I went into the issue in more detail. It is important to stress that, although the directive’s provisions appear weaker than our current position, we support the European Commission’s proposal in principle, because the exemptions would be invoked only in truly exceptional circumstances. In practice, the provision amounts to an effective ban on the use of great apes, and that is consistent with our policy.”
“Friend the Member for Bristol, East (Kerry McCarthy) raised the issue of household product testing, and it is clearly a concern. In terms of my ministerial mailbag, it is the biggest issue, other than immigration, that I deal with. There is little animal testing of household products in the UK. One animal—a rabbit—was used for the purpose in 2007 and none was used in 2006. Although the numbers are small, the case for ending such testing is not clear cut. Many household products have significant benefits, such as killing bacteria and germs, and national and international regulatory bodies require that products, ingredients and chemicals are tested to ensure that they are not a danger to children, adults, households pets and the environment.”
“The Freedom of Information Act 2000 also applies, and we have replied to more than 50 freedom of information requests. Unfortunately, we have had extremists in this country, but, happily, they are now generally in prison or have been dealt with appropriately. It has been difficult to be as transparent as we would have liked, because even publishing the address of a laboratory has caused problems, but we are not trying to hide information. We have to strike a balance between ensuring the safety and security of legitimate scientists doing legitimate and safe work, and ensuring that we provide as much information as we can. On the refusal of applications, inspectors recognise poor applications early in the process and discourage applicants from applying. My hon.”
“And, on refinement, there is a mouse-based test using pre-disease end points—rather than a guinea pig test involving skin sores—to determine whether the test materials might cause contact dermatitis. They are just some examples that I can provide quickly in this debate, but I recommend that anyone with an interest in this important subject look at the national centre’s own work and report. I know that the all-party FRAME group keeps a close eye on it, and I thank the group for its work, because it is important that we have a reasoned debate. The group provides a good forum for such debate on a cross-party basis, and I am delighted that it has helped to secure today’s debate under the sponsorship of my hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland, North.”
“Although breeding alone counts for just over one third of the UK’s use of animals, many will be subsequently used, albeit only for analysis after their humane killing. Hon. Members asked whether the national centre for the three R’s has achieved any results, and I refer them to its annual report. On replacement, we now require that monoclonal antibodies be produced in cell cultures. That is a step forward; it is not done with animals but in cell cultures. The majority of tests for toxins in shellfish no longer use mice, so that is another replacement. On reduction, the use of in-vitro screening tests to reduce the number of animals needed to identify potential skin irritants has also been successful.”
“The creation of such animals involves a number of surgical and non-surgical procedures, which generate a founder’s stock. The process is currently counted as a procedure under European legislation, so simple breeding counts as a procedure. Maintaining colonies involves breeding from the founder’s stock and, in most cases, the tissue sampling of an offspring to determine their genetic status—again, a procedure that is counted. Breeding per se is not a procedure, but producing genetically altered animals is, so whatever one’s view about genetic modification and alteration, the process alone does not lead to suffering, although, in some cases, offspring will develop the disease involved, so suffering will take place there. In many cases, however, offspring are overtly normal.”
“There has been some criticism of the fact that licences are not refused, but the inspectorate, which is locally based, goes out regularly to the labs for which it is responsible and holds discussions with the licensees while an application is being prepared. If it were not up to scratch, it would not get as far as submission; it would have to be modified or withdrawn. We obviate the need for unnecessary paperwork, where people submit pointless and bad licence applications, and we give them guidance in the same way as a good local authority planning officer would. Planning officers do not receive bad applications if they have such dialogue, so it is important that we do so, too. The point was made about genetically altered animals, so I shall explain the process.”
“In the United Kingdom in 1995, there were 677,000 instances of such work, but in 2007, the figure had gone down to 416,000. New opportunities, especially in molecular genetics, cancer research and immunology, have led to new uses and an increase in numbers, but it would be difficult to say to the public, “We are so obsessed with the statistics that we want a reduction, even if it is at the cost of cancer research.” We have to strike a balance, but the Home Office is clear that no licence is granted willy-nilly; it must be clear that there is no alternative and that there is a real scientific purpose to the work.”
“That was mainly fundamental research, including the breeding of transgenic mice and fish. Hon. Members, including the hon. Member for Harrogate and Knaresborough, raised the issue of transgenic breeding. I must tell him that I visited Covance and saw some of the work there, so I recognise the characterisation given by the hon. Member for Bournemouth, West (Sir John Butterfill) of scientists being not big, bad people trying to do horrible things to animals but people who are keen on and enthusiastic about animals. Certainly, those whom I met are, and that includes the veterinary scientists who work there, too. The overall number of procedures has increased, but the use of animals in safety testing for regulatory purposes has declined steadily.”
“We are also required to consult on substantive changes to the context and coverage of the figures, and we have many debates with different interested groups—mostly practitioners, but those with an animal welfare focus, too—about how we collect them. We ensure that we listen to those views and take them on board where we can. I reassure colleagues that we have no plans to reduce the scope of the current figures. We want to give a full and accurate account of scientific procedures under the 1986 Act, and it is important to be clear that we are not trying to hide anything. On the statistics, in 2007, the main increases in testing, compared with the same period in 2006, were on mice, which went up 7 per cent., on fish, up 20 per cent., and on chickens, up 16 per cent.”
“In fact, I am told that our handwritten records go back to 1876, when the Cruelty to Animals Act was introduced, so Members could take on a lot of reading if they wished to research the subject. Our statistical analysis has improved somewhat since then, and we have not hidden any facts. The statistics are produced under the provisions of the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986. They are also part of the national statistics framework and under the management of the Home Office’s independent chief statistician, who is accountable to the national statistician. The statistics are also subject to the UK Statistics Authority’s new code of practice for official statistics, and those governance arrangements demonstrate that we are not trying to hide anything.”
“With the interests of animal welfare firmly at heart, we have to strike a balance between a number of interested groups without stymieing UK science plc and the important work that scientists do in helping to cure the diseases and resolve the scourges of this world. The inspectorate’s report also contains features on topics of special interest. This year, for example, we intend it to include the work of our policy and licensing teams, and I commend it to Members present as good reading. My hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland, North focused on statistics today, and, importantly, I stress my belief that our statistics are robust; I must differ with him on that point. We publish comprehensive statistics annually, and they have been collected and published for many years.”