Dame Meg Hillier
MP for Hackney South and Shoreditch · Labour (Co-op) · United Kingdom
“On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker, I have huge respect for the Minister, but she has said that she will not take any interventions. She is a very good Minister, and I trust that she will answer in detail the points that have been raised in the House today; having discussions with her and the Government after the debate is too late…”
“My hon. Friend talks about who makes our laws, and she has talked in articles that she has written about the primacy of this place. If the Bill goes forward, is she willing to accept amendments?”
“I welcome my right hon. Friend to her place and thank her for that response, which demonstrates the complications of these schemes. I asked the National Audit Office to look into this, and yesterday the Public Accounts Committee published its report on compensation schemes, suggesting that a central body be established.”
“I am pleased by my right hon. Friend’s answer, but she is in a unique position across Government to ensure that we are protecting not only women, but those who are blind or have visual impairments, who really value this technology.”
“I welcome the Chancellor’s clampdown on speculation and leaks ahead of the Budget; it is certainly an important step he has taken. On the issue of certainty, the National Wealth Fund is a critical investor in crowding in private investment around the UK. I noted that he has changed the remit.”
“Further to the points made by my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth East (Tom Hayes), it is important that we talk here and that we have diplomacy, but what practical actions are the Foreign Office and the Ministry of Defence taking to ensure that there is a review of physical defence and security, so that we send a clear message to t…”
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“I appreciate the Minister taking time to meet me to discuss this because, without the Executive and Assembly in place, there is no real scrutiny of these budgets and it is the Northern Ireland Audit Office that has that particular role. It is important, therefore, and I remain disappointed that its funding is not where it should be. I know that the amendment was not selected, but the Minister is talking to the right hon. and learned Member for South Swindon (Sir Robert Buckland), and the Chair of the Select Committee, the hon. Member for North Dorset (Simon Hoare), about the proposal that the Northern Ireland Assembly Audit Committee may continue to exercise its power even without an Executive. If that is something the Government are willing to discuss, I will be interested in being involved in those discussions.”
“The hour is late so I will cut to the chase, but I think it is worth underlining the views outlined by those from the Front Bench on both sides that the best way to resolve the issues and debates around the Northern Ireland budget will be if the Executive is meeting. It is a terrible shame that we are still debating and setting the budget here. That is not something the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland should be doing and I am very concerned that the situation continues. I rise because of my particular interest as Chair of the Public Accounts Committee in the UK in the oversight and investigations of the Northern Ireland Audit Office in making sure the money allocated to the Northern Ireland Office and Departments in Northern Ireland is properly scrutinised.”
“I thank the Minister for that answer, and I am sure—and I know—he will take this very seriously. I have had three constituents in the last year come to see me who have suffered serious brain tumours, and they have had a very similar pathway, which is basically that after a certain point there is little the NHS can do for them. In particular, there is a shortage of neuro-oncologists, and one has spent their life savings on private treatment, even though that was difficult to find. Is there any hope, in the NHS workforce plan, that there will be more oncology training and more support for neuro-oncology, because the survival rate for this cancer is still woefully low?”
“I draw the House’s attention to the fact that I am a trustee of the parliamentary contributory pension fund. Forgive me if I am a little sceptical about Government involvement in pension funds. We have seen how the annual and lifetime allowances, announced at the Dispatch Box by a former Chancellor, have played out. It was also this Government who took us through McCloud in the public sector. The Minister said that the average earner who starts saving at 18 could increase the size of their pension pot by 12% over their career. Can he give the House examples of the assumptions behind that figure, and will he publish the modelling behind it?”
“The Northern Ireland Audit Office will not be able to carry out its work without that money, so I hope the Minister will address that point directly in his response. Perhaps he will even commit to going away and looking at what the impact will be. Could he or the Secretary of State please commit to having a face-to-face conversation with the Comptroller and Auditor General for Northern Ireland?”
“That has left councillors, council tax payers, and certain officers of those councils blind as to the decisions they are making. A number of councils have serious financial problems, and for some, that is partly because of this issue. In the past, strong local audit in local government has helped to keep councils honest, straight and true. I have great respect for local councils and councillors— I myself was a councillor before entering this place—but we have seen a real, direct impact of that weakness in audit among English councils, and we are seeing that creeping tendency with hospitals in England, too. We fiddle with this issue at our peril, and in the grand scheme of things, half a million pounds is a lot of money.”
“It is through this Parliament and the Public Accounts Commission that we decide on the resources that are given to the United Kingdom’s National Audit Office. It is not at all appropriate that an Executive should control or direct an audit institution’s access to resources. I cannot get my head around why that could have happened, because it is absolutely vital that it does not. I hope the Minister will directly address that point. I will finish by underlining the problems that can arise when audit gets weak. The Public Accounts Committee, which I chair, has looked repeatedly at the challenge of local government audit in England. We have seen a dearth of public auditors, which has contributed to late audit opinions: very many councils now have not had audit opinions, not just for one year but for two.”
“She had modelled various options and put them forward to the Northern Ireland Department of Finance, but when they were in turn put forward to the Secretary of State, he put forward three options, none of which reflected what she had modelled. There had been no engagement with the Northern Ireland Audit Office. That is a serious constitutional issue—in the middle of a much bigger constitutional issue, yes, but nevertheless it is very important. If we cannot have a strong and independent Comptroller and Auditor General with their own national audit body, properly funded and supported, that is a real concern, but the fact that the Northern Ireland Audit Office’s funding was not properly discussed with it is a really serious matter.”
“That is rightfully the role of the Public Accounts Committee of Northern Ireland, which we hope will be up and running again, as we hope that the Assembly and the Executive will be up and running again. I am concerned that the Comptroller and Auditor General for Northern Ireland had no engagement with the Secretary of State or the Northern Ireland Office when arriving at the Budget. Only a couple of weeks ago, she told the Northern Ireland Affairs Select Committee that her only conversation with the Secretary of State and the Northern Ireland Office was via the Department of Finance, and she only learned of her budget on its publication.”
“We have already had to examine the implementation of the energy support grant, which came directly through the then Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy and was implemented in Northern Ireland through that route. Unusually, we found ourselves scrutinising direct spending in Northern Ireland. I was very grateful to the hon. Member for Belfast South (Claire Hanna), who was able to guest on our Committee—we felt very strongly that we needed at least a voice from Northern Ireland on the Committee to explain what the impact was there—but neither myself nor any members of the Public Accounts Committee desire to have a regular role in scrutinising the work and affairs of public bodies and Departments in Northern Ireland.”
“Very disappointingly—I am particularly disappointed in the Secretary of State on this point—that reduction was made without any meaningful conversation or agreement with the Comptroller and Auditor General for Northern Ireland, which is a required position. That amount of money will have a substantial impact on the ability of the Northern Ireland Audit Office to deliver its work, and with the only scrutiny that is going on in Northern Ireland being through that audit office, it is really important that that work takes place. I also worry greatly that if the Northern Ireland Audit Office is not able to do its work, the pressure on the UK Public Accounts Committee—which I have the privilege of chairing—will be immense.”
“She, like the UK Comptroller and Auditor General is totally independent of Ministers, of Government Departments and of all the public bodies that her office audits. The NIAO has 115 staff—it is a much smaller version of the UK NAO, which has over 950 staff—and an annual budget in the region of £9 million, so it is very small in the context of this budget. About 0.06% of the block grant goes to the Northern Ireland Audit Office, but as the Secretary of State knows, it has a significant impact. The amount of money saved by the national audit bodies is significant in the grand scheme of things, so it is disappointing to me that the budget of the Northern Ireland Audit Office has been reduced by £515,000. I think that will store up problems for the future.”
“It is a much bigger body, and as the Secretary of State, a former member of the Public Accounts Committee, knows, it does invaluable work, not only training Ministers to manage budgets but making sure on behalf of the British taxpayer, through Parliament, that those budgets are spent properly. Independent of the Executive and appointed independently of the Executive, the Comptroller and Auditor General has the powers to investigate, without fear or favour, every area of public spending in England and parts of the United Kingdom. The Northern Ireland Audit Office is a much smaller operation, ably headed up by the Comptroller and Auditor General for Northern Ireland, Dorinnia Carville.”
“I wrote to the Minister about this, so I hope that when he winds up, the Minister of State will address the matter directly. The Northern Ireland Audit Office is critical: with no Assembly sitting and no Executive, it is the only body able to scrutinise spending by public bodies in Northern Ireland; it audits 150 public bodies. Of course, without the Assembly sitting there is no Public Accounts Committee in Northern Ireland, so the NIAO is the only body that is able to do that work. It is critical that it does so. We all know the importance of the National Audit Office here in the United Kingdom.”
“I share the disappointment that we are here today expressed by the Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Hove (Peter Kyle), and the hon. Member for Gordon (Richard Thomson). We should not have to be here discussing this, although I appreciate that we have already made a decision about the budget and that this was absolutely necessary to enable Departments to spend. I, too, pay tribute to the civil servants who are having to make very political decisions while labouring—I hope—under Managing Public Money and making sure that they are making proper financial decisions. Nevertheless, every decision they make on a budget of this nature will cause political repercussions. They have been put in an unenviable position. I rise to speak about a specific element of this budget.”
“My concern is that it is a disproportionately large cut to a very small budget. It means that the Comptroller and Auditor General for Northern Ireland cannot complete her work programme for this year, and there is nobody else—no Executive, no Public Accounts Committee, no Assembly—that can do that job.”
“At the moment, these include social care, affordable childcare and community energy. Where Hackney cannot in-source services and there are existing co-ops, it wants to look to local businesses, social enterprises and co-ops first, working across departments to ensure that contracts are designed to make it possible for co-ops to tender. I should perhaps flag to the Minister one of the challenges. Sometimes in local government it is difficult for co-ops to meet the required threshold, because of some of the restrictions set at different times, in different eras and by different Governments, including different central Governments, which perhaps do not understand the benefit of a local community co-op.”
“Co-ops are a really great way to give people control and power over their own homes. I have mentioned east London. As the MP for Hackney South and Shoreditch, of course I will focus on what my own borough is doing, under the excellent leadership of Mayor Philip Glanville, a Labour and Co-op mayor who was directly elected by the residents of Hackney. In setting its budget for the current financial year of 2023-24, Hackney set aside £70,000 to support the creation of co-ops, in order to deliver services where there is market failure and no business case for in-sourcing. Hackney has a good track record of in-sourcing many services, including our street sweeping and cleansing, but where there is not the right case—perhaps because the service is too small—Mayor Glanville wants to consider alternatives.”
“For example, a community building has been built on a disused playing field next to Edgbaston reservoir, and the land is now used for growing food. Again, that project is very much rooted in the local community. In January, Liverpool City Council adopted a community-led housing policy, which aims to unlock vacant land and properties for community groups to convert into new homes. The policy was devised in collaboration with local community groups. These groups are already forming land trusts and co-ops, and they will work alongside council officers and community-led housing advisers to build new houses. In my own constituency, I know the vital importance of housing, the problem of shortage, the overcrowding situation and how little empowerment there is for many residents, whether they are private renters or council tenants.”
“In London and Greater London, the London Growth Hub, under Mayor Sadiq Khan, will be tasked with increasing the growth of co-ops across different London boroughs, replicating—we hope—the successes of the South Yorkshire Growth Hub. It is significant that the hubs provide knowledge and expertise, because sometimes one of the barriers to setting up a co-op is that, seen from the outside, there are some seemingly complex legal models that have to be established, but they are not so complex if a business has a helping hand to guide it through. Moving to the west midlands, Birmingham City Council has taken a community economic development planning approach, which engages residents, community groups, local businesses and voluntary sector organisations as part of its economic development projects.”
“They began initially in South Yorkshire under the former Mayor, my hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley Central (Dan Jarvis). The ownership hub model has also been launched in Greater London. The aim of that is to promote both co-operative and employee-owned business growth. In South Yorkshire, the collaborative partnership works with the combined local authorities in the region and the South Yorkshire Growth Hub, where businesses can get support to set up or indeed convert their organisation to worker or employee ownership. The South Yorkshire Growth Hub has experienced and knowledgeable advisers, who can offer support on setting up new businesses, upskilling workers and gaining access to finance.”
“Mayor Burnham is going back to the roots of his region. The commission focused on recommendations in three sectors: housing, the digital economy and transport. They were all chosen because of their fit with the Greater Manchester strategy. The commission promoted co-ops to reduce inequality, improve education and employment. Its stated aim is “To help co-ops to expand into other areas of the economy to make Greater Manchester the most co-operative region in the UK.” I may have a bone to pick with Mayor Burnham, because I hope that east London might beat him to that title. Nevertheless, the Mayor accepted those recommendations by the commission, so that work is now under way to ensure that co-ops play an important role in the north-west. Ownership hubs have been set up in several combined authorities across the UK.”
“It is interesting that co-ops have a smaller gender pay gap than other businesses: 9% compared with 12%, based on the median hourly wage in Great Britain, and covering Northern Ireland as well. That may be because co-ops have a flatter pay scale and less of a hierarchy, but that is nevertheless a significant fact when looking at that important issue. I want to highlight what local government is doing to promote co-ops. I will start my canter around the country with Greater Manchester and its Co-operative Commission, which was established by the Greater Manchester Combined Authority and launched by Mayor Andy Burnham, to make recommendations aimed at enabling the co-operative and mutual sector to make the best possible contribution to Greater Manchester. Of course, that is very fitting considering where the Rochdale pioneers came from.”
“Some people might ask why promote co-ops rather than other businesses. Co-ops are more ambitious than other businesses, according to research by the Co-op party and its allies. As many as 61% of co-ops expressed ambitions to grow, compared with 53% of small businesses generally in the UK. That might be because some are smaller, so it is easier for them to have that ambition. Obviously, businesses are going through a difficult time at the moment. Nevertheless, that is a sign of people’s personal investment in co-operatives. Co-operatives are more resilient. Co-op start-ups are almost twice as likely to survive the first five years of trading, compared with start-ups generally. Co-ops were more resilient in the pandemic, with the number growing by just over 1% between 2020 and 2021.”
“There are 14 million people in the UK who are members of co-ops. This is a significant sector that reaches into many areas of our lives. Co-ops directly employ 250,000 people. In 2015, co-ops produced 2% of the UK’s GDP. That is impressive enough but, compared with New Zealand where co-ops produce 20%, France and the Netherlands, where they produce 18% in each, and Finland where they produce 14% of GDP, there is still a lot of opportunity, to put it positively, for co-ops in the UK. There is also a lot of wasted opportunity, when considering what they could do to deliver for communities and the wider economy. In 2021, UK co-operatives had an annual turnover of £39.7 billion, and they have grown every year since 2017. They are significant and important in economic terms.”
“They put economic power directly in the hands of local people, ensuring that the benefits of economic growth are felt by those who create it. As I said, I want to highlight the role of councils. There are now 41 councils up and down the country that are members of the co-operative councils’ innovation network. Those councils believe that traditional models of top-down governance and economic growth are not always fit for purpose. By being part of that network, they choose to reclaim the traditions of community action, community engagement and civic empowerment that can transform communities. There were 7,200 co-operatives in the UK in 2021. Those include 2,500 social clubs in the trade union sector; 721 in retail; and 720 in housing, which is an area of particular interest to me.”
“I beg to move, That this House has considered the role of local authorities in supporting co-operatives and alternative businesses. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Dowd. I am proud to declare my interest as a Labour and Co-op MP since 2005, and as a member of a co-operative society. I shall discuss the importance of co-operatives and alternative businesses. It is great to see the Minister here because I want to talk in particular about how councils have a role in promoting co-ops in their areas. It is worth giving the basic background. Co-operatives are mutual societies, often locally based, that invest their profits with their members and services. That means that they are very much part of the local community, with their activity and finances in that local area.”
“The Minister making the decision must have full knowledge of the possibilities and possible challenges, and co-ops must be considered as part of the solution.”
“Unfortunately, I was unable to get that mutual off the ground for various reasons—many co-ops face a challenge with capital funding—but that drove home to me the fact that we need a central hub in Government that can point people to advice about co-operatives, and I have been banging that drum ever since, in all these years in opposition. The Treasury, the Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities, the Department for Business and Trade, and other Departments such as the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, would benefit from that understanding. We need a hub that is open to Departments so that when advice on alternative models is needed, co-ops are considered.”
“Many years ago, when Labour was last in government—it does seem like a long time ago—I was looking to mutualise the then Forensic Science Service, and I asked for guidance from the Government. I was a Minister in the Home Office, which was, perhaps understandably, not an expert on co-operatives and mutual ownership, so it commissioned advice elsewhere in Whitehall. To my horror, what landed on my desk was a document about John Lewis. I feel no horror about John Lewis, I have to say, but its model of employee ownership was not what we were looking at. It was almost as if there was no real understanding of what mutualism was.”
“I should declare, as an interest, that I am a friend of the Hackney Empire—that will hardly surprise Members—and a regular visitor to its fantastic pantomime. The fund also provided solar panels for the Mildmay club in north Hackney, in the constituency of my right hon. Friend the Member for Hackney North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott), and Parkwood Primary School. Those panels provide enough electricity for one third of those properties’ energy use, equivalent to 35 homes. If the first round of funding can deliver that, it has real potential. The Minister is very welcome to visit if that would be helpful. We need a real understanding in Government about what co-ops can deliver.”
“A few years ago, it established Hackney Light and Power, which is the energy services arm of the council, and that local company launched a £300,000 community energy fund last year, which aims to support innovative community-led energy projects that benefit Hackney. That amazing programme ensures that Hackney generates its own energy for local use. That reduces energy costs for many consumers; long may it succeed. We must see locally generated energy for local use as a way to tackle the challenge of climate change. The first round of funding from that £300,000 community energy fund provided funding for solar panels on the Hackney Empire, our fantastic local theatre. I say “local”—it is nationally renowned, but we are proud to call it our local theatre in Hackney.”
“Hackney Co-operative Developments, which has been established for a long time, is being supported by the council through the provision of properties at sub-market rent, capital investment in those properties—that can be hard for small co-ops—and targeted funding for business support and outreach projects so that that fantastic project can spread its expertise to other organisations in Hackney and help to build the co-op sector. Hackney Co-operative Developments understands the technical and legal aspects of setting up a co-op better than anyone, as do similar organisations in other areas up and down the country, so it is right that the council supports it in that way. That relates to the ask that I will have for the Minister in a moment. Hackney has also set up a community energy fund.”
“I thank the hon. Gentleman for his kind comments and for that valid point. One of the many advantages of local co-ops is that they and the benefits are owned by the local population, and the profit is redistributed to the very people who helped to generate it. Although I have talked about small-scale co-ops, of course they can be larger; there are many such co-operative businesses up and down the country. I am focusing on how councils can facilitate co-operatives in their own areas, so by definition I am talking about the local. Mayor Philip Glanville has established, among the elected councillors, a member champion for inclusive business, social enterprise and co-operatives. The role is held by Councillor Sam Pallis, who does an excellent job in promoting these issues. There have been some success stories in Hackney.”
“It does not need to be in Whitehall; I am all for having those provisions outside of London. Although I am a London MP, I think it is important that we support those sectors across different parts of the country. I really want to see a central Government unit set up to support co-ops. I hope the Minister will take those points on board. I know that she cannot answer them all. Co-operatives cover every sector of the economy and every part of Whitehall’s responsibilities. I know that she is a champion within Whitehall for local government, so I hope that she will pass on these thoughts and comments to her fellow Ministers.”
“If we look at regions—this is very much in the Minister’s bag—if co-operative development is a central strand of economic development outcomes for combined local authorities, then there will be more than what has been happening in Greater Manchester and elsewhere. It is something that could be used to drive up economic growth in the country. The mutual route is an entry-level way for a lot of people to get into business opportunities. A regional co-operative development agency, to model, co-ordinate and support the co-op sector, would be an excellent initiative. It would not be massively resource intensive; in fact, if the Minister took one of the big, regional local authorities—for example, Greater Manchester —and boosted it, that could be the hub.”
“In that respect, if they are involved they need to be involved properly but, better still, they can actually bid. Greenwich Leisure Ltd was a co-operative social enterprise, but it is now running leisure centres across London and elsewhere as Better Ltd. That is a mutual that is delivering for local people, and it is now big enough potentially to bid for bigger contracts. From small co-ops these larger opportunities grow. There may be work that needs to be done to provide additional support to those businesses, such as open roundtables, discussions or opportunities for drop-ins for those businesses to come and talk to Government about what they need to do to meet Government procurement requirements. I have highlighted some of the regional and local government support that goes on.”
“As well as a central unit, it is important that the Government ensures that procurement opportunities are open and available to alternative businesses, so that we do not just set up a central procurement model that allows the big beasts—the big strategic suppliers of Government—to bid, without taking into account options for smaller businesses, including co-operatives, to bid. That may be beyond the Minister’s personal gift today, but I am sure she can take it back to relevant Ministers. It is important that we consider what co-operatives can bring to the table. There is a requirement to have social value in a number of contracts now, but we cannot have co-ops as an added-on extra to a big contract from one of the big strategic suppliers, there to salve Government or community conscience.”
“Absolutely. As I have said, co-operatives invest back into their own communities, especially the small local co-ops—not every business does that. It is really important that we recognise what the benefits are. Like other hon. Members, I have community shops in my constituency as well as food banks, in which people can buy food and get double the value of what they paid. The fantastic community shop on the Kingsmead estate is staffed by local young people who volunteer their time. There is dignity there for the people who come into the shop; they pay for their shopping but get much more than they paid for. They can get fresh fruit and vegetables as well as other products. Community shops are an important and valuable resource.”
“I thank all hon. Members who have contributed. The House has heard the passion that we all have for co-ops and how they can invest wealth back into the communities that generate that wealth, as well as the vital role of local authorities in championing that in their areas. We need to see co-ops go from strength to strength. It is appropriate that we have had this debate in Co-op Fortnight, so I thank Mr Speaker for granting it, and I thank all hon. Members, you in the Chair, Mr Dowd, and officials for the support. Question put and agreed to. Resolved, That this House has considered the role of local authorities in supporting co-operatives and alternative businesses.”
“It is interesting to hear about the Mountbatten, which I spent many years at when it opened, when I was a child. The hospice in my constituency, St. Joseph’s Hospice, is really cutting-edge, but the retrospective payment for nurses will cost it £470,000, and it cannot apply that yet because it has no certainty from commissioners about its funding. To keep it up will be another half a million a year, and it cannot afford that without certainty of funding. I am sure the hon. Member agrees that we need to press the Minister for some clarity on this.”
“I rise to speak to a number of amendments. It is worth highlighting that the bread and butter of the work of the Public Accounts Committee, which I have the privilege of chairing, is looking at procurement—failed procurement in particular—and making sure that we get on the record and into the brain of Whitehall the lessons learned from those failures. We have also been at the forefront of looking at procurement during covid, and we did our first inquiries into that as early as June 2020. I want to place on record my thanks for the hard work of the National Audit Office, which immediately pivoted to online working to enable us to continue our scrutiny of the Government as a cross-party parliamentary Committee.”
“Friend the Member for Barking (Dame Margaret Hodge) tabled amendments that would ensure that organisations involved in nefarious activities are excluded from public procurement. It is extraordinary that companies that are making money in nefarious ways can bolster their activity and give themselves credibility through public procurement. Others have talked a lot about the issues around China, so I will not go into that much more. My right hon. Friend has a strong reputation in this area, and her amendments speak for themselves. We do not want to miss this opportunity. I recognise that not everything in procurement is about legislation. It would give me some comfort, as Chair of the Public Accounts Committee, if the Minister showed that that is being thought about a bit more deeply across Whitehall.”
“Gentleman is bang on about making sure we do not send good money after bad. If something is not working, we need the evidence and the political courage, sometimes, to end the contract. We need to make sure that the people delivering a contract are clear that they are delivering the contract’s aims. Evaluation should have the impact of tightening procurement, tightening the management of contracts by the civil service and sharpening up those who bid for contracts to do a better job and to be proud of that job, in the knowledge that doing a good job may well mean that the contract is extended, but not if they do not do a good job. We should also reward good behaviour. I am keen to hear what the Minister has to say about that. My right hon.”
“I agree with the hon. Gentleman. Of course, if evaluation is built in from the beginning, the company that has been contracted to do the work would be required to collect data. They will say that that involves more cost but, over time, it would wash out. We need a better standard of data collection on all sorts of issues. Take the example of a contractor that was asked to run a prison. The Government provided data on the prison’s maintenance, but the data was not right as it did not count the number of windows and toilets, and so on, that needed to be fixed, so the company had to come in and count them. In that case, the company had not banked on prisoners breaking more windows than the average in other buildings. There is lots of data, and we keep pushing for it to be collected, and that data could be built into evaluations. The hon.”
“Many schools up and down the country still have asbestos in them and are getting to a dangerous state. It is all very well telling governing bodies to identify the asbestos, but there is not much incentive if there is no special or directed funding available to remove it and that is beyond the budget of an individual school. What is the Minister going to do to make sure asbestos is removed from our school buildings?”
“In all of this heat, it might be wise to be clear about the independent role of the NAO. The Comptroller and Auditor General has letters patent from the King and reports to this House, not to Government. He is independent and makes his own decisions, and it was his independent decision that it would be appropriate, because of the size of the site, to offer the opportunity to do an audit. It is then a matter for the Secretary of State to decide whether or not he asks for that to happen. It is a three-legged stool, because then the local organisations have to agree to open their books, too. It is important to be clear on the record that the NAO is not making political decisions here; it is a very independent decision by the chief auditor of this country.”
“I draw the House’s attention to my entry in the Register of Member’s Financial Interests and to the fact that I am a leaseholder. Ten days ago, I met some of my residents who are leaseholders. They are yet another group of residents in Hackney who are frustrated by the inaction and slow actions of their freeholder. They desperately want commonhold and yet, despite a manifesto commitment in 2019 and promises from Secretaries of State in each of the past three years, we have seen nothing from this Government. Why is this dither and delay continuing?”
“The Prime Minister promised integrity, professionalism and accountability. I think we can all agree that the first two were shot long ago, even before this latest incident. As for accountability, he has now taken personal responsibility for this, but I am sure the Minister would agree that the real accountability is now down to the British people at the next general election, which needs to come sooner rather than later.”
“As the Secretary of State just said, the additional police officers will lead to more court cases, but as we heard from the previous exchange, there is a huge backlog, which the Public Accounts Committee has looked at. When our Committee challenged his Department’s officials on this issue, we were not convinced that there has been proper planning for how those additional cases will be managed on top of the existing court backlog. Can he give us any up-to-date reassurance?”