Dame Meg Hillier
MP for Hackney South and Shoreditch · Labour (Co-op) · United Kingdom
“On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker, I have huge respect for the Minister, but she has said that she will not take any interventions. She is a very good Minister, and I trust that she will answer in detail the points that have been raised in the House today; having discussions with her and the Government after the debate is too late…”
“My hon. Friend talks about who makes our laws, and she has talked in articles that she has written about the primacy of this place. If the Bill goes forward, is she willing to accept amendments?”
“I welcome my right hon. Friend to her place and thank her for that response, which demonstrates the complications of these schemes. I asked the National Audit Office to look into this, and yesterday the Public Accounts Committee published its report on compensation schemes, suggesting that a central body be established.”
“I am pleased by my right hon. Friend’s answer, but she is in a unique position across Government to ensure that we are protecting not only women, but those who are blind or have visual impairments, who really value this technology.”
“I welcome the Chancellor’s clampdown on speculation and leaks ahead of the Budget; it is certainly an important step he has taken. On the issue of certainty, the National Wealth Fund is a critical investor in crowding in private investment around the UK. I noted that he has changed the remit.”
“Further to the points made by my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth East (Tom Hayes), it is important that we talk here and that we have diplomacy, but what practical actions are the Foreign Office and the Ministry of Defence taking to ensure that there is a review of physical defence and security, so that we send a clear message to t…”
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Every one of 4,811 lines we hold for Dame Meg Hillier, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 71 of 97.
“I am delighted about the investigation into domestic fuel prices, which my hon. Friend the Member for North West Durham (Pat Glass) and the official Opposition have been calling for, and glad that the Government have finally acted. Rising oil prices, as my hon. Friend the Member for Streatham (Mr Umunna) and others have indicated, are only part of the problem. The Government’s record on standing up for consumers is, frankly, very poor. In recent months, we have seen price rises of between 2% and more than 9% from all the main energy suppliers, yet Ministers sit back and refuse to intervene. We have seen Consumer Focus abolished, with insouciance from the Secretary of State on what that means for consumers.”
“We heard from the Secretary of State about speeding the transition to the low-carbon economy, and his Minister has reiterated the Government’s commitment. If we were to measure the Secretary of State’s success by headlines, as I am sure he is often keen to do, then we, like him, would say “A good job done.” However, we judge on actions, not words, and we have seen nothing but confusion, dither and indecision. There is no detail on the renewable heat incentive, and change is afoot on feed-in tariffs and the green investment bank. Today we hear again that there will be discussions on the green investment bank, but when will the Minister decide on it, or is the Department simply being hobbled by the Treasury?”
“Well, all sound and fury signifying, so far, nothing. Let us be clear: there is talk about the new green investment bank, but no new money, and no detail, and different dates for when we will hear about it. Why? Because the announcement was made by the Secretary of State at the time of the comprehensive spending review without a deal having been pinned down with the Treasury. We are still waiting. When will we have the detail on the green investment bank and when will businesses get the certainty about investment that they need for green growth?”
“Even if energy market reform is successful, can the Secretary of State tell the House what plans he has to improve things for consumers now, as we approach a harsh winter and the measures that I mentioned?”
“Labour Members are also pleased that Ofgem is looking into energy pricing. The Government seem to be in a funny place. They appear to accept that energy prices will increase and that that is a price the British public will have to pay, to a degree, for a greener future, but we know that prices rise for many reasons, as the Secretary of State acknowledged. Given the Government’s proposals to increase VAT from January, freeze pay, cut funding to public services and oversee huge job losses, increased energy bills will add to hardship. At the same time, the Government are abolishing Consumer Focus, which battles on behalf of consumers. We have heard lots today about the theory, but consumers are facing the challenges now.”
“Given the impact on British business, job creation and the climate, a properly functioning bank cannot wait, and this confusion is very unhelpful to British business. Will he tell the House what is happening?”
“Given the list that the Secretary of State just read out, one would think that he sees himself as Action Man, but we heard this week that he describes himself as Tesco Man. Last time I questioned the Government about green investment, the Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change, the hon. Member for Bexhill and Battle (Gregory Barker), reassured the House that plans for the green investment bank would be unveiled in the spring. Yesterday, I read that the Secretary of State has lost out to the Treasury and that this much-vaunted green investment bank is to be a fund with nowhere near enough resources to generate the £200 billion necessary for investment in green technologies. The question is whether the country has lost out.”
“Will he consider joining me, as the advocate of co-operative climate change, in working for the benefit of all, with the green dividend and green investment shared fairly through an up-and-running bank?”
“We still do not have certainty. We hear that the matter is “under review” but we believed that it was a Government commitment. I am proud to be the first Labour/Co-op shadow Secretary of State for climate change, and the Secretary of State has described himself as very happy to be the Tesco of the energy industry. Yet without the green investment bank, whichever model we choose, we will not see the benefits that we want to see. The Minister of State, the hon. Member for Bexhill and Battle, spoke earlier of the importance of community energy and smaller suppliers; we want energy to benefit all. We want to see this bank up and running, and the Secretary of State will have support from the Opposition if it gets going.”
“He is, we know, as we heard earlier this week, working closely with European partners. On Monday, he assured the House, with some feeling, that the Government are united on their position in Europe, but what is the true picture? The statement is on electricity market reform, but given that we enter this winter with the worse gas storage for many years, does the Secretary of State also intend to make proposals on gas infrastructure and storage; and, if so, when? Finally, will the Secretary of State give certainty to industry and to people who are already paying inflated energy bills that this programme will be enough to encourage energy companies to invest in the UK, to create the jobs that this country needs and, importantly, to protect customers from unaffordable energy bills?”
“Although I recognise that many of them cannot be given definitive answers, I know that the Secretary of State’s officials will have modelled different scenarios. I ask, in the spirit of transparency and open debate, that the Secretary of State share as much as possible of his modelling and risk analysis for plugging the energy gap in the next few years with the House and with the Select Committee on Energy and Climate Change so that we can have a fully informed debate. The Secretary of State today stresses a UK commitment to 30% of electricity from renewables by 2020. His commitment is clear and we support him. However, has he assessed the mood of the coalition’s colleagues in the European Parliament, who often seem to be at sixes and sevens and are certainly not four-square behind his stance?”
“Now is the time for action, and I hope that the Secretary of State will deem 2011 to be the year of decision. He rightly pointed out in his statement that if we do not take prompt action, “The reserve margin of spare generating capacity will fall over the next decade and the risk of interruptions to our energy supplies will rise.” Questions remain about whether new nuclear can be built on time and at the pace required and whether carbon capture and storage can be proven on an industrial scale and commercially applied to all fossil fuels on time. We also need to know the details about the funding of projects 2, 3 and 4. We also need to know whether agreements on energy storage with Norway or others will be on time, again, and sufficient in scale. There are other questions, too.”
“The Secretary of State has dangled cheaper prices from 2030 in front of us today—jam tomorrow—but will he provide his modelling so we can be sure that the Government are doing everything they can to ensure that energy prices today are being tackled, too? We cannot allow increased energy costs to be an excuse for increased profit at a cost to our constituents. The Government must seize this opportunity and act now to give investors the certainty they need and to meet the necessary time scales. Today, the Government have confirmed that the green investment bank is still under review. The Secretary of State has assured us that the Government are committed to low-carbon growth, but the question is: can he do it on time? This is not the time for delay or dithering.”
“The issues that the Government must tackle are fourfold: security of supply, meeting renewable energy targets, finding the crucial investment for energy infrastructure—some £200 billion—and, as we heard in Question Time, keeping energy prices reasonable. It is crucial that the Government put in place the mechanisms to make new low-carbon investment attractive and they must bridge the looming energy gap without a rush for unabated fossil fuel generation. I am heartened by some of what the Secretary of State has said, but the Government must also provide energy security across a balanced and diverse energy portfolio and they must provide fairness and affordability for consumers. We face this big challenge together, but we must not allow the consumer to bear the whole burden.”
“I thank the right hon. Gentleman for early sight of his statement and for early notice that it would be made—ahead, even, of Government Back Benchers, for which I am grateful. Let me be clear at the outset that the Opposition believe that the programme is absolutely necessary to secure energy for the future, and we will support fair and sensible mechanisms for reform. We agree with the Secretary of State that this is a once-in-a-generation opportunity to get it right and we hope that we can work with the Government and that, for their part, they will take on board the Opposition’s comments as they consult.”
“We need flesh on the bones, and we need action between now and the next conference in South Africa.”
“Finally, we need to see leadership from Britain and Europe over the next 12 months, before countries meet again in South Africa. The Government must demonstrate leadership at home—here in the UK—and in Europe. We need the Government to commit to low-carbon growth and to show they can deliver before the opportunity has passed. Although we have had welcome announcements from the Government about implementing the green deal for householders, we do not know whether it will include a carbon reduction target. The right hon. Gentleman has also announced that he will go ahead with the green investment bank, but we do not know whether there will be enough money for it to do its job. We lack detail, therefore, yet we hear from businesses of the need for certainty, and households in fuel poverty need support and certainty too.”
“The Secretary of State was involved in discussions and conversations on Kyoto. Is he able to give the House a better sense of how those negotiations went, although they were not an outright success? The climate fund to assist developing nations is a welcome step, but we need assurances that funds will be in place. I welcome the Secretary of State’s aim to see rapid progress on the part of the transitional committee. Can he give us a timetable for that progress? We have agreements, but we need to make sure that actions are taken or else the agreements will not be a foundation for change. Will the Secretary of State also give us further details on how finance will be secured, because the developing countries need this life-saving finance and they and their citizens cannot wait?”
“Gentleman has already suggested that the European emission reduction target should be 30% by 2020, and he recently issued a statement with Germany and France pressing for such a reduction in carbon dioxide emissions. Last week, the Committee on Climate Change reported in support of that aim. We are delighted that Spain is now on board. Will the Secretary of State tell us whether that is the extent of European Union support? He talks of pressing for measures in the EU, but will he say what practical steps he and the Government are taking in Europe? It might be said that the Government whom he represents are not of one mind when it comes to European relations, and we and the country need to know which point of view dominates the agenda. Will there really be progress by February?”
“Friend the Member for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband) in Copenhagen last year, and we all hope that it will pave the way for more ambitious aims in South Africa next year. We welcome the establishment of a climate fund to help developing nations and commitments to take action on deforestation. We also welcome the acknowledgement of the gap between the promised emission cuts and the cuts that the science tell us are necessary. Does the Secretary of State believe that holding to an increase of below 2º is enough, given that scientists now say that an increase of between 2º and 4º is more likely? We have a long way to go, and, as the Secretary of State said, it is essential that the Government take a lead internationally. The right hon.”
“I thank the Secretary of State for his statement, and for early sight of it. International progress on climate change is of the utmost importance to us all. I am pleased that the Secretary of State has been able to attend the House in person today, so that we have a chance to question the Government on progress. We must acknowledge that the agreements made in Cancun are an important step in the right direction, and, on behalf of the Opposition, I join the right hon. Gentleman in congratulating the Mexican Government on creating an environment in which the nations of the world could agree a common statement. The statement of intent that has come out of Cancun builds on provisions made by my right hon.”
“Can he further explain what contact the Government have had or are planning to have with the professions concerned, particularly pathologists and coroners, to ensure that robust procedures are in place so that this could not happen again? This report does not stop the heartache for the families, but it lays out the facts, and I hope that that gives them some comfort.”
“I am sure that he will agree that any families who are concerned should have an easy route to information about their loved ones; perhaps he could explain how they can find out more. The Secretary of State rightly talks about the new rigorous regulatory system, but it is the Government’s intention to abolish the Human Tissue Authority and transfer its functions to other bodies. What guarantee can he give that such important functions will not be lost as a result of the Government’s proposed changes? The Secretary of State is clear that such acts would not be permissible today, as they were not then. It is therefore particularly important that procedures are in place to uncover any practices of this nature in future.”
“It is an important and salutary reminder to all of us in this House, and elsewhere, that we need to remain vigilant in our scrutiny of professional practice and of the work of scientists. Science is vital to the UK, and we have a worldwide reputation to protect. It is in all our interests to get it right. I have some questions for the Secretary of State. Is he able to reassure the public that the events outlined in the Redfern inquiry report are historical and are not taking place today? We have the 2004 Act; we now need to be vigilant about it. The inquiry looked into the issue of removal of organs from 76 people. Is the Secretary of State satisfied that that was the extent of the case?”
“The events in question took place some time ago, and it has been challenging to piece together the history. The issues are complex, and Michael Redfern has produced a report that not only explains what happens, but provides reassurance that such practices are no longer used. The events, let us remember, took place in a different era when there was much debate about the safety of the nuclear industry, and the GMB at the time campaigned hard for a compensation scheme for nuclear workers who had been exposed to excess radiation. Today, a compensation scheme is in place. The report is clear that the law at the time was in place to prevent the removal of human tissue without proper consent from those who had died. Unfortunately, that did not prevent these events from happening.”
“I thank the Secretary of State and his office for early sight of his statement on this very important matter. Our first sympathies must be for the families. They have lived through an ordeal and had to relive or, in some cases, discover what happened to their loved ones after death. It cannot have been easy, and their forbearance has been great. I very much welcome the Secretary of State’s heartfelt apology. I, like other Members, have had only a short time to look at the report, but it is clear that it is thorough, clearly written and a credit to the hard work of Michael Redfern QC and his team. My hon. Friend the Member for Copeland (Mr Reed) has ably represented many of the families over a long period, and today the families must come first.”
“It is a shame that the Secretary of State cannot be here today, but I appreciate that his private office let me know in good time. I suspect that, even stuck in an airport in Hong Kong, he must be finding it a challenge not to gloat about the settlement that his Department received from the Treasury. We have heard the Prime Minister talk about the “greenest Government ever” and the Secretary of State talk about a “third industrial revolution”. The Minister today has talked about the private sector playing a key role, and yet, as we have just heard, we have no detail about the green investment bank. Is it just a crowd-pleasing gimmick, designed for the Secretary of State to please his friends in Birmingham next September, or is it going to be something real?”
“But we still have a distinct lack of detail. We are very aware that “spring” in civil service language can extend for a long period. While the Secretary of State and his team are polishing their green halos—indeed, the Minister is wearing his green tie today—will they tell us whether the green investment bank will have any capital? We are already seeing signs that capital that could have gone into it is going straight to the Treasury. Will the green investment bank be profit making? Will it invest in proven technology or safe bets? The simple question is: when will we know what the green investment bank will be capable of doing and whether it will fuel the private sector investment in green technologies that the Minister has talked about today?”
“Moving from housekeeping to international issues, I note that next week there will be a debate on the Cancun climate change conference, thanks to the hon. Member for Chippenham (Duncan Hames). That debate is very welcome, but until we heard some snippets from the Minister today, it underlined the fact that there has been a deafening silence from the Government in the House about what they want to achieve. We all want a good outcome, and we recognise the challenges, as the Minister said, about legally binding international agreements. Will he tell the House clearly what the Government hope to achieve in the UK, and whether they are planning to make a statement in Government time?”
“I hope that you will take the matter up and find out whether Ministers in devolved Administrations were consulted on this important information being leaked.”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. As my hon. Friend the Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn) said, today the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change published a written statement dealing with significant issues for the future supply of energy, particularly as regards tidal technology and nuclear power, in the United Kingdom. I share the concern that it was not an oral statement; the House should have had the chance to question the Secretary of State. Mr Speaker, you have been a good champion of the House, and of Back Benchers in particular, when such information is leaked to the national newspapers. I was surprised to read in great detail about the written statement in the national and Welsh papers on Sunday.”
“Whatever her previous record, words are easy. Action may be harder, but action from the Minister is what we are after today.”
“We want a real commitment to action today, but all I have heard from the hon. Lady—perhaps she will expand on this during the debate—is the suggestion that the Government are looking to work with international partners to remove gender markers from passports entirely. That proposal could be subject to a huge debate, and I am not sure that we would want that to happen—I think that Government Back Benchers agree. The approach would seem to be a sledgehammer to crack a nut. It would also confuse a lot of people, but even if it was an answer that could be agreed as a way forward, such international negotiations would take a long time, meaning that the proposal is a long-grass solution. We are looking to see a timetable for action and a commitment to action. I once again remind the hon. Lady that she is now a Minister.”
“However, there is a vocal group in her Department who have been influential in shaping policy across Whitehall and beyond. We recognise that the problem is not easy to solve—either here and now on the Floor of the House or more generally—but a small but nevertheless important provision of the Identity Cards Act 2006 was introduced to bring about the existing benefit. We do not necessarily expect a detailed answer from the Minister today, but she has not reassured me, either through correspondence or in Committee, that serious action is under way in government to address the situation. The matter is not so much one for the equalities unit, which she indicated in her last letter was examining the situation, but one for the Identity and Passport Service, which deals with identity issues for the Government as a whole.”
“I echo the comments made by my hon. Friend the Member for Bolton West (Julie Hilling). In Committee and through subsequent correspondence, I have pressed the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, the hon. Member for Hornsey and Wood Green (Lynne Featherstone), on the consultation that she and her Department undertook when putting the Bill together. However, I have received no answer, so I hope she will tell the House the groups that she consulted, given that the issue did not even feature in the Government’s impact assessment. This House is a tolerant House, and I know that the hon. Lady is a relatively new Minister, but if a mistake has been made, I hope she will have the decency at least to acknowledge that in the House and to apologise to the people affected, who have very little voice.”
“I am amazed that the Minister tells us that she wrote on her blog about the issue, as though that is a formal Government process. I have asked her repeatedly what formal Government consultation took place and her answer is her personal blog. Is this the way the Government intend to continue?”
“Within government, there are statutory and other requirements for consultation, but the Minister has come to the Dispatch Box to explain that this Government do not take them seriously. They prefer party political routes, with all their imperfections, to what one might reasonably expect, which are proper Government routes.”
“I am puzzled that that proposal has come out of leftfield one might say—but perhaps with this coalition, out of rightfield—as a solution. It seems like a sledgehammer to crack a nut, and it is a very big proposal to suggest that “male” and “female” be removed from a document that 80% of the British public use. To return to an earlier point, however, the Minister’s ego is quite extraordinary. Her blog and no official consultation seem to be her answer to things, and I worry about the civil service. There are some excellent civil servants in her Department, as I well know, and they have to act on the basis of two political manifestos and a personal, political blog.”
“The Government make great play of fairness—they often point to their coalition agreement, which makes much of it—and, as we seem to be quoting manifestos today, each individual party spoke about fairness in its manifesto, so we ask that the proposal be considered. It would be a relatively straightforward transaction, and with another amendment we will probe the Minister on a further issue. If the Government are planning to destroy the data, they will have to handle the information and do something with it, so they might as well pass it over to the passport database.”
“In the process, we would lose the fingerprint, because it cannot be stored— [ Interruption. ] I am glad to see that the Minister is listening. It cannot be stored on the passport database— [ Interruption. ] I am being ironic: the Minister will, I hope, be listening in a moment. It cannot be stored, because the Government, in their desire to get rid of it so quickly— [ Interruption. ] In their reckless desire to get rid of it quickly, I repeat for the Minister, the Government do not plan to introduce passports with fingerprints. However, that credit would give some comfort to those who paid £30, and it would represent basic fairness.”
“There is still an opportunity for the Minister for Immigration to recognise that, in his haste to get rid of identity cards, which for him is a big ideological issue, he does not need also to be unfair to those who in good faith paid their £30. The new clause and amendments detail two proposals. There is no money resolution attached to the Bill, so we cannot press for a refund. However, we propose that the fee that people paid be added as a credit to the passport database. The data-matching would be relatively straightforward, given that everybody who holds an identity card, including myself, has, or has recently had, a passport. Of course, there are data protection rules, and we would have to gain permission from those individuals, but I would happily give permission for my data to be transferred.”
“I shall not rehearse all the arguments that were made in Committee, but the Opposition are concerned about the mean-spirited nature of the Bill. Some 14,000 people took up ID cards, most of which were paid for, and those individuals thought that the cards would be valid for 10 years. It was a simple transaction not just with a commercial body, but with Her Majesty’s Government and, indeed, the Identity and Passport Service, one of the most trusted public bodies in this country, as research shows. Yet if the Bill goes the way the Government wish and, similarly, through the Lords, one month after Royal Assent those individuals will lose the ability to use the card that they had thought would be valid for 10 years. We have tabled some new proposals and given the Government a choice about how to deal with the matter.”
“However, that would represent a choice for the individual who had paid their £30 to have the card.”
“If the hon. Gentleman had had the courtesy to listen, he would have heard me deal with that point at the beginning of my comments. We also suggest an alternative, so the Government have a choice. The Minister has two options in order to be fair to those members of the British public who bought a card in good faith. The alternative is to allow cards to continue for 10 years and, again, with the permission of the individual cardholder, for data to be migrated to the passport database, which is not a terribly difficult transaction, so that ID cards can continue as passports. We recognise that that is not a perfect solution, because with few cards already out there and, given all the points that we rehearsed in Committee about someone’s ability to recognise the document, there might still be issues.”
“Government has some degree of continuity and when an individual has bought something in good faith, there needs to be some recompense for them. We recognise, reluctantly, that both parties in this Government had a mandate to get rid of identity cards; as I said, it is one area of unanimity within the coalition. Therefore, whatever our position on that general issue, we will not press the matter to a vote. However, the issue of compensation is very important, and we will seek to divide the House on the new clause unless the Minister can give us some reassurances.”
“I believe that it can be done relatively cheaply, and that it is fair. This is being done with the ideologically driven haste of the Minister. We have debated this previously and I know that he is passionate about getting rid of ID cards, but basic fairness is involved. Frankly, those who bought in good faith from the trusted Identity and Passport Service have been diddled by this Government. If the Minister gets up and talks about what his manifesto said, we will be driven to despair. We discussed this in Committee. When somebody buys a passport or an identity card, or has any other transaction with Government, they will not necessarily take into account something that has been said in a political manifesto.”
“That is not what we are suggesting, as the hon. Gentleman would see if he read the new clause. As I said, we are suggesting that the information be migrated to the passport database. We recognise that this is a rare area of unity for both Government parties, which is perhaps why it is being rushed through. The Government clearly want to get rid of the national identity register. However, it would not be difficult to migrate data to the passport database, especially given that everybody who currently holds a card has recently held, or currently holds, a passport. Of the 11,000 people affected, many may choose not to take up migration of the card. If there were to be the option of a credit on their passport database, some may not choose to take that up either. However, it would give them the option.”
“I am interested to hear the Scottish National party’s position. In fact, people could not easily apply for ID cards in Scotland, and that is why very few did so. They were not formally launched there at the point at which the Government changed, but they would have been coming and I am sure that there are many people in Scotland who would have liked one. Leaving that aside, it would be interesting to know what the SNP’s position is on fingerprints in passports, which is something that Members from many parties in this House, both Government and Opposition, have indicated is very important, and something that my right hon. Friend the Member for Doncaster North has not ruled out.”
“Liberty is also in favour of removing ID cards for foreign nationals, or biometric identity documents, or whatever people wish to call them. Does the hon. Gentleman agree with Liberty? Is he aware that surveys revealed that the Identity and Passport Service is one of the most trusted public bodies in the country? That trust is being breached by the Government’s decision. All we are saying to the Government is, “Be fair to those who bought an ID card.” Frankly, the idea that everybody read all the manifestos, as some hon. Members are saying, rather overrates their importance, and suggests that hon. Members are not in touch with the many people who do not follow politics and daily read manifestos .”
“As is the case with the first issue of anything, when the first Mini rolled off the production line, it probably cost several million, if not billions of pounds, but for the last Mini, by definition, the cost per item was much lower because many thousand would have been produced. Identity cards had been issued for a few months at the time of the general election, but under Treasury rules they had to be paid for out of fees, just like passports, as the Minister knows. It ill behoves him to take that approach. I wish to divide the House on the new clauses. Question put, That the clause be read a Second time. The House proceeded to a Division.”