Gareth Thomas
MP for Harrow West · Labour (Co-op) · United Kingdom
“Local councils such as Harrow need to invest more in youth facilities that divert young people away from crime. Some of the CCTV projects in my constituency that Harrow council has turned down—in Wealdstone, south Harrow and central Harrow—should get funding.”
“I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Pendle and Clitheroe (Jonathan Hinder) on securing the debate and on the way in which he approached the subject. I join him and my hon.”
“I also want to suggest that the Metropolitan police does not get recognition across the whole of the UK for its hugely important work in tackling national and international crime, and that perhaps more recognition of that is required in the funding formula.”
“In particular, in Harrow, we recently saw enforcement teams contracted out to an organisation called Kingdom. The responsibility for that contract was with Harrow council. There was widespread criticism of the way some of the staff employed by Kingdom tried to levy fines on a number of young people in south Harrow, in my constituency.”
“One way we can further support the Metropolitan police is by allowing it to keep more of the proceeds from successful operations, such as recovering stolen funds hidden in bitcoin assets. I congratulate my hon.”
“Mayor of London Sadiq Khan has done a huge amount to try to redirect funding from other parts of his budget to minimise the impact of that cut.”
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“Its chair’s transformation plan was announced in November, with the aim of putting the company on a path towards financial stability and delivering a “new deal for postmasters”. The plan requires the company to make difficult decisions about, for example, the need to look seriously at efficiencies in its headquarters and the branch network to ensure that it is fit for purpose. Today the Post Office has announced that it would be moving to a fully franchised network as part of those plans. That will realise significant savings, potentially amounting to £100 million over the duration of the current Parliament. Before this announcement, many Members wrote to me expressing concerns about their local directly managed branches, and we have heard those concerns.”
“The scheme is due to be launched in the next month, and the Post Office will write to all of those potentially affected with further details, including information on how postmasters can apply. We will consider carefully the conditions and recommendations of Sir Wyn Williams’ inquiry when it is published. While tackling the awful legacy of the Horizon scandal, the Government are also determined to make the Post Office more sustainable for the future, and we remain committed to publishing a Green Paper to consider its long-term future. In particular, I look forward to hearing the visions and ideas of stakeholders, including key trade unions, sub-postmasters and others. It has been apparent for some time that the Post Office is heavily reliant on Government funding.”
“Postmasters will not have to pay a penny of income tax, capital gains tax, national insurance contributions, corporation tax or inheritance tax on any compensation that they receive through the new process. As we look to the future, we will also continue to address any concerns about the Post Office’s past behaviour. I am therefore pleased to be able to provide an update on the Government-funded Post Office process review scheme, which will provide redress for postmasters who lost out financially owing to issues connected with Post Office products, policies or processes. Those issues are unrelated to Horizon but are part of the company’s efforts to rebuild trust with its postmasters and ensure that past failings are fully addressed.”
“Later this month we will begin writing to the legal representatives of potentially eligible postmasters who are currently involved in the dispute resolution process, inviting them to transfer their claims to the new HSS appeals scheme. If postmasters do not have legal representatives, we will write to them directly. Shortly after that, we will open the scheme to all other eligible postmasters. As with the GLO scheme, my Department will aim to respond within 40 working days of the submission of a substantially complete appeal in at least 90% of cases. We will encourage postmasters entering the process to engage legal advisers, and we will meet their reasonable legal costs through a tariff that we have agreed with claimants’ lawyers.”
“Today we are publishing the guidance and principles for the HSS appeals, and by the end of this month we will begin to accept applications from eligible postmasters who are currently involved in the Post Office’s dispute resolution process. The document sets out the underlying rules that will govern the assessment of appeals, and also provides information on, for instance, the eligibility criteria to help postmasters and their legal representatives make their claims. We developed this in consultation with the Horizon compensation advisory board, claimants’ lawyers, and representatives of postmasters’ organisations.”
“Most recently, we announced that from 3 June my Department will take over responsibility for the overturned convictions scheme from the Post Office. We have also welcomed Fujitsu’s commitment to contribute to the Government’s compensation for the victims of the scandal. During a meeting between the Secretary of State and Fujitsu’s chief executive officer in March, an agreement was reached on beginning talks ahead of the conclusion of Sir Wyn Williams’ inquiry. The House will be aware that the Secretary of State announced the Government’s intention to establish an appeals mechanism for claimants who were unhappy with offers that they had received under the Post Office’s Horizon shortfall scheme.”
“We are working on our approach to redress for postmasters who fell victim to the flaws in the Capture system. Unlike the previous Government, we set out a clear forecast for compensation within the autumn Budget of £1.8 billion from 2024-25. As the House will know, the Government previously committed to provide the majority of group litigation order claimants with substantial redress by the end of March. I can confirm that, as promised, 76% of those who submitted claims for compensation have received substantial redress. All those who submitted a claim before Christmas have received an offer or, in one case, a substantial interim payment instead. We will also take further steps to increase the pace at which claimants’ challenges can be resolved fairly. Facilitated discussions will be reintroduced to the GLO scheme for this purpose.”
“With your permission, Madam Deputy Speaker, I wish to make a statement on the Post Office, Horizon redress and Post Office finances. We inherited a Post Office in crisis. It had a grim past, a poor commercial track record, unstable leadership and its record on compensation was widely perceived as legalistic, slow and adversarial. Since this Government came into office, the total amount of redress paid to victims of the Horizon scandal has increased by more than three and a half times. Between July last year and 31 March this year, more than 3,300 victims have received compensation for the first time. Approximately £892 million has now been paid to more than 6,200 claimants. We have also established a new compensation scheme, so that those postmasters who finally had their convictions overturned by Parliament last year get redress.”
“I have seen some previous examples of those requests, and I can well understand the frustration of sub-postmasters, their lawyers and campaigners. When we request further information, it is to make sure that we can offer an increased payment to sub-postmasters going forward. However, I recognise that there will be some scepticism because of the history around requests for information. We will continue to do everything we can to get payments out to people as quickly as possible, and we have taken further steps to work with the Post Office to identify victims who had not previously come forward. Some 6,000 new claimants have now come forward, and we are trying to process their cases as quickly as we can.”
“The hon. Gentleman said, quite rightly, that the full assessment of claims occasionally has problems. That is one of the reasons why I referred to the fact that we are bringing back facilitated discussions, particularly on the GLO scheme. Although there has been significant progress in settling two thirds of the GLO claims that have been put in, we think that those facilitated discussions will help to make it easier for fair compensation to be allocated in a timely way to those victims of the scandal. Where a case for interim payments is made to us, we always encourage our team to make such payments in order to try to ease the financial pressures, and therefore the trauma, that victims still experience. The hon. Gentleman will know that there were concerns in the past about the letters requesting further information.”
“He will be aware that a number of cases with the Criminal Cases Review Commission relate to Capture, and we think it is appropriate that the CCRC is allowed to continue to review those cases. As I outlined in my opening remarks, the Secretary of State recently met the global chief executive of Fujitsu during his visit to Japan. I have met the chief executive of Fujitsu in the UK, and I said to him that an interim payment would be a significant step in the right direction. The hon. Gentleman asked me about the Post Office’s accountants. He may be aware that the Financial Reporting Council is looking at this issue and has been talking to the Horizon compensation advisory board. It is an independent body, and I am sure that he and the House will recognise that it is right that we respect the right of that independent body to do its work.”
“I thank the hon. Gentleman for his comments, and I join him in commending the work of all those who have campaigned, and who continue to campaign, for the victims of this horrendous scandal. I pay tribute to the noble Lords Arbuthnot and Beamish. In a spirit of cross-partisanship, I pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman for his work in the past. I know that he worked extremely hard to try to move things forward, and I very much respect the job that he did. Let me attempt to do justice to the detailed questions that the hon. Gentleman asked. On Capture, we are actively working on a redress scheme. We have had a series of meetings with some of the sub-postmasters who were affected by the problems in the Capture software and their legal representatives.”
“I recognise the concern across the House. My hon. Friend has followed this issue for a long time, and I recognise his continuing interest. He will forgive me if I do not give a running commentary to the House on the negotiations that we will have with Fujitsu. We are obviously waiting for the conclusions of Sir Wyn Williams’ inquiry and his judgment about the level of responsibility that Fujitsu must accept. As I alluded to in my answer to the Opposition spokesman, an interim payment by Fujitsu would be a significant step forward.”
“I expect that, in the first instance, those franchised services will continue to operate in exactly the same place where they do at the moment, before decisions are taken about where they should be located in the slightly longer term. The hon. Lady asked me what guarantee there is that services will continue to be provided in that space. She will know that access criteria have already been published that commit the Government to provide 11,500 post offices. The decision on directly managed branches does not change those criteria, and the Post Office is committed to continuing to provide a service in those communities. I would also expect the Post Office to talk to local stakeholders, including Members of this House, about the continued operation of post office services in their communities.”
“As I set out in my statement, I have heard the concerns from across the House—they were particularly significant on the Labour Benches, but I recognise those from the Opposition side as well—about the impact of losing post office services in the communities where those directly managed parties are. That is why we have made it clear to the Post Office that franchised post office services have to remain in those communities. We expect the Post Office to work from the starting point of those services being what is called a mains franchise—a franchise that, as well as providing the more traditional post office services such as stamps and parcels, will also provide Government services such as passports and driving licences: the equivalent of what is available in those branches at the moment.”
“I set out the broad timescale in my statement, and I simply say to her again—shortly. We want to get this up and running as quickly as we can. The hon. Lady asked me whether new legislation would be required to implement the commitments on tax that I set out. No, it will not be required. On the issue of the duty of candour, I do not have anything to add to what my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House said. However, the hon. Lady’s question is an opportunity to underline that we expect a number of significant issues to arise from Sir Wyn Williams’s inquiry, and we as the Government—and, I am sure, the whole House—will want to reflect on the conclusions and recommendations that he comes up with. The hon. Lady mentioned the issues about the decision to franchise the remaining directly managed branches.”
“I am grateful to the hon. Lady. She is absolutely right to reflect the view of the whole House that there is still much more to do on compensation. We as the Government are very clear about that ourselves, and we are working at pace to try to step up even further the rate at which compensation payments are made. We think that, in just the first nine months of this Government, we have made significant progress, increasing by three and a half times the amount of compensation that has been paid out. But I completely accept that there is more to do. We think that the launch of the Horizon shortfall scheme appeals process will help to address a number of cases in the HSS where sub-postmasters are concerned about the offers they have had. The hon. Lady asked me when letters would be going out.”
“I know that my hon. Friend has always been a great champion of Salford. Like other Members, she has made it very clear to me how significant the post office is in her community. The vast majority of post office branches across the country are already franchised. Both main and local franchises are often open longer than directly managed branches. My hon. Friend asked what guarantees there are. As I have set out, we have made it clear to the Post Office that we want every directly managed branch to ensure that there is a main franchised operation in those communities. I recognise that there will be concern while that change takes place, but if she or any other Members have concerns about aspects of that transition as it moves forward in their constituencies, I will obviously be very happy to meet them to discuss those.”
“The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to want progress on Fujitsu, which is one of the reasons why I have made it clear to Fujitsu that an interim payment would be a very welcome and significant step forward. We have said that we think it is important that we hear the view of Sir Wyn Williams, who has been looking in detail at the responsibility of both Fujitsu and senior leaders in the Post Office during this scandal. We need to recognise that there is a process, but we are absolutely clear about our responsibility to move the negotiations forward.”
“On the question of their having a view and a say in the future of the Post Office, as I have made clear we are determined to publish a Green Paper, which will allow all those who are interested, including the CWU, to give us their vision of the future of the Post Office and view about the various questions about its future.”
“I know from the conversations I have had with my hon. Friend just how much she and her constituents value the post office in Cricklewood. As I have set out, our starting point is that a mains franchise offering the same services as currently enjoyed by the residents of Cricklewood will be provided. I hope her constituents will not see any significant disruption going forward, but I am very happy to have a conversation with her about that. I have had many conversations since coming into this role with the leadership of the Communication Workers Union, who have been very direct in their views about directly managed branches.”
“They are also doing more, through a postmaster panel, to bring in postmasters to understand the different processes used and to rebuild confidence in how Post Office management handles some of the bigger challenges that the company faces. I will happily consider any request or point of concern that the hon. Gentleman raises about Kendal. If he is not satisfied with progress in addressing those points, he is very welcome to get in contact with me further down the line.”
“The hon. Gentleman rightly underlines the significance of the Post Office, in particular in rural communities, and the challenge on occasion of finding sub-postmasters to run franchise post offices in those areas. I hope the uplift in postmaster remuneration that came just before Christmas will help to address that particular challenge. We have made clear to the Post Office leadership that a fundamental change in its culture is needed to place sub-postmasters at the heart of the operation going forward, which they accept. They have therefore set up a consultative council to ensure that sub-postmasters have direct input into the future direction of the Post Office.”
“I very much hope we will hear positive news on banking framework 4, which I hope will be a significant step forward in this regard. However, there is more that can be done in this space.”
“I commend my hon. Friend for his campaign. I recognise just how much the Chester-le-Street post office is valued by his constituents, as he has made clear to me a number of times in his representations. On the commercial future of the Post Office, it is absolutely true that postal services in this country—as indeed in a number of other countries—are facing significant pressures, and it is therefore imperative that Post Office management here in the UK look at what they can do to capitalise on new opportunities, particularly in terms of banking. The Post Office chairman and chief executive, Nigel Railton and Neil Brocklehurst, completely get this point, and we are actively talking to them about what more we can do.”
“The right hon. Gentleman will have to forgive me; I have been very focused on the efforts to increase compensation for the victims of the Horizon scandal, which has been the immediate challenge facing the Government in this policy area. It was something we heard loud and clear in opposition and we wanted to see progress on it. As I alluded to earlier, I suspect that the recommendations in Sir Wyn Williams’ inquiry will range quite widely, and if it touches on the particular issue that the right hon. Gentleman has raised, we will look at that extremely carefully. More generally, I suspect that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Justice will be interested in his question.”
“I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his continued representation of his constituents’ interests. He has made a number of very clear representations to me on the importance of the Gloucester post office, and I would be very happy to meet him to discuss its future as it transitions to a franchise-run operation. I should make it clear that the Post Office very much wants these franchises to be in key locations that are important for our communities, because that is obviously where the commercial income will come from, so it will be keen to meet with stakeholders such as Members of this House and other local stakeholders. If my hon. Friend would like to meet me to discuss this issue further, I would be very happy to do so.”
“The right hon. Gentleman makes a completely fair point that the Post Office suffers from a significant lack of trust, for all the reasons we know. I completely understand why he would want to press the particular point that his community should be involved in discussions about their post office services going forward. As I alluded to earlier, I would expect the Post Office to engage with local stakeholders, including the right hon. Gentleman as the local Member of Parliament. If at any point he is concerned about those discussions, he is very welcome to get in contact with me, and I will happily meet him.”
“However, given what has been said about the lack of trust in the Post Office, it is important that there are conversations with local stakeholders, including Members of this House. Moreover, given the points that she has made, I will make sure she is included in conversations about those two particular post offices.”
“I recognise the significance that the two post offices have to my hon. Friend’s constituents, and I recognise, too, that there will be concern in her constituency about the long-term future of those post offices. Although she is not the constituency Member of Parliament for the area, I will ensure that she is consulted about the future of those post offices. I recognise that, particularly in urban areas such as the ones that she and I represent, people outside the immediate constituency are reliant on those post offices. As I have said, a post office will want to ensure that, in the long term, it is located at the heart of the commercial activity in a community, because its future income depends on that.”
“I recognise from the meetings that I had with the hon. Member and also with a Bexhill Labour councillor how strong the feeling is about the threat to the post office in Bexhill. I have made it clear that the Post Office should replace the directly managed branch with a mains franchise. That is what I expect it to do. I also expect there to be a consultation with local stakeholders in Bexhill, including with him as the Member of Parliament. If he has concerns about that process, he is welcome to get in contact with me.”
“I welcome my hon. Friend’s question. I recognise that he has campaigned and made representations to me on this issue, as he has set out. As I have said to other Members today, he and other local stakeholders should expect to be involved in discussions about the future of post office services in Kensington and the transition to a franchise. We have the expectation—the Post Office has accepted this expectation—that it will be a mains service, as opposed to a local franchise, which provides Government services such as passports, driving licences and so on. I cannot give him an exact timeframe for when those discussions will begin, but the Post Office has already begun to have conversations with staff and potential franchisees. I would expect them to start getting in contact with Members of Parliament over the next few months.”
“The hon. Member will understand that I do not have the details about Tony’s case to hand, but he has asked me to review the way that the case has been handled. I am happy to do that. I am keen that complex cases are resolved fairly and as quickly as possible. I recognise that many sub-postmasters have been waiting a long time for compensation. We have made progress, but I recognise that there is more to do. I will happily look at Tony’s case after this and write to the hon. Member.”
“We are clear that we need to replace the Horizon system. As the whole House would expect, the Post Office is not taking any criminal action when there are shortfalls. There are processes for resolving issues around shortfalls in the Horizon system. Indeed, I referenced the postmaster panel and the way in which the Post Office management is working with sub-postmasters to help them to understand how shortfalls in the system are being dealt with going forward, so I hope that, slowly, we are taking the first steps to rebuild that trust.”
“I ask the hon. Lady to forgive me for not having the details of that particular case in front of me. As she has asked me to look again at that case, I will happily do so and write back to her.”
“I recognise that my hon. Friend has been campaigning hard to save Morley post office; he has certainly made clear representations to me about it. The starting point for discussions about the future of postal services, in Morley as elsewhere, is that post offices will be replaced by a main post office offering Government services as well as traditional post office services. If he has particular concerns about the way the transition is happening, he is welcome to get back in contact with me.”
“I absolutely pay tribute to the journalists and campaigners who exposed the Post Office scandal, and who continue to campaign for those who have not yet received redress. I had the privilege of meeting a number of sub-postmasters who were very badly affected by the scandal, and those conversations will stay with me for a very long time, and I suspect that the same is true for other Members who have had similar conversations. They are powerful, motivating conversations that will help this to get sorted out.”
“I recognise the point that my hon. Friend makes about Edinburgh. He will remember conversations we have had about the future of the post office, in which he made very clear to me the significance of a continued post office service for that community. As I say, we will make sure that conversations take place between local stakeholders, including him as the constituency representative in this House and his Scottish Parliament colleagues representing his community. Colleagues in Wales such as my hon. Friend the Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Aberdare (Gerald Jones) have made similar representations to me, and are also very concerned to make sure that they have conversations about the location of their post offices.”
“My hon. Friend makes a very good point about the number of bank branch closures. Over 9,500 bank branches closed under the Conservatives, who did next to nothing to ensure that they were replaced by any sort of alternative service. The post office is often the last opportunity for people to access banking services on many high streets. That is one of the reasons why we remain committed to having 11,500 post offices, and to the access criteria, which will help ensure that every community in the UK, including the people served by the Cosham post office, has access to post office services. I will of course continue to meet my hon. Friend, if that is what she requires.”
“My hon. Friend has pushed me repeatedly on the future of the Leighton Buzzard post office. We are very clear that we want post offices to be located on or very close to high streets, so that they can best serve local people. I can give the commitment that my hon. Friend will be consulted by the Post Office and other stakeholders in the Leighton Buzzard community about how it will operate going forward.”
“My hon. Friend made clear to me the significance of the King’s Road post office to his constituents, and I am pleased that there will continue to be a post office service there. I have experience of a directly managed post office closing and a franchise opening up—in this case, in a WHSmith—and afterwards the service was open for longer. I hope his constituents enjoy the same experience. If he has particular concerns about the way services are to be delivered, I will happily meet him again.”
“I know from conversations I have had with my hon. Friend the significance of the post office to his community. I very much hope that his experience, the experience of his community, and that of local stakeholders such as the councillor he has been working with, will be positive when the Post Office sits down with him and talks through the transition. If he has concerns about how those conversations are going, I remain happy to meet him to discuss them.”
“Businesses in rural areas offer significant potential for growth and are central to our economy. We are working across Government to unlock the full potential of rural businesses as part of the Government’s growth mission. We are committed to launching a business growth service inspired by the US Small Business Administration, which will operate in partnership with devolved Governments and the growth hub network in England to make it easier to access support from Government for all businesses.”
“I apologise to the hon. Gentleman, as I cannot fulfil his dreams right now. However, I am happy to meet him to talk about that issue. I recognise that there is considerable interest in that question from the hospitality industry, so I am happy to meet to hear, in a bit more detail, the particular concerns expressed to him.”
“I say gently to the hon. Lady that the difficult decisions that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor had to take in the Budget were, interestingly, particularly well explained by her former colleague Kwasi Kwarteng, who made it clear that he thought they had to be taken because of the mistakes that he and the Conservative party had made when they were in government.”
“Working across Government, we are determined to revitalise our high streets and support the businesses on them. We are working with industry to create a fairer business rates system that protects the high street and supports investment. We have introduced the Crime and Policing Bill, which will give better protection for businesses and retail workers against assault and theft. Our forthcoming small business strategy will set out our plan for further support for small businesses on the high street and beyond.”
“I am grateful for my hon. Friend for raising the case of the Patels. I am keen that any sub-postmaster who was a victim of the Horizon scandal gets access to the compensation they rightly deserve as quickly as possible. She will understand that I cannot comment on individual cases, but if she wants to write to me about the specific case, I would be happy to look into it further and to discuss it with her.”
“I note in passing that 10,000 pubs closed their doors under the Conservative Government, so I do not think the pub industry is looking to the hon. Gentleman’s party for guidance going forward. On the specifics he asked about, he will be aware of our plan for business rates reform, which will help and make a significant difference to many pubs. On the so-called “banter ban”, I gently suggest that he should not believe everything that he reads in the newspapers.”
“I will give careful consideration to my hon. Friend’s very generous offer. In answer to the hon. Member for Bromsgrove (Bradley Thomas) I mentioned business rates reform, which could make a significant difference for many businesses in the night-time economy. Another crucial issue that we want to tackle is the rising crime and antisocial behaviour on our high streets. As she will know, the Crime and Policing Bill, which is beginning its journey through Parliament, will make a significant difference in that regard.”
“I say gently to the right hon. Gentleman and his Conservative colleagues that we had to take the difficult decisions in the Budget to increase employer national insurance contributions because of the mess that their party left the country in. The shadow Secretary of State for Business and Trade, the hon. Member for Arundel and South Downs (Andrew Griffith), helped to write the Liz Truss Budget that did so much damage to our country—we are trying to sort out the mess. The shadow Secretary of State still has not apologised for his part in that fiasco. He should take the opportunity to do so during these questions.”