Dan Norris
MP for North East Somerset and Hanham · Independent · United Kingdom
“I should declare an interest as chair of the League Against Cruel Sports. Drag hunting was invented 200 years ago. It is a peaceful activity. Trail hunting is not. It is designed to get around the current legislation. Why does my hon. Friend think that centuries of tradition are being ignored by the pro-hunting fraternity?”
“The Nolan principles also apply to officers working in the public sector. I am a regional mayor, as well as a Member. I am aware that a regional mayor in the east of England is currently talking with a chief constable about officers under the previous mayor making decisions that should have been made by politicians—in other words, the nor…”
“Member has said so far, but does he think there should there be a special circumstance or a modification to the rules to allow those officers, who keep moving around and carry on working in local government, to be held to account?”
““Vengeance Most Fowl” is not just what the public inflicted on the Conservative party at the general election. It is also the name of the Aardman Animations Wallace and Gromit film coming out soon, which will be shown on the BBC on Christmas day and on Netflix around the world.”
“What will the Government do to assist with training for the fishing fleets, not least in landlocked areas? In the west of England, we are very keen to promote training for things that are not necessarily associated only with our area.”
“I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this important debate. Could she comment on the use of artificial intelligence to create child sexual abuse materials? That is a key issue now.”
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Every one of 190 lines we hold for Dan Norris, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 1 of 4.
“I should declare an interest as chair of the League Against Cruel Sports. Drag hunting was invented 200 years ago. It is a peaceful activity. Trail hunting is not. It is designed to get around the current legislation. Why does my hon. Friend think that centuries of tradition are being ignored by the pro-hunting fraternity?”
“Member has said so far, but does he think there should there be a special circumstance or a modification to the rules to allow those officers, who keep moving around and carry on working in local government, to be held to account? I also ask the Minister what the Government will do to make sure, where questionable things have happened, that the local authorities to which those interim officers go are alerted about that. Those local authorities should know that irregularities have taken place.”
“The Nolan principles also apply to officers working in the public sector. I am a regional mayor, as well as a Member. I am aware that a regional mayor in the east of England is currently talking with a chief constable about officers under the previous mayor making decisions that should have been made by politicians—in other words, the normal rules and policies seemingly being circumvented. It troubles me that the interim officers who work for local authorities or regional authorities move on quite quickly. They do not stay very long, and if something questionable is subsequently found, they are not bound to take part in any inquiry. That means that the Nolan principles can be completely circumvented; it drives a coach and horses through the good principles. I agree with everything that the hon.”
“I cannot believe what I am hearing. I am a four-time Member of Parliament for a semi-rural seat, having first been elected in 1997. The hon. Member is just talking nonsense. I have never heard anything like it.”
“What will the Government do to assist with training for the fishing fleets, not least in landlocked areas? In the west of England, we are very keen to promote training for things that are not necessarily associated only with our area. Are the Government having any discussions with metro mayors and others with large budgets for training and skills?”
““Vengeance Most Fowl” is not just what the public inflicted on the Conservative party at the general election. It is also the name of the Aardman Animations Wallace and Gromit film coming out soon, which will be shown on the BBC on Christmas day and on Netflix around the world. What are the Secretary of State and her wonderful team doing to promote animation not just across the west of England and in my constituency, but across the UK, so that it can get to even better and greater heights in the future?”
“Many social workers and police officers have kind hearts and great practice. How will the Government reach out to encourage their best practice while at the same time dealing with the bad practice?”
“I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this important debate. Could she comment on the use of artificial intelligence to create child sexual abuse materials? That is a key issue now. Many years ago, I trained with the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children as a child protection officer, and what I learned back then is that we have to get ahead of all the technologies in order to deal with the challenges effectively. Does she have any thoughts on that point? She may be coming to it in her own remarks.”
“Does my hon. Friend share my dismay that the Opposition Benches are empty, although this is such an important issue for rural communities such as the one I represent, where the geography makes social isolation a big issue? Breakfast clubs are very important in dealing with that isolation, and I am amazed that there are not more, or indeed any, Members on the Opposition Benches.”
“The Campaign for National Parks, Friends of the Peak District, the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds and the Wildlife Trusts have all benefited—significantly in the case of the RSPB and the Wildlife Trusts—from ALSF project funding, and were therefore active contributors to the fund’s outputs. The dedication and engagement of all those bodies, and indeed many others, in working with us on those issues is clearly apparent, and I applaud the work that they have done. The fund contributes in a small but very effective and important way to the objectives of a number of Departments and their agencies.”
“The proposal would take a disproportionate amount of the funding available to the council and create a longer-term maintenance bill that has no obvious funder. Many key stakeholders have an interest in the ALSF. They range from the aggregates industry itself—which is understandably interested in getting some credit, given the contribution it makes to general taxation via the levy—to the waste management and processing sector, which is involved under the resource use theme by helping to reduce the need for virgin aggregates, and a vast range of non-governmental organisations, including national and local nature conservation bodies, and local archaeological and geological bodies.”
“The fund’s delivery partners develop the detailed criteria to determine, in a transparent way, how they select specific projects. In the case of local authorities, a share of the fund is distributed in the form of what is called an area based grant, through the local area agreement, to be spent according to locally set priorities. My hon. Friend is supporting a request from Misson parish council for some 2 km of new roadside footpath to be provided between the villages of Misson and Newington. However, through correspondence with Misson, Nottinghamshire county council has explained that the proposal does not fit with the criteria that it applies—criteria agreed with DEFRA—in using the funds that it disburses.”
“Another element is the work that British Waterways has done to enable transport of aggregates by the waterways around east London. Finally, there is the communities theme. This is work done by Action for Communities in Rural England and local authorities to fund projects in communities affected by extraction. Work ranges from improvements to community buildings to access to local services, and from the provision of play facilities to landscape improvements. To give an example from Nottinghamshire, a listed windmill at North Leverton that has been in operation for 200 years was in disrepair and under threat. An ALSF grant provided £16,000 towards work costing £32,000 that was needed to enable the repair and refurbishment of the windmill. The work allowed the mill to keep grinding, and to remain open to the public and for school visits.”
“This involves increasing capacity for managing marine dredging and has included mapping most of the major extraction areas so that we have a better understanding of the environmental assets that need protecting. The third theme is resource use. This is work that the Waste and Resources Action Programme—often referred to as WRAP—and the Environment Agency do to ensure increased recycling of construction and demolition waste, and the sustainable use of materials to reduce the need for extraction in the first place. The fourth theme is transport. This comprises work that the Department for Transport does to train lorry drivers to drive in a more safe and fuel-efficient way, and to increase capacity to transport aggregates by rail and water rather than road.”
“Based on those responses, we decided that the most effective way to achieve the fund’s aim “to reduce the environmental footprint of aggregates production and deliver benefits in areas of extraction” was to organise work around five themes, and I should like to say something about them now. The first theme is the quarries theme. This includes Carbon Trust work with quarrying companies to reduce carbon emissions; Natural England work to enhance landscape and biodiversity around quarries; and English Heritage work to manage archaeology and other historic assets around quarries. It also involves working with the Mineral Industry Research Organisation to improve capacity for managing the environment in the longer term. The second theme is the marine theme.”
“When the ALSF was introduced in April 2002, its overarching purpose was to complement the objectives of the levy that applies to the extraction of aggregates in this country, and to deliver environmental and social benefits to areas subject to the environmental costs of aggregates extraction. Since its introduction, the fund has been administered by the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and delivered through a total of 28 delivery partners. Over the eight years since its inception, the fund has helped around 3,000 projects which have shared more than £169 million. A full public consultation was undertaken on how best to target funding for the current 2008 to 2011 spending review period.”
“I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann) on securing this debate on an area of my Department’s work that is not widely known but in which I genuinely think we might take some pride. I had the great pleasure only a couple of weeks ago to open a conference adjacent to the Olympic site in Stratford to showcase the work of the aggregates levy sustainability fund. I do not think that anyone who was present on the day could fail to be impressed by the sheer diversity of the projects that have been funded. However, it cannot fund everything, and sometimes there are tough choices to be made by our delivery partners about how to use the funds allocated to them to pursue the broad themes that we have agreed for the fund.”
“Friend that, should the Department be in a position to continue the fund beyond 2010-11, I have asked my officials to consider the option of targeting the communities element so that moneys for local communities reach those most affected by aggregates extraction. I hope he finds some comfort in those words. Once again, I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing the debate and on his usual hard work on behalf of his constituents. I hope that I have clarified the Government’s position for him. Question put and agreed to.”
“I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. DEFRA is acutely aware that some stakeholders and communities are concerned about how money from the fund is allocated. That is certainly true, but it did not emerge as a major concern in the 2008 consultation, when we consulted widely on the future design of the scheme. Most responses gave strong support for the way the fund currently operates, although I accept that things may have changed and that that may not be correct now. Budgets for the coming financial year have already been committed to local authorities and to ACRE. Future spending plans beyond that are uncertain, but I can say to my hon.”
“Local authorities are best placed to make decisions on waste management. We strongly encourage recycling through a range of measures, from targeted funding to help to set up recycling and composting facilities, to the landfill tax and the landfill allowance trading scheme. Direct support is also provided to local authorities through the Waste and Resources Action Programme.”
“I fully appreciate that my hon. Friend is concerned that his constituents have great concerns about the issue. Indeed, I have been reading about it in the Sheffield Star , in which there have been some strong editorials. However, at the end of the day, it is a matter for local authorities to decide how they manage waste, although we would obviously encourage them to listen carefully to the communities that they serve, to ensure that they take into account their specific needs.”
“The truth is that we are investing significantly in anaerobic digestion. We are very keen on it: it is an important technology, which we should be using much more effectively than we have done historically. I accept completely that other countries are ahead of us at the moment, but we are learning from their experience, so that we are not reinventing the wheel. I am confident that we will make significant progress through a range of incentives that we have created for that important process.”
“I am not sure that I would accept my hon. Friend’s analysis of the situation. In fact, we have a good record on recycling. It has quadrupled in the past 10 years. I accept his point about crowding out, in the sense that we would not want to encourage anything to do with landfill or incineration if there are other options, but reducing, re-using and recycling are essential, and that is the thrust of everything that we say and do.”
“Disposal of fallen stock by means of anaerobic digestion is not permitted under the EU Animal By-products Regulation 1774/2002. This is because of the animal and public health risk associated with such means of disposal.”
“This is a new feed-in tariff, but capital allowances will deal with the problem that the hon. Gentleman raises. May I take this opportunity, Mr. Speaker, to announce that today our implementation plan for anaerobic digestion will be published? The plan sets out how we will work with partners in the public and private sector to accelerate the uptake of anaerobic digestion in England. This will include things such as feed-in tariffs, anaerobic digestion programmes and other such elements.”
“Rural economies are as diverse and, on average, as strong as their urban counterparts. All parts of Government are committed to supporting rural economies through mainstream departmental programmes. Those include £3.9 billion-worth of support to businesses and communities, from 2007 to 2013, from the rural development programme for England, as well as maintaining rural post offices through a £150 million annual network grant and providing £2.6 million in European recovery programme support for rural community broadband.”
“The rural advocate, who was, of course, appointed by the Prime Minister, was absolutely right to point out those concerns. I, too, represent a rural constituency, and it is clear to me that young people are being forced to move out because there is a lack of affordable homes in rural communities. Local authorities have to work with Government and other people within rural communities to provide that housing, but that simply is not happening.”
“It is interesting that despite the appearance that gulls are thriving in urban areas, UK breeding populations of herring gulls have declined by 69 per cent. since 1969 and winter populations have declined by more than 50 per cent. in the past 25 years. As a result, the herring gull is listed as a biodiversity action plan priority species and in the latest British Trust for Ornithology report, it meets the qualifying criteria for red listing as a bird of conservation concern. The great black-backed gull is a scarce breeding species in England with a breeding population of fewer than 1,500 pairs. With wintering populations declining, it meets the qualifying criteria for amber listing as a bird of conservation concern. Although I understand my hon. Friend’s point, there is a decline in some gull species.”
“I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester (Mr. Dhanda) on securing this debate. As Minister with responsibility for rural affairs, I welcome this opportunity to discuss the impact of urban gull populations on business. This is not a joke, but a serious issue. The impacts that he describes exist and they can be distressing and concerning for those who are affected. I recognise that gulls can be problematic when found in high density in urban areas, such as in Gloucester, Bristol, Bath, Taunton and Cardiff. This is a widespread problem. I also recognise that measures need to be taken to mitigate such problems in an appropriate and proportionate manner. We must have regard to the conservation status of gulls because some species are protected.”
“Those methods have had some success in urban areas, including, I believe, in Gloucester. As my hon. Friend mentioned, my officials in DEFRA’s Bristol office recently met officials from local authorities in the south-west, including Gloucester, to discuss the issue. Natural England also attended that meeting. I hope that experiences can continue to be shared and best practice developed to address the problems sometimes caused by urban gulls. If there are lessons to be learned—no doubt there will be some—about alternative techniques that are successful, I encourage local authorities to share that information between them. However, we must not rely on a licensing approach to control gull populations that will provide only a temporary solution to the problem.”
“I stress that, although there has been a reduction in the available general licences, it is still none the less possible to apply for an individual licence to control those species where they are causing problems. Natural England has struck a sensible and proportionate balance between protecting species and recognising the issues that can arise in areas where species may be over-abundant. However, occasionally it is clear that licensed controls will be necessary. For example, in the breeding season from April to August, removing eggs under licence and replacing them with dummy eggs can reduce urban gull populations if deployed over the longer term and, in the short term, that can reduce the likelihood of attacks from aggressive gulls. My hon. Friend rightly highlighted that in his opening remarks.”
“For that reason, in January this year, following consultation, Natural England amended the relevant general licences and removed the herring gull from almost all general licences. However, it has continued to allow the destruction of nests and eggs of herring gulls to preserve public health and safety. Lesser black-backed gulls may still be controlled for a number of reasons, including to prevent serious damage to livestock and crops and the spread of disease, or for air safety reasons. That reflects the need to mitigate the problems that the herring and lesser black-backed gulls can cause in certain situations and to provide a licensing regime that is not over-burdensome. For great black-backed gulls, a general licence is now available only for the purpose of preserving air safety.”
“I completely share my hon. Friend’s concern for animal welfare. We are not advocating something that is cruel and unkind, but there may be situations in which, as a last resort, it might be necessary to take other lines of action. I stress that the licensed control system should be considered only if earlier attempts to manage problems have been shown to be ineffective. General licences that are used for activities that carry a low risk for the conservation or welfare of the protected species can be issued. Personal licences may also be issued for certain other controlled activities. The licensing authority—Natural England—must make sure that the licences it issues are appropriate and take account of the risk of the activities licensed and the conservation status of the species concerned.”
“Friend referred to that in Gloucester—and installing netting or metal spikes on buildings to discourage roosting and nesting. Although I accept that such measures are not the whole answer, they are a significant part of the solution. It is only by eliminating the things that gulls find so attractive in our towns and cities that we can hope to find a longer-term solution. The reality is that gulls live for a long time—many can live as long as 20 years—and they are not unintelligent animals, so they learn and modify their behaviour when we put up plastic owls or whatever it might be. Gulls are able to realise what is genuinely a threat to their way of life and what they can ignore. In addition to controlling the availability of food and preventing roosting, I understand that licensed control methods have been effective.”
“If it can be denied, the problem may be resolved without recourse to other measures. I urge all local authorities and businesses to help address this problem by avoiding the spillage of foodstuffs, keeping food storage areas secure and bird- proof—that is easily said, but it is what needs to be done—making sure that disposal and waste facilities are kept clean and tidy, and limiting or preventing the deliberate feeding of birds by the public, which still takes place in many areas. I have heard that local authorities in Devon and Cornwall, for example, have had good results by using hessian sacks for rubbish disposal, which deters gulls from accessing the food. Obviously, gulls can peck through plastic bags more easily than hessian ones. Natural England can provide advice on other deterrents, such as proofing buildings—my hon.”
“Action may be taken if Natural England grants a licence for purposes such as preventing the spread of disease, preserving air safety, which my hon. Friend mentioned, conserving wild birds and preserving public health and safety. A build-up of gull populations to problem levels is usually the result of the presence of readily accessible food and the availability of suitable habitats for roosting or breeding. Those are the two key components. There is often food in excess of what gulls would find in the wild and places for them to live. Although licensed control of bird populations can provide temporary relief, efforts must be maintained to remove the food and the access to the habitat that attracts them. Access to food is the single most important factor in boosting gull populations.”
“I would be happy to receive anything my hon. Friend wishes to send. I spoke to the hon. Member for Bath (Mr. Foster) briefly yesterday to say that this debate was taking place and receive his input. Unfortunately, he cannot be here today. As a member state of the European Union, the UK has an obligation to conserve wild bird populations. As my hon. Friend will be aware, that is fulfilled through the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981, which protects all wild birds. However, as I said, I recognise his concerns about gulls in Gloucester in the Bristol road area and the city centre. In specific circumstances, the 1981 Act allows people to apply for a licence from Natural England to take action to control bird species where they cause difficulties and there are no other satisfactory solutions.”
“That matter needs proper consideration and I thank him for raising it with me. As I was saying, lessons need to be learned about alternative techniques and we need to encourage local authorities to share best practice when they find it works in their areas. The issue requires local authorities to work collaboratively and over a sustained period. That can be helped greatly by limiting the sources of food and making adjustments to buildings, so that gulls do not find such a warm welcome in cities such as Gloucester, as well as other cities and areas across the country. I thank my hon. Friend for initiating this important debate.”
“I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. I can certainly say to him that, in general terms, we do not feel that additional research is necessary. We feel that we know quite a lot about the subject. That is certainly sufficient to highlight the two key areas that I pointed out in my earlier remarks: excess food being available to gulls, and places to live, roost and so on. However, his point about laser torches is interesting. I will talk to my officials about that, because it is something I would like to explore further. Any information that he can provide about that would be useful. The only obvious hazard with laser torches is that they may affect aircraft. He will be aware that there have been well-documented cases of people deliberately trying to distract pilots using powerful laser instruments.”
“I hear clearly what my hon. Friend says, but my officials feel that we have a lot of information about the nature of gull behaviour. We still keep coming back to the factors of food source and places to roost. I do not know enough about the particular instance he cited to say whether that is applicable. If he could drop me a note, I will certainly look at the matter and talk to my officials. I will also ask them to consider the laser torch idea that he proposes, because that sounds as if it has some merit and should be given due consideration.”
“The Government’s priority is to reduce the amount of waste we produce. Landfilling, of which landraising is a form, should always be the last resort. The Government are reducing our reliance on landfill through the landfill tax, increasing recycling and converting waste into energy. We will shortly be consulting on further restrictions on the landfilling of certain biodegradable and recyclable wastes.”
“If I did not know better, I would think that a general election is imminent. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will take part in our consultation to ensure that we produce as little waste as possible that needs to go into landfill. The truth is that we need to reduce, recycle and reuse at every possible opportunity, and allowing waste to go into landfill is not a good thing. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I both went to Sussex university, so we are very familiar with the beauty of the area, and we recognise people’s anger, but it is a local planning issue, plus a safety issue for the Environment Agency.”
“I cannot disagree with the hon. Gentleman, and I hope that he will take part in our consultation. It is an important consultation that seeks to achieve the objectives that he has just outlined, so I hope that he will play a full part in it.”
“The DEFRA-funded Waste and Resources Action Programme—known as WRAP—worked with 260 local authorities on recycling, food waste collection and waste prevention projects in the past year and is awarding £3.3 million in funding to authorities to expand food waste collection. Local authority efforts have collectively boosted national recycling rates to over 37 per cent., and we are now working via WRAP to enhance collection, sorting, reprocessing and end markets for mixed plastics recycling.”
“This really is a matter for local authorities. The recycling rate in the hon. Gentleman’s unitary authority, Torbay, is actually higher than he suggested, but it is still about 10 per cent. behind the average for local authorities in the west country. He certainly needs to talk to the local authority and ensure that it is getting the message that it needs to get on with this. It recycles five different forms of waste, which is to be encouraged—we suggest a minimum of two, but we want local authorities to go up to five—but it is clearly not doing as well as the best, and I suggest that he takes that up with the authority, as this is a local matter.”
“I have not had a meeting with the NFU directly—such discussions would happen through the Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for Poplar and Canning Town (Jim Fitzpatrick)—but I am aware of those concerns. Anaerobic digestion is an important issue. We want to minimise the amount of waste that is created in the first place, as well as encouraging reuse and recycling. We also want to create energy from waste, so that it can make a productive difference rather than just going into landfill.”
“I met the hon. Gentleman earlier this week to discuss his concerns about the proposals for an incinerator in his constituency. He knows that I see that as the last option, with the possible exception of landfill. Local authorities certainly need to explore every other option before they turn to that one.”
“I am always happy to meet those who are worried about this issue. They are right to have concerns, and we will certainly continue to consult thoroughly on this. However, figures released only this morning show that recycling has gone up to 38.3 per cent., so we are well on the way to meeting our 40 per cent. target for this year. That is encouraging, but creating better quality waste makes it more valuable, and that should be an incentive for local authorities and others to work harder.”
“There is no centrally held record of anaerobic digestion plants. As for facilities where a permit is required under European Union waste legislation, the Environment Agency has confirmed that to date there are 11 permitted anaerobic digestion facilities, two permit applications in process for facilities, and 51 proposed anaerobic digestion sites in the permit pre-application stage.”
“I thank the hon. Gentleman for his kind comments. We rate anaerobic digestion highly, which is why we invest such a huge sum in it. We have invested £10 million in the anaerobic digestion demonstration programme, and have also convened an anaerobic digestion task group to make recommendations. We are considering those recommendations as we develop the anaerobic digestion implementation plan, which we aim to publish shortly. I hope that the hon. Gentleman recognises our commitment to anaerobic digestion. As for tariffs, I think that they provide a good incentive. We pay careful attention to the way in which they work in practice, and we will review their operation, but we feel that we have pitched the measures we have taken at the right place and the right time.”