Dan Norris
MP for North East Somerset and Hanham · Independent · United Kingdom
“I should declare an interest as chair of the League Against Cruel Sports. Drag hunting was invented 200 years ago. It is a peaceful activity. Trail hunting is not. It is designed to get around the current legislation. Why does my hon. Friend think that centuries of tradition are being ignored by the pro-hunting fraternity?”
“The Nolan principles also apply to officers working in the public sector. I am a regional mayor, as well as a Member. I am aware that a regional mayor in the east of England is currently talking with a chief constable about officers under the previous mayor making decisions that should have been made by politicians—in other words, the nor…”
“Member has said so far, but does he think there should there be a special circumstance or a modification to the rules to allow those officers, who keep moving around and carry on working in local government, to be held to account?”
““Vengeance Most Fowl” is not just what the public inflicted on the Conservative party at the general election. It is also the name of the Aardman Animations Wallace and Gromit film coming out soon, which will be shown on the BBC on Christmas day and on Netflix around the world.”
“What will the Government do to assist with training for the fishing fleets, not least in landlocked areas? In the west of England, we are very keen to promote training for things that are not necessarily associated only with our area.”
“I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this important debate. Could she comment on the use of artificial intelligence to create child sexual abuse materials? That is a key issue now.”
The complete record
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“I hope that he will come and see me to talk a bit further about that. The hon. Gentleman also mentioned Jobcentre Plus, and a modernised service is needed to reach those who cannot get across such large geographic areas. Although I appreciate that it is sometimes difficult for older people, in particular—I was moved to hear about his grandmother’s situation—the truth is that telephones are often very helpful in rural communities in making first contact and in responding to the difficulties that are raised. I hope he will appreciate that, in the end, geography is a huge challenge and we cannot always cover or compensate for that difficulty. With an intelligent application of technology, we can perhaps make a significant difference, and I hope that we can talk about that when he comes to see me. The hon.”
“Obviously, the Government would like any assessment to be based primarily on what would be in consumers’ best interests—we must never forget that they are the important individuals in this matter—but we cannot comment until the issues have formally come back to Government. I cannot risk prejudicing the consultation, but I thank the hon. Gentleman for his contribution. The hon. Member for South-West Norfolk (Christopher Fraser) made some interesting points, and I invite him to come and see me to talk a little more about them. I certainly share some of his concerns, not least those to do with his having a very large constituency. I think he said that his constituency covered 1,200 square miles, which is very large. That is four times the size of my constituency, which is considered large in my area.”
“The Competition Commission is now consulting publicly on draft undertakings to establish an ombudsman to arbitrate in disputes between retailers and suppliers, and to investigate complaints under the new grocery supply code of practice. The deadline for those responses was 28 May. If retailers do not sign up to the undertakings, the Competition Commission will recommend to the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills that it take steps to establish the ombudsman instead. In that eventuality, DEFRA will be one of a number of Departments invited to comment. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will be pleased to hear that.”
“I will be involved in a series of meetings in the coming days and weeks to look specifically at the issues that have been raised. It is difficult to provide any further information at this point, because the situation is very fluid. It is hard to comment now other than to say that it is a tough challenge, but the Government will rise to it and find a way forward. I agree with those hon. Members who say that the problem has arisen is not because the organisation is a co-operative, but because of other factors. The hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Tim Farron) raised concerns about milk prices, which my colleagues and I share. The hon. Gentleman might be interested to know what my officials have been able to tell me so far.”
“I thank the hon. Gentleman for that helpful intervention. It is up to hon. Members to decide whether they want to contribute to the debate and, having heard some of the contributions from the Conservatives, I can see why my hon. Friends might have been dumbfounded and stuck in their seats. I will leave it at that. The hon. Member for Hexham (Mr. Atkinson) asked about milk supplies, especially with regard to the problems with Dairy Farmers of Britain. That is a serious problem, and the Government are greatly concerned about it, especially its impact in the north-east—the area that the hon. Gentleman represents. I do not think I can add much more to what my hon. Friend the Minister of State has said, but I hope that the hon. Gentleman will be reassured that the Government are taking this seriously.”
“I shall simply close by saying that, if the Opposition feel that extra resources are what is needed, it is very hard to understand how they can advocate cuts of 10 per cent. across the board and think that that will deal with the difficulties faced by people in rural communities or elsewhere in the UK. Question put (Standing Order No. 31(2)), That the original words stand part of the Question. The House proceeded to a Division.”
“That is important, given the fact that some rural constituencies cover very large areas, as we have heard. The Government recognise the serious impact that the world economic downturn is having across the country—and on rural communities too, of course. I must say that there is no real evidence—I have sifted through much of the evidence in the past few days—to show that rural communities are having a more difficult time than anywhere else. If anything, they are doing slightly better in some key areas. Many of the points raised in today’s debate have been informed and informative, and I have found them interesting. However, many of the questions from the Opposition have suggested that additional funding is the answer to the problems caused by the economic downturn and being experienced in rural communities.”
“I was very kind to give way to the hon. Gentleman, since he had only just walked into the Chamber, so I shall treat his comments with the contempt that they perhaps deserve. Thirdly, on Jobcentre Plus, the worldwide recession means that support and help for those suffering in the UK are vital. This is not a time to do nothing. That is why we are injecting £1.7 billion to ensure that people get the support they need now to weather the storm and quickly take advantage of the upturn when it comes. That is why we will not close the 25 Jobcentre Plus offices whose closure was previously announced, and there will be a moratorium on any further closures. Access is an important issue with Jobcentre Plus, but that will mean that more than 50 per cent. of people living in rural communities will live within 5 miles of their Jobcentre Plus centre.”
“You have made some very serious allegations, and no doubt you believe them to be founded. May I ask whether under the umbrella of parliamentary privilege you have given the people whom you are accusing of very serious things—”
“I beg your pardon, Mr. Speaker. Has the hon. Gentleman given the people against whom he is making accusations the opportunity to answer these points, and has he shown them his speech?”
“Can the hon. Gentleman tell me whether the people involved have seen the speech that he is giving today? Have they had a chance to digest it and comment on it before his using the privilege of the House in this way?”
“Those who harm children by using intimidation and violence against them often act in the same way towards the professionals who deal with them. Will my right hon. Friend ensure that the taskforce focuses carefully on intimidation by dysfunctional, dangerous, violent, aggressive and generally unpleasant and devious families? While I welcome the changes in the system that my right hon. Friend has announced and consider them necessary and appropriate, unless social workers out there in the field, or at the coal face, can apply them, that work will have been in vain.”
“This is a very welcome piece of news, and I am very appreciative. I know that all those who have access to the Great Western line stations will be very pleased indeed. They will not care who heard what when; they will just be pleased to hear this news. The improvements in reliability will be important to those who regularly use the railways in my region, as will the reductions in the duration of their journeys. May I, speaking as a geek—a railway person who, rather like my right hon. Friend, sat on railway stations as a schoolboy, in places such as Keynsham and Bristol Temple Meads—ask him whether the top speed on the Great Western network will be increased above the 125 mph limit that it has had for a long time?”
“As one of the hon. Members who has been through that process, I confirm that it does take a long time—much longer than a month would allow. I hope that my hon. Friend will revisit that process. It is like a game of ping-pong. We give information to the people in question and they carry out the changes that we hope they are meant to carry out. Sometimes they miss them, and it is necessary to check the details again, and then we often see things that we did not notice at first, such as an address, or postcodes on receipts that companies include in the reference number. It is a complicated and time-consuming process.”
“I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this important debate. I am not clear on whether he is saying that the problem is getting worse, or simply that we are more aware of it, that there is better reporting, that we know more about it, and that therefore we might conclude that the problem occurs more often and affects more children.”
“We want some housing for those who are desperately in need. In the district that I and the hon. Gentleman represent, 6,000 people are without homes. It is very important that we do not forget that in this debate.”
“I share many of the concerns that my hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley, West and Penistone (Mr. Clapham) has expressed, in relation to my own constituency. I hope that the Minister will refer to the research that he has mentioned, as I believe that it could have an impact on the decisions that she might ultimately make.”
“On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. When the Leader of the Opposition asked his question about vehicle excise tax during Prime Minister’s Question Time, should he not have declared that he had received a donation from a Bournemouth motor company, Jacksons?”
“Has my hon. Friend topple-tested anywhere else other than his own constituency? Does he think that the lack of danger to which he is alluding applies outside his constituency?”
“In fact, those facilities were not only for the work force; they were available for use by the local community and people further afield. Indeed, Keynsham relies heavily on those facilities for sports such as cricket, hockey and football. In fairness to Cadbury’s, it has indicated to me that it intends to keep the Fry club—the on-site sporting and social centre—so that it can be used even if the factory is closed. That is welcome relief to those who pursue sport and leisure activities at the site, but it does not take away the pain and discomfort for those who are economically reliant on the factory.”
“The number of workers has gradually fallen over the years, but previous staff reductions were dealt with through voluntary redundancy or by people deciding to take early retirement. Although just fewer than half the work force are aged 50-plus and might therefore benefit considerably from the packages on offer for early retirement, it would be wrong to underestimate how big a blow the closure will be to Keynsham, north-east Somerset, Bristol, Bath and the west country as a whole. The social impact of the proposed closure needs to be emphasised. The terrific traditions of the Quaker families who ran Cadbury’s and Fry’s—I should declare an interest in that I come from a Quaker family and understand their values—meant that the company provided sport and leisure facilities for its work force.”
“We must also understand that the proposed closure, as well as being a terrible blow for those who will be directly affected financially by it, will also be an economic blow to the town of Keynsham. Small business people in particular are concerned that the factory closure will have an impact on their businesses, and they fear that they may end up closing or losing much of their trade. The truth is that about a quarter of the work force live in Keynsham, so the issue goes wider than my constituency. It affects part of greater Bristol, Bath and much of north-east Somerset. Indeed, the whole west country could be described as having an involvement with the Cadbury’s factory at Keynsham. The proposal is alarming for people in the area.”
“Although Cadbury’s is one of the last to reduce its work force in that way, it says that such action is inevitable if it is to remain competitive and secure the jobs of UK workers in future. The company accepts that it is terribly sad to lay people off. It has had to close three factories around the country in the past five years and prides itself on working hard to provide good redundancy packages and training. Cadbury’s says that recent history shows that, by the time of closure, more than 90 per cent. of the work force will have found new jobs. It argues that, in a constituency such as mine, which in recent years has had the lowest unemployment in the UK, it is possible to ensure, with considerable effort and concern, to ensure that the impact is minimal, although what is happening is sad, regrettable and awful.”
“It must also be understood that changes in chocolate manufacture over the years have resulted in greater production with fewer people. At its peak in the 1950s, Somerdale employed about 5,000 workers. Ten years ago, that had fallen to 1,000, and there are currently 500. Of course, for those directly affected, the proposal to close the factory in 2010 is a great shock and a worry, which I am sure we appreciate. Cadbury’s says that it proposes to close Somerdale because it faces an increasingly competitive global market—arguably, confectionery is one of the most competitive businesses. Cadbury’s looked at competitors such as Mars at Slough, Terry’s, formerly of York, and Nestlé, and saw that they had reduced their UK work force and moved production abroad.”
“The site was specially chosen and purpose built, and it reflected the values and ethos of the Quaker families who owned and ran both Fry’s and Cadbury’s. It was a large site of many hundreds of acres. The idea was that the workers were not only units of production, but complete human beings. It was not only morally right to treat them well; it ended up being good business practice. Of course, many people will be familiar with brands such as Cream Eggs, Mini Eggs and, perhaps most famously, Crunchies, which are made at Somerdale. Amazingly, someone calculated that a week’s production of Crunchies would stretch to the moon and back. That is how prolific the company is in making that famous product and others.”
“I am grateful for the opportunity to debate Cadbury’s proposed closure of its Somerdale factory at Keynsham in north-east Somerset. The only way that we can properly understand the huge impact and significance of the proposal is to look briefly at the history of chocolate making in the area. It is fair to say that Bristol has led the UK, and arguably the world, in chocolate manufacture. In the mid-1700s, chocolate was being manufactured in the many small factories in the city. Many of those factories amalgamated to form J.S. Fry & Sons, which, after the first world war, amalgamated with Cadbury’s, the other well known chocolate manufacturer. Following that amalgamation in 1919, the company moved to its Somerdale site in Keynsham in about 1935.”
“Secondly, Cadbury’s view is short-sighted because, as the environment becomes a greater and increasingly important issue for many people as the years pass, it seems somewhat illogical to make chocolate bars in Poland, the vast majority of which will be imported to the UK, where Cadbury’s biggest market is.”
“First, Cadbury is risking short-termism with its attitude because it is looking at the wage differential, particularly in relation to its plans for production in Poland, where wages are so much lower than in the United Kingdom, although that will be of only short-term benefit. In five to 10 years, those wage differentials will have eroded. Cadbury’s needs to re-check its figures and calculations and think carefully about the tradition of Somerdale, where generations of Keynsham people, and Bristolians and Bathonians, have worked and produced great profit for Cadbury’s over the years. Cadbury’s needs to revisit all that and think about whether it wants to give up a skilled and dedicated work force. That is not just something the work force says, but something they have proven since the 1930s.”
“I have been impressed by the community’s reaction in all its forms, not least that of Unite the Union, and amazed by how it has communicated and co-ordinated its campaign. What has Cadbury’s proposed? The company is talking about complete closure in 2010 through a series of phased redundancies, although they will not begin until 2009. The company says that it needs to do that to move production to Bourneville in Birmingham—where it will lose 200 jobs, but in which it is to invest £40 million—and to Poland. According to Cadbury’s, the proposals have been made in the context of aiming to reduce its global work force by about 15 per cent. That was first mentioned in summer, before the specific announcement on Somerdale in October. The closure is wrong for two main reasons.”
“I completely agree with the hon. Gentleman. It goes further than the families: as I said, I have an interest because I come from a Quaker family and we talk about the matter a lot, because we would like to see more of those values, not less. The Bishop of Bath and Wells, I believe, has supported keeping the factory open for the reason that the values that created the factory are being forgotten, or it at least appears that way. I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman agrees, but there is an irony in the fact that the Quaker values of co-operation, working together and respecting one another seem to be displayed by those who oppose the closure rather than by Cadbury’s, although the company would doubtless deny that.”
“However, I hope that it will not be necessary for it to deal with the loss of an iconic brand, Fry’s, and the closure of a factory that has been hugely significant for the whole community for many a long year and has affected many generations. When Cadbury’s comes to make its final calculations and assessment when the formal consultation finishes in the middle of next month, I hope that it concludes that there are other ways to make the competitive savings that it needs without needing to close this wonderful factory and lay off the wonderful workers at Somerdale who have been a dedicated staff for many years, produced profits for Cadbury’s and deserve to be treated better than to face a proposed closure.”
“I should like to think that, after meeting those people directly and hearing from them, he would be minded to talk to Cadbury’s board about its proposals to close the site and not least work through my two key criticisms of the short-termism of this plan, as well as the environmental impact. The closure proposal is terrible, but it would be even worse if Cadbury’s and the rest of the Keynsham community were to look back and say that the decision was utterly and completely wrong but was still pushed forward. That would be a tragedy of Shakespearean proportions. We all hope and continue to fight to keep the factory open, but whatever happens the community of Keynsham is resilient and tough and will overcome the hurdles facing it.”
“I also thank the community of Keynsham and the surrounding area, where people have collected petitions. I am conducting a survey by questionnaire, as well. Lots of people have done sterling work because they feel so passionately and strongly about this subject. I invite my right hon. Friend the Minister to come to the Somerdale factory, if he can possibly do so. Failing that, perhaps he will invite a delegation from the factory to see him. I appreciate that he is very busy, but it would be great if he could get a feel for the site by visiting it. I want him to hear from the workers and those directly affected, because they have a passion that is impressive and insight that will inform him.”
“In particular, I also praise Julie Harding, the senior reporter on the Evening Post , whom I have known for 25 years. She has written some amazingly illustrative and insightful pieces about the proposal to close the site. It is encouraging to see the detail being put out there so that people can make their minds up and make an informed decision about what Cadbury’s is doing. I want to thank Unite the Union, which has organised many events and continues to do so, and has strong views, which it makes clear. I am grateful to it. However, most of all, I thank the work force—not just those at Somerdale, but other Cadbury workers all over the country who have attended various rallies and events to show their complete opposition to the proposed closure.”
“We had a foretaste of this situation some years ago—in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, East (Kerry McCarthy), I think—when Elizabeth Shaw shut its factory. I cannot remember when that was, although I think it was more than 10 years ago. Although we had that foretaste, I do not think that anyone ever thought it would apply to Somerdale, which was considered a much bigger, much more established factory. I want to thank various people who have been active in the campaign opposing the proposal to close the factory. Not least, I want to thank the Bristol Evening Post and its editor, Mike Norton, who has shown that local and regional newspapers can go back to the traditional values of in-depth reporting and explanation.”
“Although we must consider the nation’s overall benefits and what gains there need to be for the economy, and one thing and another, when thinking about a factory such as Somerdale, which is so well known and so well established and which has been profitable throughout its existence, it is hard to understand why closure might be the right thing, particularly if people are directly affected, but even if they are not. I am sure that my right hon. Friend the Minister will be thinking carefully and constantly reviewing the Government’s strategy in relation to this matter, but people find the proposed closure hard to understand, particularly when there is such a long and great tradition. Chocolate making has been happening in Bristol since the mid-1700s and it is worrying to think that there could be no chocolate manufacturer in the area.”
“The management of the economy under the Labour Government for the past 10 years has been hugely impressive—it is the envy of the western industrialised world in respect of unemployment figures—but we have low unemployment not because we do not have factory closures or redundancies or whatever, but because we can create more jobs than are lost. Clearly, that is a vital part of why Britain is thriving economically in the world, even with the global challenges that we face. We are in a better position to face those challenges because of the past 10 years, but nothing is omnipresent and totally consistent. I ask my right hon. Friend the Minister for Competitiveness to think about that.”
“Cadbury’s argues that this is all necessary because of the competitive market in which it operates and that it fears that if it does not stay competitive, like the other confectionery companies that it competes with directly, it risks being bought out by some other company from abroad. Cadbury’s wants to ensure that, by having a leaner, smaller work force, it is more robust in respect of such challenges in the years ahead and that it remains a well-known, world-renowned British name. I have to hope that Cadbury’s calculations are right and that its thinking is right, although, for the two key reasons I have mentioned, I am not happy. I recognise that the Government have done wonderful things with the economy.”
“I thank my hon. Friend for her helpful intervention. I am not sure whether the figure is 98 per cent., but the vast bulk of the production will certainly come back to the UK. It beggars belief that that is an environmentally sound thing to do. When I asked Cadbury’s about that, it said that the new plant in Poland in which it proposes to invest will be so efficient that it will offset the carbon footprint of transporting all that chocolate to the UK. However, having said that, surely the environmental impact or benefit would be that much greater if Cadbury’s invested in Somerdale. I think that Cadbury’s somewhat undermines its own argument. The two key concerns are the short-termism of Cadbury’s economic thinking plus the environmental aspects.”
“Norton Hill secondary school in my constituency, under the headship of Peter Beaven, has just had an Ofsted report. The school was deemed outstanding under each of the headings under which it was assessed. That is a highly unique status. However, although schools and pupils throughout the country have attained much better results under a Labour Government in the past 10 years, many pupils, especially those from more modest backgrounds who are in the first generation to go to university, still do not aspire to the very highest and most traditional universities. They avoid applying to, for example, Oxford or Cambridge. May we have an early debate on how to encourage those young people, who are now achieving terrific grades, to aspire to the very highest standards in our land?”
“Will my hon. Friend assure me that the Government’s approach does not embrace the so-called no blame approach to bullying? About 18 months ago, in response to problems in Bristol schools, the then Liberal Democrat-run council gave out an instruction to schools that pupils should not be punished for bullying other pupils, and I am still angry about that.”
“Does my hon. Friend agree that although the public overwhelmingly support the Government proposals, there is a resistance among some police officers—in fact, among some chief constables? For example, Colin Port, the excellent chief constable for Avon and Somerset, told me today that he will not apply for the pilot scheme project, despite the fact that the right hon. Member for Airdrie and Shotts (John Reid) told me when he was Home Secretary that there would be a pilot in my area. Does my hon. Friend accept that among police forces there is a resistance that does not reflect the true public mood and desire to deal with sex offenders in a thorough and robust way?”
“May we have an early debate into the running of price-comparison websites for goods and services? There is a growing concern that those sites for consumers do not always offer the best deal because they hide the payments that they are making to various companies, and they do not necessarily include the whole range of goods and services available. Some people have called for a code of conduct; I am not sure whether that is the right way forward, but I feel that regulation of some kind is needed to ensure the best possible deal for consumers on the web.”
“In the United States of America increasing sums are being spent on higher education, and that is not just from the Government but from private sources. In the developing world, places like India and China are also spending huge sums on higher education. May we have an early debate on how the British Government can support UK universities in the competing global economy, to ensure that our universities remain as successful as they have always been?”
“I welcome the Minister’s statement, particularly when I contrast it to my professional experience working in child care 15 or 20 years ago, when staff were being made redundant, budgets were being cut and there were certainly no new buildings. Could I ask the Minister whether she has made any provision for rural and semi-rural communities in her plans? Deprivation is clearly a difficult issue wherever it is, but it is particularly challenging when it is compounded by isolation.”
“The hon. Gentleman started by saying that his remarks were not applicable equally across the whole UK, because it was the Scottish experience that he was talking about. Can he tell me whether things are happening in England to support victims that are better than in Scotland, and vice versa?”
“Does the hon. Gentleman consider sex offenders to have mental health problems? How would he tackle the high levels of reoffending among that group of people? They pose a genuine concern to the public and my understanding of Liberal Democrat policy is that proposals about tackling those serious and worrying offenders are unclear.”
“May we have a debate on child protection? The Labour Government should be given credit for some wonderful achievements over the past 10 years, and there have also been some encouraging statements over the last two weeks about child protection and joined-up thinking between Government Departments. There will, however, be challenges in the future and we need to debate them soon if we are to improve the lot of children and their safety.”
“Following the welcome statement on child sex offenders made yesterday by the Home Secretary, which has received universal support, may we have an early debate on child protection issues so that we can not just examine the excellent record of the Labour Government in the past 10 years in this area, but look seriously at the real challenges that we face in the future if we are to make our children even safer?”
“The onus on offenders to provide information such as DNA samples if they have not already done so, passport numbers, e-mail addresses and other information is very welcome, but has the Home Secretary any plans for judges to be encouraged to provide the kind of sentences that make it an offence for offenders even to approach children or try to work with them, as part of the sentencing that they have been given?”