Dan Norris
MP for North East Somerset and Hanham · Independent · United Kingdom
“I should declare an interest as chair of the League Against Cruel Sports. Drag hunting was invented 200 years ago. It is a peaceful activity. Trail hunting is not. It is designed to get around the current legislation. Why does my hon. Friend think that centuries of tradition are being ignored by the pro-hunting fraternity?”
“The Nolan principles also apply to officers working in the public sector. I am a regional mayor, as well as a Member. I am aware that a regional mayor in the east of England is currently talking with a chief constable about officers under the previous mayor making decisions that should have been made by politicians—in other words, the nor…”
“Member has said so far, but does he think there should there be a special circumstance or a modification to the rules to allow those officers, who keep moving around and carry on working in local government, to be held to account?”
““Vengeance Most Fowl” is not just what the public inflicted on the Conservative party at the general election. It is also the name of the Aardman Animations Wallace and Gromit film coming out soon, which will be shown on the BBC on Christmas day and on Netflix around the world.”
“What will the Government do to assist with training for the fishing fleets, not least in landlocked areas? In the west of England, we are very keen to promote training for things that are not necessarily associated only with our area.”
“I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this important debate. Could she comment on the use of artificial intelligence to create child sexual abuse materials? That is a key issue now.”
The complete record
Every one of 190 lines we hold for Dan Norris, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 4 of 4.
“Of course the Bevin Boys’ contribution was very significant, but 700,000 regular miners also contributed to the war effort, and we should not forget them.”
“Can my right hon. Friend elaborate on other groups of workers who, although not usually considered emergency service providers, none the less fall into that category in some situations? Examples include approved social workers when they are sectioning people, and child protection officers when they have to remove children from danger. Can my right hon. Friend clarify the scope of the provision?”
“Does my hon. Friend accept that although the Bill is welcome and positive in many respects, other aspects of Government legislation are making a huge difference to, for example, the number of assaults experienced by NHS staff? The number of assaults against nurses has drastically reduced in recent years because of other aspects of Government business.”
“I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate. Will she say a little more about the resourcing of that helpline? It does a wonderful job, but it has to raise all the money it needs to provide the service. Does she also share my disappointment that despite the high-profile comments about young people by the Leader of the Opposition recently, not one single Conservative Member is present for the debate?”
“I am grateful to the Minister for giving way, as I know that he has limited time. Could he possibly drop me a line along the lines of the one for the hon. Member for Bath (Mr. Foster), as the services at Keynsham in my constituency are to be reduced at commuter times? The capacity of the trains will also be reduced, and that is causing great concern.”
“I join my hon. Friend in congratulating the Bristol Evening Post on its campaign against fee-charging machines, and not least for publishing the locations of those machines that do not charge, which is extremely helpful and allows consumer power to have an impact on this debate. However, does she agree that the real issue here is old-fashioned greed? The banks originally saved a lot of money on staff costs by introducing machines, and they now want to get a double-whammy by charging after the machines are in place in order to increase that saving. Therefore, the reason for these machines is simply old-fashioned wickedness and lack of moral fibre, which is being displayed by banks that already make huge profits.”
“Does the hon. Lady agree that that is part of a cynical attempt to create a situation in which most machines charge? Then the banks that owned the free machines could simply say, "Market forces are now such that we must also charge."”
“May we have an early debate on the impact of the Licensing Act 2003? I for one would very much want to be present for it, and would book my seat in advance, as I want to hear the Opposition having to eat their words.”
“Does the hon. Gentleman not accept that computer system delays, overruns and higher costs are not unique to Government? Such things happen in most well known and well established public sector companies in the UK and in international companies—even in some American companies. This is not unique to Government.”
“It is not for me to defend the Leader of the Opposition, but several of his colleagues are here to put the case for the Bill, whereas only one Liberal Democrat Member has been present all morning.”
“May we have an early debate on the no-blame approach to bullying in our schools, as adopted by Liberal Democrat-controlled Bristol city council? Does the Deputy Leader of the House share my view that, although that council may not want to blame or punish bullies, the voters of Bristol will want to blame and punish the council for its irresponsible approach to child protection?”
“7. This Friday, as part of anti-bullying week, Lib-Dem controlled Bristol city council will call on its teachers not to punish or blame pupils who bully other pupils. What message does the Prime Minister have for those who adopt a no-blame approach, which, in my view, is dangerous and reckless, does nothing for the victims and does nothing to make bullies change their behaviour? [30885]”
“Surely, terrorism provides a similar example: we know that terrible things can and may happen, so we have to ensure that our legal system can deal with them appropriately.”
“The hon. Gentleman talks about the need for solid evidence and most of us would agree with that. Already in our legal system, however, is a recognition that getting the necessary evidence is not as straightforward as we would like. For example, we know that only 1 per cent. of people are convicted in child protection cases, but we also know that child abuse is widespread and a terrible thing. Our legal system deals with that by having common law family courts that are able, if necessary in the most extreme circumstances, to take children away from people who might harm them. We have a special system. Despite what the hon. Gentleman says about the need for evidence, the key is that we cannot always prove matters as simply or straightforwardly as we would like, even though we know that bad things are happening.”
“I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way. Does not Lord Carlile also say that he has no problem with 90-day pre-charge detention; he is just concerned about the safeguards that are in place? The hon. Gentleman is prepared to cite Lord Carlile in one example; why is he not prepared to do so in that important example?”
“On encryption, it is possible for someone to walk off the street into a store and buy a 192-bit encryption device, which is based on American military technology. Our security services are able to access that technology and counter it. They need the initial period of a few weeks to work out what the code is. I appreciate that the hon. Gentleman keeps referring to the maximum pre-charge detention as three months, but he does not emphasise that that is a maximum. There are weekly reviews. By their own admission, the police do not expect, other than in the most exceptional circumstances, the period of detention to be anywhere near that long. It is entirely misleading not to make it clear that there is constant review throughout the process and that three months is a maximum.”
“Will the Leader of the House arrange for an early statement or debate on the miners compensation scheme? In my constituency, Wansdyke, the last pit closed more than a quarter of a century ago, which means that the average age of claimants is that much higher than in the country as a whole, and many of them are dying before receiving the compensation from which they should be entitled to benefit. Will my right hon. Friend draw the attention of the Department of Trade and Industry to that, so that the claims of older miners can be prioritised over other claimants, even though that is a difficult challenge?”
“In light of today's news regarding the Victoria Climbié case, whereby the social worker who had been banned from working with children is now able to do so, could we have an early debate on child protection issues? Does the Leader of the House agree that one mark of a civilised society is that those who have to be charged with looking after and protecting our children have the necessary resources, supervision, training and salaries to ensure that the important work that they do is properly rewarded?”
“He was able to call the bluff of the various parties. The construction company, Mowlem, said that it was happy for the media to attend, and claimed that Bath and North East Somerset council was causing the difficulty in terms of access. The council said the exact opposite—that it was happy for the media to attend, but the construction company had failed to let them in. A Shakespearian situation was set up. The Minister, having obtained unconditional access and agreement from Mowlem that he could attend and bring with him whomever he wanted, invited, through me, all the media.”
“Indeed, I have read reports from America about the farcical circumstances that surround it. The total cost has escalated from £13 million to about £40 million with hidden costs, and I suspect that it will be higher by the time the project is completed. I should tell my hon. Friend the Minister that his intervention last month, when he visited the spa, was very timely and much appreciated. So far, I have not mentioned the fact that the project has been cloaked in tremendous secrecy. As soon as things started to go wrong in 2003 and 2004, media access to the project and to information about it was conspicuous by its absence, as was co-operation with representatives of the media who wanted to go inside and see what all that council tax payers' money was being spent on. That is why the Minister's visit was so valuable.”
“The total that is to be spent on painting four small pools is something like the cost of a small primary school; we know how much more wanted and valued a school would be. The figure defied the belief of my constituents. Now we are in 2005, and that started badly. The per-head cost, that is the extra cost over and above the original amount for every man, woman and child in the district, including people in my constituency and that of the hon. Member for Bath (Mr. Foster), turned out to be £116. To put that into context, it is nearly seven times the £17 per head that the millennium dome cost every man, woman and child. It is a stupendous figure, and one that has sent shock waves around my constituency and elsewhere in the area. The project is infamous not just among my constituents but across south-west England and beyond.”
“In addition, it was decided that because the surface had to be scraped away and blasted off back to the concrete for the new surface to be applied, the original concrete steps were no longer adequate and what was needed to allow people to enter and exit the pools were stainless steel steps costing £500,000. In addition, the council announced that it had overlooked £300,000 in architect fees. The public were, understandably, very concerned. In fact, they were mystified. Can the Minister shed any light on the saga of the huge cost of the paint? How was it not foreseen at the start of the project that such expensive paint would be needed? Why was the cost not factored in at the outset?”
“When they saw expenditure such as that on the cobblestones, they questioned the wisdom of the project, and asked whether there was sufficient skill and talent to manage it. It was being overseen by the council. Then we arrived in 2004. That was a truly appalling year, a year that my constituents are unlikely to forget when it comes to the saga of the Bath spa. It turned out that a special paint was required for the pools and a special surface was also needed, so the previous estimate of £500,000 was incorrect. It was estimated that that would cost between £3.4 million and £4.3 million. That is a huge sum of money for paint for four small pools.”
“That might have been a subtle issue in the general scale of things, but council tax payers started to become very angry when they realised that, in order for them to enjoy the wonderful spectacle of the three tenors at the Bath spa project, cobblestones had been laid to make the area look attractive on the outside, although it was known that, only weeks later, they would have to be dug up at the cost of many tens of thousands of pounds. There is dubious benefit from the project to my constituents, who live in the part of Bath and north-east Somerset that is outside the city—in fact, many of them live closer to Bristol than to Bath—so the requirement on them to contribute to the project via their council tax had never been received with great joy.”
“However, most of that water came not from the thermal springs that make Bath famous but from the mains supply, because there was difficulty in obtaining sufficient water. Questions have been raised about the contamination of some of the spa's sources, but it is hoped that those can be resolved. Then, significantly, peeling paint was spotted in the pools. At that time, it was expected that it would cost some £500,000 to correct.”
“The year 2001 was another bad one, with very little progress. It was significant because it was the year in which the Bath spa project was intended to open. The opening date came and went, and it turned out to be the first of six opening dates that have not been achieved. The council so lacks confidence that it is not prepared to say whether the project will open this year. Then came 2003, which turned out to be yet another bad year. The three tenors gave a terrific concert, which was very well received by local people but, sadly, it was not possible for them to open the spa as planned. The four pools were filled with water, so everything looked fine from the outside when the media were allowed in to see the three tenors walking around the premises.”
“If private initiative examines a project and realises it cannot make money, that should be a clear indication to a local authority, whose job it is to provide cost-effective local services rather than dabble in the market and risk council tax payers' money. With the benefit of hindsight, 2000 was a bad year. There was a hung council, and all the Liberal Democrat councillors, except those with a pecuniary interest, supported the project, and about half the Labour councillors supported the underwriting of the project. About half the Tory councillors supported the project, although that is denied by Conservative councillors. However, Councillors Bailey, Dewey, Hawkins, Kew and Organ are on record as having voted for the project, so perhaps they can write to tell me if they disagree.”
“That was a necessary delay and was compounded by nature, as mallards were nesting on the site and had to be left there before construction work could start. The start was hopeful, but sadly progress was slow. In 2000 a key decision was made about the financing of the project. It is often referred to as the time when councillors signed a blank cheque and effectively underwrote whatever costs might accrue on the project, simply because they had had little success in securing other funding. That is regrettable and should have rung the alarm bell that they were likely to get into deep water.”
“It was announced in 1997 that the Millennium Commission had agreed to pay about £7 million towards the project. Latterly it gave about an extra £1 million, giving it a total of about £8 million. It was announced also that the local council, Bath and North East Somerset council, would contribute about £3 million, and that a private operator would make an additional contribution of about £2 million to make a project total of about £13 million. Through no one's fault, the project got off to a bad start. Excavations at the site were protracted. Bath has historical importance, and it is important to ensure that when new buildings are constructed, one knows what historical damage one is doing.”
“The title of this debate will be a mystery to many of those people who do not live in or near my constituency; however, the debate has come about is because of the bitter experience of council tax payers in the north-east Somerset part of my constituency. It has been a sad and sorry tale. I am referring to the Bath spa project, a new, modern and exciting development that has tragically gone wrong. It is at least three years overdue and at least three times over budget, costing about £35 million when it should have cost £13 million. About £5 million of additional costs will take the project up to £40 million, and there is still no opening date. Although I know that the Minister is well briefed about the matter, perhaps I can explain to him a little bit about the history of the project.”
“That was important and made a difference; huge public pressure developed as a consequence of people's knowing about the huge delays, and about the fact that all that money had been spent on the project, yet years on it was still a building site. Within about three days—on the Thursday following the Monday of the visit—the council and the construction company were having face-to-face meetings lasting for hours, whereas in the previous 12 months they had had hardly any face-to-face meetings at all. That was very helpful, and I thank the Minister for his important intervention. Without it, we would still be sitting there without media access and, I suspect, without discussion of the offer made by the construction company to complete the project in six months.”
“I shall not give way now, but might do so if the hon. Gentleman tries again slightly later. There was disagreement about who was responsible for the access—or the lack of it—by the media. I have here a letter from BANES' lawyers, Veale Wasbrough, dated 24 January 2005, writing to the solicitors who represent the construction company Mowlem; effectively, it is a letter from the council to the construction company. I shall not read it all, but the key paragraph says: "No statement or comment must be made to the press or in public with regard to the Project Works without the prior written consent of the Council." I shall leave it for them to carry on arguing, but I know who my money is on as the cause of the difficulty about access. The Minister came, the bluff was called and the media were allowed in.”
“It produced a brochure that described what it was like to be in the spa, as if the spa had been open, and left us all with egg on our faces when people arrived from the USA, for example, only to find that it was not open. Motorway signs near the project still point to the spa, even though it has not been completed.”
“I suggest strongly that he surround himself with people who do not just say yes all the time. A year ago, I believe that the Minister set up a confidential meeting between the three parties; the council, the construction company and the architects. Unfortunately, that confidential meeting was undermined by the fact that it was leaked to the media by councillors from Bath and North East Somerset council. That was terribly unhelpful. Litigation has been rife in this matter; all the parties have been sending legal letters left, right and centre. As I understand it, only last year that council had to pay legal bills of £500,000. There is a lot more of that to come, I am sad to say. In many respects, the council has been irresponsible in how it has dealt with the project.”
“of callers wanted the construction company's offer to finish the project within six months to be accepted. However, amazingly, 33 per cent. were so fed up with the incompetence of BANES that they wanted the project to be abandoned, and no more money to be wasted on it. They had lost faith that it would ever be completed. The whole affair has been a case study in how not to manage a building project and how to alienate council tax payers. Some years ago, would you believe, a council employee admitted on ITV West that the project was a loss leader. That was later denied, but was none the less said on camera. When I was in a live interview with the council leader on national breakfast TV, he just lost his temper; clearly he is not used to being criticised or asked questions about the project.”
“I want to push on. I shall give way to the hon. Gentleman if I can. I must thank the Minister also for his frankness in discussing the competence of the council. The story is rather like that of the emperor's new clothes. The Minister came, saw and stated what everyone in my area really knew; the council had been incompetent in its handling of the project. That was confirmed, if confirmation were needed, by a television poll on BBC's "Points West" regional news programme on the evening of the Minister's visit. More than 1,200 telephone calls were received in about 20 minutes. Bath and North East Somerset council was backed by 11 per cent. of those who rang in—people who thought that the project had been handled in the right way—and 55 per cent.”
“The whole Bath spa fiasco has brought humiliation and damage to our area; it is like a "Carry On" film, but I am afraid that no one in my constituency is laughing.”
“Thank you, Mr. Olner; I shall respect that. I say in conclusion that modern methods of construction should mean cost-effective buildings for council tax payers; buildings that bring pride, not ridicule. The problem with incompetent councils is that they are often way out of their depth and cannot deal with such things. I hope that Bath and North East Somerset council will stick to basics in future. The Millennium Commission needs to think about how and when it gives such large sums of money to organisations that are not up to scratch when it comes to fulfilling their commitments. The district auditor needs to be clear about how council tax payers can best be guaranteed to get value for money.”
“The ill fated Bath spa project is four years overdue and still not open, with no opening date in sight. It is £20 million over budget and it is costing every one of my constituents—every man, woman and child—the equivalent of £116 each in waste. May we please have an urgent debate on local authority spending and some of the madcap councils—the one in question happens to be run by the Liberal Democrats and the Tories—so that we can address the waste? As a Government we provide millions to local authorities. The Opposition parties talk about getting rid of waste, but this example clearly shows that they are off-beam and out of touch.”
“The Minister mentioned the Liberal Democrats. They have spoken of a 50 per cent. higher rate of income tax. If the sums are done correctly, is it not nearer 83 per cent.?”