Sir Christopher Chope
MP for Christchurch · Conservative · United Kingdom
“When was the last time that an allotted Opposition day was withdrawn in the way that the Leader of the House is withdrawing this one? I was looking at my calendar of business, otherwise known as the Order Paper, and it says that “The selection of the matters to be debated will be made by the Leader of the Opposition (Standing Order No.”
“The Climate Change Committee has condemned the Government for failing and falling short of adapting to climate change and accepting the reality as it is, which is that by the end of this century, global temperatures will have increased to between 3.5° and 4.5° above pre-industrial levels.”
“The Minister has referred to the grooming gangs inquiry carried out by our friend, the hon. Member for Great Yarmouth (Rupert Lowe), and early-day motion 380 makes a number of recommendations. Will the Minister engage with the hon.”
“The landmark 250th anniversary of the declaration of independence by the United States takes place in the week commencing 29 June. I have applied for an Adjournment debate, but will the Leader of the House enable more Members to be able to participate in marking that historic event?”
“That is exactly what I did on behalf of my constituent Paul Kenchington: I wrote to the Secretary of State about the specialist steel that he uses, and I have not had a reply.”
“Next week, can the Leader of the House produce a Government statement in response to the Hallett review on covid-19 vaccines? Lady Hallett recommended major reform of the vaccine damage payment scheme.”
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“The ICB is not elected or accountable. We have an elected and accountable council—BCP council—which decided that the surgery in Burton, a community facility that had been there for more than 30 years, should remain and that permission should not be granted to change its use, because of its value as a community asset. Why should the ICB be able to second-guess the elected representatives of the community? Is that not intolerable?”
“One of the issues is that since the branch surgery was closed, Christchurch medical practice has reduced its number of full-time equivalent GP doctors. There used to be 10.7 and now there are only 10.2, which may be part of the problem. Surely it must be in the interests of the Government, the taxpayer and everybody else to allow a branch surgery to reopen, at minimal additional cost, to the benefit of 4,500 people in the Christchurch area.”
“Would the hon. Lady’s second question for the Minister include All Saints Mudeford, which burned down two years ago? The rebuilding process cannot be started because of the extra burden of VAT, so the church is raising money for that.”
“I accept the wisdom behind this new clause, but will the Minister go further and comment on new clause 39, in the name of my right hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh)? That new clause is designed to put an end to another mischief affecting the non-refoulement rules; it would ensure that primacy was given to the torture convention and the refugee convention, and that it was not possible for the European Court of Human Rights to interpret the European convention on human rights in such a way as to exclude those provisions.”
“The problem I have with it is that it does not go far enough. It talks about getting rid of or disapplying the Human Rights Act, but of only disapplying the interim arrangements of the European Court of Human Rights. We need to go much further than that, and I am slightly reluctant to be enthusiastic about the new clause. One provision that I am very enthusiastic about, and which I am disappointed that the official Opposition will not call a Division on, is new clause 15. The shadow Home Secretary’s explanatory statement says: “This new clause would prevent a foreign national who is convicted of any offence from remaining in the UK, as well as anyone who has been charged with”—”
“Friend’s new clause would give precedence to the non-refoulement arrangements in the refugee convention and in the UN convention against torture, but it would not allow the European convention on human rights and the interpretation of the European Court of Human Rights to extend beyond those provisions. That is very important, because fundamental to English law is the principle of equity. If people come here with clean hands and seek justice and our support, we should be keen to encourage that, but if people come here and abuse our hospitality or have already committed offences, we should get rid of them quickly. That is not very easy at the moment, because of how the courts interpret the European convention on human rights. My right hon. Friend the Member for Tatton (Esther McVey) referred to new clause 14.”
“May I speak briefly to new clause 39, in the name of my right hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh)? He is unfortunately not able to present this argument himself, because he is attending a meeting of the Committee on Legal Affairs and Human Rights of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe, and he asked if I would speak briefly in support of his new clause. I hope that I can encourage the Minister to expand a bit on whether the Government think that this is rather a good way of ensuring that the worst abuses in the courts system are avoided. Essentially, my right hon.”
“I hope that the Minister will get much tougher on this issue, but sadly, the Bill seems to weaken the offence regime under immigration law, rather than strengthening it, as we should.”
“I agree with my right hon. Friend. If one wants a current example, there was a headline in The Daily Telegraph on 1 May that read, “Migrant spared prison after punching female officer”. [ Interruption. ] This was a fact—it was a court case in Poole in Dorset, not far from my constituency. A small-boat migrant who repeatedly punched two female police officers was spared jail. That is completely laughable, and on that I have the support of David Sidwick, Dorset’s excellent police and crime commissioner, who is trying to take this issue further. When people who have come here seeking our help and assistance abuse the system, and we indulge their presence, that brings the whole system into disrepute.”
“I very much support the Secretary of State’s concerns about the automotive industry in this country. Will he therefore take action immediately to remove the arbitrary restrictions on the ability of our domestic motor manufacturers to produce and sell vehicles with internal combustion engines? The Government’s policy has already reduced the domestic production of vehicles in this country by a third between February last year and February this year. Why does he not lead by example and remove all tariffs on US vehicles?”
“Waiting times for patients living in the village of Burton outside Christchurch could be drastically cut if the local integrated care board were to approve the creation of a new branch surgery. That application has been outstanding for more than four months. Will the Secretary of State put a bomb under Dorset ICB and get it to approve it straight away?”
“Can the Solicitor General confirm that it is imperative that prosecution rates for all cases of violence are increased, and that she is not suggesting to the prosecuting authorities that they should discriminate on the grounds of gender?”
“I congratulate my hon. Friend on bringing to the House this horrific catalogue of embarrassing incidents—embarrassing to Members of this House and previous Administrations, because we have been asleep on the job. The legal authorities were able to stamp down on last summer’s riots in Southport so effectively by taking tough measures; does he agree that that is called for now? Talk about reducing the incidence of knife crime by half over 10 years is totally inadequate. Immediate action is needed to make an example of this type of crime and deter others from participating.”
“My Bill seeks to ensure that the most significant quangos are accountable to Parliament.”
“There are probably different solutions for resolving that, depending on their specific nature.”
“I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on introducing a Bill on this important subject. He mentions research. Can he explain why the extent of clauses 2 and 3 is limited to England and Wales? What is happening in Scotland in relation to the research issues?”
“I would have thought that he would have accepted that he got it wrong, and the new guidelines would be withdrawn before 1 April. However, that does not seem to have happened yet. We now know that the guidelines were the subject of quite critical comments when they went out to consultation, including from the Magistrates Association, which described them as a get-out-of-jail-free card. Why have we set up a system whereby the Sentencing Council is able to dictate this type of policy, overriding the will of Ministers and elected Members of Parliament?”
“—[ Official Report , 5 March 2025; Vol. 763, c. 287.] Within hours, however, it became apparent that the Justice Secretary did not have the control that she thought she had over the activities of the Sentencing Council. The new guidelines, due to be implemented from 1 April, remain unaltered and unaffected by what both the Secretary of State for Justice and her shadow have said to this House. I understand from today’s newspapers that yesterday there was a meeting between the Justice Secretary and the chairman of the Sentencing Council, Lord Justice William Davis. I would have expected to have seen in the same press release that Lord Justice William Davis had now conceded to the Justice Secretary, who I think spoke for everybody in this House by saying that we should not have a two-tier justice system.”
“Earlier this month, on 5 March, that independent arm’s length body issued new guidelines for the sentencing of offenders from minority groups. That issue was taken up by the shadow Secretary of State for Justice, my right hon. Friend the Member for Newark (Robert Jenrick), during the questions that followed a statement by the Justice Secretary. My right hon. Friend challenged the Justice Secretary by pointing out that the new sentencing guidelines would make a custodial sentence less likely for those from “an ethnic minority, cultural minority, and/or faith minority community.” In her response, the Justice Secretary said: “As somebody from an ethnic minority background, I do not stand for any differential treatment before the law for anyone. There will never be a two-tier sentencing approach under my watch”.”
“It is therefore beyond my wildest dreams that a Labour Government seem to understand, at least in part, the problem that arm’s length bodies present to Parliament, particularly to the House of Commons, and the Ministers, through their unaccountable structures. As The Times leader this morning puts it: “Arm’s-length bodies…have often been favoured by ministers as a way of distancing themselves from contentious issues. But the result is often a duplication of effort, resulting in turf wars between Whitehall ministries and ALBs over policy. Free of the need to answer to voters, ALBs can go rogue, as Highways England did over its promotion, in the face of public opposition, of so-called smart motorways.” For another current, topical example of that problem, one need look no further than the Sentencing Council.”
“I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time. As you will know, Madam Deputy Speaker, timing is important in politics. When, last autumn, I chose today for the Second Reading of the Bill, how could I have predicted that arm’s length bodies, which I will abbreviate to ALBs, would have been mentioned four times in The Times leader this very morning? Nor could I have predicted the generosity of the Government Whips in allowing—indeed, facilitating—debate on this important Bill. I first introduced the Bill in the 2023-24 Session, but Dissolution prevented it from being debated. I have to say, I do not think the Government who were in office at that time would have been very responsive to the contents of the Bill.”
“They are in three different categories: executive agencies, non-departmental public bodies and non-ministerial departments. They have slightly varying relationships with the House and with Government, but there are far too many of them. How many arm’s length bodies are there? I was told by a Cabinet Office Minister in response to my question that on 4 July last year, there were 307 arm’s length bodies, and 135 of those had an annual operating expenditure in excess of £5 million in 2023-24. Although the Minister ducked my other question of how many there are now, we know that since coming into office, the Government have removed one quango and created 27 new ones. Although the Prime Minister has taken some decisive action on one quango, there are a heck of a lot of others that I hope will come under his scrutiny.”
“Friend the Member for Newark, which is on the Order Paper today—the Sentencing Council (Powers of Secretary of State) Bill—would enable the House and the Minister to take back control from the Sentencing Council over issues relating to a sentencing policy and guidance. I would find it amazing if the Government sought to block progress on that Bill today. There is everything to be said for it going through all stages in the House in one day, because it is essentially an emergency measure in response to the fact that, so far, the Sentencing Council does not seem to have responded positively to the representations of the Justice Secretary. The Sentencing Council is not unique in being able to ignore the wishes of Ministers and Parliament. Most arm’s length bodies have a similar status to the Sentencing Council.”
“I cannot speak for the previous Government because I was not a member, although obviously I was in the House. My understanding is that this has become a live issue only within recent weeks and months, and that the present Government have been involved in discussions behind the scenes. I am not blaming the Justice Secretary, because I think that perhaps her officials misread what she said or perhaps did not understand the need to consult her. They seem to have been to meetings with the Sentencing Council. It is my understanding that the consultation process came to a conclusion after the present Government came into office. We should all agree that we need to try to find a way through. A Bill promoted by my right hon.”
“I am just coming to that—I have to say that I am absolutely delighted. I am not ambivalent about it; it is really good news, and I will give some examples of how frustrating it has been in my constituency to try to engage with the organisation called NHS Dorset —it used to be called the integrated care board—and how difficult it has been to get any timely responses. I am delighted that the Prime Minister obviously agrees with the objective of the Bill. Whereas this Bill inevitably had to tread carefully around the subject matter, the best way of getting parliamentary accountability of the activities of arm’s length bodies is to abolish those bodies completely, which is what the Prime Minister announced yesterday.”
“The Prime Minister said yesterday that these quangos and regulators end up blocking what the Government want to do, and that is obviously unsatisfactory. In a democracy, we elect a Government, and we expect them to take action on our behalf.”
“I am more interested, actually, in looking at the number of people in the civil service. There was a low point during the Blair years, but I am sorry to report that under the last Conservative Government and in the time that this Government have been in office, the number of civil servants has continued to increase exponentially. We are talking about between 100,000 and 200,000 more civil servants since the Brexit referendum. The size of the state, the Government and the civil service are important issues, and they are fundamental to this, but my Bill focuses on trying to ensure that the officials who are paid handsomely by the taxpayer are more accountable than they have been to this House and the Government.”
“It was an embarrassment to the Conservative Government—the coalition Government—that they could be asked questions by MPs on the sort of subject I have just raised, yet what more important role is there for an MP than trying to drive through these bureaucratic blocks and deliver what our constituents are expecting?”
“I have sent an email and left phone messages with both the social worker and the organisation, and my secretary is busy phoning today to try to get a response. No response is forthcoming from NHS Dorset, and in my view, that is unacceptable. That is just a small example of the problem, which I hope will be properly addressed by bringing NHS England back under direct control of the Government. It would mean, for example, that I would be able to put down questions about this matter—I could try to table an urgent question for the Minister. That direct accountability is, I think, what Lord Lansley was trying to avoid when he was Secretary of State.”
“I welcome that decision; as I said earlier, I have a constituency concern about the way in which NHS England’s outpost in Dorset, NHS Dorset, lacks responsiveness to Members of Parliament. To give the House a topical example from this week—indeed, it is still going on—the continuing healthcare department at NHS Dorset has failed over many months to sort out an issue relating to a quadriplegic who is one of my constituents. He has now moved into a different residential care home, and his social worker is from the NHS continuing healthcare team. As we speak, he is threatened with losing his mobility vehicle this very weekend because of the NHS’s inability to deal with the Department for Work and Pensions and sort the matter out. This very week, my constituent’s mother wrote to me, and I immediately tried to contact NHS Dorset.”
“What is important is that these arm’s length bodies are not able to go on a frolic of their own and ignore the wishes of the people’s representatives. As such, my Bill attempts to remedy that accountability gap. As has been said, the most direct way of doing that is to abolish the arm’s length bodies altogether. Currently, the Government are indeed legislating to abolish one arm’s length body through the Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education (Transfer of Functions etc) Bill. I was chairing that Bill’s Committee stage yesterday, so I will not comment on its merits or otherwise, but its proposals are dwarfed by the announcement of the abolition of NHS England.”
“I do not think my Bill would make any of that harder. What I am saying is that if the Government wish to abolish these arm’s length bodies, or some of them, and to create a more direct relationship between the activities of those bodies when they are under direct Government control and this House, I welcome that. I have already made that clear. However, the Government have already shown that they are intent on increasing the number of arm’s length bodies. Later, I was going to come on to what I regard as an egregious example of giving substantial new powers to an arm’s length body—namely the powers for Natural England set out in the Planning and Infrastructure Bill that was published earlier this week. I will come on to that in due course.”
“I hear the hon. Gentleman’s cautionary tale, and I am not suggesting that anything will be a panacea. My Bill is just a tentative step to try to introduce a little more accountability.”
“That is intolerable, because it can take more than a year for someone to have their claim dismissed. They then get a mandatory reversal and need to go to tribunal. After three years, someone’s right to litigate on this subject is taken away by the limitation period. That is an example of what happens when Departments and arm’s length bodies start taking over and being thoroughly incompetent.”
“The NHSBSA is responsible for organising and running that scheme, yet progress in dealing with applications is desperately slow. As at last November, it had more than 17,000 claims relating to covid-19 vaccines, but of those, more than 7,000 were awaiting resolution, and some had been waiting more than 18 months to be resolved. Once a claim has been rejected, as it often is, the claimant has an opportunity to go for a mandatory reversal application before they can get access to a tribunal. Dissatisfied claimants can go for the mandatory reversal, but the NHSBSA can hold up that process. As at 27 February this year, 1,657 rejected claims had been subject to mandatory reversal. Some 600 of those are outstanding, and 81 have been outstanding for more than a year.”
“I take that as an example of the Member of Parliament being fobbed off by officialdom for having the temerity to raise an important issue on behalf of his constituents. I could go on with many other examples from NHS, but I will not do that. Instead, I will see whether, through this debate, I can encourage the Government to go further than just abolishing NHS England. I have had many dealings with the NHS Business Services Authority, another arm’s length body, apparently controlled by the Department of Health and Social Care, but essentially a law unto itself. I have been in dealings with the NHSBSA on a number of different subjects, but particularly on the subject of the access and treatment of people who suffered vaccine damage and have applied for vaccine damage payments.”
“The letter cites my question, which I first raised back in November, as: “Concern over the ‘unacceptably long waiting list for dermatology services. What is being done to address this issue by the Integrated Care Board?’” The answer given is: “As part of a Commissioning for Sustainability programme, Dermatology is one of the services that is being focussed on. The aim of the programme is to recover services to the 18-week standard target, whilst maintaining sustainability. As part of this we are currently reviewing how the commissioning and delivery of services can best achieve this.” That is after more than four months. There is no suggestion of when the review started, when it is likely to end or what will happen.”
“Absolutely; that is why, although the term “independent” sounds seductive to people outside, it quite often means a lack of control by elected representatives over the body in question. I am not going to spend all my time talking about NHS Dorset, but I must offer one other illustration of my concerns. I have a letter here from the chief executive of NHS Dorset, who I think receives a lot more remuneration than even the Prime Minister. I wrote to her in November, and she wrote back at the end of January about an issue relating to dermatology services in Dorset. I wrote back to her saying, “What is being done to address this issue? You haven’t answered that in your letter.” It took until 5 March, with further queries following up on it, for me to receive an answer.”
“I was probably in one of my less rebellious periods at that stage, but the hon. Gentleman is right to chide me, because I think it was a big mistake.”
“The Government guidance is that these arm’s length bodies should produce their report and accounts within three months of the end of the financial year.”
“I am not insisting that anybody should pay attention to what I am saying. All I am putting forward is a proposition that these arm’s length bodies, of which there are far too many, should be brought to account more than they are at the moment. I have just given an example of the NHS Business Services Authority. Another example is Natural England. One of the means by which arm’s length bodies are meant to be accountable to Parliament is through the publication of annual reports, with accounts. If one looks at the situation with Natural England, it has not produced an annual report and accounts for the year ending 31 March 2024. The last accounts it produced were in December 2023 for the financial year ending 31 March 2023. That is unacceptable.”
“The first time I went along to the Department with him, he was sitting there with his private secretary and we were meant to have officials from Natural England and the Environment Agency with us online on Zoom—I do not know whether they were working from home—but nothing happened. At the last minute, there was a message saying that they could not attend. I said to the Minister that he should get heavy with them, because this was intolerable. It was another month or six weeks before we had an in-person meeting with them. I wish that I could say to the hon. Member for Hyndburn (Sarah Smith) that, as a result of all that, the issues have been resolved, but they have not. I have got a meeting with Natural England on site on 1 April in the Avon valley in my constituency. All is not well with these arm’s length bodies.”
“The Environment Agency as an arm’s length body is found wanting in many respects, not least that it argues that it has a lack of resource to introduce the necessary prosecutions and enforcement of the regulations that it is meant to be in charge of. Just to illustrate that point—this also relates to Natural England, actually—towards the end of the last Parliament, I arranged with the then Minister at the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs to have a meeting in his office with officials from Natural England and the Environment Agency to discuss the state of the Avon valley: the river, the nitrates and phosphates problems, and the break in the Avon valley footpath, which crosses the River Avon in my constituency but, as a result of neglect, is no longer viable. The Minister set up the meeting in his Department.”
“That is the difference between the words and the reality. Strictly speaking—I was coming on to this—they have to produce annual reports and accounts, which go to what are described as their sponsoring Departments. In most cases, the sponsoring Department lays those accounts before the House. With Natural England, for example, we do not know what has been going on since 31 March 2023, so it is accountable, but not in what I would describe as a meaningful sense such that we can ask specific questions.”
“The Bill goes on to say: “If the House of Commons does not approve a motion under subsection (1), the relevant document shall stand referred to the Committee of Public Accounts.” It seems to me that the best body that we have in the House to deal with this sort of situation would be the Public Accounts Committee, so there would be an automatic referral to that Committee if the Members of this House decided that they were dissatisfied with the performance of the relevant arm’s length body.”
“My hon. Friend takes me back to the content of my Bill, which seeks to achieve exactly what she requests. Clause 1 states: “House of Commons approval of relevant documents (1) Within a period of forty days starting on the day on which a relevant document is laid before the House of Commons by, or on behalf of, a qualifying body, a Minister of the Crown must move a motion that the House of Commons approves the relevant document.” That means that we, in the House, would be able to decide whether we approved that document.”
“The Government need to take these powers back into the Department, rather than, as set out in the Planning and Infrastructure Bill, give even more power to Natural England, which is an unelected and scarcely accountable quango.”
“Although the site was only three miles from the coast, they wanted to build that new infrastructure, but Natural England sat on the responsibility of advising on the project and refused to take action. I kept asking the planning inspector what we could do about that, and the answer was nothing. We had to wait until Natural England got round to deciding what it was going to do, if anything, which added months. There is a development site in the middle of Christchurch, a former police station. As a result of Natural England’s faffing about over phosphates, the cost of developing the site has increased by over £3 million, and there is a significant delay of probably two years or more.”
“Instead of abolishing Natural England, which might have been the right approach following the Prime Minister’s abolition of NHS England, so that the relevant responsibilities could be taken on by the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs directly, clauses 48 to 78 of the Planning and Infrastructure Bill give Natural England, an unelected, arm’s length body, responsibility for environmental delivery plans, the administration and control of the nature restoration levy, and a whole lot of other responsibilities, which would be better suited to the Government so that there is more direct accountability. I can see why the Government are frustrated at the delays by Natural England. I have experienced that in my own constituency, where there was a ridiculous attempt by somebody to try to build a new open-air surfing lake.”
“I am not going to give way any more, but I will just make this comment: the hon. Gentleman seems to be intent on finding a reason for not taking action in this area and to block progress. May I suggest that he pursue an alternative career in the civil service, because that is exactly the sort of role that he would be well suited to? The Planning and Infrastructure Bill was published this week. It gives extensive and revised powers to Natural England, which has not even produced its annual report for last year.”